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Railgun Disscusion
Shiro
post 6 Aug 2009, 17:33
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This thread has been presented and created by seperating it from the other thread by yours truly:

THE_HUNTER

No KamuiK's have taken damage while doing so.

My opinion:
There should be no recoil animation - Railguns have no recoil (ok, they also have no sound, no muzzle flash, no muzzle smoke amongst other things, so your decision^^).

This post has been edited by The_Hunter: 7 Aug 2009, 0:29
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Rade
post 6 Aug 2009, 18:10
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What makes you think that the rail guns don't have a recoil.
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The_Hunter
post 6 Aug 2009, 18:27
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what your refferng to is a Laser Kamiuk not a Railgun which is very different from a laser.


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BlitzGeneral
post 6 Aug 2009, 19:03
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Railguns strike me more as ECA thing anyway. :/
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Shiro
post 6 Aug 2009, 19:20
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QUOTE (The_Hunter @ 6 Aug 2009, 16:27) *
what your refferng to is a Laser Kamiuk not a Railgun which is very different from a laser.

A Laser has no recoil and other tings either, but a railgun cannot have a recoil, since it shots a bullet via electricity instead of a chemical reaction. I know how railguns and also gaussguns work, trust me.
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Dutchygamer
post 6 Aug 2009, 19:23
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QUOTE (KamuiK @ 6 Aug 2009, 17:20) *
A Laser has no recoil and other tings either, but a railgun cannot have a recoil, since it shots a bullet via electricity instead of a chemical reaction. I know how railguns and also gaussguns work, trust me.

I do think there is recoil, else the projectile wouldn't fire. Action-reaction right? Even though with railguns it's more that the barrel would bend instead of recoiling, but that is a different subject...


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Alias
post 6 Aug 2009, 19:24
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A railgun has to have recoil as it is a projectile weapon (rails being the operative word here, the projectile makes contact with the 'rails', I think what you're thinking of is a coilgun). It is basic physics that it must exert the same force backwards on the barrel that it exerts on the projectile itself.

This post has been edited by Alias: 6 Aug 2009, 19:26


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Anubis
post 6 Aug 2009, 20:01
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As far as i know railguns do not have a recoil. According to the same physics law, the recoil force is equal with the force that pushes the projectile out ( action/reaction ). If this was the case, the recoil would be huge for a projectile that travels at over 20000 km/h . Railguns use electrcity to launch the projectile not explosives. Electricity is a one way force ( an electron wave ) not a 2 ways force ( such as an explosion ). The only viable railgun i/ve seen so far is the one in Transfromers 2. It had no recoil, and the projectile was launched via a complex railsystem. So i'm with kamuik on this. Railguns do not have a recoil, or else the whole damn turret would fly off from it's support ( crazy mod abrams style tongue.gif ).
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Shiro
post 6 Aug 2009, 20:07
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QUOTE (Anubis @ 6 Aug 2009, 18:01) *
As far as i know railguns do not have a recoil. According to the same physics law, the recoil force is equal with the force that pushes the projectile out ( action/reaction ). If this was the case, the recoil would be huge for a projectile that travels at over 20000 km/h . Railguns use electrcity to launch the projectile not explosives. Electricity is a one way force ( an electron wave ) not a 2 ways force ( such as an explosion ). The only viable railgun i/ve seen so far is the one in Transfromers 2. It had no recoil, and the projectile was launched via a complex railsystem. So i'm with kamuik on this. Railguns do not have a recoil, or else the whole damn turret would fly off from it's support ( crazy mod abrams style tongue.gif ).


Quoted for correct explanation.
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Comr4de
post 6 Aug 2009, 21:31
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QUOTE (Anubis @ 6 Aug 2009, 11:01) *
As far as i know railguns do not have a recoil. According to the same physics law, the recoil force is equal with the force that pushes the projectile out ( action/reaction ). If this was the case, the recoil would be huge for a projectile that travels at over 20000 km/h . Railguns use electrcity to launch the projectile not explosives. Electricity is a one way force ( an electron wave ) not a 2 ways force ( such as an explosion ). The only viable railgun i/ve seen so far is the one in Transfromers 2. It had no recoil, and the projectile was launched via a complex railsystem. So i'm with kamuik on this. Railguns do not have a recoil, or else the whole damn turret would fly off from it's support ( crazy mod abrams style tongue.gif ).


Now you can say you've seen a real one instead of basing it off what you've read or seen in movies. Obviously the creation and execution of a railgun is not set in stone but what I can tell you is this:

Railguns were given to the Russians since to me they're blunt weapons thrown out of a cannon faster than you can say 'Oh SHI-'. Russian Railguns are nothing more than a metalic rod shot out of magnetic railings (you can assume there's some tesla tech in them as well to correlate the theme) and are thrown to targets by pure kinetic energy. No explosive inside it it just whatever was getting hit by it just went kaboom due to the huge penetrated hole it created. It wont have of the shitty effects CnC has done for railguns with fairy like waves or lines coming from it -- no, just a bang and a frame of a metal rod going up your tanks bum hole 8Ip.png


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tempestora
post 6 Aug 2009, 21:56
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Hey everyone, long time lurker (shockwave0.92 i think), obviously new poster, needed to correct some misinformation and misunderstanding here about the laws of physics pertaining to magnetically accelerated weapon systems.

Sorry guys, but thats not how railguns/coilguns work, in fact, thats not how the universe works.

why do i know this? High School Physics

Why do I know this in great depth? 3rd Year BSc in Nanotechnology at UNSW and general geekiness (kinematics is extensively covered in PHYS1131)

And with a simple explanation of Newtons laws of motion, I'll demonstrate why you are wrong, but first some clarifications and definitions.

Rail Gun: a set of electrified conducting parallel rails (which means a strong magnetic field surrounding the rails) which form an incomplete circuit, and a projectile which is placed at one end (suspended between the two rails in a manner that allows it to move freely along the rails) which completes the circuit, allowing a large current to pass across and as such that it interacts significantly with the surrounding magnetic fields (Electromotive Force) and hence accelerating under the lorentz force (right hand rule people! year 11 physics!)

Coil Gun: a series of electromagnetic coils arranged in a linear manner, which are precisely controlled to turn on and off so as to pull/push a ferromagnetic projectile through and accelerate it.

In both sets, electromagnetism (either the lorentz force which is the force acting on a conducting material in a magnetic field & uses the same effect, but in a different manner) is used to accelerate the projectile, the huge speeds they can reach is due to the magnitude of amperes that can passed along those systems. Thats why they use lighter ammunition, since KE=m(v^2), and that juicy squared velocity term means that you can more easily and cheapely increase the kinetic energy of impact of the projectile by increasing its speed rather than mass. But that kinetic energy term (which pops out of F=ma when you differentiate) also applies to the rails or coils in the respective weapons. Its the same force, applied backwards, but over a much larger mass, and hence much lower velocity. when you accelerate something forward, you are also accelerating something backwards (thats how rockets work, its the same law governing it, F=ma, and why they would rather use very light fuels like hydrogen to accelerate, because they have a better velocity term. bad explanation, i'll edit it after i get some sleep).

There is still recoil in this system, since just because you are using a different type of fundamental force, namely pressure from the expansion of a gas, and electromagnetism *actually not really, both are electromagnetic, i'll let you wonder why* to impart kinetic energy to something, doesnt mean there is a seperate set of laws governing the acceleration of objects. its all newtonian in nature my friends. Your transformers movie got it wrong.

thus concludes my insomnia inspired explanation.

this would have all been the more easy if i had thought to post a link to wiki, but i'll be damned if i delete all that work.
some reading if you are interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1q_rRicAwI cool firing video
http://science.howstuffworks.com/rail-gun1.htm

please feel free to correct any mistakes, i blame it on the 5 bottles of wine and lack of sleep biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by tempestora: 6 Aug 2009, 21:58
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Destiny
post 6 Aug 2009, 22:14
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QUOTE (tempestora @ 7 Aug 2009, 1:56) *
Hey everyone, long time lurker (shockwave0.92 i think), obviously new poster, needed to correct some misinformation and misunderstanding here about the laws of physics pertaining to magnetically accelerated weapon systems.

Sorry guys, but thats not how railguns/coilguns work, in fact, thats not how the universe works.

why do i know this? High School Physics

Pardon me for being blunt but...

"This is a game." 8I.gif I know it might be a game and making it semi-realistic looks cool and such but...


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Comr4de
post 6 Aug 2009, 22:18
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Welcome to the forums tempestora, you know your stuff man, and it is exactly how'd we make our railguns to be.

QUOTE (Destiny @ 6 Aug 2009, 13:14) *
Pardon me for being blunt but...

"This is a game." 8I.gif I know it might be a game and making it semi-realistic looks cool and such but...


Doesn't mean we can't just make Railguns awesome from what you can gather in this information. Do I have to say it?

Simple metallic rod + Railgun + force + tank target = big ass hole on the side with explosion from internal damage (big bang). aw.gif


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Destiny
post 6 Aug 2009, 22:35
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QUOTE (Comr4de @ 7 Aug 2009, 2:18) *
Simple metallic rod + Railgun + force + tank target = big ass hole on the side with explosion from internal damage (big bang). aw.gif

Perfectly worded there I8.gif

Edit: ...ahaha~

This post has been edited by Destiny: 6 Aug 2009, 23:39


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Shiro
post 6 Aug 2009, 22:48
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QUOTE (Comr4de @ 6 Aug 2009, 20:18) *
Doesn't mean we can't just make Railguns awesome from what you can gather in this information. Do I have to say it?

Simple metallic rod + Railgun + force + tank target = big ass hole on the side with explosion from internal damage (big bang). aw.gif


It was not his critique to use them at all, it was his critique about what Anubis and I said about Railguns. About having no recoil. Also, I know how a Gaussgun works as well, and I say it now just as on other locations: I will not start a flame war. As long as someone shows me a Railgun with recoil, I will stay on the opinion that my last Railgun had no recoil.

Also, question: any idea on remodeling/improving the russian Command Bunker?

This post has been edited by KamuiK: 6 Aug 2009, 22:49
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Nidmeister
post 6 Aug 2009, 22:52
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QUOTE (tempestora @ 6 Aug 2009, 18:56) *
*Huge post making perfect sense*


This my friends, is how a first post should be.


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Raven
post 6 Aug 2009, 22:56
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QUOTE (Comr4de @ 6 Aug 2009, 18:31) *

Now you can say you've seen a real one instead of basing it off what you've read or seen in movies. Obviously the creation and execution of a railgun is not set in stone but what I can tell you is this:

Railguns were given to the Russians since to me they're blunt weapons thrown out of a cannon faster than you can say 'Oh SHI-'. Russian Railguns are nothing more than a metalic rod shot out of magnetic railings (you can assume there's some tesla tech in them as well to correlate the theme) and are thrown to targets by pure kinetic energy. No explosive inside it it just whatever was getting hit by it just went kaboom due to the huge penetrated hole it created. It wont have of the shitty effects CnC has done for railguns with fairy like waves or lines coming from it -- no, just a bang and a frame of a metal rod going up your tanks bum hole 8Ip.png


Well i would mean more or less like the LOSAT humvee isn't it? It also uses kinetic projectiles


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tempestora
post 6 Aug 2009, 22:59
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Haha sorry, i wasnt asking the railguns to be like that, i just saw someone posting information that didnt match up to reality as im aware of it being and was hoping to demonstrate that there is a more accurate scientific model available.

No requests from me, its purely posted to hopefully convince KumuiK and Anubis that there version of kinematics doesnt sync with the general consensus.

i had an xkcd moment http://xkcd.com/386/ what can i say.

Actually most of the damage from the rod would be from spalling, plus, at a high enough velocity (in atmosphere) it will have started to melt. And liquid hot iron doesnt do wonders to your fragile meatbags driving the tank, at 0m/s or 3000m/s tongue.gif

hmm next thing to figure out, air friction at 3000m/s of a cylinder vs melting point of conductive alloys...

@Raven:
Similiar in terms of how they do damage, no explosive warheads, just absurd kinetic energies involved. The method of propelling the projectile is different though.

@Nidmeister
Thank you very much, I hope I can be as some asset to the community in terms of discourse

@KamuiK
im sorry that i cant physically demonstrate it to you, but its a matter of doing a force diagram. check out the published answer from the Department of Energy answer, it will clear things up more concisely than i did. http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askas...ysics/PHY24.HTM

EDIT: cheers, sorry for derailing the thread.

This post has been edited by tempestora: 6 Aug 2009, 23:19
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The_Hunter
post 6 Aug 2009, 23:14
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Since this is a interesting topic but was beeing posted in the wrong place i'v token the liberty of seperating it from the original thread disscus away wink.gif


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Shiro
post 7 Aug 2009, 0:19
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Can someone please lock this piece of sh!t? Thank you. I did not start this topic, so remove that thing.

Edit: scratch that.

This post has been edited by KamuiK: 7 Aug 2009, 0:21
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Shock
post 7 Aug 2009, 0:30
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I am very interested in your explanation on how a chemical explosion is actually also elektromagnetic force. I8.gif

QUOTE (tempestora @ 6 Aug 2009, 20:59) *
@KamuiK
im sorry that i cant physically demonstrate it to you, but its a matter of doing a force diagram. check out the published answer from the Department of Energy answer, it will clear things up more concisely than i did. http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askas...ysics/PHY24.HTM

EDIT: cheers, sorry for derailing the thread.

Cheers! Now we finally know why EA's laser tanks have recoil!


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Overdose
post 7 Aug 2009, 0:42
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I doubt somehow EA researched that much.


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tempestora
post 7 Aug 2009, 2:09
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@Shock

ahh well, exothermic chemical energy (an explosion is a exceedingly rapid exothermic reaction) is energy released in the formation of bonds (its not stored in the bonds! common mistake, its released in the formation of bonds as it goes down a thermodynamically favourable path. instability ->stability). Electrons are bonding covalently or ionically, and that happens through electrostatic forces (see where im going with this yet?). The actual enegy exchange is done by virtual particle interactions (photons for the curious) which is only on the peripherial of importance for my field, so i dont know much about that. Ask a particle physicist tongue.gif

Photons are electromagnetic energy packets, so at the very fundamental level, yep its all electromagnetic. But there is also the fact that when something collides with another, its the electrostatic repulsion that stops it passing right on through, again mediated by virtual photon interactions, which is how you get pressure tongue.gif

If i actually understood it properly, id go into how everything that we understand is ultimately modelled accurately by the electroweak theory, a combination of the electromagnetic forces and the weak nuclear forces into one force that breaks at low energies we experience.

tongue.gif but thats not my field, i have enough brain ache from my other courses to have my mind leak out my ears from the bizarre nature of quantum physics.

I can go into more depth if you like, but im starting to press the bounds of simple explanation and starting to need to go into some awful maths to make sense of it all.


@Overdose
Im sure that EA, with its focus on well thought out, realistic game physics, worried about accurately modelling photon momentum transfer. Id expect nothing else of a giant of the industry tongue.gif

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ultimentra
post 7 Aug 2009, 5:11
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Sorry for deviating from the topic at hand, but what are the main differences between Railguns, Gauss Guns, and Coil Guns?


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Lucid
post 7 Aug 2009, 6:37
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IIRC, a railgun is a weapon that uses like charges on the projectile and rails (used to guide it) so that the projectile is forced away.

in a coilgun, the charges in the weapon switch from + to - really fast, thus moving the projectile.

as for a gauss gun, i have no idea


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