B - Balance 87 Options

[HeDD]

Hello everyone my name is Hecthor Doomhammer Dell, hard sniff, and today i will tell how you need to counter fast agression from GLA in 1v1 PvP.

What we need?

We need GLA in good hands and with good knowledge of the meta of the game(Burrito Bruce, its not about you)))
Barraks for 750$
free capture upgrade
Good map, where 2 base supplies located far from each other, where oils and supplies in the middle of the map are far away from base too.
For example... well... idk maybe

Tournament Desert
Lagoon
Natural Threats
Forgotten Forest
Homeland Rocks
Raining Blood
Rocky Shores
The Path...
And other 99% of the publick maps

Lets start

As russia we start build Barraks - powerplant - 2 supplies
Build 5 conscripts(send them to oils, to middle), 2 trucks and we have 0 cash. No float, its good.
If your GLA opponent isnt Black Hole or Burrito, he will send 2 techs on your supplies, 1 supply you can defend with BMP(YES, IT IS BMP!!!) or tunguska, but another - not . And 2 good news! 1) in every tech was worker 2) 5 your conscripts are dead. No cap oils, middle of the map - BB.
Worker on your undefended supply start to build dushksa or tunnel or even tunnel with dushka, because why not. BMP from another supply will drive very long time, your barraks will be blocked with tech it they are on undefendet supply or just destroyed, or you dont have time and cash to build another one and send infantry to protect base.
What we will do?
Surrender? - NO!!
Build BMPs to defend another supply? NO - You dont have time to do this.
Build Kashtan? - Go away, Drebel!

And there i want to tell you finall solution! From undefended corner of the base you need evacuate dozer and trucks, and put them to the your CC.
And it is GG for GLA. I dont know, i think its bug, but trucks arent mining in CC. And we even dont see plate "YOU ARE VICTORIUS!1!!!" after it. Hunter, fix it pls.

Anyway, your opponent will have at this stage all middle of the map, oils, 3-4 supplies, T1-T2 tech, he will start build army of quads and scorps + buggies...
And we have 2 trucks and dozer in Command Center.

And if want to be serius, Russia dont have chances vs GLA or another fast faction in 1v1. Now with 750 barraks, and free cap, its impossible to defend both base supplies and got something in the middle as slow faction. It was hard in 86, in 87 its impossible, GLA now dont need 1000$ and time for oil cap upgrade, and russia dont have money and time to build 2 barracks to defend even itself.

I dont know what is the situation with USA, ECA and China, but i clearly see that in 1v1 PvP Russia vs GLA balance is even worser than in 86

To all dev team, testers, members and other google bots. I personally, and most of the members want to see good balanced game in PvP. We all like ROTR, its great game with very big potencial in future. We all are very happy when see new toys, like blackbear and imba golems with coil guns(but this is another story), you can put in game GLA transformer that will be available when you have all 5 techs of all factions and build it from recyclers... But games becomes immortal only in online. Starcraft 1, CS 1.6, warcraft 3 are still alive, Starcraft 2 will live even longer. And Red Alert 3 with sh*t balance? And Red alert 3 Uprising without multiplayer at all? Where they are? They are death. I dont want to see dead Rotr after 2 years of realise. Now i see only new toys, new guns, new lights and heavenly music. But the main thing is in the same condition.

Dev team, testers, please, do with balance something. If you dont care about balance, then i think you can realise 87 right now.

This post has been edited by Dell: 10 Dec 2016, 10:40

[(USA)Bruce]

B? RASJ B CYKA! XD
----------
Okay I'll be serious now,

I read and understand your passion for wanting to keep the game balenced.
Are you making a radar at T0? Or buying scouts? In my book thoose are a waste of money, also your second dozer where ever it may be use it to go forward and deny any workers or block technicals.Every second counts,

Five conscript to an oil is too much, Unless he sends a second rebel 2 is good enough 3 is a garentee capture
Be sure to capture 2 garrisons on each map (Like middle in TD)

Send a tunguska to your second supplies, your main supply will be defended by infantry.Consider an early group of 6 conscripts as fast as you can there.Then throw in 4 rpgs and your good to go.

vs gla I dont suggest you go warfactory heavy to begin with, Unless you see a nearby tunnel one kodiak near your main supply and a tunguska on your second is enough for you to get to T1.

Rest is just burantino spam with rpgs...GLA gets hardcounterd till it goes buggies.After that just switch to mishkas and get T2 and win

[X1Destroy]

Was about to agree with some of the points there, then I see this........

But games becomes immortal only in online. Starcraft 1, CS 1.6, warcraft 3 are still alive, Starcraft 2 will live even longer. And Red Alert 3 with sh*t balance? And Red alert 3 Uprising without multiplayer at all? Where they are? They are death.

Nope.

[Knjaz.]

Well, normally I'd go on bashing the guy who wrote smth like this on forum, but it so closely matches my and several other tester's (Marakar, XAttus) opinion on the current state of balance and observation of in-game results we had in last months, that I can't find myself arguing with this at all.

I can only forward you what we've been told before, if it'll ease your pain in any way.
"You couldn't possibly had time to properly test it yet".

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 Dec 2016, 10:48

[ZunZero97]

Why you dont build Kodiak tank to face Technicals??(They are slow, but are the top tank T0 of the game and can face any tank).
Maybe you did not put enough effort to win that game without that GLITCH you talking about.

And as Bruce said: SCOUT!!!

This post has been edited by ZunZero97: 10 Dec 2016, 10:45

[(USA)Bruce]

No I did not say scout, I said no scout and no radars ZunZero :/

And I dont find any major issues with the current build

[Knjaz.]

And imho, belongs to 187 subforum too.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 Dec 2016, 10:50

[HeDD]

"In my book thoose are a waste of money."

Bruce, sorry, burrito, with all my respect, you can go in another topic)) But anyway.

"Five conscript to an oil is too much" To control middle, i dont want give the middle of the map at free. 5 is optimal in this version.

"Be sure to capture 2 garrisons on each map" Molotov? No? Try it, good thing.

"vs gla I dont suggest you go warfactory heavy to begin with, Unless you see a nearby tunnel one kodiak near your main supply and a tunguska on your second is enough for you to get to T1." lol 1hjacker and no problem with kodiak, even if you have money and time to build both tunguska and kodiak, you will loos supply anyway and after this where i will get weapon bunker? and if GLA is going for marodours or something like that? Scout? in your book it is waste of money.


Was about to agree with some of the points there, then I see this........

QUOTE
But games becomes immortal only in online. Starcraft 1, CS 1.6, warcraft 3 are still alive, Starcraft 2 will live even longer. And Red Alert 3 with sh*t balance? And Red alert 3 Uprising without multiplayer at all? Where they are? They are death.

Nope.

Yes

"Why you dont build Kodiak tank to face Technicals??"

I want to see it in your hands. Give me replay where you counter techs with kodiak. In PvP of course.

This post has been edited by Dell: 10 Dec 2016, 10:54

[Damfoos]

RA3 is played actually. C&C Generation 2 (TS, RA2) are played too, though I'm not sure if the balance is good there. Obviously those aren't as popular as Korean national sport Starcrafts, but they aren't "dead" either.

This post has been edited by Damfoos: 10 Dec 2016, 10:58

[(USA)Bruce]

Your second dozers pretty much useless after you get yourself set up,

Kodiaks there to ensure when your pushed that you dont loose ground.He will come to you, I could easily prove this to you In a game if you do not belive my words dell.

Burrito? Thats a temporary nickname call me archer

This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 10 Dec 2016, 10:58

[HeDD]

"Your second dozers pretty much useless after you get yourself set up,"

And? I dont need 2 dozer at start? Bruce give me your "book" i want to read good fairy tale.

"Kodiaks there to ensure when your pushed"

Tell me, who will push as GLA vs kodiak in the begin of the game? when you have another supply without barraks and with 1 tunguska. It is so hard to understand?

"Obviously those aren't as popular as Korean national sport Starcrafts" And why in korea national sport is starcraft, not the red alert 3? why it is still popular?


This post has been edited by Dell: 10 Dec 2016, 11:04

[(USA)Bruce]

Your clearly not getting what Im trying to say,

Your on the defence early game...And your ment to have a two dozer start, but after your set up you dont need your second dozer so go use it.Delay the foe,

[HeDD]

"Your on the defence early game"

Yes, im on defence! But i cant defence both my supplies, i cant go in the middle of the map, i have NO CHANCES with that version.

And dozer as scout in the middle of the game vs GLA, bruce, i WANT your book.

This post has been edited by Dell: 10 Dec 2016, 11:09

[Knjaz.]

If you're building Kodiaks for secondary supply defense, you're giving up oils - which GLA doesn;t need 1000$ upgrade to capture anymore while you're busy protecting your stuff - and delays tier 1 as well.

Or you're just delaying yourself massively, plus Kodiak requires conscript support of Tungs. If you want to go to such extremes to protect Secondary, you're much better with slapping a Kashtan on it instead.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 Dec 2016, 11:09

[(USA)Bruce]

Sure buddy, join my games and observe to learn...
Also TD cant really be used on any arguement for ROTR, Its ment for zh scale not ROTR.Aside from that All of the other maps are easy to win as russia

[Knjaz.]

Sure buddy, join my games and observe to learn...
Also TD cant really be used on any arguement for ROTR, Its ment for zh scale not ROTR.Aside from that All of the other maps are easy to win as russia

He'd need to learn GLA then, because yours is extremely unorthodox in early game, and only has chances (until people find a solid counter to that, theoretically I see a few already) in your hands, maybe in Rik's since you share that special playstyle. Saw that yesterday.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 Dec 2016, 11:11

[X1Destroy]

People are expecting too much from the testers team, which barely got much time to actually test everything that was, is and will be added. The current state is actually decent enough to get a release, but it still have bugs left and right.

ZH was anything but a perfect balanced competitive game, yet people still play it. Rather than ROTR, the entire C&C community should have been dead if competitive MP was all there is to it.

Esport games lives long because of MP, sure. But does it even matter? No way this mod will ever get the amount of supports we can expect to have compared to those games. I don't think we should hope for the impossible and appreciate what we already got.

And why in korea national sport is starcraft, not the red alert 3? why it is still popular?

How long was RA3 MP supported? Oh waited, it just got axed not too long ago. It was much better than the old C&C games in terms of balance, a pity.

And SC was there, played by them long before RA 3 existed. Ever.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 10 Dec 2016, 11:13

[HeDD]

"How long was RA3 MP supported? Oh waited, it just got axed not too long ago. It was much better than the old C&C games in terms of balance, a pity.

And SC was there, played by them long before RA 3 existed. Ever."

You just agreed with my words.

[ZunZero97]

You should understand the GLA has no aircraft, unless he reached the 3 star GP.
Build kodiaks and Conscrtipts please and micro your army. Put any effort as you can more action-per-minute is more probably to win.

5 conscripts dead? pay attention to middle and watch what is the killer: keep in mind Technical:500 Conscripts=50 9X50=450!! please send more conscripts and Kodiaks.

Worker on your undefended supply start to build dushksa or tunnel or even tunnel with dushka,

Dushka's build time is decreased!! send a Conscript to kill the worker.

because why not. BMP from another supply will drive very long time,

You spending many time with this and this is the main problem.

your barraks will be blocked with tech it they are on undefendet supply or just destroyed,

BMPs???? Kodiaks?????? They are not adornment!

or you dont have time and cash to build another one and send infantry to protect base.

Supply trucks will serve the cause of Russia, gathering money each 3-4 seconds?(correct me if im wrong.

Anyway, your opponent will have at this stage all middle of the map, oils, 3-4 supplies, T1-T2 tech, he will start build army of quads and scorps + buggies...
And we have 2 trucks and dozer in Command Center.

And if want to be serius, Russia dont have chances vs GLA or another fast faction in 1v1. Now with 750 barraks, and free cap, its impossible to defend both base supplies and got something in the middle as slow faction. It was hard in 86, in 87 its impossible, GLA now dont need 1000$ and time for oil cap upgrade, and russia dont have money and time to build 2 barracks to defend even itself.

I dont know what is the situation with USA, ECA and China, but i clearly see that in 1v1 PvP Russia vs GLA balance is even worser than in 86

To all dev team, testers, members and other google bots. I personally, and most of the members want to see good balanced game in PvP. We all like ROTR, its great game with very big potencial in future. We all are very happy when see new toys, like blackbear and imba golems with coil guns(but this is another story), you can put in game GLA transformer that will be available when you have all 5 techs of all factions and build it from recyclers... But games becomes immortal only in online. Starcraft 1, CS 1.6, warcraft 3 are still alive, Starcraft 2 will live even longer. And Red Alert 3 with sh*t balance? And Red alert 3 Uprising without multiplayer at all? Where they are? They are death. I dont want to see dead Rotr after 2 years of realise. Now i see only new toys, new guns, new lights and heavenly music. But the main thing is in the same condition.

well, emm... you are new on this community and RTS games. Welcome!

This post has been edited by ZunZero97: 10 Dec 2016, 11:24

[Knjaz.]

People are expecting too much from the testers team, which barely got much time to actually test everything that was, is and will be added. The current state is actually decent enough to get a release, but it still have bugs left and right.

<....>

Thing is, everything he stated here, most of what Maja Nachi stated in her thread was already observed and discussed by us way prior to public test, in certain cases months before. I can't go any more detailed on this particular matter due to reasons , what i wanted to say is that it's definitely not something we "missed".

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 Dec 2016, 11:22

[HeDD]

"Sure buddy, join my games and observe to learn..."

Im not GLA player. I dont have now good mouse for it, i dont have knowledge and good APM for it.

Play vs Marakar GLA. He has knowledge of GLA, knowledge of this version. I want to see it.

[X1Destroy]

You just agreed with my words.

I'm afraid no one will keep post-release supports for theirs ancient games to be as long as what Blizzard did. You will have a bad time if that's what you're looking for these days, where the whole RTS genre is dying. C&C games barely survived because they at least can be modded, but everything else are gone by now.

Thing is, everything he stated here, most of what Maja Nachi stated in her thread was already observed and discussed by us way prior to release, in certain cases months before . But I can't go any more detailed than this on this particular matter due to reasons , what i wanted to say is that it's definitely not something we "missed".

Then isn't it just a "wait and see" thing?

[ZunZero97]

1-"Sure buddy, join my games and observe to learn..."

2-Im not GLA player. I dont have now good mouse for it, i dont have knowledge and good APM for it.

3-Play vs Marakar GLA. He has knowledge of GLA, knowledge of this version. I want to see it.

1-Ok.

2-Now i found your problem!

3-XAOC-RU, Knjaz, and even Marakar are good as Russia, they could learn you how to play good!

And please, play more pvp marches. Practice makes perfect.

[Damfoos]

My 5 cents regarding the Command Bunker thing. If memory serves me right, it was added not because "hey, it'd be nice to give it some gimmick", but because Russia was especially vulnerable to early GLA attacks and especially terror rushes. The latter, however, was later resolved by making Terrorists require WF, by adding Fukoff Burst to Grizzlies (this, and to help vs Hijackers), and by increasing build times of GLA vehicles (apparently it was never considered that buildtimes have to be longer than in ZH due to WF having no door animation, which adds a few seconds to ACTUAL build time), but the feature did stay.

I don't know if the Crane\Truck garrisoning is useful or not (hide Cranes from HK snipes maybe?) since I don't play PvP much (it's a pain to play on shit PC on 7-14 FPS, especially for the opposing player) and it makes zero difference in PvE, but it's been plenty of times when I accidentally put my first Crane into the Bunker, thus wasting time in the beginning because the mouse didn't click properly to unselect the Crane before clicking on the Bunker. This delay, again, makes zero difference in PvE, but in PvP even seconds matter, as I heard. I'm sure I'm not alone with this situation. Is this feature even needed anymore?

On another note: long after the TRush issue was somewhat resolved, Terrorists were changed again, now into fast running bombers, and Anarchists were added as T0 anti-structure infantry instead. And this is where I'd like to ask PvP players: those do NOT require WF, do considerable damage to structures, and, what's important, are not single-use. So, how potent the Anarchist-Techincal rush is vs Russia compared to 1.86 TRush? Is it easier or harder to counter? The Anarchists were added very recently, and I'm not sure if this was tested enough.

This post has been edited by Damfoos: 10 Dec 2016, 12:13

[Knjaz.]

3-XAOC-RU, Knjaz, and even Marakar are good as Russia, they could learn you how to play good!

And please, play more pvp marches. Practice makes perfect.

He'll have to rely on XAOC-RU then, because I'm generally agreeing that we have specific serious balance/playability issues - which are not even specific single faction related, but go in contradiction with RotR asymmetric faction balance design in it's core - and Marakar's opinion you'll hear in this thread later, I bet.

P.S. Telling Dell to learn from XAOC-RU? It's the other way around, last I remember. Could be mistaken, ofc, I didn't see XAOC for a looong time, but that's what I remember.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 Dec 2016, 12:24