CANCELLED: Shockwave Fan Patch, CANCELLED Options

[Shockwavelover84]

As far as Kassad goes, another suggestion to making him less weak would be to just boost the power/armor of his MBTs (the Cobra Armored Cars). As of right now they'll lose 1 on 1 vs. one of Dr. Thrax's Toxin Tractors, so that's pretty telling. A tank just shouldn't lose to a Toxin Tractor.

Well, that would make vUSA and Air Force General become way too unbalanced...

I don't see how - as of right now they're the only factions without a non-interceptible AA weapon (all of their AA are missile-based; in vZH every faction had at least 1 AA weapon which couldn't be intercepted; this was changed in SW after Air Force and vUSA were given a missile-based Avenger instead of the original Laser Avenger). This means for example that a group of Laser Comanches with PDLs can stay pretty much immune to an Avenger or Patriot.

The specific method of implimenting this is not important, but for the sake of balance there should be a way for both of these factions to counter PDL-equiped aircraft.

This post has been edited by Shockwavelover84: 14 Nov 2014, 1:16

[GeneralCamo]

Open Beta 3 Released to the public! Check the first post for details and the download.

[nikitazero678]

I've played the patch, and noticed that some of the command buttons aren't updated with the new descriptions on the Generals.str file.

I'll include the changes in OB3 when possible to my patch.

This post has been edited by nikitazero678: 16 Nov 2014, 19:03

[GeneralCamo]

Unlikely to use those, I have my own set planned.

[Shockwavelover84]

A few units now use out-of-context voice clips - here's a way to improve them.

---
Give Inferno Cannon replacements (Grinder Cannons and Siege Cannons) a modified voiceset:

When do I get started? - New line when emerging from War Factory

Let's rain some fire. - Line now removed

Inferno cannons loaded - Changed to modified clip "Cannons Loaded" (this has already been done

Heheheheheheheh - Selection line now changed to attack line

Engulf them in flames, Let's light em up, Let the fireballs fly, Fire from sky - lines now removed

No fire needed here., Why waste the flameballs?, Easy does it - cut attack lines now added back

Fire from sky - line can be edited to Fire! and used as another attack line

http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Inferno_cannon
---

Missile and Plasma Avengers' lines when attacking enemy aircraft should be modified to match those of the Gladiator (note that you have to attack an enemy aircraft to hear these lines - a glitch causes Avengers to use the Ground attack voiceset if force-firing on your own aircraft):

Commencing light array, Initiating Laser Strike - lines should be removed

Targeting for Rapid Fire, They may not like the attention - lines now added as air-attack lines

---

RAD Tank

Desolator Ready - line should be removed

---

Fanatic

Replace lines with the Fundamentalist voice set - the RA2 Cuban Terrorist lines don't fit

This post has been edited by Shockwavelover84: 18 Nov 2014, 9:28

[Shockwavelover84]

I'd also give the Chinese Supply Truck the ability to transport a few infantry (like ROTR has planned) so that they don't become a completely useless unit that just takes up space once all of the resource piles are gone.

[Shockwavelover84]

After a few multiplayer Skirmish games I've come to the conclusion that Salvage General is very overpowered. I can attest to this because I've badly beaten players with more skill than me who normally beat me consistently except as this general.

In longer games once income is very high, his salvage Generals' ability (which allows him to upgrade units on demand and create Salvage piles at the Scrap Yard) makes him ridiculously strong if used right.

Once you have enough Scrap Yards that you no longer have to worry about income - this means he can essentially assemble a fleet of Tier 3 Salvage Mauraders, Quad Tanks, etc on a whim and simply annihilate everything in his path (just to put things in perspective - even a Quad Tank with full tier salvage and veterancy can destroy a structure about as fast as an Overlord).

Essentially in matches like these - this guy can turn every unit he has into the equivalent of a "hero" in terms of combat prowess. Maybe a solution is to nerf the enhanced power of Salvage upgrades all around the board - or remove Deathstrike's ability to instantly upgrade his units for cash (meaning they'll have to use the Scrap Yard to gain salvage on demand).

[Rymosrac]

Honestly, the vast majority of matches don't go long enough for that to become a serious issue, and the amount of micro time you spend handling that kind of individual salvage upgrade is huge.

[Shockwavelover84]

Honestly, the vast majority of matches don't go long enough for that to become a serious issue, and the amount of micro time you spend handling that kind of individual salvage upgrade is huge.

In a long skirmish game between 2 or more skilled players (once you have 5-10 or more Junk Yards) it's not nearly has hard to do to as you'd think

[Red Alert]

Honestly, the vast majority of matches don't go long enough for that to become a serious issue.

That's a terrible game design philosophy!! NO developer thinks that way. It should be balanced regardless of how long the match is.

[GeneralCamo]

Actually, it is perfectly reasonable to judge balance based on how long a match is. Especially considering a few factions have their strength in the late-game, not the early game. (Laser, Nuke, etc.)

This post has been edited by Generalcamo: 21 Nov 2014, 1:02

[GeneralCamo]

All good things must come to an end...

Today I have decided to stop development of my patch. It has become too much work to work on, with my life and several other projects I have been called upon. There are not enough players to justify the continued development of my patch. And so.. I announce that the patch is cancelled. There will probably not be anymore versions coming out anytime soon.

I did enjoy the work I did on it though. I never really had as much resources as the Shockwave developers, but I think I did a good job with what I had. I came further than anyone has ever done. And I got a lot of praise on my work as well. It has also gotten me involved with several wonderful people.

But this.. is where I say my goodbye. I will still be around the community, but I will step down from working on the patch.

[nikitazero678]

All good things must come to an end...

Today I have decided to stop development of my patch. It has become too much work to work on, with my life and several other projects I have been called upon. There are not enough players to justify the continued development of my patch. And so.. I announce that the patch is cancelled. There will probably not be anymore versions coming out anytime soon.

I did enjoy the work I did on it though. I never really had as much resources as the Shockwave developers, but I think I did a good job with what I had. I came further than anyone has ever done. And I got a lot of praise on my work as well. It has also gotten me involved with several wonderful people.

But this.. is where I say my goodbye. I will still be around the community, but I will step down from working on the patch.

Well... it's so sad to see you stop developing the patch. With this, my fan patch will be the only one that is being actively developed and updated.

I'll continue my fan patch from what you've left off.

This post has been edited by nikitazero678: 21 Nov 2014, 17:12

[Shockwavelover84]

Actually, it is perfectly reasonable to judge balance based on how long a match is. Especially considering a few factions have their strength in the late-game, not the early game. (Laser, Nuke, etc.)

Salvage General doesn't have any significant weakness early-game though compared to anyone the other factions (if anything he's better at countering early-rushes), so it doesn't compensate for any weakness - it just makes him comically overpowered if played right.

Late-game if you abuse the Salvage-on-demand abilities then he might as well just be the boss general.

I think the best solution would be nerfing the Salvage/Veterancy stat increases of Scarabs, Mauraders, and Quad Cannons so that even full-tiered they don't exceed more than 2X-3X their standard firepower. A Quad Cannon tank or Maurader with full salvage and veterancy shouldn't be able to deal more damage than an heroic Emperor Overlord.

The suggestion to lower the damage that all Quad Cannons do to buildings and heavy tanks is probably a good idea too - right now they're too versatile and end up replacing tanks for the most part.

This post has been edited by Shockwavelover84: 21 Nov 2014, 22:03

[Kichō]

Salvage General doesn't have any significant weakness early-game though compared to anyone the other factions (if anything he's better at countering early-rushes), so it doesn't compensate for any weakness - it just makes him comically overpowered if played right.

I don't think so, for one his defences are split up and cost quite a lot. Also, unlike other GLA, he's not very mobile so his units can easily be kited, not to mention they are also fairly expensive to replenish.

Late-game if you abuse the Salvage-on-demand abilities then he might as well just be the boss general.

Only if you knowingly exploit a nasty bug, then sure. The last revision helped seal that away since it was moved to Rank 3 but it doesn't fix the problem. Only way to fix that would be to make it a entirely a ability at the Junk Yard. (In which you go to collect it from there)

I think the best solution would be nerfing the Salvage/Veterancy stat increases of Scarabs, Mauraders, and Quad Cannons so that even full-tiered they don't exceed more than 2X-3X their standard firepower. A Quad Cannon tank or Maurader with full salvage and veterancy shouldn't be able to deal more damage than an heroic Emperor Overlord.

No. That sort of ties in with what I said above. Anyway, doing that would make his units not much better than other GLA forces, he is supposed to have the best, robust GLA units. I also think you're exaggerating with the Quad Tank dealing more damage than a Emperor... same with the Marauder, they both might be powerful but they certainly do not deal more damage.

The suggestion to lower the damage that all Quad Cannons do to buildings and heavy tanks is probably a good idea too - right now they're too versatile and end up replacing tanks for the most part.

It's not really the damage I think is the problem but rather the damage type all Quads have, the same could be said to Red Guards since they too have that wonderful damage type.

By the way, I also read your comment about Rocket Avengers and TOWs being affected by PDL, TOWs are affected, yes, but Rocket Avengers are not.

Anyway there really isn't much point continuing here since Camo said he cancelled his patch.

This post has been edited by Kichō: 21 Nov 2014, 22:55

[Red Alert]

I'm gonna make a general statement about the philosophy behind balancing in reply to Generalcamo and Rymosrac. I am in no way of advocating for the salvage general to be nerfed. With that said...

Actually, it is perfectly reasonable to judge balance based on how long a match is. Especially considering a few factions have their strength in the late-game, not the early game. (Laser, Nuke, etc.)

Yes and no. Yes, if it's a matter of play style, and it's balanced, then the net balance will cancel each other out. If a general is weak early on, but stronger later on, and its opponent is strong early on, but weaker later on, then the net balance is about zero (ideally). But no, if a general is weak early on, but super OP later on, then we're going to have balancing issues.

Rymosrac's comment seems to suggest, "oh then you'll have to defeat them early before they reach the later stages." While it might be possible in a 1v1 match, a match involving more players will lengthen the match longer, and those with a late game OP faction will win out. This is true for any genre besides RTS.

[Shockwavelover84]

I don't think so, for one his defences are split up and cost quite a lot. Also, unlike other GLA, he's not very mobile so his units can easily be kited, not to mention they are also fairly expensive to replenish.

If you want to play 1on1 sometime I'll show you what I mean.

Most factions have 'split up' defenses to an extent - ex. Patriots aren't effective against moving infantry; gattling cannons aren't effective against tanks, etc. Plus he still has tunnel networks, so other than separate AA defenses (which he doesn't need against Generals with no AA) he doesn't lose anything defense-wise over other GLA factions.

He definitely doesn't stand out as weak early-game even if a few other factions may be better.

Only if you knowingly exploit a nasty bug, then sure. The last revision helped seal that away since it was moved to Rank 3 but it doesn't fix the problem. Only way to fix that would be to make it a entirely a ability at the Junk Yard. (In which you go to collect it from there)

That, and possibly remove the cash cost from the Scrap Yard salvage, and replace it with a timer (which only allows 1 salvage drop every minute).

No. That sort of ties in with what I said above. Anyway, doing that would make his units not much better than other GLA forces, he is supposed to have the best, robust GLA units. I also think you're exaggerating with the Quad Tank dealing more damage than a Emperor... same with the Marauder, they both might be powerful but they certainly do not deal more damage.

A Marauder with full salvage and veterancy definitely deals as much or more damage than a heroic Emperor. A Quad Tank with full salvage and veterancy really does deal about the same as an overlord with no veterancy.

Just because he's supposed to have the best doesn't mean he should be able to turn every Quad, Scarab, or Maurader into a "hero" class unit.

As I mentioned I'd be in favor of nerfing the maximum firepower of these units with full salvage and veterancy for all GLA factions as well. Though you only really get a chance to amass them when playing as Salvage.

It's not really the damage I think is the problem but rather the damage type all Quads have, the same could be said to Red Guards since they too have that wonderful damage type.

By the way, I also read your comment about Rocket Avengers and TOWs being affected by PDL, TOWs are affected, yes, but Rocket Avengers are not.

Anyway there really isn't much point continuing here since Camo said he cancelled his patch.

Red Guards can't attack air, so they still have a counter. Quads on the other hand when fully upgraded really have no counter - plus they have the speed which Overlords lack.

I'll have to retest and see if missile Avangers' missiles can be zapped by PDLs.

And since another member is making his own patch, I'm still listing ideas here.

This post has been edited by Shockwavelover84: 22 Nov 2014, 2:35

[Red Alert]

I think the best solution would be nerfing the Salvage/Veterancy stat increases of Scarabs, Mauraders, and Quad Cannons so that even full-tiered they don't exceed more than 2X-3X their standard firepower. A Quad Cannon tank or Maurader with full salvage and veterancy shouldn't be able to deal more damage than an heroic Emperor Overlord.

The suggestion to lower the damage that all Quad Cannons do to buildings and heavy tanks is probably a good idea too - right now they're too versatile and end up replacing tanks for the most part.

I have to agree to disagree with what you're trying to get at. I just did an analysis comparing Emperor with Quad Tank.

When talking about balance, it helps to do a critical analysis of it rather than judgement.

Quad Tank
BuildCost = 850
MaxHealth = 375.0
InitialHealth = 375.0
BuildTime = 6.0

Emperor
BuildCost = 2400
MaxHealth = 1100.0
InitialHealth = 1100.0
BuildTime = 20.0

Holding veterancy equal (% weapon modifiers are the same for both). Weapon Bonus Damage (AP bullets and uranium shells) is the same so it's not important.

Emperor: 180 Damage (double-shot) to Quad Tank per 1901 ms. Will take 2.083 clips to kill Quad tank or 3960.4167 ms*.
Quad Tank (Salvage 1): 16 Damage * 50% (Gattling vs TankArmor) = 8 Damage against TankArmor per 100 ms. Will take 68.75 shots or 6,875 ms* to kill Emperor.
Quad Tank (Salvage 2): 16 Damage * 50% (Gattling vs TankArmor) = 8 Damage against TankArmor per 75 ms. Will take 68.75 shots or 5,156.25 ms* to kill Emperor.
*Less is better

Healing Upgrades
Junk Repair: 0.53% per second
Progaganda Speakers with subliminal message: 2% every 2 seconds (1% every second).
It will take an additional 5 shots (salvage tier 1) to kill a healing Emperor. In other words, having the healing upgrades will ensure the Emperor lives for another 500 ms, which isn't much.

Emperor with Gattling Upgrade
The Gattling upgrade will save time by saving one shell (the 0.083 remainder) and finishing off any healing amount that was added by Junk Repair within the two clip time-frame. In other words, gattling upgrade will not make any significant difference against Quad Tanks; your main cannons will. It's purpose is anti-infantry and anti-air.

One-on-one, Quad tanks with tier 1 or 2 salvage will lose against Emperor. However, this does not take into consideration cost-to-performance ratio.

Cost-to-Performance
Two Quad Tanks ($2300, which includes two quad tanks, both upgraded to tier 1 salvage) will kill an Emperor in 3,687.5 ms. So time-wise, they are about 7% faster at killing than Emperor. Not only that, two Quad Tanks take 12 seconds to build and cost $100 less while an Emperor takes 20 seconds to build and cost $100 more. You are better off spending 2 Quad tanks with salvage tier 1 upgrades than an Emperor. The salvage general makes it too easy to upgrade to the first salvage upgrade and take on an Emperor tank with no disadvantage.

It all boils down to balance allocation, which includes cost, "opportunity costs", "risks/chances", build time, HP and armor, "rewards and incentives", and a combination of firepower & rate of fire. Salvage crates should be able to give you extra versatility in expanding their roles to other roles while making their previous roles even stronger (like Quad Tanks or Toxin Tractors). Sometimes it's not versatility, but just added improvement to their main roles (Scorpion Tanks). Note: versatility does not mean making a unit very "strong" against a role they were not originally suited for. It could mean they can take on a regular tank "better" than what they had before. So a fully salvaged Quad tank can be equal to an unsalvaged scorpion tank or marauder tank.

I need to see an objective analysis before I can back anyone up. I'll be happy to back you up if you can provide me with facts from the inis. All I can say is this, in economics we have choices. The item that yields the best results for a given task will always be selected over inferior ones. If paper beats rock and scissors everytime, then everyone will pick paper. This destroys unit diversification and makes the game very stale. And if everyone picks salvage general because of it, then we'll need to rethink this.

I think the best solution would be nerfing the Salvage/Veterancy stat increases

Need specifics. It would really help if you make concrete recommendations.
As it is in the game:

Quad tank weapon
Tier 0: 12 damage per 100 ms
Tier 1: 16 damage per 100 ms
Tier 2: 16 damage per 75 ms

Emperor uses TankArmor. It is 50% resistant to GATTLING so take half of damage.

This post has been edited by Red Alert: 22 Nov 2014, 4:11

[Shockwavelover84]

I have to agree to disagree with what you're trying to get at. I just did an analysis comparing Emperor with Quad Tank.

I wasn't saying a full salvage/veterancy Quad Tank would win 1-on-1 against an Emperor. The Emperor has significantly better armor so it'll win in a 1-on-1 duel though it's much more costly to crank them out of the War Factory).

Against structures however (or lighter units which it can win against 1-on-1) it easily has firepower in the same range.

And just remember to consider the Quad is designed to be an anti-infantry/anti-air unit - not a tank destroyer. Basically when fully upgraded, you end up with a fast, powerful anti-everything unit, with a low base cost - who's only weakness is fairly light armor, and when amassed has no real counter (other than possibly artillery).

---

Like you said testing's required to make a hard judgment. But here's an easy test - take a Quad with Heroic veterancy and full salvage, and see how long it tames one to destroy a Command Center (versus an Overlord or Emperor straight out of the War Factory).

Or take a Maurader or a Scarab with heroic veterancy and full salvage, and see how long it takes one to destroy a Command Center (versus a Heroic Emperor).

This post has been edited by Shockwavelover84: 22 Nov 2014, 6:30

[Shockwavelover84]

Okay - here are a few quick tests I did on my own using Salvage General and Tank General. Units I used:

Emperor Tank - (Reactive Armor, Uranium Shells, and Gattling Cannon upgrades - Subliminal Messaging and Chain Guns also purchased but I'm unaware if Emperor benefits from these ) with no veterancy

Marauder, Scarab, and Quad Tank (Junk Armor upgrades) with heroic veterancy and full salvage

---
And here are some things I found out.

-A Maurader destroys a War Factory at about double the speed of an Emperor

-A Maurader loses to an Emperor 1-on-1 by just a sliver of HP (it would likely beat an Overlord or Emperor with no tech upgrades)

-A Maurader can destroy 1 Ramjet Turret defense and 1 AP Gattling Cannon all on one HP bar

-A Maurader reduces a Battle Bus to "bunker mode" in 1 salvo


-A Scarab loses 1-on-1 to a Maurader by about 1/5th of it's life bar

-A Scarab destroys a War factory about 2 seconds slower than a Maurader


-A Quad Tank destroys a War Factory about 1 second lower than Emperor (without upgrades I believe it would destroy it faster than it); it destroys it about 2 seconds slower than Heroic Emperor

-A Quad Tank can destroy a Tank General Battlemaster (unupgraded) with just over half its HP remaining

-A Quad Tank does lose badly to an Emperor 1-on-1 though due to its lower armor

---

In conclusion my estimates weren't that far off. In fact I actually underestimated the excessive firepower of the Marauder and the Scarab (I estimated it to about equal to an Overlord, when really it's closer to double the firepower). It also makes the Basilisk pretty useless in comparison (why spend $1800 for a slow moving hulk, when you can spend close to 1/2 that for a Quick-moving tank which can max out with the firepower of 2 Overlords?)

[Red Alert]

I was just putting things into perspective by presenting facts so we can all see it objectively. I practically did the research for you. Do what I did.

(no veterancy, no weapons upgrade excluding salvage upgrade)
It takes 234,375 ms for a single fully salvaged quad tank to destroy a Chinese Command Center. (234.38 seconds)
It takes 52,805.56 ms for an emperor tank to destroy a Chinese Command Center. (52.80 seconds)
It takes 33,333.33 ms for a fully salvaged Marauder to destroy a Chinese Command Center. (33.33 seconds)
Just for kicks, it takes 50,000 ms for a tier-1 salvage Marauder to destroy a Chinese Command Center. (50 seconds)

Therefore, Marauder (salvage 2) > Marauder (salvage 1) > Emperor > Quad Tank (salvage 2) when it comes to who is the fastest at destroying a CC.

Before you call the Marauder tank OP, you'll have to take into consideration the following:

cost, "opportunity costs", "risks/chances", build time, HP and armor, "rewards and incentives", and a combination of firepower & rate of fire.

Is it OP? I don't know. I'm not going to jump to conclusions before I can verify the facts. If the cost-to-performance ratio is better than the Emperor, then you can call it OP if you wish. But I need for you to do some research so I can view it objectively rather than by bias or judgement.

I'll need this mod to be balanced before RotR 2.x is out so I can combine both mods. Someone needs to sit down and REALLY balance the units and factions. Just to quote this again:

in economics we have choices. The item that yields the best results for a given task will always be selected over inferior ones. If paper beats rock and scissors everytime, then everyone will pick paper. This destroys unit diversification and makes the game very stale.

Again, I'm not against your ideas. I just need for you to provide me with information so I can make my own decisions. Calling something OP or UP isn't really helping much.

You're right that the Quad Tank shouldn't be a "tank destroyer." I verified those facts in my earlier post. What I proposed was tier-0 is terrible, tier-1 is mediocre, and tier-2 is fair against tanks. So a tier-2 for a Quad tank is like a tier-0 for a scorpion tank, maybe slightly worse. However, the player should be rewarded and incentivized for upgrading their quad tanks to tier-2 nonetheless, and it has to be worth it. Versatility is one option if adding more firepower to their main role is not sufficient. Using the toxin tractor as an example, it makes no significant difference between tier-0 and tier-2 when killing infantries. They die quickly either way. If all the crate gave out was increased firepower against infantry, then there will be no incentive to upgrade them because they're already good enough (other vehicles will get it instead). So versatility is the only option in this case. That means doing damage against tanks at tier-2 even if it's not their main role.

This post has been edited by Red Alert: 22 Nov 2014, 8:13

[Red Alert]

-A Maurader destroys a War Factory at about double the speed of an Emperor

Just gonna do this one example. I was able to verify it. 21.12 seconds for an Emperor, 13.33 seconds for a fully salvaged marauder. (no veterancy, no weapons upgrade excluding salvage upgrade). PM me or ask me if you want to know how I came to those numbers.

It also makes the Basilisk pretty useless in comparison (why spend $1800 for a slow moving hulk, when you can spend close to 1/2 that for a Quick-moving tank which can max out with the firepower of 2 Overlords?)

Just like my quote earlier

in economics we have choices. The item that yields the best results for a given task will always be selected over inferior ones. If paper beats rock and scissors everytime, then everyone will pick paper. This destroys unit diversification and makes the game very stale.

Balance is not easy as it appears. Once you discover something is unbalanced, then what?

I just hope to god RotR is balanced because Shockwave was kinda rushed over to start work on RotR.

[Shockwavelover84]

Just gonna do this one example. I was able to verify it. 21.12 seconds for an Emperor, 13.33 seconds for a fully salvaged marauder. (no veterancy, no weapons upgrade excluding salvage upgrade). PM me or ask me if you want to know how I came to those numbers.

Just like my quote earlier
Balance is not easy as it appears. Once you discover something is unbalanced, then what?

I just hope to god RotR is balanced because Shockwave was kinda rushed over to start work on RotR.

My honest and simple solution would be just to decrease the max firepower of Marauders, Scarabs, and Quads receive with each Salvage upgrade (for all GLA factions). It's only those 3 units which become a huge problem when fully upgraded.

*A double-barrelled Maurader should only be able to deal 1/2 the damage of an Emperor tops; a triple-barrelled Maurader should only deal 2/3 the damage tops.

*A fully upgraded Quad (of any variant) should be able to destroy a building at 1/3rd the speed as an Emperor tops; even when fully upgraded a Quad (of any variant) should still lose 1-on-1 to any tank (ex. Even when fully upgraded, a Sheridan or Cobra tank should still beat it by a small fraction of HP).

*I'd also be in favor of adding other salvage enhancements rather than just firepower to give players more of a reason to use Salvage (just like you said). Ex. Extra speed, extra range, or extra armor for these units as they upgrade, but with the firepower reductions I mentioned above.



I'm not talking about these in the context of doing a "mod merge" - just in the context of any unofficial patch which may be released.

[Shockwavelover84]

Just gonna do this one example. I was able to verify it. 21.12 seconds for an Emperor, 13.33 seconds for a fully salvaged marauder. (no veterancy, no weapons upgrade excluding salvage upgrade). PM me or ask me if you want to know how I came to those numbers.

Just like my quote earlier
Balance is not easy as it appears. Once you discover something is unbalanced, then what?

I just hope to god RotR is balanced because Shockwave was kinda rushed over to start work on RotR.

My honest and simple solution would be just to decrease the max firepower of Marauders, Scarabs, and Quads receive with each Salvage upgrade (for all GLA factions). It's only those 3 units which become a huge problem when fully upgraded.

*A double-barrelled Maurader should only be able to deal 1/2 the damage of an Emperor tops; a triple-barrelled Maurader should only deal 2/3 the damage tops.

*A fully upgraded Quad (of any variant) should be able to destroy a building at 1/3rd the speed as an Emperor tops; even when fully upgraded a Quad (of any variant) should still lose 1-on-1 to any tank (ex. Even when fully upgraded, a Sheridan or Cobra tank should still beat it by at least a small fraction of HP). In addition to balance this would give players more of a reason to use tanks, rather than the simple Quad spam I often see.

*I'd also be in favor of adding other salvage enhancements rather than just firepower to give players more of a reason to use Salvage (just like you said). Ex. Extra speed, extra range, or extra armor for these units as they upgrade, but with the firepower reductions I mentioned above.



I'm not talking about these in the context of doing a "mod merge" - just in the context of any unofficial patch which may be released.

This post has been edited by Shockwavelover84: 22 Nov 2014, 21:17