Military talks, 2010 + Options

[__CrUsHeR]

Changing a little the focus of discussion: below you will see a compilation of almost an hour where T-72 tanks of the Syrian army go into action against the rebels - the tanks are really fascinating vehicles.

Syria T-72 mission with GoPro

NOTE: are "only" T-72 tanks, imagine if they were T-90...

[Karpet]

Not even a missile, just one explosive arrow.

It'd honestly be much easier to make an airship aircraft carrier (like a Kirov but with aircraft), I think.

[Darky]

Zeppelins are quite cost efficient for large sizes, yes. Parasite aircraft is not a new concept, it's just not necessary or a good idea. Easier to protect a supercarrier and it is more cost efficient with how many planes it can serve at the same time.

However, I'd say that lighter landing crafts that can perform a variety of missions using modular loadouts is what we'll get in the future, like the so called LCS.

[Massey]

http://www.cato.org/multimedia/events/did-...n-libya-succeed

Very interesting...
my point of view: not so much.

[The General]

http://www.cato.org/multimedia/events/did-...n-libya-succeed

Very interesting...
my point of view: not so much.

I think that it did, because the goal was to get the anti-western guy away no matter the cost.
NATO in general isn't famous for thorough analysis and overthinking, on the contrary.

[Svea Rike]

Personally, I'd still like to see a small submersible carrier that uses drones in the unspecified future. Beyond that, I can definitely see something like the old battleships in spirit (i.e. armed with long range cannons), but in a smaller, less stationary package and armed with railguns, which would have extreme range and fire ballistic shells that are practically impossible to spoof or intercept. Incidentally, railgun-type projectiles wouldn't even require any sort of explosive payload since their kinetic energy is powerful enough, which allows for much smaller, easy to store and inert ammunition; you can carry more of it and it can't blow up inside your own vessel.

(Slowpoke) I would like to see a naval combat simulator that depicts future naval wars that way, with fully customizeable ships and everything.

[FloppySovereign]

Off topic; no one can match the Armour Superiority of the Germans, just had to put that out there.....

[Serialkillerwhal...]

CoughWWIICough.

Way to build a tank that's too heavy for bridges and broke down from driving forwards.

[MARS]

The last decent tanks that the Germans introduced during WW2 were the Panther and the Tiger - and even they had some serious problems. Anything that came out after those had exponentially bigger problems that were out of proportion to the increase in combat power.

Although playing that new CoH2 expansion at the moment, it kinda makes me wonder what modern tanks would be like if all those distinctions that were rendered obsolete by the MBT still existed. Imagine a Jagdleopard, Sturmleopard or Königsleopard^^

[Serialkillerwhal...]

Heck, the P-1000 and P-1500 might be plausible nowadays (As in they can move and shoot, actually using the damn things is bonafide retardation and asking for a bombing).

[Pepo]

Also even if your tanks are better, it doesn't matter if your enemy outnumber you by a big difference. The panther tank, after they fix the problems in kursk was a superb tank and not as expensive as the tiger , however it couldn't defeat the allies because it was completly outnumber by allied tanks among other things. Also if the crew training sucks , the tank become less usefull. The Jadtiger , which btw was a complete overkill, fare really bad because the crews didn't knew how to use it properly. Personally i think that the "german armor superiority" in the ww2 end up diverting a lot of resources in unnecesary tanks( tiger 2 , maus) instead of focusing the already badly damage industry in just building one tank in greater quantities

[MARS]

WW2 tank combat was the classic quality vs. quantity conflict. German tanks weren't actually all that superior during the early years of the war, but the difficulties they faced against the T-34 and the KV series prompted them to develop bigger, more powerful tanks to counter them, thus producing among other things the Panther, the Tiger and the Elefant. Those might have been able to defeat larger numbers of allied tanks due to superior quality and crew, but in the end, the kill ratios couldn't match the rate at which America and the USSR could churn out their Shermans and T-34s respectively, not to mention that Germany no longer had any ability to strike at the industrial basis that made this extreme war production a possibility, all while its own industrial base got smashed by extensive bombing campaigns. In the end, the war in Europe was decided by superior resources, production and logistics. On its own, the entry of the US or the point where the Soviets took the initiative would have made an Axis victory highly improbable; combined, the two made it flat-out impossible.

[Die Hindenburg]

Its always so:

IF you have good things and much more of them as your enemy and keep it longer going and use them more efficiently, you defeat any enemy who is only superior either in numbers or quality.
The Tanks and other things were always upgraded with newer upgrades like in a RTS
What use is an shitty Tiger if the soviet or allied tank gets an cannon that punches through it? Later shermans and T34 were finally superior in any way to the tiger, the germans should have produced much more lovely Panther and Fockewulf "butcher" instead of the piece of shit Tiger and experimental rocket planes.

Dont mention the japs and itakas, their equipment was downright useless, the only axis nations beside germany with some usefull things were Hungary (first practical flak-tank) and... who?

[Pepo]

considering that germany in 1939 have double the industry than the ussr, it makes you wonder why they start preparing it for war so late . and when the bombing campain was cripling their industry, they were creaying over complicated tanks that overkill any allied tanks except other heavy tanks, that appear to counter german ones. the more effective german tank, the panther, wasn't numerous enougth to turn the tide althougth it was much cost effective than the panzer 4. should the germans focused only on the panther and is variants , and convert their economy much earlier, the war would have last longer

[Thelord444]

First Chinese hypersonic missile successfully tested

Wu-14, can carry nuclear and speed of mach 10 and stuff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WU-14

Thoughts?

This post has been edited by Thelord444: 21 Aug 2014, 15:14

[Kalga]

Bet that the West (mostly the US) media will spin this as a provocative act of aggression by the evil PRC.

Just look at the previous examples in recent history...

India has 2 aircraft carriers (2 in service, 2 more under constructing): India can now better resist against foreign aggression, PRC has one (1 experimenting, maybe a few planned... in a decade or so): OMG them commies are threatening peace in East Asia!

America has 18+ B2s & 185+ F-22s & yet undetermined # of F-35s: the world is safer for peace & freedom, PRC has a few J-20s and J-31 in the testing stage and suddenly world peace is in danger!

Also that reminds me of that one article on Time magazine about 6 or 7 years back about the threat of the PLA... in which they used photos of PLAAF J-7 (i.e. MiG-21) fighters to show how "threatening" the PRC's military is.

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Sorry for the vent, just that I'm bombard with this kind of stuff every time I see the news these years...

This post has been edited by Kalga: 21 Aug 2014, 20:11

[Thelord444]

Bet that the West (mostly the US) media will spin this as a provocative act of aggression by the evil PRC.

Just look at the previous examples in recent history...

India has 2 aircraft carriers (2 in service, 2 more under constructing): India can now better resist against foreign aggression, PRC has one (1 experimenting, maybe a few planned... in a decade or so): OMG them commies are threatening peace in East Asia!

America has 18+ B2s & 185+ F-22s & yet undetermined # of F-35s: the world is safer for peace & freedom, PRC has a few J-20s and J-31 in the testing stage and suddenly world peace is in danger!

Also that reminds me of that one article on Time magazine about 6 or 7 years back about the threat of the PLA... in which they used photos of PLAAF J-7 (i.e. MiG-21) fighters to show how "threatening" the PRC's military is.

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Sorry for the vent, just that I'm bombard with this kind of stuff every time I see the news these years...

Agreed 100%.

[Serialkillerwhal...]

It IS a provocation.

There's no way to spin it as anything else, but chest-thumping and another overt threat to Japan, Taiwan, and every other nation in the South China Sea.

[Thelord444]

It IS a provocation.

There's no way to spin it as anything else, but chest-thumping and another overt threat to Japan, Taiwan, and every other nation in the South China Sea.

I don't see why that is true, they created a weapon, just like every other country.

[Serialkillerwhal...]

Other countries don't claim an entire sea, including territorial waters of their neighbors, as their territory.

[Kalga]

Any nation that has the capability (i.e. military power backed by industrial might) to expand their own interests will do* so. The concept of "right" or "wrong" only applies when they are at the mercy of others or that there is an absolute superiorentity .

It is not in the interest of China (or Russia, for that matter) to place their national interest at the tender mercies** of the West.

I'm not saying China is "right" (given that the concept is here is extremely relative), I'm not saying that there is no reason for China to be the West's lapdog. I was simply pointed about the West's tendency to feel that they are entitled to a perpetual technological supremacy, and overreacted when nations outside their spheres of influence does anything notable.

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*A tradition dating back to the dawn of humanity, of course, most of the time historians retroactively make it look like it was right that make might rather than vice versa.

**Just look at Russia during the 90s, unable to help their Slavic breathes in the Balkans... though of course the situation was much more complicated than that, and it wasn't like the Russian chose to put themselves at the mercy of the West...

This post has been edited by Kalga: 22 Aug 2014, 12:13

[Pepo]

It IS a provocation.

There's no way to spin it as anything else, but chest-thumping and another overt threat to Japan, Taiwan, and every other nation in the South China Sea.

is not a provocation, is deterrance. the US have similar technology that would give then an edge over china in case of conflict, so china need to deploy their own version. in fact , it can be seen as a provocation by US, has they were the first to develop this technology

[__CrUsHeR]

China is showing clearly to the United States and its allies its expansionist policy; one refit and modernization of the armed forces is part of the game already that China is today the largest consumer market in the world and the second largest economy; was expected that China would go on a maritime dispute with its neighbors in search of resources to boost its growing economy. All this explains why the displeasure of Washington with regards to Beijing: a dispute over the global hegemony already that today only China has technological autonomy, an expansionist policy and capital to counter North American interests (expansionism and colonialism) on a global scale.

Is this correct? Is this fair? In fact are questions that have subjective responses; however were the Americans and Europeans who financed China over the years, investing in large conglomerates and working for the Chinese market opened up to capitalism practiced in the West, so why now are pressing China to cease the their advance? That's is not why defending western capitalism: conquer, dominate and exploit? So what's the problem in that? China has been growing and expanding its global influence far more responsible than the USA way, then the Chinese capitalist system works better than the American system, the financial crisis was proof of that - China saved the world from total collapse - then I think the West is only trying to blame the wrong side; why not criticize your own system? Their own self-degradable consumer society? China tried to play his own game for centuries, but when he realized that if he played the game of the West was the winner, so do not think twice... since then China has not lost any more war against the West.

"Know thy enemy and know-thyself; if you have a hundred battles waging a hundred times you will be victorious. If you ignore your enemy and know yourself, your chances of winning and losing are identical. If ignorant of both your enemy and yourself, only shalt thy fighting for your losses." - Sun Tzu; the West must learn to Eastern philosophy.

This post has been edited by __CrUsHeR: 22 Aug 2014, 13:57

[Anubis]

Oh my China has a new toy that can rival with something murica has. Beware world - soon China will be declared a terrorist nation.
Serialkillerwhale ... seriously - if your pro-murican bullshit was any bigger you would grow a murican flag out of your ass. Murica doesn't claim a territory? Really - have you ever read anything in your life except fox news information? You don't have to put your frekin flag in a country to claim it. The simple fact that you send your economical weapons - aka IMF, WB, Trilateral Commission and every other so called international institution that pretty much puts murican corporation interest over the life of any other human being on the planet means they claim a country. Do you think Panama just all of a sudden decided that they wanna give that canal to USA. Do you think most of South America sudently decided that their population should starve just so the average american can throw tons of food imported from their countries? Do you think half this world does w/e murica commands out of their deepest and most sincere respect for the so called murican democracy?
Just because they call it - bringing freedom and democracy when invading a country that's not even a neighbor, or economically bankrupt another country with the help of a corrupt legal system and corporations (Argentina's case being the latest) doesn't mean that literally.
Get this through your murican indoctrinated thick head already - muricah has no superior moral ground to any other country/nation and i would also say culture if murica even had such a thing. In their 300 years of history they have known only 2 things - wars and murder. They occupy a land that was not theirs, they invade any country they want - be it military or economically and they try everything in their power to stop the rest of the world from getting close to their power so they can still be the so called no1 nation. They are just as power hungry, corrupt and full of shit as russians, chinese, and any other global or regional super power. They just made sure a huge percent of the world media is on their side, so that weak minded ignorant people can be easily set on their side.

This post has been edited by Anubis: 22 Aug 2014, 14:15

[Kalga]

... ah shucks, I derailed the conversation. My apologies (for the derailing, not for my cynical nationalism).

Maybe we should move on to something else, I'm currently making battleships on Gmax and I was wondering what are everyone's thoughts on the "Queen Anne's Mansions" design of superstructure in British 3rd generation dreadnoughts (as well as their refitted Queen Elizabeths and the Renown class battlecruisers).