Alex aurora Options

[Chyros]

Didn't someone discover that HumveeArmor's values were wrong or something and they actually should be able to take 18 MD hits or something a long time ago? Makes me wonder why AAlphas have trouble trying to kill them.

The Aurora Alpha's explosion uses the JET_MISSILES damage type currently and Humvees have 70% resistance to this type of weapon, hence why they are tougher to kill with AAlpha's. On the subject of the Aurora Alpha I must stress that it's been changed quite a lot internally.

@Chyros: apart from the fact the word 'doable' does not exist (it is 'possible')

Consider it a useful anthimeria then . But thanks for pointing it out nonetheless.

[Alias]

@Chyros: apart from the fact the word 'doable' does not exist (it is 'possible') I did not know the Combat Buggy had HumveeArmor.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/doable

Back up your claims with facts.

This post has been edited by Murray: 7 Nov 2009, 19:56

[Shiro]

I may rephrase: not a word in the formal sense Preserving a thank you for pointing it out.
@Aurora Alpha: since when does the Aurora (Alpha) use JET_MISSILES at its weapon type?

[Frostyarmy]

As i have repeated befre the american mdvee is not OP , theres so many counters to it.

EDIT : internet is being laggy. i hate my aunt nets D;

This post has been edited by Zhao: 7 Nov 2009, 20:36

[Alias]

Alpha Auroras have used JET_MISSILE for quite a while now, I can't remember the exact reason now but I'm pretty sure it was something to do in nerfing it in relation to AA units, considering JET_MISSILE does pitiful damage to AA unit armour.

[Frostyarmy]

why not , ALPHA_BOMB that doesnt make sense to me

This post has been edited by Zhao: 7 Nov 2009, 20:38

[ShEsHy]

why not , ALPHA_BOMB that doesnt make sense to me

It is quite weird, isn't it? If it uses JET_MISSILE, then why is it a bomber, why not just make it a fighter like the Raptor and use actual missiles?
In my understanding the whole point of the Aurora Alpha was to be a smaller version of the Fuel Air Bomb, and as such should be strong vs. everything, and more expensive than any other aircraft. Now, IIRC it is the most expensive aircraft ingame, but definitly not the most powerful one.

If I'm not mistaken it's pros and cons in 0.951 are:
+ 100% that it willl reach it's target due to it's speed
+ AoE
+ Strong vs. infantry
- Price
- Late-game unit
- Requires 1 General's point
- Extremely weak as a late-game unit vs. any building and anti-air vehicle (the Armor Gen's late-game bomber is approx. twice as powerful against buildings, don't know about anti-air vehicles, and costs 1800 as compared to Aurora Alpha's 2500 and doesn't require a General's point)
- Very slow after dropping it's bomb
- Extremely low armor/HP
-/+ Mediocre vs. tanks

These are all I can think of at the moment and they don't even come close to being balanced.

The original was overpowered when it came to attack damage, but nothing more... An aircraft that dealt serious damage to everything but was very expensive and almost never survived to return to base. Now it costs more, needs a General's point and is much weaker. This is more than just nerfing it, it's downright kicking it in the b****.

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 7 Nov 2009, 22:19

[Frostyarmy]

I dont see why they made it a Gen point.

[Shiro]

ROTR Old did, and SWR addapted it, mainly to make the Nighthawk a genpoint free unit. The Aurora should have been the GenPoint unit since Generals on, but EA where too dumb to realize that. Though I start wondering with that discussion:
WHAT is the Aurora (Alpha) now? EA made it a bomber with 100% hit success, however highly costy and prolly without any chance for a return, except the field is empty, hence they had AURORA_BOMB as damage type which dealt 250% damage to buildings.

[Chyros]

EA made it a bomber with 100% hit success, however highly costy and prolly without any chance for a return, except the field is empty, hence they had AURORA_BOMB as damage type which dealt 250% damage to buildings.

The Aurora Alpha still uses AURORA_BOMB for its impact damage type.

However the detonation was changed to JET_MISSILES because EXPLOSION made it thrash everything, negating its weaknesses (it would destroy everything before it had a chance to even damage the Aurora). Internally it's a LOT more powerful than it is in the public version though.

[ShEsHy]

The Aurora Alpha still uses AURORA_BOMB for its impact damage type.

However the detonation was changed to JET_MISSILES because EXPLOSION made it thrash everything, negating its weaknesses (it would destroy everything before it had a chance to even damage the Aurora). Internally it's a LOT more powerful than it is in the public version though.

My point exactly. That's the point of the Aurora Alpha. The Fuel Bomb's detonation after the impact. If the Fuel Bomb is made useless, why not just take the Alpha out of the game and make the SW Gen use the normal one? It is basically the same, except for the Fuel Bomb.
If I'm correct, then the Alpha was made weaker than the normal one, at least when going against buildings and Anti Air (it's description still says that it's strong vs. buildings, btw).

[walkingGhost]

Since everyone seems happy bashing the Alpha-Aurora, I'm going to play devil's advocate...

First: If you keep loosing your Auroras, you're doing it completely wrong. They are not suited (unlike the stealth bomber) for deep strikes into enemy territory- they are best used on the foremost frontline. Just one Bomber (building them en masse is pointless) is capable of annihilating whole formations of enemy artillery (it easily kills more than it's own worth in one run), and it is virtually impossible to avoid, let alone shoot down, because it looses it's hyperspeed a short time after dropping the bomb.

If you use them carefully, you wont EVER loose one on a bombing run, while preventing your enemy from attacking with artillery- 2500$ well spent. Furthermore, having such a Bomber will force your enemy to build AA and tanks- easy pickings for your superior, guided, long-range-artillery.

Summary: Dont waste your bombers on enemy Superweapons- thats what your own array of cheap Particle-Cannons is for. Use your bombers to prevent enemy artillery attacks, to help your allies and to harass isolated ground-units every now and then. And make sure there is no enemy AA along your bombers return path! If used right, auroras can be an invaluable asset in SW's arsenal, making his defenselines nearly untouchable for enemy artillery.

PS: Agreed, paying a Gen-point for it is a bit much, but considering that
-B1
-Topol-M
-Chinas lvl 1- infantry veterancy (which i frequently take, btw)
cost a Gen-point, too, it doesnt seem THAT ridiculous.

This post has been edited by walkingGhost: 8 Nov 2009, 3:28

[Chyros]

My point exactly. That's the point of the Aurora Alpha. The Fuel Bomb's detonation after the impact. If the Fuel Bomb is made useless, why not just take the Alpha out of the game and make the SW Gen use the normal one? It is basically the same, except for the Fuel Bomb.
If I'm correct, then the Alpha was made weaker than the normal one, at least when going against buildings and Anti Air (it's description still says that it's strong vs. buildings, btw).

It was made to be stronger against (groups of) units, and to balance this out, it was made weaker against buildings.

[ShEsHy]

Since everyone seems happy bashing the Alpha-Aurora, I'm going to play devil's advocate...

Not everyone is bashing it, there are some supporters although for the death of me I do not see the reason why, unless they have a serious grudge against the SW Gen.

First: If you keep loosing your Auroras, you're doing it completely wrong. They are not suited (unlike the stealth bomber) for deep strikes into enemy territory- they are best used on the foremost frontline. Just one Bomber (building them en masse is pointless) is capable of annihilating whole formations of enemy artillery (it easily kills more than it's own worth in one run), and it is virtually impossible to avoid, let alone shoot down, because it looses it's hyperspeed a short time after dropping the bomb.

Oh, and just how many chances do you think the Stealth Bombers have of actually reaching an enemies Superweapon? Slim, since no self-respecting player (or AI) wouldn't have anti-stealth in their base. And how many would be needed to take out a Superweapon? Too many.
Anyways, who would keep artillery in tight formations? And unsupported by AA units at that?
And what happens after the bomb is dropped? Answer; it gets shredded since anything that can shoot up (apart from infantry) will survive and take it out.
Even if your claims had any merit, what you wrote was basically that the current Aurora Alpha is only useful for taking out artillery that isn't supported by AA units, which basically makes like any other bomber out there.

If you use them carefully, you wont EVER loose one on a bombing run, while preventing your enemy from attacking with artillery- 2500$ well spent. Furthermore, having such a Bomber will force your enemy to build AA and tanks- easy pickings for your superior, guided, long-range-artillery.

Wrong, just 1 AA unit can take out at least 2 Alphas (if the Alphas attacked it, if not, it could take out a lot more) and having 1 AA unit does not mean that you are forced to build them, that isn't even enough to call it a precaution. And just what player has to be forced to build tanks???
Besides, which part of this can't be fulfilled by any other aircraft? Anything flying can take out a lone artillery unit/formation, hell, even the GLA Baloons can do that.

Summary: Dont waste your bombers on enemy Superweapons- thats what your own array of cheap Particle-Cannons is for. Use your bombers to prevent enemy artillery attacks, to help your allies and to harass isolated ground-units every now and then. And make sure there is no enemy AA along your bombers return path! If used right, auroras can be an invaluable asset in SW's arsenal, making his defenselines nearly untouchable for enemy artillery.

Once again, what you wrote describes the role of every bomber, hell, even a Raptor can do that, so why pay 2500 for an Alpha?
And if you're playing with limited SWs, then what? Do you just sit and pray that your enemy will take out his own SW? Do you maybe spam infantry and try to make it to the SW hoping that none of the enemies' "forcibly" built Quads or Gatling Tanks dont get in their way and just massacre them? Or do you use your "superior, guided, long-range-artillery" to clear a path through the enemies defences, tanks, AA, infantry and aircraft and take it out, since you're assuming that artillery doesn't need AA support?
And if you're not playing with limited SWs, then the only function of your Ion Cannons is as an anti-SW weapon? Just what point is it in them being cheaper then since you need 2 to take out 1 SW?

PS: Agreed, paying a Gen-point for it is a bit much, but considering that
-B1
-Topol-M
-Chinas lvl 1- infantry veterancy (which i frequently take, btw)
cost a Gen-point, too, it doesnt seem THAT ridiculous.

I wouldn't mind paying a Generals point for it, if only it had it's intended firepower and wasn't nerfed to the point of it being a Generals point & Strategy Center needing, 2500 costing glorified weak kamikaze bomber.

It was made to be stronger against (groups of) units, and to balance this out, it was made weaker against buildings.

Correction, it was made to be weaker against groups of units, AA and buildings, basically, everything. There is no unit/building that it can take out faster now than it could in the un-modded version.


I know that my comments in this post are a bit (if not too) rude, but it's 1:30 AM here and I'm tired, so get over it. Good night.

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 8 Nov 2009, 4:30

[Chyros]

Correction, it was made to be weaker against groups of units, AA and buildings, basically, everything. There is no unit/building that it can take out faster now than it could in the un-modded version.

I don't think you will find many people who'd want it to be as powerful as the unmodded version, because it was so grossly overpowered it wasn't even funny.

[Frostyarmy]

QFT

[walkingGhost]

(1)

Oh, and just how many chances do you think the Stealth Bombers have of actually reaching an enemies Superweapon? Slim, since no self-respecting player (or AI) wouldn't have anti-stealth in their base. And how many would be needed to take out a Superweapon? Too many.

You seem to be very persistent in your belief that planes are a viable option to take out enemy superweapons in a heavily fortified base. They are not. And they have never been. Not in Generals, not in Zero Hour, and not in any other C&C game. Why, you ask? Just do the math: Superweapon: 5k. Planes: >7.5k (three ZH-Alpha auroras can take out a SW, IIRC). What I said was that you can use Stealth-Bombers for deep strikes, and I ment that you can fly with them over enemy AA without getting shot down (if there's not too much stealth-detection around).

(2)

Anyways, who would keep artillery in tight formations? And unsupported by AA units at that?

Have you *ever* seen how GLA-rocket-buggies are used? They cant be kept spread out, because that reduces their effectiveness, and requires insane microing- effort. You can easily take out 3 or even more of them in one bombing run with one Aurora, even against a capable player. Your aurora wont even get scratched. (because trying to keep quads in front of buggies is utterly hopeless if you want the buggies to keep moving).

(3)

And what happens after the bomb is dropped? Answer; it gets shredded since anything that can shoot up (apart from infantry) will survive and take it out.

This is just plain wrong. I tested it:

• An alpha- aurora actually survives a bombing run against a single AA-unit, even if the bomber is alone and the AA survives, moving directly towards his airport.
• When attacking the foremost of a group of AA-vehicles, there is a chance of about 50% for the aurora to return unscathed. That means, even if there are 1000 AA behind your target, it wont make a bloody difference!
• It has even a chance of surviving a bombing run against a veteran dual-gatling-tank (with the beetle targeting device- upgrade)- the BY FAR strongest AA unit in ShW.

Thus you CAN use your alpha- Auroras even if there IS enemy AA around; just make sure to target the closest enemy unit (or force-fire in front of the enemy formation), and your auroras WILL return.

(4)

Even if your claims had any merit, what you wrote was basically that the current Aurora Alpha is only useful for taking out artillery that isn't supported by AA units, which basically makes like any other bomber out there.

Once again, what you wrote describes the role of every bomber, hell, even a Raptor can do that, so why pay 2500 for an Alpha?

Let's consider the other bombers in SHW:
-Phoenix: Long range, support (emp-effect) only (little damage)
-Nuke/EMP- Bomber (China): early antitank, extremely vulnerable, but lethal if used right
-Other Auroras: anti-defense, anti-building (they mostly miss moving units)
Evidently, the roles of the other bombers are quite different. Also, as discussed in (3), the Aurora is capable of attacking AND returning, even if there is enemy AA around the target- if you do it right (=> target the foremost unit) even MASSIVE AA presence near your target wont be able to shoot your aurora down.

(6)

And if you're not playing with limited SWs, then the only function of your Ion Cannons is as an anti-SW weapon? Just what point is it in them being cheaper then since you need 2 to take out 1 SW?

Well, evidently the point is to destroy the enemy's superweapon, for which he paid a lot of money, without loosing anything yourself. If you think wasting >7.5k of auroras is a better idea, you *should* reconsider your tactics

(5)

And if you're playing with limited SWs, then what? Do you just sit and pray that your enemy will take out his own SW? Do you maybe spam infantry and try to make it to the SW hoping that none of the enemies' "forcibly" built Quads or Gatling Tanks dont get in their way and just massacre them? Or do you use your "superior, guided, long-range-artillery" to clear a path through the enemies defences, tanks, AA, infantry and aircraft and take it out, since you're assuming that artillery doesn't need AA support?

THIS is just a bunch of mindless babbling. I dont know what gave you the idea that i think of AA- support as useless, but for the rest: It seems to me that you believe USA:SW is incapable of defeating an enemy without relying on superweapons or overpowered Auroras. You are completely wrong. And I'm ready to prove my point: Install hamachi, meet me in "Zhaos Room 6" (no password) and I'll gladly show you what exactly I'm gonna do if you manage to build a superweapon (but not now- I have to sleep, too)

This post has been edited by walkingGhost: 8 Nov 2009, 9:43

[Shiro]

How long is this thread going? I am getting bored by huge chunks of text piles.

[ShEsHy]

(1)

You seem to be very persistent in your belief that planes are a viable option to take out enemy superweapons in a heavily fortified base. They are not. And they have never been. Not in Generals, not in Zero Hour, and not in any other C&C game. Why, you ask? Just do the math: Superweapon: 5k. Planes: >7.5k (three ZH-Alpha auroras can take out a SW, IIRC). What I said was that you can use Stealth-Bombers for deep strikes, and I ment that you can fly with them over enemy AA without getting shot down (if there's not too much stealth-detection around).

Oh, but they are. Tell me, what would you do when like you wrote, a heavily fortified enemies' SW is coming close to 0 and you're playing as a SW Gen? Wouldn't you use your only guaranteed attack on it (btw, it took 4 vanilla Alphas to take out a SW)? Who cares about the price whenit's defeat on the line. And about Using Stealth Bombers for deep strikes, sure you could use them it there were no anti-stealth, but, in SW, almost everything has anti-stealth and as soon as they're noticed, the jig is up.

(2)

Have you *ever* seen how GLA-rocket-buggies are used? They cant be kept spread out, because that reduces their effectiveness, and requires insane microing- effort. You can easily take out 3 or even more of them in one bombing run with one Aurora, even against a capable player. Your aurora wont even get scratched. (because trying to keep quads in front of buggies is utterly hopeless if you want the buggies to keep moving).

Yes, I've seen them plenty of times, and they're never in a tight formation, but in a line. And at most, an Alpha can take out 4 at once, and even that is a bit far fetched, since they'd have to be in a straight line, parked right next to each other. Why do you think the Quads would have to be in front of the Buggies to take down the Alpha after it drops? You do know that is slows down immediatly after, which means that the turn back to base is already made at it's slow speed, making it easy for a Quad behind the Buggies to destroy it, right?

(3)

This is just plain wrong. I tested it:

• An alpha- aurora actually survives a bombing run against a single AA-unit, even if the bomber is alone and the AA survives, moving directly towards his airport.
• When attacking the foremost of a group of AA-vehicles, there is a chance of about 50% for the aurora to return unscathed. That means, even if there are 1000 AA behind your target, it wont make a bloody difference!
• It has even a chance of surviving a bombing run against a veteran dual-gatling-tank (with the beetle targeting device- upgrade)- the BY FAR strongest AA unit in ShW.

Thus you CAN use your alpha- Auroras even if there IS enemy AA around; just make sure to target the closest enemy unit (or force-fire in front of the enemy formation), and your auroras WILL return.

Well, here are the results of my tests:

• Gatling Tank left at about 70%, Alpha at about 30%.
• 1 Alpha vs. a group of 4 Gatling Tanks, Alpha died (targeted first in the group of course), 1 Alpha vs. 2 Gatling Tanks, second one far behind the first one, Alpha survived with only about 5% HP (targeted the first one of course), in both cases, the Gatling Tanks survived.
• Don't have anybody online atm to help me test this by lvling their Dual Gatling Tank, but looking from your previous test scores, I highly doubt that it would be the same for me.

Thus you CAN'T attack any AA units unless you know that you will kill them all (at least 3 Alpha's needed), and if they're not in a tight formation, don't even try.

(4)

Let's consider the other bombers in SHW:
-Phoenix: Long range, support (emp-effect) only (little damage)
-Nuke/EMP- Bomber (China): early antitank, extremely vulnerable, but lethal if used right
-Other Auroras: anti-defense, anti-building (they mostly miss moving units)
Evidently, the roles of the other bombers are quite different. Also, as discussed in (3), the Aurora is capable of attacking AND returning, even if there is enemy AA around the target- if you do it right (=> target the foremost unit) even MASSIVE AA presence near your target wont be able to shoot your aurora down.

-The Phoenix sounds a lot like the Alpha, except for the EMP (little damage, long range)
-Again, similar to the the Alpha (somewhat anti-tank, extremely vulnerable after attacking, lethal in large groups)
-Similar to the Alpha, but stronger (if the units aren't moving or are slow)
You forgot the Armor Gen's Bomber, it's almost twice as strong against buildings, it's speed is that of a Raptor)
As shown, If there's at least 2 AA units that have the Alpha in it's range, the Aurora will 100% die.

(6)

Well, evidently the point is to destroy the enemy's superweapon, for which he paid a lot of money, without loosing anything yourself. If you think wasting >7.5k of auroras is a better idea, you *should* reconsider your tactics

No that's not the point, I just mentioned that since you wrote that you can use your own cheaper SWs to take out your opponent ones', but, since you need 2 of them to take out one, it negates the whole "cheaper" and since it has no AoE like the Nuke, SCUD,..., your SWs would only be used as anti-SW weapons. FYI, the current requirement to take out an enemy SW is 8 Alphas, to that would be 20k.

(5)

THIS is just a bunch of mindless babbling. I dont know what gave you the idea that i think of AA- support as useless, but for the rest: It seems to me that you believe USA:SW is incapable of defeating an enemy without relying on superweapons or overpowered Auroras. You are completely wrong. And I'm ready to prove my point: Install hamachi, meet me in "Zhaos Room 6" (no password) and I'll gladly show you what exactly I'm gonna do if you manage to build a superweapon (but not now- I have to sleep, too)

Do you mean AA as in Anti Air or Aurora Alphas?
No, i don't belive that, but just to poke at you, the SuperWeapon General shouldn't rely on it's superweapons??? And the current Alpha's are by no means overpowered, they are, in fact, underpowered in regards to it's requirements, cost and damage.
Other than the Aurora, there is nothing particularly special about the SW Gen, unless you mean to spam infantry (Combat Armor) or use Plasma Tanks, which are powerful, but weak in armor. The Shaterer is good, but requires a Gens Point and oftenly loses to a Gatling Tank in 1on1,... basically, if you play as SW, you'll undoubtedly lose more units percentage-wise than playing as any other USA Gen, since everything you have is either low armor/high attack or low armor/medium attack, except for infantry of course, which with the Combat Armor Upgrade is very powerful, but if you can only rely on infantry, then the SW Gen should be renamed to the Infantry Gen.

P.S.
I joined, so let me know when you can show me.

This post has been edited by ShEsHy: 8 Nov 2009, 15:31

[GeneralCamo]

I recently did a test with alpha auroras with ghost, here are the results:
Players:
Ghost: superweapons
GeneralCamo: special weapons
1^st test: sentinal cannons. Auroras upgraded with counter measures and sentinal cannons upgraded with beetle targeting computer.
2 sentinal cannons: Aurora shot down after payload drop
1 sentinal cannon: Aurora was shot down again.
2^nd test: Gattling tanks, still upgraded
2 gatt tanks: aurora was shot down
2 gatt tanks versus 2 auroras: both were shot down, but with heavy to the gatts
1 gat tank versus 1: shot down
1 gatt vs 2: 1 shot down, tank destroyed

[Prince Kassad]

Did the gatt actually manage to shoot down the Aurora before the bomb detonated, or am I missing something here? The alpha bomb is not supposed to detonate that slowly.

[Chyros]

I recently did a test with alpha auroras with ghost, here are the results:
Players:
Ghost: superweapons
GeneralCamo: special weapons
1^st test: sentinal cannons. Auroras upgraded with counter measures and sentinal cannons upgraded with beetle targeting computer.
2 sentinal cannons: Aurora shot down after payload drop
1 sentinal cannon: Aurora was shot down again.
2^nd test: Gattling tanks, still upgraded
2 gatt tanks: aurora was shot down
2 gatt tanks versus 2 auroras: both were shot down, but with heavy to the gatts
1 gat tank versus 1: shot down
1 gatt vs 2: 1 shot down, tank destroyed

That test is kind of skewed, since Leang has quite exceptional AA with beetle targeting, which can't be taken as an average.

[beefJeRKy]

Why in your right mind would you send the Auroras against a group of AA units anyway? I find the Alpha very useful for defence btw. Apart from tearing into tank columns, it disrupts them nicely and allows better picking off at range with units like the tomahawk etc... I agree it needs a bit of a boost, and possibly the ability to kill an AA unit that gets hit directly by the bomb and not its subsequent explosion. Also while the alpha shouldn't excel at destroying buildings, it may as well deal 80% (or so) of the damage the plain Aurora does.

[Stubbjax]

That test is kind of skewed, since Leang has quite exceptional AA with beetle targeting, which can't be taken as an average.

And every other China General gets Chain Guns while the GLA get AP Rockets and Armour Piercing Bullets.

[Chyros]

And every other China General gets Chain Guns while the GLA get AP Rockets and Armour Piercing Bullets.

Leang starts off WITH Chain Guns, and can upgrade further to Beetle Targeting. Kind of comparable to the Anthrax Gamma situation. In any case, it gives her practically unrivalled AA power.