Aviation Monthly Options

[Planardweller]

I have. I recall EA was pretty much considering Generals to be an alternate timeline by the time they were making Generals 2, given the dates of the game, the point of divergence was sometime in the early oughties. The plan is that the F-35 did indeed exist in some form, mainly for the US Marine Corps and Navy. In order to continue with their "high/low" fighter strategy, the Air Force managed to continue the F-22 program (or the F-22s production was not prematurely stopped) including the F-22C upgrade program, so USAF F-35A procurement was less than is currently planned. More or less, the USAF went with their original procurement plan where the F-22 replaced the F-15 while the F-35 replaced the F-16; about 300-400 F-22s and about 1200 F-35As. There's no feasible way to put a lift fan in a F-22 or to make it carrier capable so the Navy and USMC continued buying F-35 variants. However, the US Navy is the lead customer thus far of the new F/A-24 Rapier that is entering service in the 2040s. The F-117 upgrade was a stopgap due to the need for a stealth attacker against the GLA in a time when the F-35 was just entering service; its possible that a few F-117Bs may still be flying during the Russo-European War but for the most part they've been replaced by FQ-47s, F-35s, and Auroras.

Don't worry, there will be a fair bit of real life stuff, as well as some new designs and who's to say the real life based weapons will be exactly like their 2010's predecessors?

DerKrieger, you can also make a case that the reduction in procurement for F-35 was because non-USA coutries decided not to buy it. Also F-22 could get an export model, reducing these numbers further(though not much, i would think).

[Cobretti]

I was considering that Japan and possibly other US allied nations could have bought export/licensed versions of the F-22.

[8igDaddy8lake]

I was considering that Japan and possibly other US allied nations could have bought export/licensed versions of the F-22.

With or without the downgraded stealth capabilities the US tries to sell other nations : P

[TornadoADV]

With or without the downgraded stealth capabilities the US tries to sell other nations : P

You can't really "downgrade" the stealth of the F-22 besides taking out it's LPI radar and datalinks. Changing the composition of the airframe and canopy would basically require a whole other assembly line, pushing the price up even higher for the first shipments.

[Kalga]

You can't really "downgrade" the stealth of the F-22 besides taking out it's LPI radar and datalinks. Changing the composition of the airframe and canopy would basically require a whole other assembly line, pushing the price up even higher for the first shipments.

I thought you could downgrade the stealth simply by not applying that expansive coat of radar absorbing paint...

[wb21]

Or perhaps, use a less effective and cheaper RAM coating (since most fighters of this generation onwards would have it as standard feature anyway) and then a nerfed radar/avionics suite...which would give it around 1/3 the flyaway price or a RL Raptor.

The Starlifter is probably an interesting one for your fanfic, my hunch: judging from its size, it would've replaced not just fixed-wing medium-lift transports (in the likes of C-27s and CN-235s etc) but also supplementing/partially replacing C-130s in the heavy-lift and spec-ops roles, IMHO.

[8igDaddy8lake]

My comment was a reference to the current predicament the real-life F-35 is in. The US is trying to sell export versions with several notable features absent, one of these specifically being some stealth capabilities. Which is silly - if they want to buy it, let them buy it. They are allies, and it's not like it would give them a huge advantage against US aircraft, as we still have the ~200 F-22s in service, which are superior interceptors and fighters (presumably the best worldwide, though the PAK FA and J-20 could be rivals for that title).

[Cobretti]

I thought you could downgrade the stealth simply by not applying that expansive coat of radar absorbing paint...

The F-22B/C/whatever it is now replaced the older-generation radar paint with the "baked in" coating used on the F-35 that's much cheaper to maintain.

The Starlifter is probably an interesting one for your fanfic, my hunch: judging from its size, it would've replaced not just fixed-wing medium-lift transports (in the likes of C-27s and CN-235s etc) but also supplementing/partially replacing C-130s in the heavy-lift and spec-ops roles, IMHO.

I already included something on the Starlifter in my first post, and that's the general idea of it.

[TornadoADV]

My comment was a reference to the current predicament the real-life F-35 is in. The US is trying to sell export versions with several notable features absent, one of these specifically being some stealth capabilities. Which is silly - if they want to buy it, let them buy it. They are allies, and it's not like it would give them a huge advantage against US aircraft, as we still have the ~200 F-22s in service, which are superior interceptors and fighters (presumably the best worldwide, though the PAK FA and J-20 could be rivals for that title).

J-20 really isn't in the running at all, mostly because it's job will be more like the Silent Eagle then the Raptor.

The F-22B/C/whatever it is now replaced the older-generation radar paint with the "baked in" coating used on the F-35 that's much cheaper to maintain.

It's actually a stealth "mat" thats put right into the composite layer of the airframe, which means it's no longer damaged by external weather conditions and replacement is as easy as replacing the damaged panel.

This post has been edited by TornadoADV: 30 Apr 2014, 20:02

[8igDaddy8lake]

J-20 really isn't in the running at all, mostly because it's job will be more like the Silent Eagle then the Raptor.

I'm not really sure, as I haven't seen many specs on the J-20 (actually, I don't think many people have). I highly doubt it will be comparable to the Raptor, though, so I agree with you.

[TornadoADV]

I'm not really sure, as I haven't seen many specs on the J-20 (actually, I don't think many people have). I highly doubt it will be comparable to the Raptor, though, so I agree with you.

Considering it's airframe is based on the MiG-1.44, it's safe to say the Chinese are going the fighter bomber route with the J-20. They don't have the money like the US does to be able to build Air Superiority only stealth aircraft when that's only half the problem of fighting a land war.

[Cobretti]

Ok, next are two ones people have been requesting from me for a while now, the Leopard 3 tank; the Manticore will be done soon afterwards.

Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Pzkfw Leopard 3: The Leopard 3 has its roots in the EU's next generation tank program. Originally designed as a pan-European main battle tank family for the European Union's expanded EURRFOR (European Union Rapid Reaction Force), the R&D program resulted in three advanced prototypes the Aegis MBT and two models of the railgun-armed Paragon heavy assault tank. Like many of the prototype next generation weapons systems created for the EU's Rapid Reaction Force, the tanks each used technology and components sourced from various EU member nations and were to promote a face of a modern, unified European military that combined the best of each countries technological, military, and industrial base.

However, much as with the European Union itself, the reality conflicted greatly with the original intention. The Rapid Reaction Force, an international armed force under the jurisdiction of the European Union itself, found itself under harsh criticism from both sides of the political spectrum, with concerns over the possibility of "neo-imperialism" in other countries and the present threat of the EURRFOR being used to quash nationalist opposition to the EU in Europe. On a more immediate level, the implementation of the EURRFOR was anything but perfect. The chain of command was a confusing nightmare and many of the advanced weapons prototypes, designed in an effort to develop a first-rate military-industrial complex almost completely free of reliance on foreign powers, proved to be costly boondoggles. The Aegis MBT was particularly controversial as it turned out that much of the design was heavily plagiarized from the Merkava MkIV tank, resulting in a lawsuit from Israeli Military Industries, whereas the prototype lightweight railguns developed for the Paragon and other vehicles (even a hand-held variant!) turned out to be temperamental, heavy, and power-hungry designs.

Due to the political, financial, and legal issues surrounding numerous aspects of the EU Rapid Reaction Force project, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann threw up their hands in disgust and frustration and withdrew from the tank program. KMW used the technology they devised for the Aegis to design their own tank for the Bundeswehr and export customers, the Leopard 3 (often dubbed the "Europanzer"). Despite having a rocky beginning due to the economic troubles in the former EU at the time, the Leopard 3 would later find itself as the main battle tank of the European Continental Army as well as later equipping the elite armored units of the Bundeswehr. It is notable that the Leopard 3 was the only truly "next-generation" MBT to come out of the aborted EU program; the national armies of Britain, France, Germany, and others would continue on with heavily upgraded models of their existing 21st century tanks for much of the Russo-European War.

In contrast to many of its contemporary armored vehicle designs, the Leopard 3 was designed for a defensive strategy. Mobility was considered a secondary concern when compared to armor and raw firepower. The tank's armor (including smoke grenades, and radio and multispectral jammers) consists of several layers of a ceramic-metal hybrid superalloy, and the tank is capable of being upgraded with nano-shock absorber side skirts and glacis plating. Basically, these are two plates of high-conductivity alloy kept apart by 20 mm of dielectric gel. Both plates are under power, linked to a very large central capacitor. The moment any large auto-cannon shell, kinetic penetrator or shaped charge jet penetrates both plates to complete the circuit, the offending object is disintegrated. But since the circuit is not interrupted and the plates are only lightly damaged, the capacitor will be eventually recharged, using power from the Leopard 3's engine. The Leopard 3 is powered by a highly efficient supercharged multi-fuel engine connected to an electric transmission, and can be upgraded with a new, even more powerful hydrogen fuel cell.

The Leopard 3 uses an unmanned turret, notable for its massive ammunition bustle in the rear. Its armament is of fairly conservative design on the surface; a new generation 120mm smoothbore high-velocity cannon with a MG3 co-axial machine gun, in addition to a second machine gun mount on the turret cupola. The main cannon is capable of using HEAT/HEDP rounds, tungsten penetrator shells, or specialized Shredder anti-personnel canister shot based on the US' M1098 anti-personnel round, and an upgrade enabling it to use new more powerful light gas ignition rounds is available. Additionally, the Leopard 3 is equipped with the Aegis hard-kill anti-infantry/missile weapons system. Though less effective against missiles than the US' PALADIN, the Aegis proved its worth as an anti-infantry system during the invasion of North Africa.

This post has been edited by DerKrieger: 29 May 2014, 16:33

[Svea Rike]

Very nice Krieger, also a nice shout-out/take that to Generals 2.

[Cobretti]

Thanks, I had the idea a while back that many of the new Generals 2 units could have existed in some form in the RotR universe, usually as failed prototypes as a nice take that to the generally uninspired design of the EU units. I earlier mentioned the APA's Warlord Tank as the "Voevoda Tank" in an earlier article about the Kodiak. It was an experimental Ukrainian MBT that was adopted by the Donec'k Republic's army before it was incorporated into the Russian Federation, and had success when it was exported to several Asian countries.

[Pepo]

I really liked the post about the leopard, althougth i belive that in lore the leopard has a manual reload system,thus not an ai controlled turret. I basing my information in the manticore update,that says that the crew of four was reduced to three

[Planardweller]

Thanks, I had the idea a while back that many of the new Generals 2 units could have existed in some form in the RotR universe, usually as failed prototypes as a nice take that to the generally uninspired design of the EU units. I earlier mentioned the APA's Warlord Tank as the "Voevoda Tank" in an earlier article about the Kodiak. It was an experimental Ukrainian MBT that was adopted by the Donec'k Republic's army before it was incorporated into the Russian Federation, and had success when it was exported to several Asian countries.

Pretty interesting take on Leopard, but why so many railguns? Merkava thing is a nod to Endwar?
Btw, british Electric Reactive Armor (ERA) for the win!
Guess that AI suite is more like Siri for IPhones

And minor nibble - MARS earlier said that the new cannon for Leopard is 125 mm.

This post has been edited by Planardweller: 14 May 2014, 18:55

[Cobretti]

Pepo: I may retcon the targeting AI to a highly advanced yet not self-editing targeting computer - its unclear if the ECA's AI systems are barely out of prototype stage (only used on the Manticore and a certain other ECA hi-tech unit). However, the M1A4 Paladin has an AI system aboard so it may be possible that the Leopard 3 has something similar.

Planardweller: The EU tanks mentioned are in fact those from the cancelled Command & Conquer Generals 2 FTP game. Many people here on these forums, including myself, weren't huge fans of the derivative design of the EU units in the game, and the resemblance of the Aegis tank to the Merkava was noted (as well as the similarity to Endwar's Panther). I'll likely do something similar with other ECA (and possibly some GLA) units, mentioning similarities to Generals 2 units. As for the cannon it seemed unlikely that they'd reinvent the wheel with a completely different cannon that was only slightly different in size than an existing weapon they already had loads of ammunition and spare parts for, so I thought it made more sense for the Leopard 3 to have a cannon that used 120mm shells. I thought about how the Nano Armor could work and decided it was a nanite maintained version of the prototype electrical reactive armor.

[Planardweller]

Pepo: I may retcon the targeting AI to a highly advanced yet not self-editing targeting computer - its unclear if the ECA's AI systems are barely out of prototype stage (only used on the Manticore and a certain other ECA hi-tech unit). However, the M1A4 Paladin has an AI system aboard so it may be possible that the Leopard 3 has something similar.

Planardweller: The EU tanks mentioned are in fact those from the cancelled Command & Conquer Generals 2 FTP game. Many people here on these forums, including myself, weren't huge fans of the derivative design of the EU units in the game, and the resemblance of the Aegis tank to the Merkava was noted (as well as the similarity to Endwar's Panther). I'll likely do something similar with other ECA (and possibly some GLA) units, mentioning similarities to Generals 2 units. As for the cannon it seemed unlikely that they'd reinvent the wheel with a completely different cannon that was only slightly different in size than an existing weapon they already had loads of ammunition and spare parts for, so I thought it made more sense for the Leopard 3 to have a cannon that used 120mm shells. I thought about how the Nano Armor could work and decided it was a nanite maintained version of the prototype electrical reactive armor.

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't follow Generals 2 closely, so that's the reason i missed the clues.

[Cobretti]

And here's another I've been getting a lot of requests for, the Manticore:

Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Manticore: The development of the ZTZ-200 Overlord led to the design of weaponry designed to rival or counter it, both on the battlefield and export market. Chief among these super heavy tank designs were the NT-28 Sentinel and the T-88 Bastion. The reveal of these weapons by potentially hostile eastern powers did not go unnoticed by the newly-founded European Continental Alliance and a project of their own was created. Since the ECA relied on a defensive posture save for limited counter-terrorist operations in North Africa, the deployment of a new super-heavy breakthrough tank was seen as a necessary step.

The end result of the tender was the selection of a new super-heavy tank design by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, codenamed “Manticore.� Since it's advent in the Bundeswehr, the Manticore was, and still is, the most advanced tank design in the world. The Manticore features twin Rheinmetall 155mm autoloading cannons based on the L52 used on the PzH-2000 howitzer, a twin-linked 30mm auto cannon unmanned turret mounted atop the main turret, and Gungnir HEAT laser-guided missile containers built into the sides of the main turret. Its 155mm cannons are capable of a maximum fire-rate of 30 RPM together.

Crew complement is three personnel thanks to AI support; a commander, driver, and gunner. The AI is based on a low-level neural network chip-based system and is responsible for recognition, targeting and tracking, including predictive gun stabilization, as well as maintaining the Manticore's nano-foam dispenser robots. The self-hardening nano-foam is deployed via a network of robots that orbit around the Manticore and respond to any damage sustained to the Manticore or other friendly vehicles by spraying the nano-foam onto damaged surfaces.

The power source for the Manticore is a liquid fluoride thorium reactor, the experience with the Overlord showing the power necessary to fuel such a weapon. Using mass-fabricated carbon nanotubes as well as other lightweight high-strength materials in its construction, the Manticore is much lighter than it looks, weighing at about 100 tons. During the Russo-European War the Manticore became renowned as the only tank in the war that could stand up singlehandedly to a Sentinel tank and win, and was often used as a command tank for armored divisions since the war's outbreak.

[Serialkillerwhal...]

I'm gonna have to cut you off on the Carbon Nanotubes bit.

I really, really doubt they can just invent "Spray on nanotubes" that attach to the rest perfectly, and even more so doubt it can work on simpler tanks as well.

[Cobretti]

Perhaps, I just went with the "nano-foam" description in the Eisenfresser news update. It may not be spray-on nanotubes but something close enough for short term repair. Anyways, I know some folks have been requesting a write-up on US tanks, and I have been working on it. But for now, there's something else that I wanted to get out of the way first, the Berkut fighter jet:

Suchoj Su-47S "Firkin":


A picture of a Su-47S Firkin on low altitude maneuvers

Russia's first foray into 5+th generation fighters, the Su-50 Sokol (dubbed "Firefox" by NATO/US military intelligence), found itself suffering from the same issues all early 5th generation aircraft. After a series of delays, technical issues, and cost overruns, the Russian Air Force had no choice to refurbish and upgrade its fleet of MiG-29s and Su-27s to 4+ generation standards as a stop-gap measure, and opened up a tender for a 5+ generation light fighter that was intended to help bridge the gap until the Su-50 Firefox was ready for service.

The MiG corporation submitted two designs for consideration; the MiG-41S, a stealthy light fighter designed in the same vein as the MiG-21 and MiG-29, and the more radical MiG-39 forward-swept-wing VTOL fighter jet which was also considered for the Russian Navy's VTOL multi-role aircraft program. Suchoj submitted the Su-47S Berkut (Firkin by NATO), based off of their Su-47 tech demonstrator. Although the MiG aircraft designs were extremely capable, the Su-47S's much lower comparative cost was very attractive to the currently budget minded Russian Air Force, in particular the fact that the Su-47S shared many components with the Su-27 series and Su-50. While losing the tender, the MiG-39 would find success as an export 5th generation fighter to Russian client states in the Middle East and East Africa, and some reports during the Russo-European War claim that small numbers of the MiG-41S were used by the Russian Air Force. MiG's other contemporary project, the Skat UCAV, was considerably more successful than its manned designs and would be adopted by the Russian Air Force and Navy.

Compared to the original PAK-FA the Su-47S initially sacrificed the high-upkeep RAM coating along with using AL-31 Saturn 2d thrust-vectoring engines taken from the Su-35BM program, albeit later blocks would come with RAM coating and the Su-50's 3d thrust-vectoring AL-41F1 supercruising engines as standard, thereby allowing parts commonality with the current fighters used at the time. The Su-47S's thrust-vectoring engines along with its forward-swept wing gave the aircraft an extreme degree of maneuverability. It is important to note that the Su-47S's sole radical advancement in Russian aircraft design is the use of carbon-nanotube materials in the fuselage, solving the problems of fragility and lack of flexibility found in traditional forward swept wings. Further advancements are the extremely advanced fly-by-wire, modern electronic systems, second-generation optronic targeting, armor plating and integral signature reduction measures. The Su-47S is capable of in-flight refueling like all modern military aircraft.

The heavy use of off-the-shelf technology allowed for very low costs and a rapid research and development time; the project took about a year and a half from inception to flying prototype. Design philosophy was simple; Suchoj engineers postulated that multi-role aircraft were more expensive and less effective than specialized aircraft, and built the Su-47S from a "not a pound for air-to-ground" principle. As a result, the Su-47S lacks any air-to-surface optronics and fire control systems for anything more advanced than dumb bombs and rockets.

The Su-47S borrows the electronic suites of the modernized Su-27 family: N035 Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array, an OEPS-29 passive optronic sensor system, an infrared tail-mounted missile sensor, and the L-150 passive radar. In addition, the Su-47S Berkut features four all-around OEPS-29 optronic sensors giving full coverage around the aircraft, a rear facing attack warning radar, two phased-array side radars, and an attack LADAR linked to the gun's fire control system. Later blocks were equipped with the N036 Belka AESA radar from the Su-50 in lieu of the Irbis-E.

While the Su-47S has six underwing hardpoints in total, it has two integral underbelly weapons bays with four hardpoints in each. For close range combat, the Su-47S is armed with a single-barrel GSh-30-1 with 500 shells in the magazine and 700 cm3 of alcohol in the liquid cooling sleeve as well as two dedicated internal bays for a R-73M infrared-guided missiles with off-boresight helmet-mounted targeting each. Depending on the mission, the Su-47S can carry R-73 infrared AAMs, R-77M family of active air-to-air missiles, R-27R semi-active air-to-air missiles, R-73 family of AAMs, fuel tanks, radar and radar seeker pods, FLIR and laser designator pods, FAB-500 and KAB-500 "JDAMski" bombs, and Ch-38MLE laser guided missiles (when equipped with a laser designator pod). As for defensive systems, the Su-47S has chaff and flare as well as a radar-band jammer and a towed decoy, as well as ceramic and titanium plating around the cockpit and engines.

The Su-47S Berkut was a fairly successful design, being adopted by the Russian/CSTO, Indonesian, and Indian air forces. A Su-47K carrier-capable variant was considered but was ultimately rejected due to the Russian Navy being committed to the MiG-29K, Skat, and Su-50K programs. Likewise with the proposed "Slamhound" ground attack variant, which was deemed too expensive to produce due to the necessary heavy redesign of the aircraft and extensive use of carbon-nanotube armor.

This post has been edited by DerKrieger: 4 Feb 2016, 18:22

[Svea Rike]

Very nice description, Krieger, but the picture shows the APA (read: Chinese) expy of the Berkut from C&C2013. It just bugs me a little, but nice description nonetheless.

Also I want an official response from MARS; can we use these descriptions on the wiki?

[Cobretti]

I actually was considering using a pic/concept art of the Su-38 from Endwar but decided to go with a pic of the jet from C&C2013 instead.

[MARS]

This is a very well thought out take on the Berkut. I would consider it fully compatible with the canon, even the Su-49 designation. Suppose the Russians could still refer it as the Berkut since this is, for all intents and purposes, a fully developed production model based on the original plane. Great work, Krieger. Someone feel free to add this to the lore section of the Berkut article. I'm pretty sure the plane hasn't been strictly identified as an Su-47 in any official lore text.

[Cobretti]

Thanks! I decided to use the "Su-49" designation as I imagined the aircraft would have only a rough physical resemblance to the Su-47, in reality, and as an homage to the "Su-38" in Endwar. Its basically a Su-35S with forward swept wings, canards, updated engines and avionics, and a modified tail that resembles the Su-47s.

This post has been edited by DerKrieger: 8 Jul 2014, 20:12