ECA and it's not OP Options

[Mizo]

Impossible to pull that off except if Russia delays its WF.
One side with 3 RPGs, other with a Wf.
If ECA eants to rush it they d need to go WF which is an expensive start for them with no real mid game potential.
If they go field com, thats a 10 seconds more delay for first GT.
If theu are using forts then simply use shmels.

[Neo]

Impossible to pull that off except if Russia delays its WF.
One side with 3 RPGs, other with a Wf.
If ECA eants to rush it they d need to go WF which is an expensive start for them with no real mid game potential.
If they go field com, thats a 10 seconds more delay for first GT.
If theu are using forts then simply use shmels.

I mostly see ECA players build field command instead of war factory sooo...
And also user is very fast about building...
Don't mess with user (xD)
Use RPGs against user
Basically know your enemy well...
Or you might make a very big mistake.
And also are you talking about 1.86 or 1.87 ?
Because i am talking about 1.86 Russia vs ECA.
You know ECA field command is cheap in 1.86.
Plus Dell didn't said the version he had when playing the match he is talking about.

This post has been edited by Neo: 29 Jul 2016, 19:25

[Mizo]

1.86 Russia can wipe put 1.86 ECA due to alot of reasons, same goes for 1.87

Feedback goes against countless games Me, Skit, Rikerz, Marakar and Bruce played where we all try to role reverse and came to the conclusion that if you know exactly how limited ECA is at which parts of the game, then it is very hard to loose against them.

One thing That's need to be noted is that if you want to put heavy pushes against ECA early midgame, attack at the weakest point because it is impossible for them to cover all of their flanks. Watch out for mines.

ECA is also not a very responsive faction, not until rank 3/4.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 29 Jul 2016, 19:31

[Mizo]

I've play with one guy(i dont know him) vs his ECA as Russia. And i have 2 quetions:

1)What i did wrong? I could not take 2 natural supply's in the middle and oils at start and in middle of the game(mines,tigers, fast AT guns, I chose the wrong direction to attack in the middle of the game). And in late as always, mass mines, mass howitzers and of course mass mortars. How i will counter that even with good 2 ECO?

2)Ok, you tell me where ive made mistake and i agreed with that, then tell me, what will do china with that + nerve gas+pandora?

Will check it soon and give you feedback. And against Pandora ECA you need massive economy otherwise its gg.

Against Mortar pits Wall, its a pain, but beleive it or not, pure unit spam will breakthrough ( and good Strategic GP usage, alongside hellfires.

6ou should not let ECA bunker in fully with extreme Defense cpverage against everything with wotan spam network, if youve reached a point where not even GPs are landing then you lost.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 29 Jul 2016, 19:35

[Neo]

Will check it soon and give you feedback. And against Pandora ECA you need massive economy otherwise its gg.

Against Mortar pits Wall, its a pain, but beleive it or not, pure unit spam will breakthrough ( and good Strategic GP usage, alongside hellfires.

6ou should not let ECA bunker in fully with extreme Defense cpverage against everything with wotan spam network, if youve reached a point where not even GPs are landing then you lost.

I know that.
Tho never saw Pandora ECA expect in matches against Al.

[chemisthypnos]

Not really just build barracks with the first dozer...
I always do that against a player does defence rush.

That will not work as well as you might think. Try implementing that concept against an ECA player that dozer rushes the outermost supply between you and your teammate on Fallen Forest. It will not work.

[XAOC-RU-]

Not really just build barracks with the first dozer...
I always do that against a player does defence rush.

On some maps like Dust Devil it doesn't work. You have only 50% to prevent dozer rush even if you build mishka and start to scout. ECA will reach supply at your side and will build GuardT before you will able to spam enough infantry to kill it's dozer. If you build Warfactory near second supply then ECA can use second dozer which will be in your main base and will start to build GuardT there and then Gun Turrets. If you build baracks on your main base and warfactory near second supply stash. THen ECA can just build barracks and bunker and garrison it with panzerfausts. I played vs ECA many times and dozer rush on certain maps is uncounterable.

[Mizo]

Guys you have to keep in mind that the dozer rush strat is EXTREMELY RISKY just as much as a proxy warfactory rush. It's a "go big or go home" that does require precise timing to execute properly, and if it works well its strong. Am surprised you're having issues with ECA's dozer rush and not GLA's dushka rushes, as they can preform those kind of rushes 10x better due to also having mobile units in the mix, and cheaper workers, meaning that they can cover both of your supplies via diversion. And GLA's Defense rush is not risky, you don't loose that much momentum in the game if it fails. ECA on the other hand ( the faction that is meant to be superior in this type of rushes) is pretty much gone from the game if dozer/GT were killed by early RPGs/Tanks.

On Dust Devil , the supply distances are not equal. Bottom player will always get his dozers 1 minute earlier than top player to the bottom right supplies, set up a barracks and get some RPGs out to stop the dozer rush. It doesn't work UNLESS you delay your dozer movement towards secondary supplies. Unless you give me a replay that proves me otherwise, I sincerely can't buy the talk. It doesn't make sense, unless its a map flaw.

And please don't play on maps where both secondary supplies are at same position in the middle of the map, as yeah ECA can go risky and take both, then again they would leave their base heavily exposed for an early bruteforce GG.

[P9K329]

where is replay films?

[Neo]

On some maps like Dust Devil it doesn't work. You have only 50% to prevent dozer rush even if you build mishka and start to scout. ECA will reach supply at your side and will build GuardT before you will able to spam enough infantry to kill it's dozer. If you build Warfactory near second supply then ECA can use second dozer which will be in your main base and will start to build GuardT there and then Gun Turrets. If you build baracks on your main base and warfactory near second supply stash. THen ECA can just build barracks and bunker and garrison it with panzerfausts. I played vs ECA many times and dozer rush on certain maps is uncounterable.

Ok XAOC.
And nice to see you again

[Neo]

Guys you have to keep in mind that the dozer rush strat is EXTREMELY RISKY just as much as a proxy warfactory rush. It's a "go big or go home" that does require precise timing to execute properly, and if it works well its strong. Am surprised you're having issues with ECA's dozer rush and not GLA's dushka rushes, as they can preform those kind of rushes 10x better due to also having mobile units in the mix, and cheaper workers, meaning that they can cover both of your supplies via diversion. And GLA's Defense rush is not risky, you don't loose that much momentum in the game if it fails. ECA on the other hand ( the faction that is meant to be superior in this type of rushes) is pretty much gone from the game if dozer/GT were killed by early RPGs/Tanks.

On Dust Devil , the supply distances are not equal. Bottom player will always get his dozers 1 minute earlier than top player to the bottom right supplies, set up a barracks and get some RPGs out to stop the dozer rush. It doesn't work UNLESS you delay your dozer movement towards secondary supplies. Unless you give me a replay that proves me otherwise, I sincerely can't buy the talk. It doesn't make sense, unless its a map flaw.

And please don't play on maps where both secondary supplies are at same position in the middle of the map, as yeah ECA can go risky and take both, then again they would leave their base heavily exposed for an early bruteforce GG.

I saw dushka rush too.
I always kill the worker on that one.

[P9K329]

bad Neo

:DDD
:DDDDDDDDDDDDD
I guess it's Aziz's ECA style

[Neo]

bad Neo

:DDD
:DDDDDDDDDDDDD
I guess it's Aziz's ECA style

User-msi

[XAOC-RU-]

Guys you have to keep in mind that the dozer rush strat is EXTREMELY RISKY just as much as a proxy warfactory rush. It's a "go big or go home" that does require precise timing to execute properly, and if it works well its strong. Am surprised you're having issues with ECA's dozer rush and not GLA's dushka rushes, as they can preform those kind of rushes 10x better due to also having mobile units in the mix, and cheaper workers, meaning that they can cover both of your supplies via diversion. And GLA's Defense rush is not risky, you don't loose that much momentum in the game if it fails. ECA on the other hand ( the faction that is meant to be superior in this type of rushes) is pretty much gone from the game if dozer/GT were killed by early RPGs/Tanks.

On Dust Devil , the supply distances are not equal. Bottom player will always get his dozers 1 minute earlier than top player to the bottom right supplies, set up a barracks and get some RPGs out to stop the dozer rush. It doesn't work UNLESS you delay your dozer movement towards secondary supplies. Unless you give me a replay that proves me otherwise, I sincerely can't buy the talk. It doesn't make sense, unless its a map flaw.

And please don't play on maps where both secondary supplies are at same position in the middle of the map, as yeah ECA can go risky and take both, then again they would leave their base heavily exposed for an early bruteforce GG.

I dont have exactly replay of the game on Dust Devil or maybe have. Dont remember exactly must check. But I played many times on this map and ECA dozer will reach your secondary supply few seconds later maybe ( in case when you will order your 1st dozer to move there). But you will not be able to build enough infantry to kill its dozer before it finish its Guard tower. I made it only once when was playing vs Luna and only because she start to build tower behind dozer but not between dozer and incoming russian infantry. Anyway when i killed dozer tower was ready and my secondary supply and oil capture was greatly delayed (. About Dushkas. You can kill worker. Just drive on him bypass not finished dushka. Dushkas gunner can be killed by few cinscripts. BMP will finish work. Yeah GLA risks are much lower due to fact that worker cist only200 and their techs are extremely fast. GLA have other imbalace moment vs Russia. It's early terror rush on warfactory with continue snowball effect by tank and quads overspam.

About Fallen forest map. ECA can go to middle of the map and delay second supply for one of the player. Yes your main base will be without towers but Cheetah can do work very well. Russia for example will be need at least 2 tunguskas to kill it and anyway 1 tung will be lost. I'm talking anout pure 2tungs vs 1cheetah. But normal ECA will build on main base too after middle supply is captured. Before that moment even if 2 tungs will rush your base they wont do much under cheetas fire

This post has been edited by XAOC-RU-: 30 Jul 2016, 10:39

[Mizo]

Will test Dust Devil out, this shouldn't happen , might be a map issue. On Fallen Forest, it's 100% intended since it's a map that relies on early game rushes and ground control, and that's one of ECA's powers.

Edit : just Tested Dust Devil out, you get 10 seconds ahead of time to get a barracks if first dozers were racing to secondary supplies. FC build gives you another 10 seconds more than a warfactory, which means that they cannot get a gaurd tower out until after 20 seconds you have built your warfactory atleast ( unless you derp) In those 20 seconds you can get a BMP out or a Kodiak , and can probably bruteforce it down with a mix of infantry with you as well.

If ECA attempts this rush , what you could also do is send the second dozer to HIS supplies, ECA players won't have the sufficent APM to defend 2 fronts at once. First dozer at your secodnary supplies can deny dozer via RPGs, and second dozer gets a forward WF out for a fast BMP to snipe that other dozer, or get a WF in your base and rush a BMP to secondary supplies, msot likely they won't have enough cash and time to get proper AT defenses out in time.

If Gaurd tower did go up, it's not the end of the world, for Russia/China/GLA, you can bruteforce it with armor , but you have to do it as fast as possible before any proper defense establishments start, otherwise you'd be in trouble.

Will check timings on lagoon and see if it's broken or not. Either ways this strat isn't OP, just a powerful one, can be stopped though ( well atleast from the attempts all of us made against each other during test games , some attempts worked, others didn't) specifically for General Wilem ( Defense General) , and current ECA being a castrated Willem with no Wolfgang stuff whatsoever, and very little Charles content.

Edit : Checked timings on Lagoon , Your Second dozer would reach your secondary supplies at 30 seconds total ( including Build time) while for ECA to reach your secondary or primary supplies would need 50 seconds. 20 seconds excluding the 10 seconds delay on FC which can be overlapped during the travel time. If ECA spawns on the top position however , they can get to you around 3-4 seconds ealier , but 16-17 seconds difference is still substatial.

Verdict: Know what type of ECA player you are going against, if he dozer rushes you, you gotta expect it. Early barracks at secondary supplies with fast rifleman to counter dog rush and AT infantry asap to snipe the dozer ( reason why dozer has alot less resistance against Infantry_Missile is because of this ), while a warfactory built next to your primary supplies asap as soon as your supply center is up. They will never be able to build a gaurd tower in time due to the 10 seconds delay on Field Command compared to your warfactory.

Case is different if they went WF openning, would give them 10 seconds extra time at the cost of cash burn only for a fast guard tower rush , making further map control very hard, so take this to your advantage ( fact that they are on 2 dozers only means that their secondary supplies is also delayed, if they go third dozer with WF openning they will have very delayed tier 1 due to no cash).

This post has been edited by Mizo: 30 Jul 2016, 14:30

[Mizo]

Checking Dell's replay now :

3rd Minute :

Something very minor but probably costed you the game ( 1v1s are like that, a small thing that leads to another thing that keeps on escelating)
Kodiaks wasted a shot on the gun turrnet scaffhold instead of the dozer, if that kodiak was brought up earlier, ( before tungaska , and went for the expansion earlier, it would've sniped the dozer, heck if it was micro'd better it would've sniped the dozer, giving you the position for sure 100%.

4th Minute :

You couldn't take the ground , but why not abuse Russia's combined arms?Early Infantry + tanks + smokes? Can break ECA's defense line at that time, but you're barely spamming any conscripts. ECA is not very strong against infantry spam with tank combat , atleast not early game. At this point on it's already GG, he is collecting on 4 supplies, got both of the oils ( even when he started collecting his second dock abit later than you), that's a 12k difference in cash.

15th minute: during your large assualt, if you had a second grumble against this tiger spam they would've all been swatted. Your Msta control for the most part was on point, Boris micro was good, could've kept him alive for dozer snipes if he attempts to build more forward defenses.

16th : You saw how much mortar pits and howetzer spam he was getting, why not just move in with sentinel spam covered with grumbles then? He barely had any gun turrents. Mishka scout would've helped. At this point you should've swaped to the other front, since this guy was burning all of his cash to secure the left side.
Holy crap, where is the secondary eco ? Yeah thats what the early 12k difference from that first Kodiak assault resulted in. You had 9 arms dealers he had 10 telecom towers alongside all of the howetzer spam and mortar pits plus an oil. See if that kodiak was properly micro'd and killed that dozer before it got the gun turrent up would've done different? It's things that leads up to another that keeps leading up to another disadvantage as the game goes on.

19TH : Bad FOAB, use it when you're about to attack Why didn't you push ? Why didn't you do any of that? what did this FOAB acheive exactly? absolutely nothing. He still had front defense he still had economy VERY close to yours, he still had a good howetzer network. If smarter GP use was applied, you would've won. FOAB wipe on the middle to get rid of all the mortar pits then move in, OR switch to the right side.

Onwards to 22th : You kept loosing your units from howetzers, that were doing nothing but being stationed on the left, the most defended point. No gunships from you.....while he barely had any decent Anti-air. yeah Tigers are good, but can be denied by long range Grumbles, so it wouldn't be a problem.
I don't know what happend next as the game crashed, but am pretty sure the loss was all because of those early mistakes that lead to each other.
Am pretty sure by the time Pandora ECA came, he had alot of economy close to yours ( at this point RU should have 2.5x ).

Next time have a plan ahead of time, you didn't apply any early presence whatsoever, and let him have a 12k early advantage over you by the 4th minute mark. That alone is a GG, with any other faction the game would've ended sooner. Better unit management during those key essential early game assaults, more infantry spam agaisnt ECA. It's really good. Finally better use of GPs, in conjunction with your army.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 30 Jul 2016, 18:53

[Neo]

Checking Dell's replay now :

3rd Minute :

Something very minor but probably costed you the game ( 1v1s are like that, a small thing that leads to another thing that keeps on escelating)
Kodiaks wasted a shot on the gun turrnet scaffhold instead of the dozer, if that kodiak was brought up earlier, ( before tungaska , and went for the expansion earlier, it would've sniped the dozer, heck if it was micro'd better it would've sniped the dozer, giving you the position for sure 100%.

4th Minute :

You couldn't take the ground , but why not abuse Russia's combined arms?Early Infantry + tanks + smokes? Can break ECA's defense line at that time, but you're barely spamming any conscripts. ECA is not very strong against infantry spam with tank combat , atleast not early game. At this point on it's already GG, he is collecting on 4 supplies, got both of the oils ( even when he started collecting his second dock abit later than you), that's a 12k

15th minute: during your large assualt, if you had a second grumble against this tiger spam they would've all been swatted. Your Msta control for the most part was on point, Boris micro was good, could've kept him alive for dozer snipes if he attempts to build more forward defenses.

16th : You saw how much mortar pits and howetzer spam he was getting, why not just move in with sentinel spam covered with grumbles then? He barely had any gun turrents. Mishka scout would've helped. At this point you should've swaped to the other front, since this guy was burning all of his cash to secure the left side.
Holy crap, where is the secondary eco ? Yeah thats what the early 12k difference resulted in. You had 9 arms dealers he had 10 telecom towers alongside all of the howetzer spam and mortar pits plus an oil. See if that kodiak was properly micro'd and killed that dozer before it got the gun turrent up would've done different? It's things that leads up to another that keeps leading up to another disadvantage as the game goes on.

19TH : Bad FOAB, use it when you're about to attack Why didn't you push ? Why didn't you do any of that? what did this FOAB acheive exactly? absolutely nothing. He still had front defense he still had economy VERY close to yours, he still had a good howetzer network. If smarter GP use was applied, you would've won. FOAB wipe on the middle to get rid of all the mortar pits then move in, OR switch to the right side.

Onwards to 22th : You kept loosing your units from howetzers, that were doing nothing but being stationed on the left, the most defended point. No gunships from you.....while he barely had any decent Anti-air. yeah Tigers are good, but can be denied by long range Grumbles, so it wouldn't be a problem.
I don't know what happend next as the game crashed, but am pretty sure the loss was all because of those early mistakes that lead to each other.
Am pretty sure by the time Pandora ECA came, he had alot of economy close to yours ( at this point RU should have 2.5x ).

Next time have a plan ahead of time, you didn't apply any early presence whatsoever, and let him have a 12k early advantage over you by the 4th minute mark. That alone is a GG, with any other faction the game would've ended sooner. Better unit management during those key essential early game assaults, more infantry spam agaisnt ECA. It's really good. Finally better use of GPs, in conjunction with your army.

I agree with you Mizo.
And as you said about 4th minute...
Dell why don't you use infantry ?
Infantry units are great once you use it as cover for your tanks.
And also not only conscripts...
RPG conscripts and igla troopers.
Use those too.

[Mizo]

Neo : 9 conscripts for 450. Vs ECA early game you gotta play the number game rather than the quality , since they won't have that much defenses up in time, and the more targets you give them the harder they can stop your assault.

[Neo]

Neo : 9 conscripts for 450. Vs ECA early game you gotta play the number game rather than the quality , since they won't have that much defenses up in time, and the more targets you give them the harder they can stop your assault.

Sometimes some RPGs or some iglas turn the tide of the battle.
For example...
You have NO tunguskas.
And enemy is using tigers to destroy your force...
But you have iglas...
Use iglas to destroy tigers...
Then contiune to destroy ECA with no problems...
Some other infantry can turn the tide of the battle like this.

This post has been edited by Neo: 30 Jul 2016, 19:02

[HeDD]

Kodiak was controled properly, even in ZH first shoot of the unit may go on another target if you select attack another.

I use gunships in the end of game, because i dont want get to him GPs early.

About ealy infantry + tanks maybe you are right, but he already has mines and tiger. I was thnking that push will be very risky(what will happend if he had a lot of tigers on another flang, or battlegroup?), and decided to go in late.

I dont see in game that he dont have too much 2 eco. So i dont know that if i break first line of defence, he cant build another.

Game wasn't crash, he left it.

Just one bugged kodiak cost the game? Its normal?

[Mizo]

That's how 1v1s are, one thing that leads to another that leads to another and it keeps going on. If you trace everything that happend, it was because you didnt have an oil nor supplies while he got ground on the right. If that Kodiak came earlier to snipe that dozer ( buidling it before a tungaska and attacking it with that MTP and Buratino things would've been easier. )

Also you could've easily won the game by scouting better, you applied so much pressure on the left, and forced him to burn so much cash into getting defenses up there. If you have just switched to the right, and used first FOAB on what little defense he has / was preparing, it would've been GG. Vs ECA that bunkers fast like this, it's always good to switch from one side to the other ASAP.Am talking about the moment you killed of his left expansion , and he started bunkering in with mortar pits ( around the 15th to 20th minute).

He played Solid ECA ( Howetzers and Mortar pit pressure), I gotta say that, but it's a very risky one. If he had lost one of those expansions early on he would be in a terrible disadvantage due to cash burn.I kinda would like to play against him to see how long can he survive, or whether he'd bunker me out completely.

As for infantry , yeah they're a pain the ass for ECA. The more targets you give to ECA defenses early game, the better because the number of defenses that would be built would be limited, so you can really use distractions to your advantage. During Tests, Skit who's one of the best ECA players, have huge trouble fending off my infantry + tank combos when am playing Russia. It's not easy, especially if shocktroops were involved.

Also when attacking a defense line, have a strategy. ECA defenses are specialized, they can only cover a type of unit at once, MG tower being for infantry, GT for tanks, Skysheild for air. When attacking with combined arms like this, kill MG towers then back off your tanks ( assuming you sniped the dozers) and have your infantry snipe the GTs. It can also be vise versa , have your tanks come in first, acting as meat shield, focus everything on GTs, then back off your infantry to prevent further losses, and use tanks vs MG towers.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 31 Jul 2016, 10:36

[Mizo]

Sometimes some RPGs or some iglas turn the tide of the battle.
For example...
You have NO tunguskas.
And enemy is using tigers to destroy your force...
But you have iglas...
Use iglas to destroy tigers...
Then contiune to destroy ECA with no problems...
Some other infantry can turn the tide of the battle like this.

Am not saying only using conscripts, but conscripts should always be spammed. Nine of them cost 450 for godsake!

This post has been edited by Mizo: 31 Jul 2016, 10:42

[Neo]

Am not saying only using conscripts, but conscripts should always be spammed. Nine of them cost 450 for godsake!

Ok now i get it .

[chemisthypnos]

I agree. Do a cost analysis of the units on your faction. You might find that certain combinations are more useful and cost effective than others.

[Neo]

I agree. Do a cost analysis of the units on your faction. You might find that certain combinations are more useful and cost effective than others.

Yep...
Combinations of different units are better than one type unit spamming...