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SWR Productions Forum _ Rise of the Reds _ China

Posted by: XoGamer 13 Mar 2017, 8:51

Due to the US redesign in 1.87 and GLA''s redesign in 1.85, is it safe to assume that China might be getting a redesign? For me, China feels the least changed and therefore it feels like it has the blandest gameplay out of all the factions due to it being too close to its original ZH gameplay.

However, it's completely acceptable if you want to keep all those features and redesigns etc. Until 2.0 and don't want to spoil anything.

Thanks.

Posted by: SoraZ 13 Mar 2017, 10:48

China is not planned to receive any large "redesigns", no.

Posted by: re_simeone 13 Mar 2017, 11:18

I am big fan of MiG-21, but from the design perspective, MiG-21 is Appache and Abrams of OPFOR.
I hope somewhere in future it will get replaced with something more original.

Posted by: M01 14 Mar 2017, 9:13

I actually like the current models of the original factions building [referring to USA and China] but their textures are killin' me they just seem out of place unlike the other factions.

USA and China not changing how some of their buildings look/designed & stay the same throughout the years (and shit) [lore wise] it just dry.gif: meh

Posted by: Zion 14 Mar 2017, 14:18

I think the usa china textures are good, they always looked good.
and if these factions were going to get a design overhaul, then id say that should be another mod
currently ROTR is be best looking mod of all time.
unless you like old style ww1 looks then cold war crysis is a good one too

Posted by: NikCaputnic 14 Mar 2017, 16:52

IMHO, there are only two things which need texture updates. First is the Hummvee: sharper door textures, and some more details on its frontal hood, like more sharper texture of its air- intaker, nothing more. Another one is IL-76 Candid: its texture is actually OK, but the model seems to have too boxy engines (they seem not round, but like made of rectangles placed in the form of circle).

Posted by: XoGamer 14 Mar 2017, 19:43

Nah when I was thinking redesigns I was mostly thinking gameplay rehauls like USA's Drone Control Center thing. China seems to be lacking many good upgrades rn, like the troop crawler upgrade is crap - I don't even use them I prefer speakerlords.

Although this is all opinionated, nvm anymore biggrin.gif

Posted by: Maelstrom 15 Mar 2017, 0:04

QUOTE (XoGamer @ 14 Mar 2017, 19:43) *
China seems to be lacking many good upgrades rn, like the troop crawler upgrade is crap - I don't even use them I prefer speakerlords

Well, you have a point here. The troop crawler recon kit is one of those rare upgrades that benefit only to 1 specific unit. And it is a concept that I dislike myself. But for balance reasons, it will likely stay as is.

As for Speakerlords, keep in mind:
- In 1.86/1.87, Overlords require a GP
- In 2.0, Only General Chen will have Overlords.

Posted by: ZunZero97 16 Mar 2017, 8:19

QUOTE (XoGamer @ 14 Mar 2017, 15:43) *
Nah when I was thinking redesigns I was mostly thinking gameplay rehauls like USA's Drone Control Center thing. China seems to be lacking many good upgrades rn, like the troop crawler upgrade is crap - I don't even use them I prefer speakerlords.

Although this is all opinionated, nvm anymore biggrin.gif

Seems you are new in ROTR welcome!
China is focused on overpass the enemy's army, this means in LARGE numbers to gain the bonus called Horde Bonus.

Posted by: Skitt 16 Mar 2017, 8:55

^^^ not exactly large zun...
you only need 5 in a group to gain horde bonus.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 16 Mar 2017, 15:35

I have to agree with @XoGamer.

While the other factions received positive changes in gameplay China only received the ROTR' characteristic trait: New "Tier System"; but there are no significant changes in gameplay in order to make the faction more unique as happened with the others. The tactics of most of the China players is to produce units in number, upgrade the Black Napalm and Nationalism (Inferno C + Overlords + Volunteers) and attack... which is very boring...

This gameplay of China reminds the old C&Cs, where you did not depend on a more elaborate tactic to beat, you just had to produce units in numbers and attack (problem similar to that of pre-1.86 Russia).

I miss in China's gameplay of some more specific upgrade for a particular unit or more units with multiple functions and abilities. Another problem is how come easy is to create units in mass in WF and Barracks when choosing "Mass Mobilization" (probably 70% of players choose "Mass Mobilization"); I would like to see a Warfactory or Barracks specific to produce these units in quantity, to force the player to make a choice of gameplay (not just the click of a button); on the other hand I understand that this requires extra work.

The current gameplay is a bit boring but is not something OP or unbalanced; "China is what it is..." but it could be better in my opinion.


Posted by: X1Destroy 16 Mar 2017, 15:55

There isn't much that can be done about it anyway. USA hightech and skill theme have plenty of room to expand, but China's 50s era overwhelming numbers and nuking the whole world themes pretty much limited it from having a complete redesign.

Well, at least in 2.0 we will have secret police.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 16 Mar 2017, 16:07

QUOTE (X1Destroy @ 16 Mar 2017, 11:55) *
There isn't much that can be done about it anyway. USA hightech and skill theme have plenty of room to expand, but China's 50s era overwhelming numbers and nuking the whole world themes pretty much limited it from having a complete redesign.

Well, at least in 2.0 we will have secret police.

Talking about this: I think the player should have more access to a more current technology with China, which should cause some restrictions in Tech Tree, making the player choose between producing units in quantity or in a more tactical way with less units; If these choices are restricted exclusively to a General (Secret Police) we will have other two generals that will possibly replicate the China's current gameplay, which does not seem to be fun...

Posted by: XoGamer 16 Mar 2017, 17:02

QUOTE (ZunZero97 @ 16 Mar 2017, 7:19) *
Seems you are new in ROTR welcome!
China is focused on overpass the enemy's army, this means in LARGE numbers to gain the bonus called Horde Bonus.


My account is more than a year old laugh.gif
So yes, I do know how China works and everything, I've been playing since about 1.802 update (except I don't post often), but recently, (the things already mentioned everything above)
I was slightly curious about how stale China's gameplay feels,

However again,
It's still just opinionated biggrin.gif

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 16 Mar 2017, 19:06

I did an analysis about some things that I think are not so cool right now in China's faction and that could improve, to make it easier to understand what I said before.

UNITS

Volunteer Squad: It really is just cannon fodder; although it is something relatively effective is not very creative, because it does not have the same dynamics of Angry Mob for exemple; also receive ony the Nationalism upgrade, no receive an ability that makes it more iconic or fun to use.

Hopper: It's practically a copy of Battlemaster (but I find Battlemaster more fun), shares the same upgrades and therefore receives similar benefits, something is missing to make this unit more interesting...

Nukeneer: It makes the use of nuclear energy excessively banal (ZH-style/main-theme problem); is very linear: "hold and fire" and only gets the Nationalism upgrade.

Nuke Cannon: It makes the use of nuclear energy excessively banal (ZH-style/main-theme problem); is very linear: "hold and fire" and only gets the Nationalism upgrade. I preferred a slightly more tactical unit than just a vehicle that would "deploy and vaporize..." specific upgrades or some extra ability could help in this direction.

UPGRADES

Black Napalm: Honestly this upgrade is something that has become redundant due to its being mandatory; You will most likely produce Inferno and Shenlong and due to the fact that you unlock Napalm Strike there will be a 90% chance that you will take this upgrade to maximize your ability to deal damage. Napalm-based units are already capable to do what they are meant to do: Destroy light and medium vehicles and structures (firestorm, Napal Strike) and receive enough benefits for this, the Black Napalm is just a luxury (is in-line with the ZH anthax beta).
----

China main theme: At first glance the theme "50s, large-scale nuclear-based weapons, propaganda, electronic warfare, etc." seems to be somewhat saturated but I believe it can still be better explored; for example "propaganda": it could allow more options to the player, maybe some place where the player would choose some specific propaganda and that would bring some specific benefit to all units or a group of units (same mechanics of the USA Strategy Center), or (if possible), choose by clicking on the unit what would be the benefit of the "horde bonus", etc.

In short, are just ideas to stimulate the creativity of the developers in this sense, I would like to see China not so linear....

Posted by: SoraZ 16 Mar 2017, 19:46

QUOTE (__CrUsHeR @ 16 Mar 2017, 19:06) *
Volunteer Squad: It really is just cannon fodder; although it is something relatively effective is not very creative, because it does not have the same dynamics of Angry Mob for exemple; also receive ony the Nationalism upgrade, no receive an ability that makes it more iconic or fun to use.

It's intentionally cannon fodder, straight-forward spam is China's forte and this unit exemplifies it. It also intentionally doesn't regenerate, because then the unit (due to having 2 missile guys and the regeneration NOT being random) could end up with only missile guys, making it much stronger than intended.

QUOTE (__CrUsHeR @ 16 Mar 2017, 19:06) *
Hopper: It's practically a copy of Battlemaster (but I find Battlemaster more fun), shares the same upgrades and therefore receives similar benefits, something is missing to make this unit more interesting...

Like the Spotter ability?

QUOTE (__CrUsHeR @ 16 Mar 2017, 19:06) *
Nukeneer: It makes the use of nuclear energy excessively banal (ZH-style/main-theme problem); is very linear: "hold and fire" and only gets the Nationalism upgrade.

Since it's an exclusive of the "rush in and kill stuff" General Mau, that's intentional. Same is true for the Nuke Cannon.

Mau is not about crazy tricks etc, these two units are perfectly in line with his doctrine. If you want China with dirty tricks, you'll want to play Jin.

QUOTE (__CrUsHeR @ 16 Mar 2017, 19:06) *
Black Napalm: Honestly this upgrade is something that has become redundant due to its being mandatory; You will most likely produce Inferno and Shenlong and due to the fact that you unlock Napalm Strike there will be a 90% chance that you will take this upgrade to maximize your ability to deal damage. Napalm-based units are already capable to do what they are meant to do: Destroy light and medium vehicles and structures (firestorm, Napal Strike) and receive enough benefits for this, the Black Napalm is just a luxury (is in-line with the ZH anthax beta).

Since it's an exclusive for Mau, this won't change.

QUOTE (__CrUsHeR @ 16 Mar 2017, 19:06) *
China main theme: At first glance the theme "50s, large-scale nuclear-based weapons, propaganda, electronic warfare, etc." seems to be somewhat saturated but I believe it can still be better explored; for example "propaganda": it could allow more options to the player, maybe some place where the player would choose some specific propaganda and that would bring some specific benefit to all units or a group of units (same mechanics of the USA Strategy Center), or (if possible), choose by clicking on the unit what would be the benefit of the "horde bonus", etc.

In short, are just ideas to stimulate the creativity of the developers in this sense, I would like to see China not so linear....

None of these ideas are feasible in the way China is intended to be played, i.e. straight-forward spam, and some of them are flat-out not codable. Also, there already is a War Propaganda Gen Power that allows you to play around a little more, you might want to try it.

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 17 Mar 2017, 4:07

QUOTE (SoraZ @ 16 Mar 2017, 20:46) *
Like the Spotter ability?

Actually, i agree with this. The spotter ability is pretty useless when listening outposts exist and are untracable most of the time. Not to mention they do the scouting job earlier, cheaper and better.

Posted by: Lobo Solitario 17 Mar 2017, 11:16

1) Maybe wait until the generals are out, as at least one of them looks like he will diversify China's gameplay quite a lot - right now it's a mess of units from different generals
2) Play a different faction? The whole point of the factions is to cater to different playstyles - China is the one for the "C&C" players who like straightforward spam. If the faction is changed, or made more complex to suit one set of players' tastes, another set of players will be left out.

Posted by: (USA)Bruce 18 Mar 2017, 18:46

I read up on the chat, fun stuff all around

QUOTE (NikCaputnic @ 14 Mar 2017, 18:52) *
IMHO, there are only two things which need texture updates. First is the Hummvee: sharper door textures, and some more details on its frontal hood, like more sharper texture of its air- intaker, nothing more. Another one is IL-76 Candid: its texture is actually OK, but the model seems to have too boxy engines (they seem not round, but like made of rectangles placed in the form of circle).


For reasons I cannot say the IL-76 wont be getting an update ph34r.gif

As for the nukeneers, they just need to get rid of that pesky prefire delay so you can use them like the starcraft 2 protoss shuttle, hit and run style with troop crawlers

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 18 Mar 2017, 22:39

Warp Prism* Bruce.
Shuttles were in sc1.

But yeah, drop nukes would be amazing biggrin.gif

Posted by: (USA)Bruce 18 Mar 2017, 23:13

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 19 Mar 2017, 0:39) *
Warp Prism* Bruce.
Shuttles were in sc1.

But yeah, drop nukes would be amazing biggrin.gif


I was Indeed quoting shuttles from starcraft 1 cause the cattapillar robot thingy isnt in starcraft 2 bro

Posted by: ZunZero97 24 Mar 2017, 21:03

Im agree to add a new technology to China

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 24 Mar 2017, 22:34

Honestly, what more could you add to china that they dont have already?

Posted by: XoGamer 25 Mar 2017, 10:02

More mines...?
Mine upgrade?
Idk nvm, I don't want to turn this into suggestions thread

Posted by: XAttus 25 Mar 2017, 13:31

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 24 Mar 2017, 22:34) *
Honestly, what more could you add to china that they dont have already?


Something to kill the motherfucking Boris with - without spending GPs.

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 25 Mar 2017, 13:34

Minigunners? hellfires? just generally covering your flanks or just bum rushing him with units?

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 25 Mar 2017, 16:08

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 24 Mar 2017, 18:34) *
Honestly, what more could you add to china that they dont have already?

Anything that makes the faction more attractive from a point of view aimed to a more polished, diversified and attractive gameplay.

The issue would not, in my view, cover technical problems related to balancing; simply does not seem to be as fun as the other factions... the faction's gameplay style would have to be rethought.

Posted by: Hanfield 25 Mar 2017, 18:16

Too bad currency manipulation isn't an in-game mechanic :V

Posted by: XoGamer 25 Mar 2017, 22:54

Why

Posted by: ZunZero97 26 Mar 2017, 6:59

The thing is China still using flak weapons in the year 2342(i suppose)
Maybe implement some new tecnology to China likely when the devs added the recycler system.

Posted by: Jet02 26 Mar 2017, 7:27

*2047. If it were 2342 we would probably be playing with quantum teleporters and plasma rifles by now.(to think of it, why no plasma weaponry in rotr?)

Take a look at the gla arsenal. Now THAT is ancient.

And iirc current chinese tech is gonna stay for good. Except maybe for general Jin if i'm not wrong. J-20s, maybe a modern spec ops unit?

Also(again) just how effective can flak be against armoured targets?

Posted by: XoGamer 26 Mar 2017, 9:05

Hmm I was thinking of maybe an upgrade that would increase the survivability of Chinese tanks by increasing their health by a little? Maybe something like increased tank armour/health for 1500-2500, makes them more cost effective tongue.gif

Posted by: Hanfield 26 Mar 2017, 13:14

QUOTE (ZunZero97 @ 26 Mar 2017, 7:59) *
The thing is China still using flak weapons in the year 2342(i suppose)
Maybe implement some new tecnology to China likely when the devs added the recycler system.

Russia is still using AK-74s in the 24th century, then :V

Posted by: X1Destroy 26 Mar 2017, 13:28

QUOTE
why no plasma weaponry in rotr?


AT drone have plasma torches that melt tanks, but that's all. Anything more and it's gonna be over the top like Alexander in Shockwave.

Posted by: Neutrino 26 Mar 2017, 13:38

China can draw exquisite paintings of napalm, emp and nukes.

Its also a steamroller faction based on firepower (chain guns, black napalm and nuclear shots) and not armour. Why should it be redesigned? As a faction it's fun, diverse and easy to play
(provided you always choose nuke GP tongue.gif jk)

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 26 Mar 2017, 14:16

I do not see a problem with flak guns, or any other old technology revived by ROTR, the problem is when the faction gets stuck with these technologies and this restricts the fun; If this is a reason for such creativity or gameplay limitations I am in favor of modernizing China's arsenal.

Returning to the problem of "Mass Mobilization": Troop Crawler has lost its main function (It was fun) that should be to transport infantry (vGen, ZH) due to the fact that it is much more practical to send infantry in quantity walking than in transport, Battlemaster lost space for its miniaturized version, Tankneer, (even more generic than the Battlemaster) which is more economical and interesting in numbers, some examples...

Another point: the possible combos for artillery like the Inferno Cannon are ridiculously powerful, there are three possible upgrades dedicated to increase the damage of this unit which is an exaggeration; I also think that the Horde Bonus has become banal for the faction when it was once a privilege.

Posted by: Neo 26 Mar 2017, 14:42

I think China's gameplay design change instead of units' design etc. Because, China got a lot of new stuff such as volunteer squad, hopper tank, shenlong etc. as well as new gps. We should expect more changes for China's arsenal in the future.

Posted by: MARS 26 Mar 2017, 15:03

I just want to point out that there is absolutely nothing inherently 'outdated' about the weapons associated with the term 'flak' in ROTR. It may not be a special fancy-tech kind of weapon, but virtually every dedicated anti-aircraft weapon today works the same way: A thing that people often forget, due to incorrect yet iconic depictions in media, is that anti-aircraft missiles and even the shells that came before them generally don't destroy a flying target via direct impact and explosive power but through fragmentation. The missile/shell is generally programmed to explode near the target and tear it apart with a hail of fragments. More sophisticated systems consist of an expanding rod, where the explosion rapidly expands a cylinder of connected metal rods into a ring shape that cuts through the target.

The Chinese flak weapons in-game work by the previous principle of airburst fragmentation, which isn't outdated by any means, and it could be argued that the missiles used to carry those fragmenting explosive warheads to their targets - like the ones fired by the MiG - possess modern, up-to-date guidance, navigation and engines, considering that they're just as reliable as the missiles used by Raptors and Berkuts. Based on their performance in-game, one could even speculate further that China has actually perfected the concept of programmed airbursting fragmentation warheads at least to the same level as the ECA (their canister shells utilise the same principle) because American and Russian air-to-air missiles, which presumably work the same way as they do in real life, do not have the splashy area effect that you see on a Chinese MiG or Tank Hunter/Twinfang shells.

Even the Tank Hunter's weapon could be considered more advanced than it seems on the level of abstraction seen in-game: It is a recoilless rifle that is somehow capable of reliably hitting helicopters and low-flying aircraft, which has to be made possible by some high-quality weapon sights and likely some kind of ballistic computer to properly track a fast-moving target and program the shell accordingly. The shells themselves are also powerful enough to reach and destroy these targets, which can be anything from a thinly armoured aircraft to a battle tank, though I personally imagine that they would be using some kind of HEAT or even kinetic shell when firing at ground vehicles, which the game would logically omit for the sake of abstraction.

Point is, there is nothing inherently outdated about the Chinese flak weapons, because the simple principle of 'hit target with an explosively formed shotgun blast of metal pieces' is in itself pretty timeless.

Posted by: re_simeone 26 Mar 2017, 16:54

Ask me... (But nobody really did)
*SUGGESTION ALERT !!*
I would add static Flak Cannon to China, actually maybe one General, as a nod to RA2.

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 26 Mar 2017, 22:39

This is getting suggesty, and why does china need more aa?
They literally have the Win fang, the best t2aa in the game, they have migs, they have gats and tank hunters too. They don't need more aa.

What most of you aren't realising is that currently china is the ONLY faction in the game that can handle every situation effectively and evenly at every stage of the game. China has no serious weaknesses anywhere because all of its units are responsive, varied and above all else (unlike a considerable amount of other factions in the game) all of china's units are useful.

The only weakness that china really has is getting dicked by Boris, but even then thats such a minor weakness that can be delt with that its more of a player issue than a design one.

QUOTE
Anything that makes the faction more attractive from a point of view aimed to a more polished, diversified and attractive gameplay.

China literally has this more than any other faction in the game currently, and it cant really do more/get more added that wouldnt break this effect.

QUOTE
We should expect more changes for China's arsenal in the future.

No, we shoudlnt. China is in a good spot already, it doesn't need anything more in terms of units.

QUOTE
The thing is China still using flak weapons in the year 2342(

2042-2045 not 2342. Not sure if that is a typo, but if it isnt i suggest you re-read the lore entries Zun.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 26 Mar 2017, 23:37

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 26 Mar 2017, 18:39) *
China literally has this more than any other faction in the game currently, and it cant really do more/get more added that wouldnt break this effect.

Okay, I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree with it.

Posted by: Rohan 27 Mar 2017, 5:40

Some thoughts on China :-

China seems to be over the top when it comes to unit visual effects. Like once you reach the mid game, every unit has a Propaganda star, Horde bonus decal and due to the usage of troop crawlers and ecm tanks there are unit range auras everywhere. It just doesn't give a good feeling when the visual effects are so much that you cannot focus on the unit models themselves. This problem gets enhanced due to the spam tactics of China. It ends up making China a circus show faction.

The second issue is that Propganda and Horde bonuses have become too mainstream and easy to access. This has taken away the challenge factor which was present in ZH China. The Troop Crawler in my opinion is one of the most bloated units in ROTR with just too many abilities.

I think making China a bit challenging to play is the right direction to make this faction on par to the other four. That and the visual effects need a rework.

Posted by: Rohan 27 Mar 2017, 5:59

I cannot edit my post for some reason but I wanted to add this.

The second issue interestingly ties to the first point as making these bonuses mainstream is what has caused the visual overload of China.


Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 27 Mar 2017, 8:51

QUOTE (__CrUsHeR @ 27 Mar 2017, 0:37) *
Okay, I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree with it.


Im curious as to what specifics you consider that china needs?

Because the only thing i can think of is a reactive boris counter rather than a pre-emptive counter.

Posted by: M01 27 Mar 2017, 10:15

@Rohan

Isn't the horde bonus effective once it has been upgraded???

This shouldn't be a problem since it's one (I Think) of the general Exclusive upgrade (Chen-> Nationalism)

I like China's current unit list they perfectly synergizes with one another, anything "new" should just be a general exclusive

Posted by: Jet02 27 Mar 2017, 11:48

How is boris supposed to be a problem?

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 27 Mar 2017, 13:02

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 27 Mar 2017, 4:51) *
Im curious as to what specifics you consider that china needs?

Because the only thing i can think of is a reactive boris counter rather than a pre-emptive counter.

If you are satisfied with the current gameplay of China you will only need one or other adjustment related to the balancing, however if you analyze China as a faction that needs to be improved and polished for not being up to par of other factions (gameplay, faction desing, etc), you will see that a lot of things would need to be rethought.

As I commented and the other players commented on China, some main themes of the faction were saturated to the point of being banalized (Napalm, Horde Bonus, Nuke, Mass Mobilization, etc.), and consequently some combos became boring by pushes the player to a "brainless gameplay".

I want to avoid giving suggestions, so this is in fact only a criticism of China's current gameplay.

Posted by: Hanfield 27 Mar 2017, 13:08

QUOTE (Jet02 @ 27 Mar 2017, 12:48) *
How is boris supposed to be a problem?

When your only counter to him is a nuke cannon, when the other methods are either unresponsive or shot down by Grumbles, he becomes a problem :V

Posted by: XoGamer 27 Mar 2017, 17:59

technically you can counter him with inferno cannon

Although, other vanilla factions already have a great mix of their future generals but China seems to be missing quite a bit of Secret Police general - I think China is missing subversive tactics

Posted by: Rohan 27 Mar 2017, 21:40

QUOTE (M01 @ 27 Mar 2017, 14:45) *
@Rohan

Isn't the horde bonus effective once it has been upgraded???

This shouldn't be a problem since it's one (I Think) of the general Exclusive upgrade (Chen-> Nationalism)

I like China's current unit list they perfectly synergizes with one another, anything "new" should just be a general exclusive


I don't know, you should ask a tester. :hmm

The issue is that all units have access to the bonus which as Crusher said makes it banal but also makes the faction look messy because the graphical effects goes over the top. To give my point substance, here are some screenshots :-

Zero Hour Chinese Army Composition : http://i67.tinypic.com/bia1s1.jpg
Very clean look because the bonus auras are restricted.

Compare this to

ROTR Chinese Army Composition : http://i68.tinypic.com/352rtip.jpg
Doesn't look good because of the Horde and Propoganda decals going over the top.

Even in gameplay, Chinese armies are not very attractive or interesting to look at because they are an eyesore due to excessive decals : http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv82/Haths/sshot027.jpg

Compare and consider how good the USA Army looks far better and appealing in comparison to the Chinese Army : http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/5/4333/3.1.jpg and http://rotr.swr-productions.com/get_screenshot.php?page=full&screenshot_id=131


Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 27 Mar 2017, 22:58

rohan, just get the aura remover from the moddb page, because those icons are useful information for the player and they aren't going anywhere

Posted by: Mizo 27 Mar 2017, 23:53

I don't understand what's the end goal of this discussion. All am seeing is complains about China's main faction theme which is Quantity over Quality firepower to be a boring playstyle , hence subtly asking/suggesting it to be changed/different to make things 'more interesting'.

Implications of these subtle suggestions would be the complete removal of the horde mechanic to make things "look prettier" , as well as a re-invention of nuclear and napalm weapons to be something completely different ( to what and how is something I have no clue about because what else do you want blazing fire and small-ordinance nuclear explosions that leaves lingering radiation field that mels everything, to do?

China has always been a straight forward faction to play even back in Vanilla generals, were it kept its overwhelming numbers theme while also filling in the bruteforce steamroller role as well via heaviest tanks in the game.

Now Russia exists, and the steamroll role is moved to them. In order to create a diverse set of factions, you have to abuse everything the engine has to offer, and give each of the factions their unique attributes to match the diversity of the original game.

As a result, China was given thr Overwhelming numbers to be their primary theme ( proven perfectly through the mechanic of horde bonus on all units, to encourage you to bulk them in numbers) as well as high area firepower, with some disruptive capabities newly added to the mix. All of these roles will be further exaggerated when the generals are split, being a spammer oriented/firepower oriented/disruptive oriented). Saying that one or two of these playstyles are boring is rather pointless since the point of this is to add diversity in playstyles . Mass Mobilization is a unique rank 1 to General Chen for example, which makes sense given the fact that he is the Mass Army General. All of the nuclear stuff belongs to General Mau who excels in high area firepower, which makes sense as one shot from a nuke cannon would decimate entire army groups.

So really, all this complains stems from the fact that China lacks subversive flare to them ( i.e General Jin units), and would rather revamp the current faction to include more 'interesting yet fitting' stuff. To that I say "hell no.." because the faction is bloated as hell and it'd be pointless to exclude somethings now in favour of this "interesting flare" you all desire, as it gives more balance headaches as well as it being time consuming to implement. So for now, lets be patient and wait.

If these tactics don't interest you, then you are welcome to try different factions since ROTR ( and the soon to be generals) will cover most if not all possible playstyle preferences that a player can endulge upon.

Some people hate and can't stand playing as ECA for example, due to their stail playstyle thst involves playing the waiting game rather than marching forward full gun blazing. Some people dislike slow factions like Russia and prefer a more mobile and dynamic faction such as the likes of GLA nd USA. A good portion of people prefer direct firepower through Russia and China's arsenl of units over the subversive style GLA / the heavy micromanagement nature of USA's units. A few thrive with units that possess high micro potential that can skyrocket their efficiency if played correctly, hence they lean over USA.

This really reminds me of a this talk about wanting ECA to play like Russia in the testing team by improving their units to be more geared towards offensive, and the response to them will always tell them to go play Russia instead.

Stuff are just the way they are for diversity's sake, and will be further expanded upon in 2.0.

As for addressing specific points :

- Horde Bonus is the way it is to apply a faction theme through mechanics rather than outright telling you to spam them in thr tooltips. It's crowded visually, but there isn't really any applicable way to make 'spam' more mechanically influential rather than having the typical " more units = win" that every faction can achieve with cash.

- Abundance of Propeganda is due to bloating. There are 4 sources, 1 of which is stationary while the other 2 ( being overlords and airships, belong to different generals completely) . So really the only core unit right now is the troop crawler that provides it, and in the grand scheme of things that's not as abundant as what you say.

- Battlemaster vs Hoppertanks. Each have their own role. Hoppers are good recon and harass units due to their easiness to horde and speed as well as the spotter ability, while battlemaster scales better due to better survivability and damage when horded. There isn't 1 that's outright superior to the other.

- "Nuclear and Napalm is becoming Banal" , perhaps but then again what else can you do within the limits of the engine that can be applied to Chinese units thst fits within their respective faction/general theme, while not overlapping with others? The confines of Neutron/Conventional airbust/cluster weapons is for ECA, Bio-weapons/High Demolitionis for GLA, Rail/Coil guns , Tesla and thermobaric weapons are covered by Russia, and Lazer, Advanced tactical missile, Cruise missiles and microwave themed weapons are USA's. What else can be done within the game engine that would fit China and properly replace the Nuclear and Napalm weaponry themes? Pretty hard to come up with something creative or more interesting that isn't somehow covered by other factions ( I have not listed everything ofcourse because NDA, but am pretty sure this task is not something one can think off the fly like that). So yes for now we're sticking to Napalm and Nuke weaponary because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Better to hsve the generic Nuke and Napalm tha having something either too obscure and unfitting for the game design wise , or having something that heavily overlaps with other stuff both visually and mechanically. As of now the mechanical difference between Nukes and any other weapon is that its radiation field melts everything, while the Napalm is the generic burst damage over time.

Posted by: XoGamer 28 Mar 2017, 7:59

Yep, waiting for 2.0 it is tongue.gif

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 28 Mar 2017, 13:00

I would like to explain first of all that I like all the mechanics incorporated in China and I do not think that any of them should leave the faction; instead, I would like to argue that some of them should be revised, the Horde Bonus system, which as it was said is very easy to be "activated", another point that I think is whether it should be extended to all units as it currently is, in the VGen was something that only favored the Overlord and the Battlemaster making them more iconic and true frontline war machines.

About the topics I mentioned before: Napalm: As I argued before is a very cool theme for China however I get the impression that the Black Napalm is already a redundant upgrade that fit the ZH proposal but not the current ROTR proposal. Napalm-based units are ok in my opinion and fit well in China's framework (usually more tactical units that need to be used in flank attacks). Nuke: Wisely in vGen China's nuclear power was restrained to the max (Nuke Cannon, "nuke tanks") and the most powerful upgrades were devoted to this issue for obvious reasons. In ROTR these powers were released indiscriminately (practically on the same level as napalm) which seems to me a problem (it would be like General Tao being part of the ROTR' cast). Propaganda: A great theme of the faction that has not been used up until now (just a generic upgrade)... it could be much more inspiring to think in a China with propaganda than with weapons of mass destruction on all sides; some new mechanics involving the theme (waiting for Gen Jin)... "Mass Mobilization": Something that seems to be very cool at first sight, in practice not so much; probably this theme has ruined a good part of the gameplay of China and took away the importance of some classic units of China (Troop Crawler, Battlemaster, etc); this gameplay is the most basic possible within the ROTR universe and primary in C&C games; if you have resources to click on the production units and send to the frontline, it would not be a problem for example in Red Alert or RA2, but for a complex game As the ROTR simply became obsolete in face of the other incorporated tactics. It is still a resource to be explored but needs special care in order not to detract from the "ROTR' special gameplay".

I would also like to explain that China's gameplay learning curve is minimal compared to the other factions, and there is a chasm between ECA's gameplay for example with China's gameplay, which should not occur within the same game. I even took years to understand the gameplay of the GLA, assimilate the microplaying of USA, carefully manage the resources with Russia, and understand the defenses of ECA, with China you do not have this moment, this is a problem...

Posted by: Mizo 28 Mar 2017, 17:30

QUOTE
Horde Bonus system, which as it was said is very easy to be "activated


How does this remove the need of troop crawlers and classic tactics? You can still do infantry Transportations within Troopcrawlers, and they are still an important source Propeganda.

Also why wouldn't horde be passed by all units? The main idea is that the red army feel inspired fighting near each other, that it makes them fighter. I don't think this is a mechanic flaw ( to extend something that was slightly trivial and unimportant in vanilla generals to something essential for most of their units to operate at optimal capacity). It can be argued that it's easier to achieve in order to make hording more user-friendly rather than having your core units only rely on being in groups of 5 to get their normal unit efficiency. It also helps to keep very powerful artillery/other units like infernos so that they need the horde bonus to preform normally rather than having them at their optimal efficiency from get go ( essentially would require ridiculous nerfs to balance out). It's easier to factor in horde bonus for all units at this point, since it makes scaling firepower of spammable cheap units easier , while also fitting in the main faction theme that is mass numbers.

QUOTE
Black Napalm is already a redundant upgrade that fit the ZH proposal but not the current ROTR proposal.


Doesn't make any sense, since the upgrade is unique to General Mao. This is one of the ways to give him "better infernos/hellfires/Dragon Tanks , and upscaling his unique shenlongs rather than having some generic "qhite Napalm" or "Advanced Inferno cannon" or "advanced Dragon Tank" that really serves no distinction other than being a statistically better unit. , which is typical and boring.

This method of passing a current upgrade that seems generic and boring to turn it into something more exotic ( as a unique upgrade ) is going to probably be applied elsewhere.

QUOTE
Nuke: Wisely in vGen China's nuclear power was restrained to the max (Nuke Cannon, "nuke tanks") and the most powerful upgrades were devoted to this issue for obvious reasons. In ROTR these powers were released indiscriminately


This still doesn't address what I stated above. What other theme could be applied to replace nuclear based weapons that wouldn't be copy paste or a rip-off of other weapons from other generals while still fitting within the specialty of what Mao has to offer , which area firepower.
It's all about diversity, fitting playstyle, and playing off by the rule of cool ( because while you feel nuclear weapons are saturated now, other people enjoy the blasts and find it rather cool).

QUOTE
it could be much more inspiring to think in a China


Implying that this should replace nuclear weaponary? ( because screaming at people with zeal.and patriotism will cause the same.effect on the enemy as of that of a nuke , but that's probably not what you meant). Also this theme bas already been expanded upon, through Frenzy and Spotlight War Propaganda, and the game engine can't really handle any more types buffs so really, what else can you do with it?

QUOTE
Mass Mobilization": Something that seems to be very cool at first sight, in practice not so much; probably this theme has ruined a good part of the gameplay


The spam theme ruined China as a whole? I wouldn't really state this as an objective fact because a good portion of the community here do enjoy large armies.
I could aegue that this theme is a nessessity to create a faction that feels unique from the other 4 , while not having any overlaps ( because REALLY what else can you make China be based on theme wise? Cost efficent tanks that are high quality is covered by Russia, fanaticism and sacrifice is covered by GLA, artillery is covered by ECA, what else can China do that would make them completely stand out from the rest that is possible within the game's engine?

If you come up worth 1 theme, then divide it into 3 generals, thst has to carry the main faction theme, 1 of them being the exaggerator of that said theme.

Again this is for diversing the factions to fit unique RTS playstyles, not to make China authentic and 'interesting' ( that comes as a second priority). Heck what a guy may find boring, can be interesting to.others , so it's better to set styles for everyone to get unto, which again, judging by your distaste to the abundance of nuclear weaponary, and spam being a brain dead tactic, China is probably not something you would find personally fun, but others would.

QUOTE
I would also like to explain that China's gameplay learning curve is minimal compared to the other factions,


Been like this since 1.7, China has always been a Beginner friendly faction that's easy to get into, play as and win with. By that I don't mean that it's a newb faction , but rather it's a faction that's rather straight forward and easy to get into, due to their initial simplicity. It also offers deeper mechanics for veterans to abuse and have fun, for example mixing spotlight ECM tanks with overcharge ect...

Russia and.China are easy-to-learn factions, good for.casuals and people who are new. There is nothing wrong in having 'simpler' factions. Not everything has to mechanically intricate like USA or ECA , or have alot of sneaky options as GLA.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 28 Mar 2017, 23:41

QUOTE (Mizo @ 28 Mar 2017, 13:30) *
How does this remove the need of troop crawlers and classic tactics? You can still do infantry Transportations within Troopcrawlers, and they are still an important source Propeganda.

Also why wouldn't horde be passed by all units? The main idea is that the red army feel inspired fighting near each other, that it makes them fighter. I don't think this is a mechanic flaw ( to extend something that was slightly trivial and unimportant in vanilla generals to something essential for most of their units to operate at optimal capacity). It can be argued that it's easier to achieve in order to make hording more user-friendly rather than having your core units only rely on being in groups of 5 to get their normal unit efficiency. It also helps to keep very powerful artillery/other units like infernos so that they need the horde bonus to preform normally rather than having them at their optimal efficiency from get go ( essentially would require ridiculous nerfs to balance out). It's easier to factor in horde bonus for all units at this point, since it makes scaling firepower of spammable cheap units easier , while also fitting in the main faction theme that is mass numbers.


I believe that the horde bonus should not be extended in the way it is currently extended because it makes all Chinese units similar - something that does not seem to be very creative or original - yet as I said before the mechanic itself is interesting, but it is a problem when combined with the effect of "ROTR's China mass units", because you make something that was intentionally limited in something unrestricted (it is very easy to produce tanks in quantity in WF and activate the horde bonus). I do not think that the horde bonus system in vGen or ZH was trivial or unimportant, on the contrary, it was fundamental to decide a game, in ROTR it became irrelevant because in 90% of the times that the game advances you will have active horde bonus; became a rule and not the exception anymore.

QUOTE (Mizo @ 28 Mar 2017, 13:30) *
Doesn't make any sense, since the upgrade is unique to General Mao. This is one of the ways to give him "better infernos/hellfires/Dragon Tanks , and upscaling his unique shenlongs rather than having some generic "qhite Napalm" or "Advanced Inferno cannon" or "advanced Dragon Tank" that really serves no distinction other than being a statistically better unit. , which is typical and boring.

This method of passing a current upgrade that seems generic and boring to turn it into something more exotic ( as a unique upgrade ) is going to probably be applied elsewhere.


Black Napalm's main problem is related to the fact that it directly benefits a powerfull GP Rank 5 of damage that 90% of Chinese players choose, so it's easy to conclude that 90% of players will attempt to purchase this upgrade in order to upgrade its power. Added to this is the fact that it benefits another 30% of China's units (some of the most powerful ones like Shenlong and Inferno Cannon), so it is concluded that 99% of players will choose this upgrade (the same logic as the Capture Building upgrade); so why, after all, does China (or Gen. Mao) need this upgrade?

QUOTE (Mizo @ 28 Mar 2017, 13:30) *
This still doesn't address what I stated above. What other theme could be applied to replace nuclear based weapons that wouldn't be copy paste or a rip-off of other weapons from other generals while still fitting within the specialty of what Mao has to offer , which area firepower.
It's all about diversity, fitting playstyle, and playing off by the rule of cool ( because while you feel nuclear weapons are saturated now, other people enjoy the blasts and find it rather cool).


Probably nothing can be done now about China's abundant nuclear weapons, but somehow it could be tried to make up for this by offering the player alternatives (I will not go into the specific merit of what alternatives these would be in order not to make the discussion into suggestions).

I particularly like the visual effects of the nuclear explosions of China in the game, but I do not really like the idea of seeing soldiers for example blowing up the whole map, even so I understand that many may like it... but it goes against what was said about ROTR to contradict the ZH in terms of style (generalized gameplay).

QUOTE (Mizo @ 28 Mar 2017, 13:30) *
The spam theme ruined China as a whole? I wouldn't really state this as an objective fact because a good portion of the community here do enjoy large armies.
I could aegue that this theme is a nessessity to create a faction that feels unique from the other 4 , while not having any overlaps ( because REALLY what else can you make China be based on theme wise? Cost efficent tanks that are high quality is covered by Russia, fanaticism and sacrifice is covered by GLA, artillery is covered by ECA, what else can China do that would make them completely stand out from the rest that is possible within the game's engine?

If you come up worth 1 theme, then divide it into 3 generals, thst has to carry the main faction theme, 1 of them being the exaggerator of that said theme.

Again this is for diversing the factions to fit unique RTS playstyles, not to make China authentic and 'interesting' ( that comes as a second priority). Heck what a guy may find boring, can be interesting to.others , so it's better to set styles for everyone to get unto, which again, judging by your distaste to the abundance of nuclear weaponary, and spam being a brain dead tactic, China is probably not something you would find personally fun, but others would.


I also like large armies, which is why China is probably my favorite faction in vGen. The problem is in combining several themes that should be restricted in insane combos (even if balanced in some way), such as horde bonus + mass mobilization + black napalm, or horde bonus + mass mobilization + nuclear tank + uranium shells; do you realize how much of this becomes a "step-by-step" rather than a tactic?

But as you said, maybe in version 2.0 that is resolved, as this is currently not much fun for me.

QUOTE (Mizo @ 28 Mar 2017, 13:30) *
Been like this since 1.7, China has always been a Beginner friendly faction that's easy to get into, play as and win with. By that I don't mean that it's a newb faction , but rather it's a faction that's rather straight forward and easy to get into, due to their initial simplicity. It also offers deeper mechanics for veterans to abuse and have fun, for example mixing spotlight ECM tanks with overcharge ect...

Russia and.China are easy-to-learn factions, good for.casuals and people who are new. There is nothing wrong in having 'simpler' factions. Not everything has to mechanically intricate like USA or ECA , or have alot of sneaky options as GLA.


I agree with this statement, but I confess that I expected a leap a little higher since the same applied with the other factions. And Russia, in my opinion, is a faction with an exciting gameplay these days, quite different from yesterday's Russia; the upgrades are well thought, stimulating the player to choose them carefully, there are indeed tactics that need to be well elaborated in order not to lose precious equipment, etc.

Posted by: Mizo 29 Mar 2017, 6:54

QUOTE
Black Napalm's main problem is related to the fact that it directly benefits a powerfull GP Rank 5 of damage that 90% of Chinese players choose, so it's easy to conclude that 90% of players will attempt to purchase this upgrade in order to upgrade its power. Added to this is the fact that it benefits another 30% of China's units (some of the most powerful ones like Shenlong and Inferno Cannon), so it is concluded that 99% of players will choose this upgrade (the same logic as the Capture Building upgrade); so why, after all, does China (or Gen. Mao) need this upgrade?


So you hate the manditory no brainer upgrades that benefits everything in any situation you pick it?

There are alot of upgrades like that in the game however, so I don't really understand why are you bitter about this upgrade in particular.

Things things that come to my mind, AP Bullets that buffs all Bullet based GLA weapons which make up 30% of their roster, or AP Rockets which buffs 70% of GLA's weapons , both in which also buff their defenses.

You also have Gas Ignition Rounds, which is an insta-click upgrade in tier 2 , obligatory for your gun turrents to be able to outrange Buratinos and Blackbears. ( 230 is a pretty shite range). Those are some upgrades that can come to my mind in the same vain of Black Napalm so am really not understanding your issue with it ( if it provides too many bonuses, doesn't that justify it being a unique tier 2 upgrade for one of the generals?). Why do they need this upgrade? Well yo scale up their unirs from genericly good to better.

Like I said, this is one of the methods that will make General Mao's infernos , pyros, hellfires, dragon tanks and Napalm strikes be different from their other counterparts, by scaling them up from good to great, rather than ating the generic "advanced version" which is rather more interesting.

QUOTE
I believe that the horde bonus should not be extended in the way it is currently extended because it makes all Chinese units similar - something that does not seem to be very creative or original - yet as I said before the mechanic itself is interesting, but it is a problem when combined with the effect of "ROTR's China mass units", because you make something that was intentionally limited in something unrestricted (it is very easy to produce tanks in quantity in WF and activate the horde bonus). I do not think that the horde bonus system in vGen or ZH was trivial or unimportant, on the contrary, it was fundamental to decide a game, in ROTR it became irrelevant because in 90% of the times that the game advances you will have active horde bonus; became a rule and not the exception anymore


I see your point here. You hate how typical horde bonus is when prior to that it was a blessing or a luxury. I guess this is just a consequence of turning the bonus to something core ( unlike vanilla, chinese units were rather okay on their own, but become great with the bonus). In ROTR, your units are under 50% of their ROF, they only become 'normalized' when under the initial horde bonus, and get better after Nationalism upgrade. Am guessing horde bonus is easy to achieve to make playing the faction be more accessible rather than a chore.

QUOTE
I also like large armies, which is why China is probably my favorite faction in vGen. The problem is in combining several themes that should be restricted in insane combos (even if balanced in some way), such as horde bonus + mass mobilization + black napalm, or horde bonus + mass mobilization + nuclear tank + uranium shells; do you realize how much of this becomes a "step-by-step" rather than a tactic?


So all of your issie towards the faction in the end stems from the fact China can do several themes incredibly well?
Hah that's just feature bloat. We all hate it as well, but thst's not something that can be resolved until future versions arrive.

Posted by: SoraZ 29 Mar 2017, 10:34

QUOTE (Mizo @ 29 Mar 2017, 7:54) *
So all of your issie towards the faction in the end stems from the fact China can do several themes incredibly well?
Hah that's just feature bloat. We all hate it as well, but thst's not something that can be resolved until future versions arrive.

Indeed, and it will finally be solved in 2.0, and not just for China. Various things which the current factions combine are from different Generals and not intended to be used together outside of maybe team games.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 29 Mar 2017, 11:29

QUOTE (Mizo @ 29 Mar 2017, 2:54) *
So you hate the manditory no brainer upgrades that benefits everything in any situation you pick it?

There are alot of upgrades like that in the game however, so I don't really understand why are you bitter about this upgrade in particular.

Things things that come to my mind, AP Bullets that buffs all Bullet based GLA weapons which make up 30% of their roster, or AP Rockets which buffs 70% of GLA's weapons , both in which also buff their defenses.

You also have Gas Ignition Rounds, which is an insta-click upgrade in tier 2 , obligatory for your gun turrents to be able to outrange Buratinos and Blackbears. ( 230 is a pretty shite range). Those are some upgrades that can come to my mind in the same vain of Black Napalm so am really not understanding your issue with it ( if it provides too many bonuses, doesn't that justify it being a unique tier 2 upgrade for one of the generals?). Why do they need this upgrade? Well yo scale up their unirs from genericly good to better.

Like I said, this is one of the methods that will make General Mao's infernos , pyros, hellfires, dragon tanks and Napalm strikes be different from their other counterparts, by scaling them up from good to great, rather than ating the generic "advanced version" which is rather more interesting.

Hmm, I imagine there's no other mandatory global upgrade in the game like Black Napalm; AP Bullets and AP Rockets do not create insane combos, Gas Ignition Rounds have the same glory as Nuclear Tanks or Uranium Shells from China comparatively and I do not think its existence makes it redundant.

Maybe it will work for Mao, as long as there are no other insane combos as there is currently.

Posted by: Mizo 29 Mar 2017, 12:00

Keep in mind General Mao wont be getting overlords, Mass Mobilization, Communication Interception, ECM tank, Propaganda Airships , so insane combos like spamming tanks + overlords + nuclear artillery won't be possible in the future besides double China in team games.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 29 Mar 2017, 12:08

It's a consolation. The problem is having to wait for it... tongue.gif

Posted by: Mr_JAKH 8 Apr 2017, 4:02

QUOTE (XoGamer @ 14 Mar 2017, 20:43) *
Nah when I was thinking redesigns I was mostly thinking gameplay rehauls like USA's Drone Control Center thing. China seems to be lacking many good upgrades rn, like the troop crawler upgrade is crap - I don't even use them I prefer speakerlords.

Although this is all opinionated, nvm anymore biggrin.gif

If I rembered it right!?O.o' Troop Crawler comes with a 50% raise of durable armor also with the upgrade. Though, I wonder how many people use the War Propaganda ability upgrade in Generals Promotion Tech Tree? That one seems unessery. It would be nice if SWR changed this to something else or add an extra ability for that promotion ability like an upgrade for Battlemaster. My thoughts about this would be a small area of mine drops after it's death on the battlefields. I don't think it will be o.p. I'll guess most folks go for hopper tank if they choose mass production because they come in mass discount 'n' faster buildtime with more (4 in all & only 2000/"creds", normaly 1000 each) at once! Seems Hopper has the same damage output as the Battlemaster, but weaker armor, though faster and scout ability. Good for brute force - guerilla warfare. Just an idea^_^'

Posted by: Mr_JAKH 8 Apr 2017, 4:24

QUOTE (Mr_JAKH @ 8 Apr 2017, 5:02) *
If I rembered it right!?O.o' Troop Crawler comes with a 50% raise of durable armor also with the upgrade. Though, I wonder how many people use the War Propaganda ability upgrade in Generals Promotion Tech Tree? That one seems unessery. It would be nice if SWR changed this to something else or add an extra ability for that promotion ability like an upgrade for Battlemaster. They will be more used and enjoyible to play with, even if you go for Mass Mobilization. My thoughts about this would be a small area of mine drops after it's death on the battlefields. I don't think it will be o.p. I'll guess most folks go for hopper tank if they choose mass production because they come in mass discount 'n' faster buildtime with more (4 in all & only 2000/"creds", normaly 1000 each) at once! Seems Hopper has the same damage output as the Battlemaster, but weaker armor, though faster and scout ability, good for brute force - guerilla warfare with a little mix of other units. --Just an idea^_^'

Posted by: Zeke 8 Apr 2017, 4:44

http://forums.swr-productions.com/index.php?act=boardrules

QUOTE
1. Suggestions.

Before all else, do understand that suggestions for any of the projects of SWR are not wanted right now. Please do not open a topic to write suggestions and please do not add suggestions to an existing topic.

Posted by: {Lads}RikerZZZ 8 Apr 2017, 4:46

Mate, everyone uses the war prop in PvP. That generals power is amazing, and I wouldn't change it for the world.

Also the team doesnt take ideas/suggestions

Posted by: Mr_JAKH 8 Apr 2017, 5:29

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 8 Apr 2017, 5:46) *
Mate, everyone uses the war prop in PvP. That generals power is amazing, and I wouldn't change it for the world.

Also the team doesnt take ideas/suggestions

It's a manner of taste, good to see someone liked it, but as I mentioned before: SWR could add something to War Propaganda if people like you like this one, that wouldn't be to much of o.p. Though, maybe the suggestion would not fit in the ability's name, seperate likely? Nice if Battlemasters got some kind of an extra little upgrade except, the ordinery ones like uranium shells etc. To begin with this was posted in the wrong section, sorry comrades!

Posted by: Hanfield 8 Apr 2017, 10:04

Could, but no reason to; so we won't.

Posted by: Umpfelgrumpf 8 Apr 2017, 13:16

While we are on the topic of GP's:

I'd love to see some usefullness added to the ECM Flare drop ability.
No one picks it in pvp, and if so then one point is usually enough to use the effect for an airstrike.

It's to situational compared to all other 3 Star GP's in the game i think.

Posted by: Maelstrom 8 Apr 2017, 13:54

QUOTE (Umpfelgrumpf @ 8 Apr 2017, 14:16) *
While we are on the topic of GP's:

I'd love to see some usefullness added to the ECM Flare drop ability.
No one picks it in pvp, and if so then one point is usually enough to use the effect for an airstrike.

It's to situational compared to all other 3 Star GP's in the game i think.

Again, it is used a lot by players who rely on airforce, because, in addition of deflecting missiles, it draws anti-air fire for all anti-air units and structures.Throw thos near defenses, and then send a swarm of Mig Bombers, or a Napalm Drop safely.

Posted by: Umpfelgrumpf 8 Apr 2017, 15:22

QUOTE (Maelstrom @ 8 Apr 2017, 14:54) *
Again, it is used a lot by players who rely on airforce, because, in addition of deflecting missiles, it draws anti-air fire for all anti-air units and structures.Throw thos near defenses, and then send a swarm of Mig Bombers, or a Napalm Drop safely.


I know what it does and the uses, but my point still stands.
As you have shown in your example, it's very situational, compared to parabombs for example which are always a safe choice because everytime they get off cooldown you can destroy something with them.

Posted by: Mizo 8 Apr 2017, 15:51

To be fair not every GP is about destruction and disabling.

There really isn't anything to add on to the Flares that wouldn't be covered by other GPs without making it obnoxious ( I had in mind something similar to the ECM overcharge that also prevents stuff from attacking under it but that would be horribly insane and broken).

As for their roles, they're pretty much the best AA/Anti-missile countermeasure GP in game, compared to TMD, a really great asset in team games as well when our ally is focusing on air power.

Another use of the GP is to help your other GPs connect into enemy base incase they have solid heavy AA network.

It's also insane vs GLA.

Really there isn't much to add about it.

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