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Photoelectric effect
Jet02
post 16 Jan 2017, 15:42
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Everyone knows that any photon at the higher end of the em spectrum can ionize matter(hence the name ionizing radiation)

But is it possible to achieve the same results by firing a barrage of low energy photons in quick succession?

Do quantum effects have to be taken into account?
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Jet02
post 19 Jan 2017, 13:37
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Is there not a person here who can/will answer this question?
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DeE
post 19 Jan 2017, 15:45
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WELL ... where to begin. Photons are not part of EM spectrum but they are in most of cases asociated with EM waves of some sorts, if it is asociated with something above UV light (which itself is already Ionizing) it can cause this photoelectric effect and kick some particle out of atoms, if this is neutron it is the cause of ionising radiation. however this way of ionising anything is really ineffective. Photons in large numbers (having relativistic mass) must be part of some kind of leading wave (prefferably gamma rays) to quantumm tunnel trough some solid object (not all of them of course but more you shoot higher number will pass) so they can ionize objects behind that solid object where gamma radiation would be significantly weakened. but this is increadibly ineffective way to ionize something. Also low energy photons (below UV light) have no chance of ionising anything their wave is simply not powerful enough. might i ask why are you asking this?
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Jet02
post 20 Jan 2017, 16:18
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QUOTE (DeE @ 19 Jan 2017, 22:45) *
WELL ... where to begin. Photons are not part of EM spectrum but they are in most of cases asociated with EM waves of some sorts, if it is asociated with something above UV light (which itself is already Ionizing) it can cause this photoelectric effect and kick some particle out of atoms, if this is neutron it is the cause of ionising radiation. however this way of ionising anything is really ineffective. Photons in large numbers (having relativistic mass) must be part of some kind of leading wave (prefferably gamma rays) to quantumm tunnel trough some solid object (not all of them of course but more you shoot higher number will pass) so they can ionize objects behind that solid object where gamma radiation would be significantly weakened. but this is increadibly ineffective way to ionize something. Also low energy photons (below UV light) have no chance of ionising anything their wave is simply not powerful enough. might i ask why are you asking this?


Sorry, i find it hard to understand you. Still.....

1. I meant to say photons with higher energy levels.
2. Neutron ionization? Is that a thing? Afaik kicking neutrons from stuff forms isotopes, not ions.
3. Photons have mass? Also what is meant by the worm "relativistic"?
4. So it's physically impossible then...? But why? Can't the same effect be achieved by making a group of low energy photons hit the electron in an arbitrarily small amount of time(say one planck unit) so the electron has no chance to release that energy at all?
5. Bonus question: where in an atom is energy actually stored? Everywhere?

Right now my scientific knowledge is pretty much like the surface of the earth a bunch of islands(no continents yet lol) scattered everywhere in a seemingly borderless, infinite ocean of ignorance. I know tonnes of some stuff, but almost nothing about other stuff[which is pretty much the last thing i need as a wannabe Hawking successor(and pretty weird for any sort of scientist in general)]. I'm trying to fix that.
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DeE
post 21 Jan 2017, 15:53
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To answer your second question: Any charged massive particle can ionize atoms directly by fundamental interaction through the Coulomb force if it carries sufficient kinetic energy. This includes atomic nuclei, electrons, muons, charged pions, protons, and energetic charged nuclei stripped of their electrons.

To answer your third question: Every particle have mass but photons are kinda special, they have this 'virtual mass' you need it to exist as a particle. It is called relativistic because it becomes relevant just at the speed of light. This mass is the ratio of momentum to velocity, and it is also the relativistic energy divided by c2. Photon's rest mass is really equal to 0 BUT once something is moving at the 100% c it gains mass, it is really difficult to explain but imagine that the photon gains some really tiny amount of mass in the moment it interacts with another particle.

To answer your fourth question: In this particular scenario you putted there it might be possible since photons exhibit a wave like interference, we can (in theory) use constructive interference to kick that nasty electron out. However the amount of photons must be really really large and they must arrive at the same time. The reason why it is hard for photons to ionise is that it have such a small mass compared to electron's mass. It's like trying to move a car by shooting BB gun onto it.

And your final question: Yes energy is stored everywhere in many forms. In fact matter is just a property an energy can gain. String theory claims that at the smallest plausible scale there are just vibrating strings of energy which vibrate elementary particles into existence. energy values are thus summaries of every part of a particle and every property this particle have.

PS: I know it is really difficult to understand me. It is because I am a very bad at explaining things and this subject is really hard to explain as it is. However I hope I made myself a but more clear this time. I'm glad that there are people like you, people who are curious and just want to know more about universe.
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Jet02
post 22 Jan 2017, 9:05
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Gotta spend the rest of the year trying to digest that. Thanks anyway.

Are you a physicist?
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(USA)Bruce
post 22 Jan 2017, 15:11
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QUOTE (Jet02 @ 22 Jan 2017, 11:05) *
Gotta spend the rest of the year trying to digest that. Thanks anyway.

Are you a physicist?



No, hes just a janitor in CERN, he repairs stuff
Tottaly not fake Picture of him trying to apply crowbar to quantum physics


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DeE
post 22 Jan 2017, 20:04
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Well I'm still student but this year I'm taking my masters exams. To be honest particle physics are kinda out of my league, for I'm studying fusion, more specifically types of plasma produced by it. But as soon as i get my masters and switch to magisterial classes I'm gonna dig into particle physics. If all goes according to plan and i don't screw up anything i want to write a doctorate on quantum mechanics.

However I'm really glad that you are interested in physics. Most of young people are interested rather in cybernetics, pharmacy and this sort of stuff. People think that physics is too difficult but in reality it is not (we just need to adjust our measuring of difficulty)
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Jet02
post 23 Jan 2017, 7:18
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QUOTE ((USA)Bruce @ 22 Jan 2017, 22:11) *


No, hes just a janitor in CERN, he repairs stuff
Tottaly not fake Picture of him trying to apply crowbar to quantum physics


Sometimes i really hope i've got your sense of humor..... but wtf really?

Also, if you can actually learn quantum physics by working as a janitor in a research facility.... i'm going.

This post has been edited by Jet02: 23 Jan 2017, 7:22
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DeE
post 23 Jan 2017, 13:31
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As a matter of fact i do get his sense of humour.

Applying crowbar to the quantum mechanics leads to realising that there is a chance that some of the crowbar's electrons will end up inside you and some of your electrons will end up inside of the crowbar. Having a crowbar in your head never felt so good.

This is because of uncertainty principle which says that more you know about particle's momentum less you know about it's position, and vice versa. Since you are holding the crowbar you have pretty decent information about momentum of particles on crowbar's surface but also you have pretty decent information about it's position but luckily you don't know too much about either. or you might literally end up with crowbar in your head or with crowbar being disintegrated by differences between momentum of its fundamental particles.
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Jet02
post 23 Jan 2017, 15:44
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But classical effects take over

Also, wild pauli exclusion principle appears and slaps you in the face.

This post has been edited by Jet02: 23 Jan 2017, 15:58
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(USA)Bruce
post 23 Jan 2017, 17:25
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Nobodys going to talk about the Gordon freeman or the crowbar valve joke here I guess?
Okay then...


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Jet02
post 24 Jan 2017, 7:04
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what is the crowbar valve joke?
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Jet02
post 27 Jan 2017, 17:38
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Is mass an intrinsic property of energy itself? If not, how do we explain the fact that gravity affects all objects with energy?
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Star_Abraham
post 30 Jan 2017, 2:45
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I have put many years studying this effect on actual objects, and my research papers show quite a lot about the way photons are went to reflect colours on objects because of it.

I did some experiments while as Starvard to research the effect in detail.

I don't have my PDF copy in hand, so here's some photography of the studies.

I had a custom made photon ray made for me by Starheed Martin to see the quantum effects through our scopes and lasers.

My test subject was a messily chihuahua.



The photon ray was readied and set to blast at it. The hypothesis was that the animal would experience quantum expansion by the bending of mass by the photons, since, as you said, they stripped things.



At 2 minutes in, the ray was fired, using 5000 amps of power and the lasers and scopes were directed to show the effects.



Although our hypothesis was partially correct, we were surprised by the results; they added quantum expansion, as the effect WAS taken in account, but they also bent light around it in a refracting manner, leading it to show colour. The dog was altered heavily, although not harmed in the process.



Our sensors gathered the detection of some interesting elements from the process... they weren't created, but they quickly came out of thin air towards the animals to try making it begone, apparently. these elements are known as Killjoynium and Sorazium

This post has been edited by Star_Abraham: 30 Jan 2017, 2:46


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DeE
post 30 Jan 2017, 3:21
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OK I think that Star nailed it with the best sci-joke I've ever seen xD

QUOTE
Is mass an intrinsic property of energy itself? If not, how do we explain the fact that gravity affects all objects with energy?


Yes mass is an intrinsic property of energy. Remember m=E/c2
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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 2 Feb 2017, 8:46
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Well, 2017 is gonna be pretty shit because post of the year has already been made by star... again


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Jet02
post 26 Feb 2017, 17:24
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curious.astro.cornell.edu/physics/137-physics/general-physics/particles-and-quantum-physics/806-what-is-the-photoelectric-effect-why-can-t-multiple-low-frequency-photons-free-an-electron-intermediate

Found it. I was right.... it is indeed possible to free an pre-excited electron with a photon under the work function... however it's so unlikely the effects are negligable.

This post has been edited by Jet02: 26 Feb 2017, 17:27
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Jet02
post 28 Feb 2017, 12:15
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Is the energy required to free an electron(work function) spent on overcoming the electrostatic attraction between the electron and the nucleus? Or is it spent somewhere else?
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Star_Abraham
post 5 Apr 2017, 16:55
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QUOTE (Jet02 @ 28 Feb 2017, 7:15) *
Is the energy required to free an electron(work function) spent on overcoming the electrostatic attraction between the electron and the nucleus? Or is it spent somewhere else?


The energy is spent elsewhere. r v r


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