Nitpicking, Typos, duplicates, missing features... Options

[Lcpl Carrow]

About Ironside's aircraft: I'm assuming you weren't around at Fallout Studios forums, back when .95 was new, because then you would know that the Black Widow is meant as an anti-unit strike aircraft, much the way Raptors are good at taking out tanks, and the F-16XL is his non-stealthed Nighthawk equivalent. As has been said already, Ironside is a very highly specialized general with very highly specialized units. The Black Widow not attacking air was intentional in order to be consistent with his specialization. Which by the way is armor. Not aircraft.

And if we're reality whoring here, then why doesn't the Little Bird carry four infantry? Why do the Marines suck? Why are the Marines focused on defense instead of aggressive attack? Why is their specialty something that only the Air Farce could ever afford? Las-gun style lasers? Why do you see like every projectile in the game? Believe me, I can tell you from experience that you don't see most of them. Why doesn't infantry die in one hit, and why do tanks suck against them? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a reality whore, but ShW is not a reality-whore mod. If you want uber-realism, play CWC or VGO.

[White Cat]

About Ironside's aircraft: I'm assuming you weren't around at Fallout Studios forums, back when .95 was new, because then you would know that the Black Widow is meant as an anti-unit strike aircraft, much the way Raptors are good at taking out tanks, and the F-16XL is his non-stealthed Nighthawk equivalent. As has been said already, Ironside is a very highly specialized general with very highly specialized units. The Black Widow not attacking air was intentional in order to be consistent with his specialization. Which by the way is armor. Not aircraft.

And if we're reality whoring here, then why doesn't the Little Bird carry four infantry? Why do the Marines suck? Why are the Marines focused on defense instead of aggressive attack? Why is their specialty something that only the Air Farce could ever afford? Las-gun style lasers? Why do you see like every projectile in the game? Believe me, I can tell you from experience that you don't see most of them. Why doesn't infantry die in one hit, and why do tanks suck against them? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a reality whore, but ShW is not a reality-whore mod. If you want uber-realism, play CWC or VGO.

Do not put words in my mouth. I never claimed or demanded realism. Little Bird as is serves no purpose whatsoever. A Chinook can do the same task.

[beefJeRKy]

A chinook is slower and more vulnerable. That said, fill a combat chinook with 4 MDs and 2 pathfinders. You'll enjoy the results.

[cryptkeeper]

but yes as said above try sneaking a chinook in a base with Burton. Then try the little bird you will find that not only does the little bird make for excellent distraction for Burton its quicker and harder to kill. With good micromanaging skills you can make burton drop quiet devastating in pvp.


Don't under estimate the power of changing a units attributes it can completely change the style and strategies used

This post has been edited by cryptkeeper: 10 Mar 2010, 23:44

[White Cat]

but yes as said above try sneaking a chinook in a base with Burton. Then try the little bird you will find that not only does the little bird make for excellent distraction for Burton its quicker and harder to kill. With good micromanaging skills you can make burton drop quiet devastating in pvp.


Don't under estimate the power of changing a units attributes it can completely change the style and strategies used

How about making the chopper a stealth unit then. I am all in for sneaking in. Or sneaky sniper <s>drive</s>fly-bys. Unfortunately Combat Chinooks are slow and are easy to target. A minor gap in the enemies defenses (thanks to a MOAB strike perhaps) could let me slip by that little bird only if it is cloaked. Otherwise a single quad cannon is enough.

The point is little bird isn't "just right" for sneaky attacks.

[Lcpl Carrow]

Do not put words in my mouth. I never claimed or demanded realism.

Really?

Base USA:
Upgraded crusader tanks physics is broken. A hover tank would be hard to stop and hard to turn much like a hovercraft . . .
Little bird should also detect stealth. Recon is the purpose of the actual aircraft.

Air Force general:
. . . Little bird should be available to this general.

Idea is it should have an advantage and disadvantage. It should not trigger mines, float over water and not act as a tracked unit by lacking a level of control.

Transport helicopters have a capacity of 4 . . .
The range of Hellstorm cannon is a bit too short.
Temple of Gaia's shots cause earthquakes. Which is fine. But people fly sky high during the shakes. They shouldn't be flying far and they shouldn't be flying high.

I beg to differ.

And no, I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was making a point. Don't get me wrong, I would like a stealthed, stealth-revealing, fireported, four-person carrying OH-6A Cayuse too. But that isn't what we have, and it isn't what was intended. Because ShW is not a realism mod.

And before you mention it, yes, I did notice the title.

[Zeke]

Carrow there is nothing wrong with what you said however there is something wrong with your tone, this guy is new give him some slack :/

Also, the pop-up patriot has more of an anti infantry role because doesn't miss moving infantry unlike it's EMP cousin. Therefore EMP is not required.

[cryptkeeper]

How about making the chopper a stealth unit then. I am all in for sneaking in. Or sneaky sniper <s>drive</s>fly-bys. Unfortunately Combat Chinooks are slow and are easy to target. A minor gap in the enemies defenses (thanks to a MOAB strike perhaps) could let me slip by that little bird only if it is cloaked. Otherwise a single quad cannon is enough.

The point is little bird isn't "just right" for sneaky attacks.

early game you won't see those kinds of defenses and stealthed little bird would be completely unbalanced think of it a person techs up to burton or pathies (when vses gla ). puts one of them into helicopter and lands them behind there lines. taking out there buildings and workers while stealthed... thus wining the game from two or 3 units... plus all the modbility of the litte bird capable of evading stealth detectors.. extremely deadly and very hard hard to counter in a low starting funds game.

The little bird is more effective at sneak attacks then you think just try and go around buildings and units and use maybe another to scout possible attack routes or a spy drone.

This post has been edited by cryptkeeper: 11 Mar 2010, 8:41

[Stubbjax]

White Cat's Mega Issue List (part 2)

My responses are coloured in blue.

Q: Idea is it should have an advantage and disadvantage. It should not trigger mines, float over water and not act as a tracked unit by lacking a level of control.
A: This is not reality, why shouldn't it trigger mines, why shouldn't it not be able to float over water and why not act like a tracked unit? It's just an upgrade to give it more speed. The Inferno Cannon may gain an AT shell but it's still an artillery right?
Then why do GLA upgrades sacrifice armor? For example GLA tanks gain wheels which gives them extra speed but reduces armor. Consistency please.
Consistency is not always a good thing. I want different units/tactics and upgrades depending on which General I choose.

Q: True but this is the air general... Perhaps a stealth-able (with the comanchee stealth upgrade) little bird that has fireports? My point is air general lacks the ability to put snipers up in the air (and them not get shot down by any passing aa unit).
A: Kingmanches are considered OP by the balance team already, and they're getting nerfed, stealth and all. AFG lacks the ability to put snipers up in the air. Ha. Haha. Hahaha. Hahahaha. Hahahahaha. Ask Kamuik or Raptor. Besides, why the hell would you put someone there alone sniping people with no AT support? Unless you're being asinine on purpose, yeah. And no, the fighters (Especially the KR) are made to kill aircraft and the itty bitty tanks. If this "passing AA unit" is a threat why would you even put him there alone in the first place without sufficient Avenger support?
I am not sure what you are trying to explain. But parking a little bird with a sniper hovering over unpassable terrain is a tactical move. Unless the little bird is cloaked it would be an easy target. Not sure what's so funny but I am glad you are entertained.
If you want air-snipers for Air Force just load a Combat Chinook with Snipers.

Q: This is intentional. Stealth + EMP would be far too powerful.
So? Like alpha aurora isn't?
A: If you think the Aurora Alpha is overpowered [b]against anything other than antfantry and anything tougher than a dozer/humvee, ask the community who are not part of the team who have internal betas about what they think of the AAlpha, and those who play MP. Stealth + EMP is way too overpowered, no matter how you argue it.
Stationary defenses are stationary... Against a human player stealth is a mere irritation if you know where everything is.
That does not negate the fact that stealth + EMP = OP.

Q: No. But the unit already carries a laser rifle... And the grenade is boring. 2 other colonel burtons have the same thing. Air Force generals burton is quite badass and is second only to the armor general one.
A: Boring or not, it doesn't matter. It's the gameplay that matters. There are only few who would go out of their way to watch that Burton stand there firing his grenades against the AI, and certainly none in a MP game will waste their time doing that because there is no time for eye candy.
Why not make the entire game made out of white boxes then?
Because that is a really stupid idea.

Q: In that case if your base is in the middle of the map they'd be far too late. I'd prefer to use the specter gunship for that purpose as I can actually target...
A: Then don't get it in the first place...
I will be ignoring replies like this one now on since it serves to no purpose.
All Generals abilities have their purposes as well as strengths/weaknesses. I suggest you use them to your advantage.

China seems to have fewer bugs and modifications to upgrades. As before I have no way to know if what I see different is intended.

Starting with duplicate upgrades...
China Special weapons general has two upgrades (napalm and gatling) that suffers the duplication issue. They have to be bought separately. Since they have different sprites I am inclined to believe this was intended. I can't see why though. Don't they have the same effect?
White Napalm = Black Napalm (25% damage) + an extra 25% damage. Same with Beetle Targeting.

Both tank general and base china have seperate autoloader upgrade
Yes, they do. You also upgrade it at another building.

General issues:
I think all upgrades in nuclear missile silo should be migrated elsewhere. I like how nuke and tank general have their own upgrade structures but even without them propaganda center is for such upgrades. In multi-player particularly I have had games with "no superweapon" rule but would have to tolerate nukes for upgrade only. This is only unpleasant.
If they were migrated elsewhere they would be far too powerful. It's balanced as it is.

Base china:
Doesn't seem to have any special unit aside from two air units. There is nothing special about this tech tree... Thats boring.
Even though vChina is a very good General. China are supposed to be all-rounders anyway.

Special weapons general:
Mig afterburner upgrade is available despite the general not having a way to purchase it. Like before I do not mind this being there but would like to see more of this cross tech between generals.
Yes, because cross-teching matters.

Transport helicopters have a capacity of 4 preventing the ability to carry dozers.
This might be intentional.
The range of Hellstorm cannon is a bit too short.
But it's balanced. If you know how to use them, they work fine.
Temple of Gaia's shots cause earthquakes. Which is fine. But people fly sky high during the shakes. They shouldn't be flying far and they shouldn't be flying high. Infantry shouldn't be damaged from quakes and tanks should recieve minor damage. More fragile units like nuke cannons are a different story altogether.
If that were the case, the Temple of Gaia would not nearly be as powerful.

Propaganda center has it's own speaker system but no way to upgrade it. Since this general lacks propaganda towers perhaps the propaganda center should lack them too?
All Chinese Generals can purchase the Subliminal Messaging upgrade except for Special Weapons.

How about making the chopper a stealth unit then. I am all in for sneaking in. Or sneaky sniper drive fly-bys. Unfortunately Combat Chinooks are slow and are easy to target. A minor gap in the enemies defenses (thanks to a MOAB strike perhaps) could let me slip by that little bird only if it is cloaked. Otherwise a single quad cannon is enough.
Little Birds are not intended for that purpose. They are merely recon + cannon fodder-type units. Also the tactic you described is easily possible without the need of a helicopter.

[White Cat]

I suppose people will try to counter every minor point I make to the greatest extent possible. Even go as far as assume near hostile tone.

I labeled this thread nitpicking. While I wasn't expecting a whole lot of change it seems like no one wants even potential bugs reported.

I wont post anything ever again. Sorry to waste all of your time.

Devs, do these guys a favor. Do not change anything. Just increase version number without actual change.

[Stubbjax]

I suppose people will try to counter every minor point I make to the greatest extent possible.

Well what did you expect to happen? We are merely explaining how your suggestions could greatly affect balance/gameplay, take too long to implement or whether your bugs are fixable. There is surely no harm in that...?

Even go as far as assume near hostile tone.

Sorry mate but something tells me that you have no idea what kind of tone my text is.

I labeled this thread nitpicking. While I wasn't expecting a whole lot of change it seems like no one wants even potential bugs reported.

What makes you think that?

I wont post anything ever again. Sorry to waste all of your time.

I disagree with you here. If it was a waste of time nobody would have replied.

This post has been edited by stubbjax02: 11 Mar 2010, 11:08

[Alias]

I suppose people will try to counter every minor point I make to the greatest extent possible. Even go as far as assume near hostile tone.

I labeled this thread nitpicking. While I wasn't expecting a whole lot of change it seems like no one wants even potential bugs reported.

I wont post anything ever again. Sorry to waste all of your time.

Devs, do these guys a favor. Do not change anything. Just increase version number without actual change.

The whole point is most of these are so minor that the effort gone into changing them would be far greater than what it would actually achieve.
The whole definition of nitpicking is being critical about things that are so minor to everyone but yourself.

People do want potential bugs reported (but things that are actually bugs, i.e. crash the game), but almost everything you've posted in here have just been minor cosmetic issues, with most of them being deliberately inserted.

You have no idea how much change actually happens between versions. 0.95 and 0.951 at face value look almost exactly the same, but it took Stinger and myself (and a few others) the majority of 6 weeks to playtest and adjust many, many unseen values that ended up in 0.951.

This post has been edited by Alias: 11 Mar 2010, 11:20

[Shiro]

I suppose people will try to counter every minor point I make to the greatest extent possible. Even go as far as assume near hostile tone.

No one was even remotely hostile to you... yet. Also, you yourself labeled your own thread nitpicking, fine. People try to explain to you why the things you write are barely beneficial.

I labeled this thread nitpicking. While I wasn't expecting a whole lot of change it seems like no one wants even potential bugs reported.

See above. Most of the things you wrote are not even bugs.

I wont post anything ever again. Sorry to waste all of your time.

Alright, have a nice life then No need to be ironic or sarcastic. If you would waste people's lifetime, no one would even bother to answer. You can post just fine, as long as you follow the rules.

Devs, do these guys a favor. Do not change anything. Just increase version number without actual change.

No comment.

[cryptkeeper]

I suppose people will try to counter every minor point I make to the greatest extent possible. Even go as far as assume near hostile tone.

I labeled this thread nitpicking. While I wasn't expecting a whole lot of change it seems like no one wants even potential bugs reported.

I wont post anything ever again. Sorry to waste all of your time.

Devs, do these guys a favor. Do not change anything. Just increase version number without actual change.

1.well if you post a idea expect people to be against it and state there reason as to why. So be ready to think the idea through and state example of how they wouldn't be over powered and would be only beneficial. Be as detailed as possible with your ideas and examples.

2.bug reporting is always always fine I at least just stated which bugs are unfix-able by us.

3. no comment except up to your -shrug- I didn't mind discussing your ideas or bugs. Tho try and not put so many at once.

4. never going to happen we love new stuff too much of course if it can be balanced properly. We don't add things for the sake of adding them like some other ZH mods.

This post has been edited by cryptkeeper: 11 Mar 2010, 22:36

[Zeke]

Why not make the entire game made out of white boxes then?

White boxes you say?

(yes this IS generals, a REALLY old build)


I'm sorry I couldn't resist ><

This post has been edited by Zeke: 29 Mar 2010, 17:46

[Shiro]

Surely looks different. Also I notice EA decided to use some of the command bars designs in TW.