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SWR Productions Forum _ ShockWave _ Shockwave PvP & Balance Thread

Posted by: Marakar 17 Mar 2016, 15:40

Have you wanted to discuss Shockwave PvP issues with the team? Is there some sort of game-breaking issue you would like to report but don't know where to report it? This is the place.

With agreement on the idea of this thread, I have decided to take the liberty of creating a thread that discusses PvP balance issues. As some of you may or may not, with every Mod comes the possibility of imbalances within the gameplay, and as seen around the community, we have players who are keen to solving these issues but haven't really gotten the chance to explain the problem in-depth in the correct forum. With the creation of this thread, this will allow all players to report any PvP imbalances in this thread, as long as they are reasonable and follow the guidelines below.

The main goals of this thread is:

- To address issues of PvP imbalance, and understanding what is the root of the problem.
- Looking into possible solutions in order to resolve PvP imbalance issues.

If there is a PvP imbalance issue of some sort that you have found, then replying in this thread in the following format and I will update the main list in order to display it. The following would be optimally included in these PvP balance issue posts:

- Stating the problem (Is the problem a specific unit? Listing the important stats of the unit may help such as cost)
- Looking into how the problem is countered possibly (does it force a very specific play style? Is it uncounterable vs specific factions?)
- Providing replays of the problem (if possible, but it may help)
- Looking into possible solutions of the problem (Nerfs/Buffs to build time, build cost, damage output, etc.)
- Any other information that you feel may be important to mention.

In practice, it would look something like this optimally:




(UNIT NAME)

(Problem with the unit explained, the more relevant details the easier it is to look into.)

(Possible proposed solution if you can think of any such as damage nerf, cost increase, etc. Just a general idea.)

(Evidence to support claim if possible, may be obvious within some units but if it is not a common issue mentioned then it would definitely help.)



If the post gets looked into, the response may look something like this:




RESULTS (Of testing multiple PvP games.)

(Conclusion of the problem, answering whether the unit is underpowered/overpowered and just wrapping up the problem with a statement to close the case.)



This is a general idea of what sorts of things should be discussed in these posts, and aren't the exact guidelines. This sort of information is just ways that it may help the Shockwave Team understand the problem clearly, as certain details are important. If you feel as though there is a better way to explain the problem, then feel free to do it that way (as long as we can understand it and there is some sort of explanation, it should work).


LIST OF FACTIONS & PVP PROBLEMS

USA VANILLA

USA AIRFORCE

USA LASER

USA SUPER WEAPON

USA ARMOR

CHINA VANILLA

CHINA TANK

CHINA INFANTRY

CHINA NUKE

CHINA SPECIAL WEAPONS

GLA VANILLA

GLA TOXIN

GLA STEALTH

GLA DEMO

Demo Marauder:

QUOTE (Squak)
Having a calliope on the back of the tank, the Demo Marauder is deemed to be a unit that is in heavy need of a nerf. With the ability to fire rockets in order to counter infantry, making it a prominent force within GLA mirrors as well as the ability to destroy China Factions as a single Dragon Tank that gets caught skyrockets the power of the Demo Marauder (Scrap 1 provides a 2nd barrel, Scrap 2 doubles the damage of each rocket from the calliope). As Battle tanks from China such as Battlemasters are simply inefficient at killing the Marauder due to being able to solo it, the Tank General in particular suffers way too much from the Marauder as the tank can simply outmaneuver the Elite Battlemasters or Warmasters after firing its barrage of rockets. Due note that Infantry as a counter is out of the picture, as rocket troops will simply get eradicated by the calliope. This also means that listening outposts fighting against salvaged marauders have minimal chance of victory, even if the marauder is just scrap 1. The marauder countering a Dragon Tank is fine, but the main problem is how it is able to not only snowball so quickly in terms of strength with salvage but also how much of a force it is to reckon as the base unit itself without salvage.



GLA SALVAGE

Posted by: SqUak 18 Mar 2016, 13:39

MARAUDERS

Posted by: The_Hunter 18 Mar 2016, 14:09

QUOTE (SqUak @ 18 Mar 2016, 13:39) *
MARAUDERS



Thank you for that very well informed piece of feedback it really shows an in-depth explanation on why we should be making some amendments duh2.png

Posted by: SqUak 18 Mar 2016, 14:29

QUOTE (The_Hunter @ 18 Mar 2016, 15:09) *
Thank you for that very well informed piece of feedback it really shows an in-depth explanation on why we should be making some amendments duh2.png

lol. sorry
alright about marauders, and note that i am talking about salvage, toxin, and demo marauders only. gla vanilla marauders are fine
first of all they ruin gla mirrors. gla mirrors early and mid game are now about spamming marauders only. since toxin and demo marauder can counter rocket troops. with the stuff they fire from their back. salvage needs a couple quads which kinda balances it out in salvage vs toxin, demo
secondly they go too hard on china, especially when they're scrapped.
you see gla has been stronger than china since zero hour 1.0. and now with marauders being a better tank than battlemasters, and a tank that can efficiently counter outposts, china has a very very hard time playing vs tox, demo, salvage. all it takes for china to guarantee his loss is sending one flamer that's gonna get killed and let a marauder scrap up.
and yea note that rockets in shockwave deal less damage to tanks. in your face china players.

Posted by: The_Hunter 18 Mar 2016, 14:36

That's better and something we can actually do something with.

Posted by: Marakar 18 Mar 2016, 14:58

Adding Demo Marauder, Salvage Marauder and Toxin Marauder to the list. Thank you for the contribution.

Posted by: SqUak 22 Mar 2016, 7:02

WOAH. wow
forget about marauders.
i was playing vs someone, he was swg. and guess what happened ! ENFORCER !
can't believe you guys made me lose in shockwave. i never lose in shockwave. yea i lose a couple games when i'm not serious and playing around.
but no, i was dead serious and i lost. that means something is massively broken, and yea it's the enforcer.
so after he used it on me i have done some testing and NO. they are straight out broken.
they've got massive range and massive damage, yea they are glass cannons. but they are a glass cannon that can outrange almost anything. they are fast, agile, and with search and destroy they can almost outrange buggies. would you guys please do some testing on this ?
i mean come on. how come no one noticed this ? all you gotta do is mix in an avenger or 2 if your vs china to watch out for migs, and vs gla just spam them, and control them just like you're controlling humvees. you can't lose when you do that. how didn't any of the testers mention this ?
excuse me, i know this post is way too delayed, but yesterday was the first time i saw them in a game.

Posted by: Zeke 22 Mar 2016, 7:10

QUOTE (SqUak @ 22 Mar 2016, 14:02) *
WOAH. wow
forget about marauders.
i was playing vs someone, he was swg. and guess what happened ! ENFORCER !
can't believe you guys made me lose in shockwave. i never lose in shockwave. yea i lose a couple games when i'm not serious and playing around.
but no, i was dead serious and i lost. that means something is massively broken, and yea it's the enforcer.
so after he used it on me i have done some testing and NO. they are straight out broken.
they've got massive range and massive damage, yea they are glass cannons. but they are a glass cannon that can outrange almost anything. they are fast, agile, and with search and destroy they can almost outrange buggies. would you guys please do some testing on this ?
i mean come on. how come no one noticed this ? all you gotta do is mix in an avenger or 2 if your vs china to watch out for migs, and vs gla just spam them, and control them just like you're controlling humvees. you can't lose when you do that. how didn't any of the testers mention this ?
excuse me, i know this post is way too delayed, but yesterday was the first time i saw them in a game.


Enforcers are drones, they they don't get the SnD bonus. Or at least, they're not supposed to.

Posted by: Mizo 22 Mar 2016, 7:26

Squak's Logic :

" If I win, am Pro .... pure skill! nothing broken or imba here "
" If I loose, game is broken, IMBALANCED!!!! I never loose! ASJDFHDSJHFDJS"

The only thing larger than a Chinese Overlord is your ego, holy crap dude XD

About Enforcers though : They don't benefit from Strategy Center bonus ( no SnD bonus range), They need a strategy Center to build, they need a general point unlock And they have paper armor. where they die by almost anything that blows at them. So yeah.

They are very powerful, but I wouldn't say they break the game by being imbalanced.

Posted by: Marakar 22 Mar 2016, 19:10

QUOTE (SqUak @ 22 Mar 2016, 7:02) *
WOAH. wow
forget about marauders.
i was playing vs someone, he was swg. and guess what happened ! ENFORCER !
can't believe you guys made me lose in shockwave. i never lose in shockwave. yea i lose a couple games when i'm not serious and playing around.
but no, i was dead serious and i lost. that means something is massively broken, and yea it's the enforcer.
so after he used it on me i have done some testing and NO. they are straight out broken.
they've got massive range and massive damage, yea they are glass cannons. but they are a glass cannon that can outrange almost anything. they are fast, agile, and with search and destroy they can almost outrange buggies. would you guys please do some testing on this ?
i mean come on. how come no one noticed this ? all you gotta do is mix in an avenger or 2 if your vs china to watch out for migs, and vs gla just spam them, and control them just like you're controlling humvees. you can't lose when you do that. how didn't any of the testers mention this ?
excuse me, i know this post is way too delayed, but yesterday was the first time i saw them in a game.



I am going to assume you are referring to the Enforcer Drone and not the Shatterer, as I was a bit confused at first due to the comment about SnD (drones don't benefit from SnD)

The main thing about SWG is that they are the general that are targeted to benefit "the most" from their tech building. One thing I will say about the Enforcer Drone is that although it is a powerful unit if used in groups to create plasma storms, one of the biggest things regarding the enforcer drone is that there are actual counters to it.

Vs GLA: Buggies. If you let your opponent get tech while you don't, you are going to suffer. This is the same case even for SnD MDvees. Scarabs for Salvage using smoke grenades can also mess up the fire of the Enforcers, and forces them to select targets which limits mobility.

Vs China: Avengers need to be in position in order to actually deter migs, which would most of the time limit the mobility of the enforcer drones. If you are ChinaV, you have access to AT Shell infernos which absolutely rip through the drones. China Tank has access to ECMs which can shut down from a far and have a small AOE, meaning grouped units can possibly get caught out and possibly even slow down the entire army on the retreat. China Inf has super lotus which can shut from a far, and also has attack outpost spam alongside the battle fortress which can absolutely rip through the drones even with PDL support thanks to Double-Barrel Tank Hunters. China Nuke has access to Nuke Cannons, Non-Tactical Nuke Mig Bomber which is potent even without the tacticals, siege cannons which can zone away the drones with force fire SSNR warheads or even catch them out while attacking a building (remember the difference between the Enforcer and a MDvee is that a MDvee can target a building and keep attacking while on the move. The Enforcer has to actually stop.)

vs USA: Individual Missile Defenders laser locking is very helpful, as well as regular MDvees as it requires 2-3 Shots with the concentrated plasma in order to take down a Enforcer, which also gives you time to evac. You also have the many powerful artillery units certain generals have such as Laser Gen's Railgun as well as King Raptors from AFG, and even Sheridan's with the Anti-Tank Rocket Upgrade are helpful.

Yes, Enforcers are a powerful GP unlock unit, but they aren't exactly borderline broken. I would suggest providing a replay if possible, as i'm not exactly sure what the case is. Remember that SWG has the most powerful tech roster and is intended, so having certain powerful units makes sense. Even then, if Player A does have tech while Player B doesn't, then Player A of course will have the advantage. One thing I will also mention as well is that the cost of Enforcer Drones are not cheap (1.3k, around that range), which makes them a bit of a hefty investment. They also have the same damage as the old Enforcer Tank, but just lost the ability to gain vet as well as benefit from Strategy Center battle plans alongside the other unit modifications (these are the main ones, however).

Edit: Are there any suggestions in order to help solve the issue of enforcers if you have any ideas on solutions if they do require a nerf of some sort?

Posted by: SqUak 22 Mar 2016, 19:45

QUOTE (Mizo @ 22 Mar 2016, 8:26) *
Squak's Logic :

" If I win, am Pro .... pure skill! nothing broken or imba here "
" If I loose, game is broken, IMBALANCED!!!! I never loose! ASJDFHDSJHFDJS"

The only thing larger than a Chinese Overlord is your ego, holy crap dude XD

About Enforcers though : They don't benefit from Strategy Center bonus ( no SnD bonus range), They need a strategy Center to build, they need a general point unlock And they have paper armor. where they die by almost anything that blows at them. So yeah.

They are very powerful, but I wouldn't say they break the game by being imbalanced.

lol. sorry guys, the guy i played vs used them on me when he had bombardment, and they had massive range so i was scared what would they able to do if he had search and destroy. but since they don't benefit from search and destroy they're fine.

Posted by: The-One 23 Mar 2016, 16:54

I got this wrong the last 2 times, so I am trying again, please excuse mistakes (no suggestions).

1. I think Super Weapon Humvees are too expensive, making it unfair for the army, especially having to purchase the upgrade for each Humvee separately,Humvee cost should be reduced or one upgrade to be purchased from the War Factory like the TOW missile, then it would even it out for all the USA, otherwise Super Weapon still has the disadvantage of expensive Humvees.

2. Armour Burton was already fearsome, but the new update makes it over powered? shooting through elevated terrain, that was the only way to get away from him, he was equal without it. Instant hit also seems a bit over powered now?

(Hope I got it right this time).

The-One

Posted by: GeneralCamo 24 Mar 2016, 0:13

Superweapon is designed to be a faction that scales up over time. If she was powerful at the start, she would be unstoppable.

Armor Burton was given those abilities as the engine often bugs out regarding elevated terrain.

Posted by: nikitazero678 25 Mar 2016, 14:51

I have a suggestion on balancing USA Particle Cannon and its variants to make Alexander and Townes' superweapons have clear differences to the vanilla USA's like Thrax's and Juhziz's SCUD Storm:

- Particle Cannon's duration should be reduced to 10 seconds.
- Advanced Particle Cannon should deal 25% more damage than the standard Particle Cannon.
- Laser Cannon should deal 25% less damage but lasts 50% longer (15 seconds) than the standard Particle Cannon.

Posted by: GeneralCamo 25 Mar 2016, 23:28

QUOTE (nikitazero678 @ 25 Mar 2016, 9:51) *
I have a suggestion on balancing USA Particle Cannon and its variants to make Alexander and Townes' superweapons have clear differences to the vanilla USA's like Thrax's and Juhziz's SCUD Storm:

- Particle Cannon's duration should be reduced to 10 seconds.
- Advanced Particle Cannon should deal 25% more damage than the standard Particle Cannon.
- Laser Cannon should deal 25% less damage but lasts 50% longer (15 seconds) than the standard Particle Cannon.

First off: This is pretty much already a thing.

Second off: These aren't imbalanced in their current state. Will not be considered.

Posted by: JohnJohn 26 Apr 2016, 6:21

QUOTE (SqUak @ 18 Mar 2016, 8:29) *
lol. sorry
alright about marauders, and note that i am talking about salvage, toxin, and demo marauders only. gla vanilla marauders are fine
first of all they ruin gla mirrors. gla mirrors early and mid game are now about spamming marauders only. since toxin and demo marauder can counter rocket troops. with the stuff they fire from their back. salvage needs a couple quads which kinda balances it out in salvage vs toxin, demo
secondly they go too hard on china, especially when they're scrapped.
you see gla has been stronger than china since zero hour 1.0. and now with marauders being a better tank than battlemasters, and a tank that can efficiently counter outposts, china has a very very hard time playing vs tox, demo, salvage. all it takes for china to guarantee his loss is sending one flamer that's gonna get killed and let a marauder scrap up.
and yea note that rockets in shockwave deal less damage to tanks. in your face china players.


Marauders are fine as is. Of course some versions of them are stronger than others at different things, that's all part of faction diversity. I'm all for balance but with 15 factions and subfactions; shockwave overall is pretty balanced all things considered. At this point all that really needs to be done is bug fixes and very very minor balancing if any at all.

In most mods that accept feedback I notice that there are always those who want to over balance things on a whim. But part of having different factions is accepting that not all units and their equivalents in other factions will be perfect matches. The sides are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses that players can choose from as suits their style. Trying to arbitrarily make things equal just dulls the overall experience.

So I say leave things be.

Posted by: ZunZero97 4 Jul 2016, 3:47

hi, i havent see shockwave before, so your mod shockwave has my favorite since 0.95 i think, an was my best mod ive played so thank you for adding swr to play pvp games, im very grateful.

pvp matches are fine so doesnt need to change units properties. blush.gif

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