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Posted by: Zion 1 Dec 2016, 1:17

Hey guys, bruce and I did a test, here are the results

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDQuFz4sGAg

So bruce was telling me that because I was expecting it, that I countered.. well in the video I clearly saw the doser coming, before I even finished my war factory, this right away tells me he will be doser rushing me, it doesnt matter what bruce would of built there, whether its a barracks, tower, or fortification.. the bmp goes for the doser, and its done... and bmp comes out in time to stop this mess, and while doser was running away, i had more units queue up, then bruce rushed me with a second doser, that i did not see coming, at first, but I already had a barracks out, so there was no chance.

Let me know what you guys think, I really dont see the issue here, nor do i ever loose to a doser rush, its a waist of time, when you know your hotkeys and have map awarness.

This is my standard russia build, i play like this vs all factions, nothing special.. i didnt go double barracks, i always go double supply, then wf and br

Posted by: (USA)Bruce 1 Dec 2016, 1:55

Your a real jackass for recording this without my knowladge or consent, but either way the videos private.
My point still stands as this game Xeres, you know my views on this so I'll leave it at that.

Posted by: Zion 1 Dec 2016, 2:02

I told you i wanted to test this, i told you to try to rush me, and you did. I recorded purly to show russia players how to counter an eca doser, i made a video to show that i aint all talk, and i asked you for a re and u didnt want to.. why you are in a bad mood is not my problem. I did not embarras u in any way. If i was playing eca vs myself samething would of happened.

Posted by: Skitt 1 Dec 2016, 2:10

would help if the vid wasnt set to private zion

Posted by: chemisthypnos 1 Dec 2016, 2:20

Thank you both for the effort. The video is private though.

Posted by: Zion 1 Dec 2016, 2:36

Oh oops, fixed, not sure why it was private

Posted by: Skitt 1 Dec 2016, 3:09

good vid, good example on how to deal with the dozer rush.
key part being
you scouted and saw the first one comeing

Posted by: chemisthypnos 1 Dec 2016, 4:31

Ok. I can see why there was a problem. I generally don't play at that rate (unless I have to tryhard) and that is why I was not able to obtain that result. That said, this solution will not be attainable to to anyone that is not a very good/ extremely good player at this game with refined movements/ key commands. In contrast, the ECA strat does not require such a fast response time and micromanagement of units/ dozers. The conclusion, I believe, is that counters like these will be unreachable for about 95% of the ROTR community. While I do understand that game balance is generally done with the top- tier players in mind, I do think that about 95% of the population being unable to counter this strat were they to play Russia is not a comforting thought.

Were you to play at about half of the play speed found in this video (to simulate even a slightly above average player), this counter certainly would not work.

Posted by: Scud 1 Dec 2016, 5:07

Geez guys chill out... it's not like a video of someone on bed with your mother.

Posted by: Knjaz. 1 Dec 2016, 7:08

Well, now there's common sense in this discussion. High/Top level (relative to player skills in community) vs Mid/Low level state of balance is something we do at times consider. Like, even right now in 187 there're units that I totally expect to be pretty hard to counter on Mid to Low skill level, but we're working on that.
I'd like to see what happens in your games - and preferably not on TD, it's a completely obsolete map for RotR gameplay.

Posted by: Skitt 1 Dec 2016, 7:45

you seem to have completely missed one of the key parts, as you should do with every pvp match SCOUT
xeres was only able to stop both those dozers because he SAW them comeing due to scouting.

high skill and speed had very little to do with that, any player at any skill level can stop a dozer if they bother to scout asap which as i just said is something you should do every match

Posted by: Mizo 1 Dec 2016, 8:59

Notice 2 things :

- While Xeres was playing at high speed , the map was very small (TD) which under normal curcimstances is imbalanced.

- Unlike any rush in game from other factions, if this fails, it's game over for ECA. So it's not a particularly safe strategy to be able to pull off consistently.

Posted by: Zion 1 Dec 2016, 15:19

I was not fast in that game, I just know my Build Orders and I know exactly when to execute them, this comes with experience, you should see me doser rush players with eca (you will probably not keep up). imo it takes alot more effort to pull of a successful doser rush vs a high end player, than to defend one with russia.
and its not 95% of the community, I play many high end players, that are just as fast.

and I played on TD on purpose, to prove that even a small unbalanced map (i think its balanced) you can still stop a doser rush, if this was a larger map, the doser cant even get to your base in time

One more thing to mention, Bruce DID NOT doser rush my supply, he tried to take both oils, thats not really a doser rush, the doser needed to drive a longer distance if he wanted to doser rush my supply, by that time if are getting a tower built in your base, well then there is no excuse, you need to get better.

scouts are there for a reason.

Posted by: XAOC-RU- 1 Dec 2016, 17:53

Tell this to Bruce. He want to set "TOP Secret" to this vid:)

Posted by: (USA)Bruce 1 Dec 2016, 17:58

>I was the first one to tell you guys the videos private
Otherwise I wouldnt be saying it in the first place...I just dislike being recorded in any way without knowladge beforehand.

Posted by: Zion 1 Dec 2016, 18:20

If this was a real game id be pissed too.. if someone records and doesn't tell me,
this is a simple test, like I told you in beginning, and if you knew i was recording, it might of made you play differently... possibly even worse. and then it would not of been a legitimate video.

Bruce played fast as well, no mess ups in his BO, but imo going barracks first is not a good start as eca, you want to tech up asap, so going supply first, and going forward barracks makes more sense to me.

still does not change the fact that eca dosers still need to drive over to ur base, and you can be prepared for it..

If i didnt scout I can see this game going into eca's favor

Posted by: XAOC-RU- 1 Dec 2016, 19:21

Good APM made work perfectly. But what I noticed at first place: Bruce send only one dozer to your supply where WF was build. He dont send 2nd Dozer at one time to your second supply with barracks which was unprotected (2nd one came a bit later when you already destroyed his first dozer and was able to send BMP to another supply). Problem with Russia: when you build dozer-PP-mishka-double supply and start to build 2 supply trucks in your supply centers you have only 500$ at that moment. Moment when you finish WF you receive 1st supply income (525$) so you have 1025$ at this moment. 1025-850(BMP)=175$. This is not enough to start build RPG conscript at your barracks. Sure you can wait several seconds and 175+525=700$. Now you can build 2 RPG cons(-500$)=200$. Notice that your BMP will be on another side of your base defending 1st supply. The second one will be under protection from your barracks infantry. If you will lucky you will able to build 2 RPG at that moment but oops< single dog( or maybe two eat them (tasty ruskies), because ECA able to build them at send it to your barracks, also dozer can crush them and simple conscripts too (if you will build them first). Why I tell this story? Because my ECA opponents did that many times especcially on such maps like Lagoon, Dust Devil and others.
In other hand you can save 900$ by canceling your supply truck from 2nd supply. But in that case you will lose your income and will have to wait for the next income to build 2nd supply truck. I'm sure that Bruce was able to play better in that game. Anyway he have more interesting tactics to win and do not use this stupid tower rush.

Posted by: Zion 1 Dec 2016, 19:35

@xoac, thats why once i saw bruce's first doser going to my right, i sent my miska to the left to see if he is double doser rushing, he was not, so all i needed to do was take out the first doser, i dont know why he sent his second doser to me later, that was a fail... but he knew better than to send 2 dosers up at the same time

keep in mind for eca to rush with 2 dosers, you either need to go 4 doser start, or delay the second doser until u establish your base, both strats make eca horribly weak to harassment, and will have a garrenteed 2nd supply delay, or collection, or it wont have money for tech.. so yea he can make a few towers.. but whats next?

thats why you dont see people going for a double doser rush, cuz lets just say you are able to make a successful rush, you have nomoney left, you are not teched up.. so all russia needs to do is take the middle, or tech up and rush eca..

Ive been in this situation and eca looses 100% if you focus on taking eca out.. and not its rush

The only place i see a double doser rush kinda working is on dust devil, because technically you are rushing with only ONE doser, the second one is going to your expansion.
but a doser rushing eca looses everytime on dust devil.. just rush its cc

Posted by: XAOC-RU- 1 Dec 2016, 20:03

You need 3 dozers for double dozers rush. 1st build supply, 2nd go for 2nd supply, 3rd build barracks, when 1st dozer finish sup.cent. he start to build FC, then 3rd dozer finish barracks you just order to build 2 dogs and set waypoint to enemy's barracks near the second supply cent. By the way 3rd and 2nd dozer start to move at enemy's supply centers. Sure you can catch one of them by BMP if ECA will not spot your BMP by dogs and will not retreat one of the dozers back to base but meanwhile another dozer will start to build GT at your supplys, Dogs will kill RPG cons that you will build at that time maybe. If you will build simple conscripts 1st, they will not be able to kill dozer before he finish GT or dog will kill them before they do it or they will shoot at dogs and dozer will be out of direct fire. Also you will able to build transport from FC and get panzerfausts to it and go for BMP. I can repeat this after some training for the ECA and show it. I'm sure my ECA rush will be not perfect and I may lost the game after that coz I cannot play by ECA very good but people will see how it dangerous at least.

Posted by: Zion 1 Dec 2016, 21:14

seems like you never actually tried this, and if u did feel free to post the rep, because what you are saying doesn't work.
you will be too late, russia will already have atleast 2 bmps to kill both dosers (or atleast I definantly will)
for a double doser rush to work
you need to send both 2nd and 3rd dosers up right away, you can't wait after building second supply, and barracks
that's the only way you will make it up there in time, that leaves you with one supply that ur first doser built, and that's a 100% lose

and btw rpg toopers one shot dogs

but your strat might just work on Desert Quardant

Posted by: Scud 2 Dec 2016, 4:58

Huh? Why? You're one of the most respected players of the comunity. I could kill to get a good internet connection and be able to play a game against you, Mizo, Xeres, Skitt, Rik and M.P...

Posted by: XAOC-RU- 2 Dec 2016, 8:21

Russia cannot have 2 bmp at that moment for a reason that I described (money wait). I played few games 3 or 4 with Drebel. Yeah he's not pro but decent player and he lose all games. If you send 2nd and 3rd dozers right away after constructing the first one will not finish FC and they will just stand without ability to build GT. Dogs can be shoted by RPG. But they will be not alone.

Posted by: Skitt 2 Dec 2016, 10:30

its rather map dependent as well as player skill levels and awareness of the situation.

for EG as has been stated up top 2nd dozer to 1 supply, third to second supply.
however the alternative for the eca player is only do a 2 dozer start
1st dozer goes off to assault the Russian player, second stays behind to build the base up.
its less BS and slightly easier for the russian player to deal with while also being less catastrophic for the ECA player if the assault fails due to haveing the extra 1k from skipping the third dozer.

key points.
A: Always scout asap with a mishka so you can see if a dozer or engihound rush is coming
B: if your base is being assaulted by a dozer building defenses or a Rax, wreck the dozer asap ignore the defenses or go around them.
C: bmp to chase and take out the dozer, Grizzly to tank the guard towers or deal with any inf/dogs by a sneeky rax
D: use ur smokes to distract
E: counter assault, ur primary sup is under assault by a dozer rush? sneak the eca back from the other flank it will be exposed 90% of the time distract the eca player and the sup rush will fail

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 2 Dec 2016, 11:57

You say that until you get rushed 8 games in a row by those people

Back on topic tho, growing on what skitt says,
If you can lock down the enemy scaffolds so the eca dozer cant advance you can lock down the enemy building crawl 100%.
By doing that you can simply just advance with a couple of tanks and infantry and push the expansion back, or go straight for the ECA main base to cut their supplies.

Posted by: Zion 2 Dec 2016, 20:08

Drebel, is the reason it has been working for you LOL...

he is not good early game at all. hes too slow
I rushed him with one doser, plenty of times, i dont doser rush anymore tho

But i have much respect for him, he plays me all the time, and does not dodge
and late game I wouldn't mind having him on my team, he accually knows what to build

and feel free to hmu if u wana test this on me

Posted by: XAOC-RU- 3 Dec 2016, 5:45

Sure I can test it with you. The reason why I played with him is very small amount of players when I online. Sure you can show better game since I know your games. Ussually I play between 00:00-2:00 on sunday and sometimes a bit early in other days if I have free time. My timezone is GMT+5.

Posted by: chemisthypnos 3 Dec 2016, 7:48

Not true. While it is very important to scout, it does not mean that you will stop a dozer rush even if you see it coming beforehand. If you try to emulate the video shown above without using any hotkeys and operate with about half of the speed in ordering your dozers (about what the average player plays like), this counter will not work.

Conversely, even a mediocre ECA player will do just about the same thing that Bruce did in this video.

Posted by: chemisthypnos 3 Dec 2016, 7:50

I do agree with your sentiment.

The problem in this case is that I think that this counter will only work for players able/willing to invest the time to learn hotkeys/have a fast reaction time (not most of the community).

Posted by: chemisthypnos 3 Dec 2016, 8:06

This seems to be a very simplistic model for a more complicated process. It is very easy to say to just wreck the dozer, but it is much harder in application (assuming a mediocre reaction time for building construction / no use of hotkeys in the beginning). The average player will not be able to get a BMP out to effectively counter the dozer due to a lacking of appropriate reaction time. This means that nearly the entire community will not be able to employ this counter against the rush. I have estimated the time to be only enough to get a kodiak out before a fortification is garisonned with infy at Russia's supply (I am not saying that this is the strat to use, I am only using it as a time reference without hotkeys etc...). Scouting will not always allow you to stop the dozer rush. Most palyers can see it coming, but they cannot do anything about it.

Posted by: Skitt 3 Dec 2016, 15:28

in that case ill add another point and the very most important of all

Posted by: Mizo 3 Dec 2016, 15:41

More like :

USE HOTKEYS!

If hotkeys are what determines you winning or loosing, use em.

Posted by: chemisthypnos 3 Dec 2016, 19:08

I understad what you are saying. Virtually all Russia players will be farmed by this strat though.

Examine the difference in skill required to counter this strat for other factions:
USA: firebases are often enough to stop this strat completely when used with missile defenders / rangers.
GLA: quads...enough said.
ECA: Impossible due to cheetah/ mirror strat.
China: Rapid production of fast building vehicles / infy. The rush will fail.
Russia: Player must have very fast build time/ knowledge of hotkeys to be able to build a BMP in time to stop the dozer. BMP + grizzly + RPG conscripts to fully stop the rush.

There is a much larger mountain of difficulty for a Russia player to overcome to have a hope of not being killed by the rush. As such, alot fewer people that play Russia will be able to counter the rush. I estimate that, given the constraints, I don't think that many people will be able to counter it.

Posted by: Mizo 3 Dec 2016, 19:16

But at the same time, playing Russia does not require the highest micro-level of unit control to make them effective, unlike other factions like USA. ( It's in fact intentionally the easiest).

So yeah, Skill level really counts here.

Posted by: chemisthypnos 3 Dec 2016, 19:18

It is an unfortunate reality that most people will not invest the time to learn the shortcuts that we are discussing. It has gotten to the point that virtually every ECA player online just immediately dozer rushes Russia players, and It works almost every time because most people will not be able to do fast counters like this. I think that this reality is something to be considered when discussing this topic. I think that this strat is a big problem because I have literally seen Russia players switch to GLA as soon as they see their enemy is ECA.

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 3 Dec 2016, 21:44

If youre not willing to learn the counter, then you deserve to lose to the strategy.

Simple as that.

Posted by: chemisthypnos 4 Dec 2016, 19:37

You can pursue that logic to conclude that there is no such thing as an OP strategy. There does, theoretically, exist a counter to every strategy. It is like fighting GLA as Russia in 1.86. Theoretically, it is counterable, but in application, almost no one can do it against any decent GLA player.

Posted by: chemisthypnos 4 Dec 2016, 19:38

* See reply to Rikerzzz below*

Posted by: Skitt 4 Dec 2016, 19:46

thats pritty simple realy, eca realy realy needs to cripple the russia or drastically slow them down to delay it reaching T2, eco spamming and going full bulldozer bruteforce mode.
other wise its mandatory turtle ur ass off get forced to go pandora, get ur head kicked in and be in for one hell of a fight.

Posted by: Zion 5 Dec 2016, 14:51

Look man, the only reason you are loosing ur russia games to gla and eca, is because these players are much better than you, if they were same level as you, you would be winning every game..
Why?
because russia is so easy to play, u dont need perfect build orders, you dont need micro, you just spam units and eco and win, with some simple combos and stats
gla and eca on the other hand, require much more effort to win in general I know this because I play all factions..
if gla and eca fail to rush Russia, it literally becomes the hardest matchup, russia completely wrecks eca late game, and it completely wrecks gla in its mid game, and if ur buggy micro is not on point and you have no tunnels, u will suffer the defeat. or for eca, I dont even know how to win a late game russia, to me it seams impossible, Im talking about high level games.

The original question was whether this strat was counterable or not..
there is a video here that shows it is..
now ur telling the devs to make changes so that "ur one faction u play" will suite u, and make you win every game, sorry man thats not how it works

we can close/lock this argument...

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 5 Dec 2016, 22:45

Pretty much what Zion said.

A fair amount of unit counters are designed around micro and skill (especially with USA and GLA), and that extends to eca and russia as well.
You need to adapt and play faster to beat/counter these strats because they are rather easily beatable if you know what to do.

You now know what to do, so go out and try it