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The Great RotR Turkey Shoot, Multiplayer - A Casual's Questions
stukaju87d3
post 28 Apr 2015, 21:50
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I want to try out RotR MP, but after watching some of the streams I'm afraid that the experience would be a bit like what the Japanese had coming vs. Good Old USA.

What I mean by this is that my greatest RotR "achievement" has been to defeat 1.802 Brutal China with Russia and $10k starting. MP requires a lot more... knowledge, and thinking and micro, etc...

So my question is ... what do I need to do to get ready to play a fun game online? And by fun I mean, it's OK if I lose, but I want to put up enough of a fight so I feel I can eek out a win sometime in the future.

Do I need to know what units are T0, T1, T2? Precise unit costs? I've heard "build orders" before... do they matter? Do I need to know unit armor types? Do I need to learn all the counters? Hard/Soft? I know the basic counters, but, for example, I only recently read about a new unit, Heavy Sniper, and that it's meant to slaughter GLA buggies. I know I need to have a more diverse army than vs. AI... but how diverse? vs. AI you can win with 3/4 units. And my micro sucks, like really. There are so many unit abilities I don't use because I 1) don't know about them and 2) I've never thought about when to use them. I've never "needed" to against AI.

etc...

Tips/ideas? mellow.gif
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M.P
post 28 Apr 2015, 22:09
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You should know your stuff purposes, Health, combat efficiency and tactics related to that unit. You should know all of ur units, single by single.

Also, the most important one, you should know ur enemy's stuff. Examples:
if you're playing vs USA, you should always have stealth detection system, cause Burton can blow your base up!

If you're playing vs ECA, always watch out for howitzers. They can take out your units quickly! Also watch out for Frank, he can drain your money and shut down your power!

If you're playing vs China, be aware of Black Lotus, she can capture ur whole base in a minute.

Those are very small examples.

After that, U should know micro managing (U can ask the master of micro, (USA)Bruce). If u know the last part (Know your stuff), it's not enough to play. You should micro them to win.
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8igDaddy8lake
post 29 Apr 2015, 0:03
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QUOTE (MPGM @ 28 Apr 2015, 17:09) *
After that, U should know micro managing (U can ask the master of micro, (USA)Bruce). If u know the last part (Know your stuff), it's not enough to play. You should micro them to win.


Micro can win you a game. In one game, I ran 10 AT Drones through a hole in the enemy's defenses, took out his power and Supply, then sent Littlebirds through the same hole (after AT Drones were killed by the Russian Debris) and proceeded to kill his supply again, take out Industrial Plant, and fly back through the hole when the Tunguskas started coming (after downing two Littlebirds from their weird looping flight). He then sent a large army with Teslas, Kodiaks, Tunguskas, and assorted infantry to attack my forward base (actually, one of two forward bases). Through some Stealth Fighter and Littlebird micro, I took out the whole force at the loss of two Firebases, two Rangers, and three MDs. He quit shortly after.

Good micro wins games.

And a side note, play to each faction's strengths. USA is good at raiding, and works best if you quickly capture multiple points on the map for your bases. Russia is pretty powerful with ground units and helicopters, becoming very good at early raids after Assault Armaments (build at least a few helicopters early with them for quick strikes) and one of the best stealth detectors (here a Conscript, there a Conscript, everywhere a Conscript). China is like Russia, but has more focus on spamming tank blobs, and stacking buffs (Troop Crawlers or some propaganda is almost a must for every attack, plus their air force is oft underestimated). GLA is very sneaky, and relies on Tunnels for map control - a Tunnel in the right place can win the game, plus Buggies are the best hit-and-run units, with Cycles being second. As for ECA...artillery and defenses everywhere - make at least two places to fall back to if the first is taken, with lots of "death zones" filled with mines and overshadowed by mortars.
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ComradeCrimson
post 29 Apr 2015, 0:53
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Whilst I do not really play multiplayer much anymore; my advice is this.

Map control, knowing what counters what and just being attentive.

That's it.

Control resources, don't be negligent. Everything else comes with practice and experience. Get your ass skinned and kicked, and you will learn how to hide said ass and how to kick theirs instead.

That's how I learned at least. I can beat the vast majority of players on the lobby because I was facing guys like Bruce and Knjaz, who played this game for too long and are nightmarish to fight.

If you don't got that "luxury" face several brutals at once. Torture yourself with hard opponents and learn to survive. Its brutal but that's the quickest way to learn, and its how I got good; by being ruthlessly punished for my mistakes.


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Guard Llama
post 29 Apr 2015, 3:56
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I've only recently started playing ROTR PvP, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but these are the two most important pieces of advice I can give:

1) Money wins games. Always think about how you can get an economic lead on your opponent. Yes, good micro is important, but if the other guy is pulling in significantly more money, it won't matter because you will eventually be overwhelmed. If you can lock down a majority of the supply points or oil derricks early on you will have a huge lead over your opponent.

2) Pick one faction and focus on learning to play it well rather than constantly switching between factions.
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Cracky
post 29 Apr 2015, 4:39
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First, tell me what your main faction is, then I can give you something wink.gif


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TimeBurner
post 29 Apr 2015, 8:34
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You beat a brutal AI with 10k starting cash! I think you will do fine. Just trust yourself and be as paranoid as possible smile.gif

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XAttus
post 29 Apr 2015, 9:21
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In my opinion games vs AIs should not be compared at all to pvp matches as you have to employ completely tactics when facing a human opponent.

Of course, you can learn the units and discover what counters what to an extent but that's about it. The game becomes a lot more complex in multiplayer, there are a lot of different moves and countermoves that you need to discover and this takes time.

- You WILL get stomped into the ground sometimes,you need to get used to it and overcome the anger and frustration or else you will not improve.
- Choose a faction and stick to it, don't play random.
- Watch the replays of the games you play, especially if you lose and wondering how the f**** could that GLA throw 10 quads at you 2 minutes after starting.
(people lose to 4 quads too)
- Ask more experienced players, most of them will be happy to share their tricks with you
- Don't give up too early...or at all.



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Knjaz.
post 29 Apr 2015, 9:48
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Well, I'd say that Brutal AI games are good to train your "foundation" - micro and macro skill, situational awareness.

Unit counters, build orders etc won't work in PvP ofc.
Just try to avoid turtling and sitting in your base, or better play on 10.000$ against Brutal and simply try to get map/resource control and survive. That's what I did when I tried to improve my in-game speed when I was just starting here. (didn't manage to win even once, but became faster in my actions than I was before).

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 29 Apr 2015, 9:49
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TimeBurner
post 29 Apr 2015, 10:39
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You know its hard to fight a cheating Brutal AI,right?

IDK about you guys

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Composite armour
post 29 Apr 2015, 14:07
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QUOTE (TimeBurner @ 29 Apr 2015, 10:39) *
You know its hard to fight a cheating Brutal AI,right?

IDK about you guys

A cheating brutal AI is still not going to punish you like a player will.


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TimeBurner
post 29 Apr 2015, 14:27
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IDK but I always get wrecked by AI sad.gif hihihihi


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stukaju87d3
post 29 Apr 2015, 19:15
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RE: MPGM
Yeah, I know about stealth detection. I tend to go overboard with that because I spam conscripts everywhere because they are so cheap and useful. Regarding micro, I guess learning all the keybinds won’t hurt either =p.

Re: 8ig Daddy
I tend to play with Russia, and I’ve found Hind very useful against AI. I also always keep a Hind w/ a conscript in base just in case anything shows up. My main problem with them in PvP would be that I can’t micro Goliath. Similarly, I can’t seem to get my Helions not to waste their missiles on the wrong target. ARGH.
I LOVE assault armaments a lot, and I’ve found it to be very useful for at least 2 reasons: 1- Giving Kodiaks good range, something Russian tanks lack, and 2- Boosting Mishkas, which I always include in my army to provide greater visibility. I’m not quite sure what to make of the BMP boost… and speaking of BMPs, I am assuming “put infantry inside and rush”, right?

Re: ComradeCrimson
When I try to control resources against AI (Russia/ECA) I get a bit greedy and spread out too much. I also haven’t yet figured out how to fit map control with Russia, because sans its helis, its units are quite slow, and they are sufficiently expensive that I can’t afford to keep a bunch at all locations. Again, I’m speaking about big maps with spread out resources.

RE: Guard Llama & 8ig Daddy
Your advice is still useful, because you’ve just experienced what I soon will. I haven’t picked a faction yet. I’m partial to Russia, ECA, and GLA. I’m having the easiest time with GLA, and I find them very intuitive, but for some weird reason I think they’re a faction for pros. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I play ECA too defensively and I think that’s the wrong way to go. ECA has awesome and cheap defenses, which I feel should help them deny map control to opponents and which should allow ECA not to worry that much about their base, freeing up military units for map control. So yeah, I’m stuck picking between these three, and I still haven’t figured out how to do early expansions with either of these, though GLA does, again, seem more capable in that regard.

Re: Crackerjack17
Not USA and not China. Does that help? =D

Re: TimeBurner
Ai is easy if you can survive first 10 minutes. It’s easier after a few games as well, because you learn what they’ll send, where and when, so you know how to counter.

Re: Xattus
So pick a faction and keep playing? What are your GLA tricks? =D

Re: Knjaz
I never won a map control game vs. 1.802 $10k Brutal AI (China/USA). Turtling was much easier, especially once I learned what AI will do early-game and once I started abusing Comanches/Hinds mid-game. One of my biggest problems is speed, but that’s a big concept… I’m bad in 3 regards: experience, micro, and multitasking. That third one is especially problematic because there is only one “being attacked” sound and there isn’t any “unit lost” sound like in RA games. I get a bit pissed off when I discover my 3-Tunguska, 1-MTP AA unit dead with an Elite Tiger nearby.

Picking up on what Xattus said, I have a few questions for you regarding Russia:

-When I play Russia, I’m a bit overwhelmed with the unit selection… In a standard assault I use 1) Kodiaks for MBT + 2) Tunguaska vs. Infantry/frontline air + 3) MTPs for repair + recovery 4) Grumbles for air denial and Tunguska backup + 5) Mishkas for visibility + 6) Field Quarters for frontline conscript support + 7) A lot of conscripts for meatshield + vehicle recovery + stealth + 8) Mstas + 9) Armored Reserve units + 10) VDV + 11) Hinds for flank protection/ Nuke cannons/etc + 12) A Sentinel or two for Arena. A bunch of these have special abilities that have to be triggered + I have at least 2 Factories + 1 Barrack + Command Center + Helipad + Supply Center hotkeyed. So….. should I skip on a few of these units and/or is Russia not for me?

-Do BMPs have any use mid-game and beyond?
-Tungugskas or Shmel or Buratino for frontline anti-infantry support?
-Is there any way to stop the Helion from wasting missiles on undesired targets?
-Pathfinding is a pain. Any tricks for Russia?

This post has been edited by stukaju87d3: 29 Apr 2015, 19:18
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iPod ShiFt
post 29 Apr 2015, 19:37
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A very good semi-pro



What you could do is play with other newbies. That's my plan; to work your way up IMO is the best way to get good at a game.
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Guard Llama
post 29 Apr 2015, 20:19
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QUOTE (stukaju87d3 @ 29 Apr 2015, 14:15) *
RE: Guard Llama & 8ig Daddy
Your advice is still useful, because you’ve just experienced what I soon will. I haven’t picked a faction yet. I’m partial to Russia, ECA, and GLA. I’m having the easiest time with GLA, and I find them very intuitive, but for some weird reason I think they’re a faction for pros. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I play ECA too defensively and I think that’s the wrong way to go. ECA has awesome and cheap defenses, which I feel should help them deny map control to opponents and which should allow ECA not to worry that much about their base, freeing up military units for map control. So yeah, I’m stuck picking between these three, and I still haven’t figured out how to do early expansions with either of these, though GLA does, again, seem more capable in that regard.


If GLA feels most intuitive then that's what I would recommend. I don't think of GLA as a faction for pros, its simply that a lot of great players play GLA. In many ways GLA is quite friendly to new comers. Most of their units don't require to much intense micromanagement. Their secondary economy is based out of a single structure (hotkey it and you can easily upgrade your economy even in the middle of a firefight across the map). You can send a worker to a secondary supply spot at the very start of a match and so long as you put some early units in your tunnels, you will have a defensive force which can protect either your main base or your expansion.

Another advantage of focusing on GLA is that it will teach you to go on the offensive and I think that's the hardest part about transitioning from playing the AI to playing actual human beings.

Obviously you should play whatever faction you want, but I wouldn't worry about any faction being "a faction for pros". If any faction is for pros it's ECA and I see plenty of new players playing ECA and having a great time wink.gif
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Cracky
post 30 Apr 2015, 4:33
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A few tricks for the GLA

Terrorist rush

Start by sending a random radar van to the enemy base for scouting. Once you get your barracks, immediately start training 4/5 Terrorist and immediately build a technical once you get your arms dealer set up. Immediately put the 5 terrorists inside the technical then rush it to the enemy base while avoiding obstacles and defenses. Exit the terrorist and rush them to the supply centre! This doesn't always work and can cost you more than it hurts them and I don't advise using this against China/ECA 8ani5.gif

Buggy-Jarmen-Ural Combo

A very irritating combo for the opponent. Jarmen kills the infantry and helis, Urals take care of all kinds of aircraft and the Buggies kill the tanks and buildings.

GLA-Russia Vehicle exploit

When your Ally in a 2v2 is Russia. This trick includes you force firing your ally's vehicles and letting your ally recover them with either the Gen Power or the MTP recovery vehicle. Once their recovered, tell your rebels to occupy them and done wink.gif . You can also tell them go inside the tunnel network.

Early Quad Rush

Immediately get 6 - 9 Quads followed by 1 - 2 scorps once your arms dealer is finished then send them to the enemy. don't forget radar van for scouting.







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Cracky
post 30 Apr 2015, 4:33
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A few tricks for the GLA

Terrorist rush

Start by sending a random radar van to the enemy base for scouting. Once you get your barracks, immediately start training 4/5 Terrorist and immediately build a technical once you get your arms dealer set up. Immediately put the 5 terrorists inside the technical then rush it to the enemy base while avoiding obstacles and defenses. Exit the terrorist and rush them to the supply centre! This doesn't always work and can cost you more than it hurts them and I don't advise using this against China/ECA 8ani5.gif

Buggy-Jarmen-Ural Combo

A very irritating combo for the opponent. Jarmen kills the infantry and helis, Urals take care of all kinds of aircraft and the Buggies kill the tanks and buildings.

GLA-Russia Vehicle exploit

When your Ally in a 2v2 is Russia. This trick includes you force firing your ally's vehicles and letting your ally recover them with either the Gen Power or the MTP recovery vehicle. Once their recovered, tell your rebels to occupy them and done wink.gif . You can also tell them go inside the tunnel network.

Early Quad Rush

Immediately get 6 - 9 Quads followed by 1 - 2 scorps once your arms dealer is finished then send them to the enemy. don't forget radar van for scouting.







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Lobo Solitario
post 30 Apr 2015, 10:52
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Just try it out - if you say up-front that you're new to multiplayer, most people will be helpful and will try not to push you too hard (or will explain why you lost afterwards). The good thing about playing humans is that they make mistakes, and you can get a lucky win even against someone better than you.

My main advice - for RTS multiplay in general - is be aggressive. Holing up in your base is a really bad idea against a human player - you need to get out there and in their face, and keep them under pressure. Unlike an AI, most humans can only concentrate on a few things at once, so if they're busy defending themselves, they will have less time to think about attacking you. Map control and resource control make a big difference against another player, as they are not all-seeing and do not have extra resources like the AI, so you can make life much easier on yourself by putting them on the back foot in these areas.

Once you get into the mindset, everything gets a lot easier from there. It's well worth the experience, as there's so many things you can pull off against a human that just won't work against an AI, and it gives you a whole new insight into the abilities of your units.

EDIT: And for defence, rather than focusing on an impenetrable front line, go for defence in depth - put defensive structures in amongst your base buildings where the opponent has a hard time reaching them, and don't waste too much money on static defences. It's much better to have mobile units which can respond to attacks from different directions (a human will just go round your defence wall as soon as they identify it, or let you feel secure right up to the point where they nuke a big hole in the middle of it, and crush you).

This post has been edited by Lobo Solitario: 30 Apr 2015, 10:55
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ComradeCrimson
post 30 Apr 2015, 11:33
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Just to shoot down the other people who are promoting to be specialists-

Yes. You can do that; but going random is an option as well. I don't care what Attus or others say, you get collectively better at the game if you play random everytime and are forced to play everything.

I stated what I needed to state; but generally speaking you need to find people who can train you by being more experienced is the best start, learning from your mistakes and watching replays.

Going random everytime also teaches you about every faction, and if you ever do decide to go with one faction, you at the very least know the mechanics of who you are fighting. Which will help you when you are bringing your Russian tanks to that seemingly empty GLA base, and then it turns out half your vehicles were hijacked and the rest of the buggers in their base barfed out of tunnels, blowing up your forces with grads or buggies and other units.

Picking one faction is the weak man's way out. Play them all, get better at them all if you want to improve your overall performance.



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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 30 Apr 2015, 12:06
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pls join my games im lonely =c





Crimson's Right


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TimeBurner
post 30 Apr 2015, 13:11
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I have never played other factions in a competitive match before. Russia is my love since RA2 tongue.gif


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(TUR)Metin
post 30 Apr 2015, 14:11
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QUOTE (Crackerjack17 @ 30 Apr 2015, 4:33) *
A few tricks for the GLA

Terrorist rush

Start by sending a random radar van to the enemy base for scouting. Once you get your barracks, immediately start training 4/5 Terrorist and immediately build a technical once you get your arms dealer set up. Immediately put the 5 terrorists inside the technical then rush it to the enemy base while avoiding obstacles and defenses. Exit the terrorist and rush them to the supply centre! This doesn't always work and can cost you more than it hurts them and I don't advise using this against China/ECA 8ani5.gif

Buggy-Jarmen-Ural Combo

A very irritating combo for the opponent. Jarmen kills the infantry and helis, Urals take care of all kinds of aircraft and the Buggies kill the tanks and buildings.

GLA-Russia Vehicle exploit

When your Ally in a 2v2 is Russia. This trick includes you force firing your ally's vehicles and letting your ally recover them with either the Gen Power or the MTP recovery vehicle. Once their recovered, tell your rebels to occupy them and done wink.gif . You can also tell them go inside the tunnel network.

Early Quad Rush

Immediately get 6 - 9 Quads followed by 1 - 2 scorps once your arms dealer is finished then send them to the enemy. don't forget radar van for scouting.

You forgot the USA inf rush
Get veteran company and build a barracks.train 8 missle defenders and build your airport.build a nighthawk and put the MDs in an osprey.Send them to enemy base.but dont lose the osprey as there is still supply to collect


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stukaju87d3
post 30 Apr 2015, 20:27
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Re: Guard Llama

I like GLA because most units are either camouflaged or auto-heal. Most things are cheap; if I lose something, it doesn't hurt. And there's this unwanted roleplay part in my head... when I lose an USA plane or ECA tank... i cringe, it's personal... with GLA? heck, they *want* to die! And what makes sense to me with GLA is the eco. To the extent I dislike micro, I like macro. Expanding feels easier, so that's at least par resources to begin with. Oil Sabotage takes out 25% of the enemy's eco (if I understand how it works), and you can force that higher if you time your attacks properly. 30% bounties... considering the proportion of units that end up dead in a par fight, that's a lot of $. And arms sales - for $6000, $52.5/s. A nice, clean stream that requires no micro. And, since it's not scalable, while enemy eco is, it suggests you can't *afford* to ever become complacent in endgame.

Re: Crackerjack17

I'll try those out, thanks. But i don't understand what the benefit of the Russian vehicle exploit thing is, unless MTP healing aura stacks with Junk Repair. Can't allies use your tunnel network?

Re: Lobo Solitario

I get the importance of aggression in PvP, but I've never really done that in my games. Across FPS, RPG, Grand Strategy, and RTS, I've preferred nuanced defensive play with spoiling tactics and generally relied on allies to do the actual pushing. The main reason I love Russia in RotR is because of the aesthetics, not the playstyle. This will be a bit of an unnatural change for me, but I'll attempt to integrate it. Regarding defense in depth, I'm partial to staggered defense in depth with mobile reserves. I just think the ECA's is more..... beautiful if there is at least a single Maginot line in there.

Re: ComradeCrimson
"you get collectively better at the game if you play random everytime and are forced to play everything."

I figured as much, but I just wasn't sure when to exactly start doing that, and I think you are suggesting from the onset. I will actually follow your suggestion, but I need to get a little bit more comfortable with managing USA airforce before going pure random. I'll watch a few Le Bruce plays before going pure random.

Re: TimeBurner
Stop chopping those onions. And how they butchered RA3 QQ.

Re: Brock
I'm confused... isn't Nighthawk tier 2? I don't think that qualifies as a rush tongue.gif

Re: iPod and Timeburner
Maybe we can do a 1v1v1 =D


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Guard Llama
post 1 May 2015, 0:58
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QUOTE (ComradeCrimson @ 30 Apr 2015, 6:33) *
Just to shoot down the other people who are promoting to be specialists-

Yes. You can do that; but going random is an option as well. I don't care what Attus or others say, you get collectively better at the game if you play random everytime and are forced to play everything.

I stated what I needed to state; but generally speaking you need to find people who can train you by being more experienced is the best start, learning from your mistakes and watching replays.

Going random everytime also teaches you about every faction, and if you ever do decide to go with one faction, you at the very least know the mechanics of who you are fighting. Which will help you when you are bringing your Russian tanks to that seemingly empty GLA base, and then it turns out half your vehicles were hijacked and the rest of the buggers in their base barfed out of tunnels, blowing up your forces with grads or buggies and other units.

Picking one faction is the weak man's way out. Play them all, get better at them all if you want to improve your overall performance.


I don't think anyone disagrees that you can play random all the time and you'll get better. In addition, I think its a given that you need to at least play a few matches against an AI to learn all the units and the basic mechanics of each faction in the game.

What I am proposing though is that you will probably experience your first PvP win a lot quicker if you focus on a single faction. I don't want someone to become discouraged when they lose game after game because every game they have to try and remember what mistakes they made with a certain faction the last time they played as that faction. Getting a win is a big motivator to stick with a game, and I want people to stick with this game so I would encourage a new PvP player to try a method (sticking with one faction) which will lead to achieving that win quicker.

I'm not saying that people need to be specialists forever, but it's a whole lot easier to learn about things like stealth detection, transitioning into a secondary eco, properly micro-ing your units, etc when you're always playing with the same set of buildings and units. Once you've learned the basics, by all means, go and try out the other factions; play random for the rest of your ROTR days.

This post has been edited by Guard Llama: 1 May 2015, 0:59
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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 1 May 2015, 1:46
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Playing random teaches you not only how to play as every faction, but it also teaches you their weaknesses, allowing you to be a better more knowledgeable player.


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