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Map making, analyzing and reading maps with Bruce, A must read for all future/Current map makers out there
(USA)Bruce
post 19 Jun 2016, 3:19
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Hello there future and current map makers!

Im here as an active pvp player to tell you how to do your job!

Nah Im kidding, Its jus that alot of maps have love and care put into them.God knows what keeps you guys going with your passion of making such great zone for us to play on.

Now some disclaimers;

This guide will be for PVP only for the time being, later on I might add some PVE suggestions and tips but for now I'll stick to pvp because we are having issues with them the most at the momment.
Flaws shown in the maps given in the examples are not ment to be disrespectfull or hatefull but morely valid points to how they react and act to our lovely mod of Reds.People may take the tips and make a newer version of the maps to share if they like, I wouldnt mind as god knows how many versions of TD's I have from my shockwave days.

Little update:

Legend:
Orange lines= Range/Ability to attack that area
Red lines: Inability to attack that area or not having that range.
Maroon Brush: Impassible terrain
Yellow line: Max Range for one side
Pink Brush: Passible terrain that could be added
Blue: Player movements and methods of delivary.
Green Circles; Areas of Intrest,
X marks for Impossible and a correct sign means possible.
Arrows are for guidence

Now lets start with the elephant in the room:

1v1 Maps



Now first of all, before I begin I'd like to mention some good maps before I stat to analyze them all one by one and show the small flaws in them too

Natural threats
Bitter winter
Lagoon
Homeland rocks


Lets start with the community favorite;

Lagoon




Lagoon is a map thats used alot in zero hour and enjoyed in rise of the reds because of well put garrisons and tech buildings,
But it does have its flaws....

If we look at the left/middle of the map there are a few supply crates guarded by a few garrisons to be contested, none of the garrisons are full hp
(This is good in a mod where we have wallhacking MD's and extra garrison bonus enjoying ECA Infantry



Looking at this Image its clear that the mapper had good intentions but didnt playtest it enough.Or perhaps its possible that Its just outdated in ROTR terms.

The Orange lines show where each garrison can fire, the red ones to the ones that cant.
Clearly the mapper has overlooked the fireport? Fireside? Basicly he window that the small whitegarrison cant fire back at the building infront of it while it can recive fire.

Likewise only the garrison on the south side is far enough to attack the oil, for testing results I used rangers.However the top one is further away from the map.

The other glaring issue is that the top side will have a harder time to deploy its supply center as the circle stated with an X is an area where you cannot put any structures of that size there.The same cannot be said for the bottom side.Even if this doesnt matter in my tests with USA the travel distance between the unmarked circle and the one the bottom for trucks and workers can have a major impact in the collection rate.


Now for Image Number two;


As you can see the Avenger here can harras the osprey here with ease.The garrison there cannot fend off the harrasment when the collector is flying based.

Two things you need to remember when using crates, elevation and supply docks.Any other faction but USA can benefit greatly from multiple crates, but every supply docks are equal to players in how they benefit it.(Some could argue that US and GLA benefits least due to locomotors and the que of supply collecting but Im not THAT Nitpicky....YET) However when it comes to terrain, ospreys/flying collectors benefit from the lack of traversing over terrain and enjoy a faster collection speed.Such as the natural expansion and supply dock in bitter winter that is easier to defend in the back for almost no penaltys.We will get into later when we look into bitter winter.

Now the garrison here can defend attacks coming on the right hand side.However given how slow projectiles move and the range of some missle units some fast moving units or units in general and sneak through the side without taking damage.This is without counting the arty platform mind you.

What is truely tastefull is the middle garrison here thats a tower type structure, being nearly equal to the minaret on the east part of the map.Its able to fire on a wide range, covering the middle of the map and giving good vision.

Even having range to cover one supply crate in the middle and enough range to hit the second supply center and given that US can choose the SND battleplan I'd say thats a justified advantage.


Moving onto the other important issues:

-The two bunkers:

Now theese two bunkers served a unique purpase in Zero Hour, they were added there to cover that flank for some sneeky tecnicals drving by the corner and leaving a worker in the corner of the map, far away from the vision of your collectors.Given the minor elevation boost and the positioning its clear that this bunker was put in a way that your foe would have a harder time taking and using agaisnt you but you could use it and access it easier then them.Alongside this it was added there for the sake of having a safe and easy way to hit the barrels and the oil derrick.Incase you wanted to deny it entirely to your foe.However, because you are mapping for ROTR and not just recyling known maps with a [ROTR] tag on them, you should know that oils are rebuildable.Thus moving this garrison abit to the side would be warrented.As currently It can only fire in the aoe shown, which is equal to its vision range.

Now If it was able to be moved to where I suggested that flank would have been exposed completely while the bunker would be more suited on defending the same base.While at the same time enjoying a more chokepointy area of influence due to the natural elevation barriers thats impassible, not to mention being easier/faster to put in a anti-tank infantry unit to attack with garrison bonus damage.

This would in the end leave an area open and the secondary supply of both players more exposed and easier to harras by land units.

-The Arty Platform;

Now theres two thinngs that need to adressed about this;
One Is the faction/player preffrence that needs to be put into perspective.

Now generally not all players want to spend 500-1000-1500 dollars on a overgrown firebase with no Infantry ports.But the right flank is one where players have more crates, hence factions aside from USA for example can benefit from faster collection rates or the US player can actually build a supply center near the arty platform to secure the building, leaving only the collector in risk of harrasment by land units, as the platform itself can contest and damage the garrison if the foe takes it.


What Im getting at is that the right flank should be the option of going for an expansion that doesnt rely on capture building, this would be a less risky and more stable way of growing your income.As the left side aside from its scatterd and near equal supplies to the right, which is an issue all togeter as the were added with the assumptions that the left side would be irrelevant if a quick rockvee would destroy the near dead oils with explosive barrels near them.

So there could be two ways to fix this;

One would be to change the Impassive terrain on the elevation so there could only be one way to enter the hill and that would be from the area of controll of the garrison.This would completely remove the right side entirely for flanking attacks and given the arty platform the means to stand on its own rather then having any unit with a decent speed rush up to it and kill it in its minumum range.See the blue arrows for that.

As I was getting at another tip for mappers; Dont force capture building by putting maps that favor it, not all factions are created equal.On paper an ECA player could gain an advantage of 2000 plus the Income gained per minute while a player who wants to take the right side would spend 1000 dollars on something that has a slow projectile and a minumum range.So the second option would be to put in garrisonable tech buildings, what they are would be up to you.Personally expanding the area, Increasing the amount of tottal supplies and adding four MG guns (two for east and west) and a given number of AA guns should it be needed.



Final thoughts and nitpicks;
-The barrels near tech buildings are a wellcome sight however the explosive barrels near the minaret and the middle tower, however out of range to deal any real damage to the structure itself on the middle tower and only on the south side.While the one near the minaret makes you question why its there as the minaret barely controlls half of the area it can due to it being on the corner of the map and not contesting any resources or stratigic interests.
-The small crates near each primary supply is irrelevant and should be removed and the amount of supplies on the right side should be reduced or a ratio between left and right should be settled.
-The small pool in between the garrisons in the middle should be accompanied by other prop objects that would be preferbly invunrable.Mappers should remember to put ECA/defences that can fire over and through structures.Defences that can attack every building and a zone around it is fustrating to fight agaisnt.
-The lack of civilian cars, as we do not have car bomb ability for terrorists a change of colour/shape and size could be nice.Would let our bombtrucks/radarvans/battlebusses move around in style.
-The reasoning behind the small pond there is morely cosmetic Im guessing, Its size could be changed to further make the supplies harder/Impossible to harras from the other side or increase the Importance of the nearby garrisons role.
-Something for thoose perfectionist mappers; Try to have all of the garrisons In an area like the one in the right side have the same amount of tottal and starting HP alongside garrison capability.

Update/Ending of post one:
Now I've writing this while pulling an all nighter and I cant be bothered to check for typos now.But I'll be submitting more tips, key movements and tricks for both players and mappers on theese favorite maps untill I get to the ideal map setting subject.Leave any suggestions, objections down bellow as I will write another chapter on this post and leave a bump in the upcoming days.
Quick edit: The first Image, the red line pointing at the white little house means that attacks are only one sided that way.

This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 10 Jul 2017, 13:19


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Skitt
post 19 Jun 2016, 3:49
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Easy to read, gets to the point, well thought out, good layout.
nicely done smile.gif


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 19 Jun 2016, 3:56
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Very nice breakdown Bruce smile.gif
Personally I'm fine with Lagoon as is, but I can see where you're coming from.

Also, if you plan on coming back to this, I'd love to see a break down of chokepoints and concaving through the chokepoints.

Still, great stuff man smile.gif


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(USA)Bruce
post 11 Jul 2017, 1:57
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HELLO THERE GENERALS!





Kept you waiting huh?
QUOTE
Well Its almost been a year by a few days Bruce, yes you kept us waiting



Well truth be told I sort of abandoned this little project as It was tedius and I lacked the resources to continue it.

However my friend and our star for today Mr.D or known Deeman to a few randomly mentioned his skills in world builder for mapmaking.

So I forwarded this thread to him and with alot of sweat and hardword entirely from his part, he was able to understand the issues that I have mentioned here.
Under my guidance, I attempted to enact that vision I had for this map alongside feedback from both the tester and public playerbase.

There are some changes made to Lagoon that will be a subject of debate, but this is why this thread is here. Alongside that, this is the first and first map stamped with the [Dee] map series that will hopefully fix and edit maps to both be more refined and compettively viable.

I will go into detail over the changes now but for thoose who just wish to download follow this link:
[Download has been replaced with a link to the most up a thread with the most up to date version]

Changelog

-All Lagoon Abuses mentioned in this Domiantor Video have been fixed and removed



-Oils Health Reduced to 10%



-Left Minaret Now has Four Piles of Supplies, Civilian drivers beware one of the piles have been unloaded on the road and signs have been put to prevent trafic accidents.

We thank you for your patience for this trafic jam. Bringing the total amount of possible expansion supply points to three even if this is the lowest amount for the highest risk due to the garrison involved.




-The supplies are now straight for ease of base building.



-Smiley Face added to the right expansion point.


Fishermans dock can now effectively attack units on the other side and supply amounts of been equalized to tottal left flank



-The Plateau has been added

This is an important changed mentioned here before:
Elevated route on the right side has been changed as its role in ROTR is not the same as it was in zero hour. In Zero hour, it was meant to be a structure that could bombard the lower supplies by a sneaky lotus as capture was not default like in ROTR.Or it was an alternative flanking or backdoor path you could use.

Now its key goal is to provide both fire support to anyone approaching this area, but is held back by its shells slow projectile speed and accuracy, or, to provide fire support to destory the contested fishing dock in the lower area.
Players can now build in the plateau but buildspace is limited, those who seek shelter in the elevated easily defendable position will have themselves locked in as theres one way in which is the same way out. They should be carefully not to loose the garrison and have their supply collection denied, should it be contested they can seek refuge above till its safe once again.



-Many Cosmetic changes have been added, Too many to list here.



-BBunkers and its elevated cliff moved to closer to its natural players position and entrance to base.
(Speed Bumps for this maps are the SandBag Walls)


Speed Bump mechanic has been added.

Speed bumps are basically objects that will either block a paths access or line of sight. This is a mechanic that has been spoken of many times but never fully implemented. These will generally be to prevent the superiority of certain areas over others in theorized game stages. Example: Bunkers position on this map by default makes the left flank nearly unaproachable without garrison clearing that is not always a guarantee. Speed bump locks out half of its effectiveness till they are destroyed, leaving nothing to mess with building or path finding when destroyed.

-Bunkers now block small left side entrence flank with Highly damaged speed bump for a temporary choke point

-Bunkers for the previous change have now been blocked out of left corner flank thanks to more sturdy Speed Bumps. Players can use this a backdoor flanking opportunity early to mid game until the bunkers overall effectiveness can be contested, with dedicated anti-garrison units or artillery. While the natural player can create space for his foe, an effective way is to destory the sturdy speed bumps and get their bunker fully effective.

-Middle path is wider thanks to lakes size reduction and total supply pile amount increased.




We hope you play this map and enjoy it, please leave any feedback HERE as just messaging forgetfull me on instant messangers might not cut it.But this maps craftsman will periodically check for feedback and take notes.

Deeman and (USA)Bruce


This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 12 Jul 2017, 22:35
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Lagoon__Dee_.rar ( 163.11K ) Number of downloads: 3
 


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Mizo
post 11 Jul 2017, 6:43
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I had 4 games against Drefty's ECA on this using all the factions, and I gotta say as a very loose first impression, the map does favor factions with Superior Urban prowess.
The likes of GLA and USA, factions can pretty much kick an opponent off the map with the aformentioned prowess using Combat Drops and cheap garrison clearing in the form of rebels.

The bunker position also makes it very hard or near impossible to rush the secondary supply of the enemy, giving USA alot more breathing space in regards to their supply line safety ( a drone hive near the primary and a handful of infantry in the bunker would fend off any early game attack). This goes for all factions, and it favors Russia as well, a faction which is known for its early game weakness due to slow mobility, now don't really need to station their units at their secondary supply if expected a rush unless fighting a foe like GLA, and even then, with enough infantry garrisoned inside the bunker, it can fend them off.

China has a rather easy time on this map as well, with their early game potency they have the capability of getting all 3 middle supplies without being competed too much unless they are fighting high mobility factions. This gets them to snowball due to their good primary economy income rate.

ECA is locked behind a very strict Build order due to the heavy emphasis on garrisons, they have to build a barracks first before supplies with thier first dozer, to get the Anti-garrison weapons Asap. Why? because all key middle supplies and oils are serrounded by garrisons, meaning that if ECA wants to get a hold of those supplies, they need their anti-garrison upgrade as soon as possible. The enemy defensve bunker also hinders any rush attempt they have, especially dozer based, so this pretty much kills any potential chance for an early offensive ECA play, because there will only be 1 viable dozer path, that is on the right , unless the player wont garrison that bunker , which is very unlikely. Tier 0 Pandurs can work, but again they are locked only to one path, due to the upgrade requirement for anti-garrison weaponary, and the fact that a warfactory openning in addition to the upgrade rushing is a very expensive investment early game. Another problem that is posed is the fact that ECA's first dozer will always be dedicated to a barracks rush as soon as possible, while the enemy will have the freedom moving their first dozer to the other expansion of the map, securing that expansion before them, since they don't really have to worry about Urban attrition warfare anytime soon. The potential for the greedy 3-dozer build by other factions is ridiculously heavy in this on.

While the map itself is less obnoxious than Homeland Rocks ( Oh god....) it still possess the same type of issues.


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Zion
post 11 Jul 2017, 15:23
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The original is fine... the only thing i think is unbalanced in original is that u can kill one of the oils in a garrison, and the other side can't.. just cuz bruce cant position his supply centers like he wants to.. dont mean its a bad map tongue.gif

Homeland rocks is a guaranteed win with oil rush.. that gla dominates in.. i agree with you on that mizo. it it is horrible
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Skitt
post 11 Jul 2017, 20:30
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QUOTE (Zion @ 11 Jul 2017, 15:23) *
The original is fine... the only thing i think is unbalanced in original is that u can kill one of the oils in a garrison, and the other side can't.. just cuz bruce cant position his supply centers like he wants to.. dont mean its a bad map tongue.gif


not true, main imba on that map is the hut next to the sups on the right, its los is blocked by the supply's towards the south.
aka south player can garrison it and deny the top, where as top taking it doesnt deny the south.


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Zion
post 12 Jul 2017, 15:31
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QUOTE (Skitt @ 11 Jul 2017, 15:30) *
not true, main imba on that map is the hut next to the sups on the right, its los is blocked by the supply's towards the south.
aka south player can garrison it and deny the top, where as top taking it doesnt deny the south.

You would be the guy to call one of the most played rotr maps imba
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(USA)Bruce
post 12 Jul 2017, 22:35
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QUOTE (Zion @ 12 Jul 2017, 17:31) *
You would be the guy to call one of the most played rotr maps imba


A map being the most played, doesnt mean its perfect or most fun or even the most equal.

Cairo commandos is a favorite for most mods I've been involved with,even if the base version gives the three oils:
-The left one is the left one is the best one in the game
-The top one has a line of sight/problem shooting out of it for the other side so you can capture it without being at risk if you come from bellow
-The bottom one lacks a garrison entirely, having an out of place jail tower

Aside from that, the most overplayed map in the entirety of zh and her mods (TD) Has so many minifixes, for pathing,textures, balence etc that I could find 50 versions of it.

Also a bump to the new thread that talks about this that has the ECA problems Mizo mentioned fixed!
GET THE MOST RECENT VERSION NOW


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Zion
post 13 Jul 2017, 14:11
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QUOTE ((USA)Bruce @ 12 Jul 2017, 17:35) *
A map being the most played, doesnt mean its perfect or most fun or even the most equal.

Cairo commandos is a favorite for most mods I've been involved with,even if the base version gives the three oils:
-The left one is the left one is the best one in the game
-The top one has a line of sight/problem shooting out of it for the other side so you can capture it without being at risk if you come from bellow
-The bottom one lacks a garrison entirely, having an out of place jail tower

Aside from that, the most overplayed map in the entirety of zh and her mods (TD) Has so many minifixes, for pathing,textures, balence etc that I could find 50 versions of it.

Also a bump to the new thread that talks about this that has the ECA problems Mizo mentioned fixed!
GET THE MOST RECENT VERSION NOW

actually no.. the reason everyone plays it .. is its most balanced for rotr. 1v1s vs all the other maps out there
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Marakar
post 25 Jul 2017, 10:37
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QUOTE
actually no.. the reason everyone plays it .. is its most balanced for rotr. 1v1s vs all the other maps out there


By that logic old TD was balanced because everybody played it during the time of Gamespy servers for ZH, but now we have a Relax version of TD that is a lot more balanced tongue.gif



As for map feedback itself, I'd say I really like the way the map is designed. More expansions is always welcome to see in a ROTR map yet the vertical layout prevents it from being ridiculously easy for factions such as GLA and USA to contest all the resources on the map. I'd say the oils might be too easy to get rid off but I do see its reasoning and how its a more justified alternative to oil wells (more incentive). Overall, I really like this version, and would prefer this version over the one I created a while ago. Played a couple games on it with Red Army and will give a more detailed review on the map soon.

This post has been edited by Marakar: 25 Jul 2017, 12:25


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Oliver
post 25 Jul 2017, 13:18
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QUOTE
image with bastion walls


You defeat any purpose of cosmetics in maps, when you place Bastion Walls that look so out of place like that lol
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Zion
post 25 Jul 2017, 14:45
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after playing this map like 20 times.. just want to say,, those walls and "anti" rush constriction.. is useless... I would just keep the map like it is.. and get rid of the walls. also I noticed you can't build past the wall.. this is horrible for eca.. plus imo, i dont have time to shoot random drebis to clear a path
its was a decent idea.. but if those walls and non-constructable zones exist.. id prefer the old version.

but the rest of the map is nice.. and brings a refreshed version of lagoon
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(USA)Bruce
post 25 Jul 2017, 15:52
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QUOTE (Oliver @ 25 Jul 2017, 15:18) *
You defeat any purpose of cosmetics in maps, when you place Bastion Walls that look so out of place like that lol


This is the closest we have to neutral destructable walls that block line of sight so they'll be staying.

QUOTE (Zion @ 25 Jul 2017, 16:45) *
after playing this map like 20 times.. just want to say,, those walls and "anti" rush constriction.. is useless... I would just keep the map like it is.. and get rid of the walls. also I noticed you can't build past the wall.. this is horrible for eca.. plus imo, i dont have time to shoot random drebis to clear a path
its was a decent idea.. but if those walls and non-constructable zones exist.. id prefer the old version.

but the rest of the map is nice.. and brings a refreshed version of lagoon


Well If I remove them then all in rushes wont be punished by the bunker as much and the bunker will block both sides, making the bunker a must have.Ruining the chances of flanking or going for the second supply without antigarrison/artillery.
They are there for a reason and they're staying.They are not meant to stop rushes entirely, just help and also provide a flanking route till your foe clears them.
So they are not meant to stop the first rush either, and even with 200% hp the are pretty weak.Get one unit for each and force fire, they'll be gone before you realise.
Also you can build on any terrain as long as you destroy the object, from tech buildings to garrisons to walls.This rule applies to all of it.


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Zion
post 26 Jul 2017, 17:57
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QUOTE ((USA)Bruce @ 25 Jul 2017, 10:52) *
They are there for a reason and they're staying.They are not meant to stop rushes entirely, just help and also provide a flanking route till your foe clears them.

The wall causes a block to the bunker, and you can't fire over the wall.. so u can only fire infront... so allowing rushes on the flank, and the inf inside the bunker cant attack anything to the left of the wall.. so idk if that is intended.. but the wall actually does more harm imo
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Mizo
post 27 Jul 2017, 10:17
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If I recall correctly, I think it is intended, as it falls to one of old complains that him and I brought up in regards to how powerful the bunker position id, making it pointless to rush the left side without anti-garrisons. That's why the walls exist, to keep left early game rushes viable. ( Had all the factions get their anti-garrisons accessed at the same time, everything would be alot different)

This post has been edited by Mizo: 27 Jul 2017, 10:18


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(USA)Bruce
post 27 Jul 2017, 14:07
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QUOTE (Mizo @ 27 Jul 2017, 12:17) *
If I recall correctly, I think it is intended, as it falls to one of old complains that him and I brought up in regards to how powerful the bunker position id, making it pointless to rush the left side without anti-garrisons. That's why the walls exist, to keep left early game rushes viable. ( Had all the factions get their anti-garrisons accessed at the same time, everything would be alot different)


Yes this was the vision, like I stated many times before in this thread, the bunker can cover both flanks, but theres walls so tilll they are destroyed the flank is still open.

If the walls werent there then that bunker would dominate that flank and it would basically be closed.So to avoid this I just added a "speed bump"
Just leave 5 redguards to force fire on them, they'll die before you realise, sadly this isnt zh where that bunker can be cleared up at t0 by all factions so this is done instead.


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