Praying man let his daughter die Options

[Overdose]

Praying man let his daughter die
Dale Neumann faces up to 25 years in prison

"A US jury has found a man guilty of killing his sick 11-year-old daughter by praying for her recovery rather than seeking medical care.

The man, Dale Neumann, told a court in the state of Wisconsin he believed God could heal his daughter.

She died of a treatable disease - undiagnosed diabetes - at home in rural Wisconsin in March last year, as people surrounded her and prayed.

Neumann's wife, Leilani Neumann, was convicted earlier this year.

The couple, who were both convicted of second-degree reckless homicide, face up to 25 years in prison when they are sentenced in October.

A lawyer representing Dale Neumann said he would appeal.

'Faith healing'

During the trial, medical experts told the court that Neumann's daughter could have survived if she had received treatment, including insulin and fluids, before she stopped breathing.

On Thursday Neumann, who is 47 and studied in the past to be a Pentecostal minister, said he thought God would heal his daughter.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," he said. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

He also said he thought his daughter had had flu or a fever, and that he had not realised how ill she was.

Neumann's lawyer said he had been convinced that his "faith healing" was working, and that he had committed no crime.

The prosecution argued that Neumann had minimised his daughter's illness and that he had allowed her to die as a selfish act of faith.

They said the girl should have been taken to hospital because she was unable to walk, talk, eat or drink.

Instead, an ambulance was only called once the girl had stopped breathing."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm
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Religion? We're better off without it. There's too many corrupted and insane men in power dictating how you should live your life. The masses; a bunch of lunatics, follow every command fanatically. Religion is a powerful weapon and is always used by the wrong hands. Religion is no different from a disease or a drug, it spreads, it taints and it kills. Thousands of years of murder, plundering, enslavement and rape in the name of a certain god or some insane prophet. The annihilation of entire civilizations, cultures and races. Religion like xenophobia and racism among other evils are the cesspool of the mind of man.

Live your life how you want to, how you deserve to. Your actions decide the consequences and not god! Every man is born with common sense. Use it! Keep your head up! Do not live in fear! You are in control of your own fate.

[Comr4de]

"God Helps those who helps themselves." Literally mentioned in different wording on the bible multiple times. While yes I may have a different view on religion it does help bing about some sort of order but those under it should also know of common sense and outright the same thing which was bestowed upon you. Your mind and your brain.


I hate to say this to the parents but, FAIL.

While I wont deny the fact that in some miracle prayer healing does work, why not use the most effective way to do it and just go the doctor? It's like saying no to a boat and equipment when your just about to hit some rapids with some friends and instead take a log for the ride. Your just asking for it at that point.

[Stinger]

The poor girl didn't really have a chance at life with a father like him. If he neglected the girl on her deathbed then I just dread to think about the kind of upbringing she had.

While this case focuses on religion, it is just an extreme example of human stupidity when people are unquestioning and follow beliefs to the letter.

[Boidy]

Religion didn't kill that poor girl. A couple of morons did.

Don't blame the belief system, blame the stupidity of the individuals.

[DefinitelyNotHob...]

Religion didn't kill that poor girl. A couple of morons did.

Don't blame the belief system, blame the stupidity of the individuals.

This man speaks the truth.

I know more than my fair share of religious people, and none of them would do something like this.

[Razven]

I completely agree with Comrade and Rorschach.

[RaiDK]

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," he said. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

Ugh, what rubbish. That's not how faith works at all...

[Zeke]

Ugh, what rubbish. That's not how faith works at all...

Indeed, doctors and medicine are gifts from God afterall.

This post has been edited by Zeke: 3 Aug 2009, 10:54

[RaiDK]

Well, they are.

The definition of faith isn't "Do nothing and wait for God to solve all your problems"

[Shock]

There are so many people with a religion in this world, that I could give you another ten examples of this. Like Overdose I could use them as well to rant about the macrocosmic pests and everything you named there in the little paragraph, but I feel that's a bit pointless.

There's always the lunatics, and if it's not religion, there will be some other reason, like alternative medicine, to get a man to commit culpable homicide. There's no religion required for that.

[Wi-Ta]

Random religion + simple minds = killing people
We did see this many times and i am afraid we will see this many time more.

[JJ]

You're moving a serious topic to the "Random nonsense and spam" place...?

[Shock]

Just because your own rants are not really constructive, while its a very serious subject.

Not the most desirable course of action.

[Shiro]

@Overdose: This IS a serious topic, so it has actually nothing to do with the Loony Bin, so PLEASE move it back, and give the people after your last post a better chance to talk about it the right way.
Also, just an other example of how religious people follow their belief blindly. Yes, religion does not kill people, and yes, idiots like those 2 kill people because they are not rational. Following a belief blindly is the same what many others did, and commonly ends catastrophical, as seen here.

[Overdose]

I'm sorry everyone I had to stay up late for the ROTR update I've been pushing my body to the limit by trying to stay awake longer than Comr4de and I'm practically OD'ing on caffeine and sugar and /tg/. I apologize for any nonsense I posted. Although this is my thread I've returned it to GD so you can discuss it further as you requested. My bad.

[Shiro]

I'm sorry everyone I had to stay up late for the ROTR update I've been pushing my body to the limit by trying to stay awake longer than Comr4de and I'm practically OD'ing on caffeine and sugar and /tg/. I apologize for any nonsense I posted. Although this is my thread I've returned it to GD so you can discuss it further as you requested. My bad.

I think everyone understands this. Like I posted already, the only non-sense in this thread is the non-sense those parents commited.

[RaiDK]

Saying religion is killing people is just like saying violent video games are killing people, tbh.

[Overdose]

Hey buddy as far as I know a video game has never caused wars. Now how many wars have started because or for religion in history? More than you can count.

[Alias]

Hey buddy as far as I know a video game has never caused wars. Now how many wars have started because or for religion in history? More than you can count.

I think it's more people using religion as an excuse to go to war, rather than the actual religion itself.
One of the most basic and most common tenets of almost all modern religions is actually peace itself, it is just very easy for people to shift the blame on religion, race, etc.

[MARS]

My main gripe with religion is that it seems to be the only institution that doesn't have to justify themselves and deliver actual evidence for their theories. "God did that. You can't prove that he doesn't exist, therefore I win" seems to be their main argument in most cases. Whenever there's a question that science can't answer yet, the religious folks'll say that god did it which makes them look really smart in the eyes of the masses who'd rather imagine that the universe was created by an entity 'that created man after its own image' rather than the more complicated, mind-boggling scientific theories. The only thing that keeps religion from becoming utterly obsolete is death. Man has always been afraid of death and religion, unlike science or even the most imaginative secular agitators, seems to have a simple answer as to what happens after we kick the bucket: The good people go to heaven, the bad people - and those who don't believe in our god - go to hell. It's an idiotic concept, but for some people, this seems to be a satisfying answer because they're in desperate need of comfort.

[Overdose]

I have nothing against god or faith. I'm agnostic. Sure I believe 'god' likely doesn't exist but at least I'm open to palpable evidence that might convince me otherwise. What you people fail to understand is that religion wasn't made by your god. Your religion was created by a man, who could not have had the best of intentions in mind or maybe he was 'cuckoo' in the head. Humans are created with flaws and we create flawed things and since we created religions, these religions are flawed as well. Its a very simple concept.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to believe in god that's fine. Just don't let a book or some preacher tell you how you should act or think. Think only for yourself.

[Shiro]

I have nothing against god or faith. I'm agnostic. Sure I believe 'god' likely doesn't exist but at least I'm open to palpable evidence that might convince me otherwise. What you people fail to understand is that religion wasn't made by your god. Your religion was created by a man, who could not have had the best of intentions in mind or maybe he was 'cuckoo' in the head. Humans are created with flaws and we create flawed things and since we created religions, these religions are flawed as well. Its a very simple concept.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to believe in god that's fine. Just don't let a book or some preacher tell you how you should act or think. Think only for yourself.

Truest word of the day IMO.

[Pickysaurus]

I have nothing against god or faith. I'm agnostic. Sure I believe 'god' likely doesn't exist but at least I'm open to palpable evidence that might convince me otherwise. What you people fail to understand is that religion wasn't made by your god. Your religion was created by a man, who could not have had the best of intentions in mind or maybe he was 'cuckoo' in the head. Humans are created with flaws and we create flawed things and since we created religions, these religions are flawed as well. Its a very simple concept.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to believe in god that's fine. Just don't let a book or some preacher tell you how you should act or think. Think only for yourself.

Quoted For Truth

[beefJeRKy]

I have nothing against god or faith. I'm agnostic. Sure I believe 'god' likely doesn't exist but at least I'm open to palpable evidence that might convince me otherwise. What you people fail to understand is that religion wasn't made by your god. Your religion was created by a man, who could not have had the best of intentions in mind or maybe he was 'cuckoo' in the head. Humans are created with flaws and we create flawed things and since we created religions, these religions are flawed as well. Its a very simple concept.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to believe in god that's fine. Just don't let a book or some preacher tell you how you should act or think. Think only for yourself.

I agree people must live in the real world. You can think whatever you like about the so-called afterlife, but reason should be your ultimate guide in life. And reason does not HAVE to contradict the idea of a God that exists. I must leave now, so perhaps I'll expand my point later.

[NergiZed]

Eh, faith healing, a subject I detest on the greatest of levels. It's tragic and sad that somebody has to die because someone else feels that they'll be healed miraculously, even more so by the fact that this happens all the time. While every now and then it offers a comforting placebo effect, the grand majority of times it hurts those who undertake 'faith healing'. Not at all surprised that this is happened in America.

I'm agnostic, so I think a big 'I don't know if God exists' is good enough. I'm also fairly neutral towards religion as a whole, as sometimes it can make people donate their time and money to a good cause. However, it just seems that so much better to do good things simply out of good will rather than doing good things for the sake of going to heaven or avoiding the wraith of your deity.

While news like this is tragic, I do see a hint of the cruel realities of Darwinism at work here.

This post has been edited by NergiZed: 3 Aug 2009, 20:50