Alex aurora Options

[Frostyarmy]

k , and you have 1 year of pure Multiplayer experience.
im pretty sure i know what im talking about....

also since the JK does kill the driver is the tank still technicaly a Threat? No.

This post has been edited by Zhao: 7 Nov 2009, 14:29

[Alias]

I've said before, why are we even bothering to talk about this when we don't know what the actual changes are.
It has been changed, and until we actually know what the changes are exactly it is utterly pointless to continue this conversation.

I have ~3 years multiplayer experience, Zhao, but that certainly doesn't make my opinion the definite one.

[Frostyarmy]

Fine , change your playing style is all i can say , Defenses are not everything.

This post has been edited by Zhao: 7 Nov 2009, 14:38

[ShEsHy]

k , and you have 1 year of pure Multiplayer experience.
im pretty sure i know what im talking about....

also since the JK does kill the driver is the tank still technicaly a Threat? No.

Who said that I have just 1 year of multiplayer experience? Don't presume things you know nothing about.

Technically it is a threat, since it can be occupied by your enemy and used against you. And for the record, every player should consider an empty tank a threat until it is either occupied by their forces or destroyed.

I've said before, why are we even bothering to talk about this when we don't know what the actual changes are.
It has been changed, and until we actually know what the changes are exactly it is utterly pointless to continue this conversation.

I have ~3 years multiplayer experience, Zhao, but that certainly doesn't make my opinion the definite one.

We are discussing it since there is no definitive date on when 0.96 comes out, and therefore 0.951 is the current version.
This isn't a discussion about the Aurora Alpha in 0.96, but in 0.951 and is therefore not pointless.

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 14:39

[Alias]

But your point is in 0.951 that it sucks, right?
To correct that, the next version is modified, right?

So your argument to 'fix it' is moot considering it has already been fixed.

[ShEsHy]

Yes.
Yes, and as you've said, we do not know in what way.

No, it's not, since noone knows if it has indeed been "fixed", but like you wrote, it was modified and the only modification I found in these forums was that it will be able to gain veterancy once again, but that in my opinion will be pointless since most of the times it will die before gaining it's first rank.

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 14:44

[Stubbjax]

The Alpha Aurora in Zero Hour is overpowered. The Alpha Aurora in Shockwave is underpowered.

In Zero Hour, it's pretty much a case of:
$2500 - take out any defence/unit/power
$5000 - take out any building
$7500 - take out any super weapon

In Shockwave, it's more like:
$5000 - take out defence/unit/power
$10000 - take out any building
$20000 - take out a super weapon

It's a bit expensive in Shockwave don't you think? I just felt like posting some random statistical-like information. Sorry if it's slightly inaccurate or completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[JJ]

I know the internals, and it's most certainly fixed. Still, it's an interesting topic to talk about, no harm continuing eh?

i Still find that alpha aurora extremely useful , i have no clue why you say it doesn't

It takes two to kill anything anything above the Scorpion, and AA kills it pretty damn easily. Raptors work much better as of now. The only real strength it has is against infantry, but a smart Fai player won't leave his infantry just walking around.

Its the reason it takes 2 king raptors to kill a gatting tank
2400$ to take down a 800$ unit

KRs are pre-tech, Aurora Alphas are highly inaccessible. Makes sense to make Aurora Alpha at least better than KRs at that.

As for the spoiler, everything can be covered by something, so posting that is like saying; a ranger can't destroy an entire enemy base, but that can be covered by Nukes, SCUDs and Ion Cannons... meaningless.

I agree with you there.

k , and you have 1 year of pure Multiplayer experience.

Years don't indicate anything. Erik started playing later than me, but he is definitely better than me.

also since the JK does kill the driver is the tank still technicaly a Threat? No.

It is, leaving an empty Emperor around at the battlefield is stupid. It is less of a threat compared to a moving attacking Emperor, but still, it is a threat.

And using Aurora Alphas doesn't have to make the player a turtler. It is a useful unit to clear the path for your forces (that is, ignoring its current weakness). Auroras are seen as a turtler's tool because its the easiest way to kill stuff available to them, while an aggressive player has much better alternatives.

[ShEsHy]

The Alpha Aurora in Zero Hour is overpowered. The Alpha Aurora in Shockwave is underpowered.

In Zero Hour, it's pretty much a case of:
$2500 - take out any defence/unit/power
$5000 - take out any building
$7500 - take out any super weapon

In Shockwave, it's more like:
$5000 - take out defence/unit/power
$10000 - take out any building
$20000 - take out a super weapon

It's a bit expensive in Shockwave don't you think? I just felt like posting some random statistical-like information. Sorry if it's slightly inaccurate or completely irrelevant to the discussion.

You are pretty much spot on, but you have ot consider that most of the times, the Auroras are sent on a one way trip. So for every superweapon destroyed it's 20k down the drain, any building it's 10k own the drain,..., basically, if your target has at least 1 or 2 AA units/buildings, nothing will return.

And, well, to JJ, it's nice to see someone agreeing with my POV once in a blue moon .

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 14:59

[Alias]

No, it's not, since noone knows if it has indeed been "fixed", but like you wrote, it was modified and the only modification I found in these forums was that it will be able to gain veterancy once again, but that in my opinion will be pointless since most of the times it will die before gaining it's first rank.

While they are not going to be restored to Zero Hour defaults any time soon (read: never), you will be pleased to hear that in ShockWave 0.96 Alpha Auroras will once again be able to gain veterency and inflict considerably more damage.

I trust Stinger's judgement, he is not only one of the all-time skilled ShockWave players around, he also knows his way around code and balance.
Case closed.

This post has been edited by Murray: 7 Nov 2009, 15:02

[Erik]

1. Alphas are not meant to kill buildings.

2. Alphas can eat well rounded armies for breakfast. you can kill a group of tanks with 2 and AA with 3 of them, if the army isnt spread out.

3. If an aurora can kill a single AA unit in one shot it might aswell kill 7 due to AoE, wich would totally overpower it.

4. Its pretty useless in 1v1 for the reasons stated above, but its totally annoying in team games greater than 2v2 where one player just camps and wipes any GLA attack force with 3 of them. Dead quads dont shoot at anything. If you dont have Aircraft and any enemy has Aphas you have a damn ahrd time playing since anytime your army or at least the main part can be gone.

[ShEsHy]

I trust Stinger's judgement, he is not only one of the all-time skilled ShockWave players around, he also knows his way around code and balance.
Case closed.

Yes, but it's a bit vague, since there are 2 ways of reading that;
1. Aurora Alpha's base damage will be raised
2. It's base damage will not be changed, but the ranks will add the damage

if it's 1. then I'll be glad, but if it's 2., it will be for the most part, pointles.

1. Alphas are not meant to kill buildings.

2. Alphas can eat well rounded armies for breakfast. you can kill a group of tanks with 2 and AA with 3 of them, if the army isnt spread out.

3. If an aurora can kill a single AA unit in one shot it might aswell kill 7 due to AoE, wich would totally overpower it.

4. Its pretty useless in 1v1 for the reasons stated above, but its totally annoying in team games greater than 2v2 where one player just camps and wipes any GLA attack force with 3 of them. Dead quads dont shoot at anything. If you dont have Aircraft and any enemy has Aphas you have a damn ahrd time playing since anytime your army or at least the main part can be gone.

You are correct, but let's say you kill 7 AAs with 3 Auroras, but there is 1 AA a bit out of the AoE and it takes them all out, then what? You still lost, since 3 Auroras cost more than 7 AAs (unless you mean Avengers). And to kill 7 armored vehicles with one drop is a bit much, they would all have to be parked right next to each other.

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 15:14

[JJ]

Both, Aurora Alphas are dealt with already by the balance team, which is quite good at what they do.

1. Alphas are not meant to kill buildings.

Yea, though it would be nice for it to be able to.

2. Alphas can eat well rounded armies for breakfast. you can kill a group of tanks with 2 and AA with 3 of them, if the army isnt spread out.

3. If an aurora can kill a single AA unit in one shot it might aswell kill 7 due to AoE, wich would totally overpower it.

Eh, the AoE makes it a little troublesome to balance well. I think dealing more damage at the center of the blast might fix it, so one unit gets destroyed while the others are dealt the same damage as before.

4. Its pretty useless in 1v1 for the reasons stated above, but its totally annoying in team games greater than 2v2 where one player just camps and wipes any GLA attack force with 3 of them. Dead quads dont shoot at anything. If you dont have Aircraft and any enemy has Aphas you have a damn ahrd time playing since anytime your army or at least the main part can be gone.

Yea, quite annoying, but still, it's only in a team game. Would be great if it could be balanced for 1v1 and still not overpower team games.

[Chyros]

I dislike the last sentence Chyros. Apart from that, General Alexander has always been a General who builds bunkers and fires Super Weapons from them - it even stands in the manual for Z:H. If ShW goes into another direction, fine, but taking away turtling completely is a step in the wrong direction.

According to Stinger, you should not be able to turtle.

I suppose you're talking about Aurora Aplha here, not Anti Air? If what you're saying is true, then where's the logic in a Gatling Tank having more armor than a Battlemaster (at least when it comes to Aurora Alpha's attacking them)?

Tanks have TankArmor, anti-air vehicles have AntiAirVehicle. Airborne weaponry often uses damage types like JET_MISSILES to which tanks are very vulnerable, but to which anti-air units have an inherent resistance to allow them to deal with air units effectively.

Then name an "armored" vehicle with weaker armor.

Depends on what it should be weaker against. Humvees are relatively resistant to most things, though.

Not if the infantry is moving, then it will miss.

If the infantry is moving, it won't fire, and if they're close enough, they will hit anyway.

For example? Which of the SW Gen's units can defend against infantry but are not in vUSA or are in it, but noticably weaker?

You never said anything about not being in vUSA. The USA's Pathfinder and microwave tank (in her case: humvee) are very powerful against infantry though, and flashbang rangers/marines do very well too. Same goes for Alexander, so I don't see why you'd say she has bad anti-infantry capabilities.

The same damage is possible, but not more.

Well then it's not "weaker", is it?

Never noticed any other differences, would you mind explaining them?

She has access to the very powerful Marine, and she can buy Combat Armour which is an exclusive upgrade. By the way, her infantry is of course also a lot more powerful than that of any non-USA faction, because USA infantry are the best, and she has access to USA upgrades such as Veterancy, Chem Suits, Flash Bangs, Battle Plans etc.

No, it's useful for destroying low-armored units and infantry, since anything that can shoot up in the air, even if it's not primarily Anti-Air will kil it, since the Aurora won't destroy it in 1 or 2 hits.

Like I said, anti-air vehicles aren't low-armoured against air units. Tanks are.

Yea, I've pretty much guessed that turtling isn't wanted in ShockWave, but as long as I've got EMP Patriots, I'll manage somehow .

We'll see ;p .

On a side note, will the Armor, Special Weapon and Salvage General's AI be included in 0.96?

Yes.

[ShEsHy]

Tanks have TankArmor, anti-air vehicles have AntiAirVehicle. Airborne weaponry often uses damage types like JET_MISSILES to which tanks are very vulnerable, but to which anti-air units have an inherent resistance to allow them to deal with air units effectively.


Depends on what it should be weaker against. Humvees are relatively resistant to most things, though.


If the infantry is moving, it won't fire, and if they're close enough, they will hit anyway.


You never said anything about not being in vUSA. The USA's Pathfinder and microwave tank (in her case: humvee) are very powerful against infantry though, and flashbang rangers/marines do very well too. Same goes for Alexander, so I don't see why you'd say she has bad anti-infantry capabilities.


Well then it's not "weaker", is it?


She has access to the very powerful Marine, and she can buy Combat Armour which is an exclusive upgrade. By the way, her infantry is of course also a lot more powerful than that of any non-USA faction, because USA infantry are the best, and she has access to USA upgrades such as Veterancy, Chem Suits, Flash Bangs, Battle Plans etc.


Like I said, anti-air vehicles aren't low-armoured against air units. Tanks are.


We'll see ;p .


Yes.

I could go into Aurora Alpha's having Fuel bombs and not missiles, but that would just be petty, so, you are correct.

By weaker I meant anything that would die faster from the same weapon type.

So, the String is better for infantry than the Blob .

It makes sense that when talking about a specific General, you can't count the vanilla faction's units as an advantage.

If it's possible that it deals the same damage but impossible to deal more, then what option remains? That it deals less, I just didn't mention it, since that was my original claim .

Then her only advantage in the infantry section is the Marine and the Combat Armor Upgrade. Tnx for elaborating.

Agreed.

Oh that just sounded ominous .

Tnx for the answer, always wondered how the Armor Gen would attack.

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 16:01

[Shiro]

According to Stinger, you should not be able to turtle.

Well I do turtle against the AI because it is a good strategy to exploit its waypath system. However I do NOT turtle against human players since that has faster than I liked turned out to be ineffective. Yet, from what I read so far about speed bumps and stuff, this goes into a direction of RA3 (or so I think) which is not a good way - if that happens, all defenses can be deleted all together just as well. Ok that is again only my opinion so I will surely wait for 0.96, but I think you get the meaning

This post has been edited by KamuiK: 7 Nov 2009, 16:30

[Frostyarmy]

i use defenses as nothing more then a temporary flank coverage and stealth detection. and thats just what they do. i hope there not to nerfed as then it "MAY" be just a stealth detection thing more then anything

Just wait for .96

This post has been edited by Zhao: 7 Nov 2009, 16:51

[Chyros]

By weaker I meant anything that would die faster from the same weapon type.

But which weapon type would you be interested in?

So, the String is better for infantry than the Blob .

That wasn't the issue, but even that is disputable. If missile troops start firing at your tank, you don't want to have to move closer to be able to use the stream mode (it has shorter range). It'd be more effective to just use the ball mode without having to move closer.

It makes sense that when talking about a specific General, you can't count the vanilla faction's units as an advantage.

How is that? In fact, the vanilla factions sometimes have unique units as well, and sometimes generals are allowed to retain these units as a specific advantage (cf. Marines).

If it's possible that it deals the same damage but impossible to deal more, then what option remains? That it deals less, I just didn't mention it, since that was my original claim .

I re-looked it up just to be certain and the EMP Patriot actually deals MORE damage to air units. So let's put this rather silly issue behind us now .

Then her only advantage in the infantry section is the Marine and the Combat Armor Upgrade. Tnx for elaborating.

Yes. Giving her among the best infantry in the game.

Oh that just sounded ominous .

Oh, heheheh, don't worry that much . What I meant was that shw is taking a direction in which turtling is not supposed to be possible in PvP play. Against AIs, you'll do fine.

Tnx for the answer, always wondered how the Armor Gen would attack.

You will enjoy playing him in the next version - his AI is quite powerful .

[ShEsHy]

But which weapon type would you be interested in?

That wasn't the issue, but even that is disputable. If missile troops start firing at your tank, you don't want to have to move closer to be able to use the stream mode (it has shorter range). It'd be more effective to just use the ball mode without having to move closer.

How is that? In fact, the vanilla factions sometimes have unique units as well, and sometimes generals are allowed to retain these units as a specific advantage (cf. Marines).

I re-looked it up just to be certain and the EMP Patriot actually deals MORE damage to air units. So let's put this rather silly issue behind us now .

Yes. Giving her among the best infantry in the game.

Oh, heheheh, don't worry that much . What I meant was that shw is taking a direction in which turtling is not supposed to be possible in PvP play. Against AIs, you'll do fine.

You will enjoy playing him in the next version - his AI is quite powerful .

Doesn't really matter, be it cannon fire, machinegun, missile, laser,..., hell, slingshots if you got 'em .

It kinda is. Like with the Overlord. Why use the main cannons if you have Miniguns on it? The speed of the kill means more than the range in this matter (to me at least). And like you said, it's only more efficient if the target is far away and standing still, in any other example, the String mode is better.

Well, I've gotten used to not calling any vanilla faction's units unique, be they available in all sub-factions or none. But to each his own I guess.

Wow, didn't expect that. It does do less damage to vehicles though, right? Or am I going to have to switch to Laser General?

Hmm, now that I think about it, it does make sense to have exceptionally strong infantry, since it lacks in other departments.

Well, I don't think turtling is even possible in PvP, but if I can still turtle against 6 Hard China Tank Gen's, I'm happy .

Awesome, I've played through all avaliable AI's countless times, so it'll be great to have to rethink tactics against new opponents.


I would however like the SuperWeapon General's picture to change, even if it were to change to a nerdy scientist, because to be honest, it's kinda hard to threaten my friends during loading when the picture loading is a blond woman

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 17:19

[Shiro]

I would however like the SuperWeapon General's picture to change, even if it were to change to a nerdy scientist, because to be honest, it's kinda hard to threaten my friends during loading when the picture loading is a blond woman

A blonde woman in her early 40s having 4 stars on each of her shoulders, the command over hundrets of thousands of soldiers and the most high-tech weapons available in the entire game

[ShEsHy]

A blonde woman in her early 40s having 4 stars on each of her shoulders, the command over hundrets of thousands of soldiers and the most high-tech weapons available in the entire game

I know, not threatening at all, right?

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 17:53

[Chyros]

Doesn't really matter, be it cannon fire, machinegun, missile, laser,..., hell, slingshots if you got 'em .

No, that's kind of the problem. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the SAGE engine coding but different armour sets react differently to different weapon types. For example, tanks take full damage from ARMOR_PIERCING damage sources such as other tanks, while infantry get heavy damage reductions to those sources. Tanks however are resistant to things like POISON damage (toxins) while infantry fall by the bunches. Humvees are relatively resistant against many things but also have a few vulnerabilities. It's in fact HumveeArmor that was partially responsible for the overpoweredness of units like the Combat Buggy (this has since been fixed, albeit not by changing its armour type)

It kinda is. Like with the Overlord. Why use the main cannons if you have Miniguns on it? The speed of the kill means more than the range in this matter (to me at least). And like you said, it's only more efficient if the target is far away and standing still, in any other example, the String mode is better.

It's faster to be able to shoot a ball at full range than having to move in to use the stream mode. But like you said, that only goes against infantry at full range.

Wow, didn't expect that. It does do less damage to vehicles though, right? Or am I going to have to switch to Laser General?

No, it does do less damage against ground vehicles, that is true. It does have the advantages of the EMP effect against those, though, of course. In case yo're wondering, the EMP Patriot does 65% of the DPS of a normal Patriot in the current version .

Well, I don't think turtling is even possible in PvP, but if I can still turtle against 6 Hard China Tank Gen's, I'm happy .

You will have it slightly more difficult of course but for all intents and purposes it's just as well doable.

[Destiny]

Didn't someone discover that HumveeArmor's values were wrong or something and they actually should be able to take 18 MD hits or something a long time ago? Makes me wonder why AAlphas have trouble trying to kill them.

[Shiro]

@Chyros: apart from the fact the word 'doable' does not exist (it is 'possible') I did not know the Combat Buggy had HumveeArmor.
@Destiny: imagine a single Humvee take 18 hits of rockets while it is loaded with 5 MD's itself and then a swarm of them - OP^11.

This post has been edited by KamuiK: 7 Nov 2009, 19:42

[ShEsHy]

No, that's kind of the problem. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the SAGE engine coding but different armour sets react differently to different weapon types. For example, tanks take full damage from ARMOR_PIERCING damage sources such as other tanks, while infantry get heavy damage reductions to those sources. Tanks however are resistant to things like POISON damage (toxins) while infantry fall by the bunches. Humvees are relatively resistant against many things but also have a few vulnerabilities. It's in fact HumveeArmor that was partially responsible for the overpoweredness of units like the Combat Buggy (this has since been fixed, albeit not by changing its armour type)

It's faster to be able to shoot a ball at full range than having to move in to use the stream mode. But like you said, that only goes against infantry at full range.

No, it does do less damage against ground vehicles, that is true. It does have the advantages of the EMP effect against those, though, of course. In case yo're wondering, the EMP Patriot does 65% of the DPS of a normal Patriot in the current version .

You will have it slightly more difficult of course but for all intents and purposes it's just as well doable.

I didn't mean it's resistance, I simply meant how long it would last against an enemy (ie. it could take 3 hits from a Paladin Tank, but the Shaterer could take 4. Just an example ).

Yuppers.

Thought so, but didn't imagine the difference would be so great. Nevertheless, an EMP defense structure is awesome by all standards (except infantry) .

Great, just as long as the tanks don't get stuck midway to my base and start lagging the game up.

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 19:55