IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Just a fun idea, Starcraft generals
Zion
post 19 Apr 2017, 14:56
Post #1



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 626
Joined: 2 April 2015
Member No.: 10992



What if, we create a game style that limits eco and units??

In sc unit production is limited to "200 overlords/pylons/depots" well i think that's kinda cool, cuz then we can actually balance all factions effectively.

in my opinion, we are pretty ok with balance with 1.87, but some factions are the turtle factions, that pretty much become unstoppable late game.. reason being there is no limit/eco cap, you kinda know you can win by sitting back and massing eco and units..
Lets just say we were to limit unit production to the amount of tier 2 eco?

here is a rough idea of what I am thinking.. :: and I mean rough.. im not really calculating anything, just proposing

each player right off the bat gets lets say 70 combat unit slots
teir1 will add 30 combat unit slots
teir2 adds another 30
and to reach 200 unit slots, you now have to build tier 2 eco, and lets say roughly one supply dock/telecom tower/arm suppler/2 hackers.. gives 2 combat unit slots.. and gla merchant upgrades will increase by 15(first upgrade) 20(2nd) 35(last), and when the 200 mark is reached, you can't build more eco

as far as units.. I think all tier0 and tier1 combat units/defenses take up one slot, tier2 units/defenses take up 2, super units and stuff may be a little more..
tier0 infantry should probably take up half a slot
buildings don't take up slots, unless they are for example gla camo windmills lol, those should probably take up a slot

drops? well id say if the limit gets exceeded when russia drops more conscripts for example.. thats fine, but units will have to die off, for more production. This also makes you think twice before you drop units.

Think about it...

Less mismatches cuz everyones crap pc can handle 200 units..
we can limit eca mines/gla demo traps/air spam/inf spam
you need to think before you build a certain type of unit... eca gets limited defense spam/howey spam...

alot of stuff that when spammed can get a deciding factor..
one thing we can agree upon is 2v2s are a bit unbalanced in rotr.. and for the most part all games become this mismatching eco spamming 2fps game style that can be balanced by making limits on units and tier 2 eco.

Something similar has been proposed before, im sure.. and looking at the work no one wants to do anything..

but really I don't think there is that much work to it... biggest deal is balancing 2nd eco.. making sure x amount of hackers will not overpower china vs x amount of towers eca... so on
and from there, limiting army size is easier, will take some time, but once completed.. there will be true balance in all factions..

generals powers might need adjustment, as well.
all for a price to make the game better.

Anyways this is more of a fun topic, what yall think?

This post has been edited by Zion: 19 Apr 2017, 14:57
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 19 Apr 2017, 16:32
Post #2


Certified Shitposter
Group Icon

Group: Tester
Posts: 2214
Joined: 30 December 2013
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 10248
I don't sense anything...



Mizo, Bruce and I are literally in a call discussing the same thing.


--------------------

Many thanks to IvanMRM for drawing my epic signature.
Also, check out our ROTR - Fan group on Facebook.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GeneralAziz
post 19 Apr 2017, 17:04
Post #3



Group Icon

Group: Donator
Posts: 162
Joined: 25 January 2016
From: Kuwait
Member No.: 12539



Nope bad idea.
PS:I think this should be in General Chat not rotr subforum.

This post has been edited by GeneralAziz: 19 Apr 2017, 17:05


--------------------
You'll never know when the Sabowatch hit you !
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Maelstrom
post 19 Apr 2017, 17:10
Post #4


Ze Big Cheese
Group Icon

Group: Dev. Team
Posts: 394
Joined: 19 May 2013
Member No.: 9941



Unit cap don't go well with C&C (Tiberium Twilight, rot in pieces >:@)
Plus, it will work very bad with some factions. Especially China, which relies on unit spam.


--------------------

My Soundcloud profile: right here
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
XAOC-RU-
post 19 Apr 2017, 17:13
Post #5



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 770
Joined: 29 April 2015
From: Uzbekistan, Tashkent city
Member No.: 11210



It may be a good idea but it will change game desigh and will remove that moment which make ROTR and other CnC games looking different against such games like SC WC and other unit-eco limit RTS. I think current game meta is not good and not bad. It's just what it should be like. (I remember some legal term : AS IS). I think this term shows all answers.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RedDeadSmeg
post 19 Apr 2017, 17:42
Post #6



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 26 September 2016
From: England
Member No.: 13220



While I understand a cap for online games, I think that it would take away a key element that made C&C a great series. No cap allows you to experiment with near limitless unit combinations and strategies while a cap would severely limit that. I don't no how many times I got frustrated with Twilight because of the low cap on that awful game.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mizo
post 19 Apr 2017, 17:50
Post #7


AI Coding Expert
Group Icon

Group: Dev. Team
Posts: 1558
Joined: 9 May 2014
From: Poland
Member No.: 10450



CODE
Mizo, Bruce and I are literally in a call discussing the same thing.


Am discussing about a faster game flow not this idea exactly.
But yeah unit caps did come up , and the reason why I hate it is because it's the laziest attempt for balancing, ( COH2 / WC3) Starcraft 2 is the exception but I personally dislike it since 1 unit is more worth than the other to occupy just 1 unit slot , as well as it's kind of limitng.

Rik,Bruce and I are talking more about game flow change and the issues of ROTR as a whole, some engine issues and other design issues ect... ( A.K.A Me telling them "Nope" to every idea they have tongue.gif)


--------------------


Not a Rusty Spoon........The_Hunter uses a goddamn wooden spoon on his AI Scripters....
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zion
post 19 Apr 2017, 18:40
Post #8



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 626
Joined: 2 April 2015
Member No.: 10992



QUOTE
But yeah unit caps did come up , and the reason why I hate it is because it's the laziest attempt for balancing,


Not sure why you would express it as "Lazy attempt on balancing"
it would be quite an overhaul.. and im looking more towards what is happening to 2v2s, its so slow, everyone is afraid to attack early on a "large" map, since there is no point, to win you need to spam eco.. and then eventually it will mismatch or die..

if the engine was better, and people didn't have shit pcs.. then cap wouldn't matter
since its the other way around.. a cap would 100 percent improve performance. and increase unit preservation/micro strategies, and avoiding eco spam games for those hate it... (since there are different types of people tongue.gif)

QUOTE
( COH2 / WC3) Starcraft 2 is the exception but I personally dislike it since 1 unit is more worth than the other to occupy just 1 unit slot , as well as it's kind of limitng.

Actually I talking about this in my first post.. some units will occupy more than one slot, and that's how it should be

QUOTE
No cap allows you to experiment with near limitless unit combinations and strategies

totally agree, that's why this idea should be activated by a check mark, near sw limit
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neo
post 19 Apr 2017, 20:01
Post #9


Curious Player
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 134
Joined: 12 June 2016
From: Turkey
Member No.: 12951



Hmm... I think tier 2 units and tier 1 units should have build limit. Not a bad idea but i think tier 0 units should be spammable and not make the build limit for tier 1 and tier 2 units like you can build only 10 inferno cannons etc. Make it higher. Secondary eco should have build limit but based on how much money it brings. And also this idea can't be implemented i think due to engine. I think we can just limit how many you can build.


--------------------
Human curiousity is sometimes a good thing or a bad thing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mizo
post 19 Apr 2017, 20:54
Post #10


AI Coding Expert
Group Icon

Group: Dev. Team
Posts: 1558
Joined: 9 May 2014
From: Poland
Member No.: 10450



It's not about unit build limits Neo, it's about a 'population cap". Now the question is whether this thing is possible and how to implement it in a way that keeps user informed how much Free cap is left for them rather than memorizing.

I'd say a better idea that also helps with optmization is removal if secondary economy and adding a slow regenerating primary economy.

It's all fun ideas though.


--------------------


Not a Rusty Spoon........The_Hunter uses a goddamn wooden spoon on his AI Scripters....
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zion
post 19 Apr 2017, 21:33
Post #11



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 626
Joined: 2 April 2015
Member No.: 10992



QUOTE
keeps user informed how much Free cap is left for them rather than memorizing.

Id pop a "123/200" ticker right near the cash
QUOTE
removal if secondary economy and adding a slow regenerating primary economy.

I think this would be nice for testing what each faction should be making to sustain itself vs other factions..
Then translate that to tier2 eco.. since different factions need a different money flow...
I think China needs a little more money income for example, since it needs to recover faster than other factions, that are more cost efficient. And also needs a higher population count to have that spam advantage.. Or better.. tier0 tanks take half a slot, like inf
And for example USA, needs a lower pop count, and normal supply income, because their units are very cost effective, and speed increases preservation.

With both players maxed out, it becomes a micro battle depending on the build choice you made.

This post has been edited by Zion: 19 Apr 2017, 21:39
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mizo
post 19 Apr 2017, 23:04
Post #12


AI Coding Expert
Group Icon

Group: Dev. Team
Posts: 1558
Joined: 9 May 2014
From: Poland
Member No.: 10450



Oh Primary economy rates will probably be altered to acoomidate faction limitations. Naturally China gets the highest income rate, followed by Russia , USA and GLA . ECA should have the lowest income rate due to the cost efficiency of their defenses and howitzers lel.

QUOTE
Id pop a "123/200" ticker right near the cash


Is that even possible though?


--------------------


Not a Rusty Spoon........The_Hunter uses a goddamn wooden spoon on his AI Scripters....
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 20 Apr 2017, 0:08
Post #13


Certified Shitposter
Group Icon

Group: Tester
Posts: 2214
Joined: 30 December 2013
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 10248
I don't sense anything...



its possible. Just use power to act as the population limit instead and have a cap on the number of powerplants you can have.
(this would fuck up everything yes, but it is technically possible as a mechanic)


--------------------

Many thanks to IvanMRM for drawing my epic signature.
Also, check out our ROTR - Fan group on Facebook.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lobo Solitario
post 21 Apr 2017, 12:21
Post #14



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 188
Joined: 28 April 2012
From: Spain
Member No.: 9093



I've never been a fan of unit caps either, it feels terribly artificial. But maybe some kind of limiter could be put on secondary income? Some ideas, not sure whether they'd be codeable, as I haven't really experimented with the economic side of things:

-For the non-GLA factions, each secondary income unit/building produced could perhaps debuff all the existing ones by a small amount, or put a small percentage debuff on overall income, so that the more you have, the less each produces, until the income levels off;
-Or there could be a cap specifically on the number of secondary income producers;
-Or (probably not doable) there could be a scripted cap on income per tick, with anything going over being lost
-Or the other factions could just do like the GLA and have an entirely new mechanic which doesn't revolve around spamming the same unit/building to get mo' money

Things like oil wells make for more interesting gameplay, as they allow the map designer to adjust the economy based on the map, and force players to contest points all over the map rather than just fight base to base.

This post has been edited by Lobo Solitario: 21 Apr 2017, 12:27
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rey
post 22 Apr 2017, 12:07
Post #15



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 311
Joined: 28 February 2014
Member No.: 10315



for some reason whole thread in short sound to me like "lets f**k up all that Generals are based on and copy/transform them into StartCraft".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zion
post 22 Apr 2017, 15:06
Post #16



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 626
Joined: 2 April 2015
Member No.: 10992



QUOTE (rey @ 22 Apr 2017, 7:07) *
for some reason whole thread in short sound to me like "lets f**k up all that Generals are based on and copy/transform them into StartCraft".

then you need some prescription glasses, and a change in your impetuous attitude.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Scud
post Yesterday, 8:16
Post #17



Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 148
Joined: 16 June 2015
From: Argentina - Buenos Aires - GADA 601 Base
Member No.: 11600



I would prefer to see some of the ideas of Lobo Solitario in game, specially the first one. The main reason is because another game made exactly with the SAGE engine did use it (Battle for Middle Earth) and because that way seems to be easier to balance applying a global percentage to every building/unit created like, for example:

USA second eco:
1 Supply Drop Zone: 100% income rate
2 Supply Drop Zone: 100% income rate
3 Supply Drop Zone: 100% income rate
4 Supply Drop Zone: 100% income rate
5 Supply Drop Zone: 80% income rate
6 Supply Drop Zone: 60% income rate
7 Supply Drop Zone: 40% income rate - Reduction limit -
8 Supply Drop Zone: 40% income rate

* with other factions the decrease should be lower 'cause the income is constant.


--------------------
In a world falling apart... ECA stands united
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24 April 2017 - 0:31