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China, A question
{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 25 Mar 2017, 13:34
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Minigunners? hellfires? just generally covering your flanks or just bum rushing him with units?


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__CrUsHeR
post 25 Mar 2017, 16:08
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QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 24 Mar 2017, 18:34) *
Honestly, what more could you add to china that they dont have already?

Anything that makes the faction more attractive from a point of view aimed to a more polished, diversified and attractive gameplay.

The issue would not, in my view, cover technical problems related to balancing; simply does not seem to be as fun as the other factions... the faction's gameplay style would have to be rethought.

This post has been edited by __CrUsHeR: 25 Mar 2017, 16:12


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Hanfield
post 25 Mar 2017, 18:16
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Too bad currency manipulation isn't an in-game mechanic :V


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XoGamer
post 25 Mar 2017, 22:54
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Why


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ZunZero97
post 26 Mar 2017, 6:59
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The thing is China still using flak weapons in the year 2342(i suppose)
Maybe implement some new tecnology to China likely when the devs added the recycler system.


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Jet02
post 26 Mar 2017, 7:27
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*2047. If it were 2342 we would probably be playing with quantum teleporters and plasma rifles by now.(to think of it, why no plasma weaponry in rotr?)

Take a look at the gla arsenal. Now THAT is ancient.

And iirc current chinese tech is gonna stay for good. Except maybe for general Jin if i'm not wrong. J-20s, maybe a modern spec ops unit?

Also(again) just how effective can flak be against armoured targets?
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XoGamer
post 26 Mar 2017, 9:05
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Hmm I was thinking of maybe an upgrade that would increase the survivability of Chinese tanks by increasing their health by a little? Maybe something like increased tank armour/health for 1500-2500, makes them more cost effective tongue.gif


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Hanfield
post 26 Mar 2017, 13:14
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QUOTE (ZunZero97 @ 26 Mar 2017, 7:59) *
The thing is China still using flak weapons in the year 2342(i suppose)
Maybe implement some new tecnology to China likely when the devs added the recycler system.

Russia is still using AK-74s in the 24th century, then :V


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X1Destroy
post 26 Mar 2017, 13:28
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why no plasma weaponry in rotr?


AT drone have plasma torches that melt tanks, but that's all. Anything more and it's gonna be over the top like Alexander in Shockwave.


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Neutrino
post 26 Mar 2017, 13:38
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China can draw exquisite paintings of napalm, emp and nukes.

Its also a steamroller faction based on firepower (chain guns, black napalm and nuclear shots) and not armour. Why should it be redesigned? As a faction it's fun, diverse and easy to play
(provided you always choose nuke GP tongue.gif jk)


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__CrUsHeR
post 26 Mar 2017, 14:16
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I do not see a problem with flak guns, or any other old technology revived by ROTR, the problem is when the faction gets stuck with these technologies and this restricts the fun; If this is a reason for such creativity or gameplay limitations I am in favor of modernizing China's arsenal.

Returning to the problem of "Mass Mobilization": Troop Crawler has lost its main function (It was fun) that should be to transport infantry (vGen, ZH) due to the fact that it is much more practical to send infantry in quantity walking than in transport, Battlemaster lost space for its miniaturized version, Tankneer, (even more generic than the Battlemaster) which is more economical and interesting in numbers, some examples...

Another point: the possible combos for artillery like the Inferno Cannon are ridiculously powerful, there are three possible upgrades dedicated to increase the damage of this unit which is an exaggeration; I also think that the Horde Bonus has become banal for the faction when it was once a privilege.


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Neo
post 26 Mar 2017, 14:42
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I think China's gameplay design change instead of units' design etc. Because, China got a lot of new stuff such as volunteer squad, hopper tank, shenlong etc. as well as new gps. We should expect more changes for China's arsenal in the future.


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MARS
post 26 Mar 2017, 15:03
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I just want to point out that there is absolutely nothing inherently 'outdated' about the weapons associated with the term 'flak' in ROTR. It may not be a special fancy-tech kind of weapon, but virtually every dedicated anti-aircraft weapon today works the same way: A thing that people often forget, due to incorrect yet iconic depictions in media, is that anti-aircraft missiles and even the shells that came before them generally don't destroy a flying target via direct impact and explosive power but through fragmentation. The missile/shell is generally programmed to explode near the target and tear it apart with a hail of fragments. More sophisticated systems consist of an expanding rod, where the explosion rapidly expands a cylinder of connected metal rods into a ring shape that cuts through the target.

The Chinese flak weapons in-game work by the previous principle of airburst fragmentation, which isn't outdated by any means, and it could be argued that the missiles used to carry those fragmenting explosive warheads to their targets - like the ones fired by the MiG - possess modern, up-to-date guidance, navigation and engines, considering that they're just as reliable as the missiles used by Raptors and Berkuts. Based on their performance in-game, one could even speculate further that China has actually perfected the concept of programmed airbursting fragmentation warheads at least to the same level as the ECA (their canister shells utilise the same principle) because American and Russian air-to-air missiles, which presumably work the same way as they do in real life, do not have the splashy area effect that you see on a Chinese MiG or Tank Hunter/Twinfang shells.

Even the Tank Hunter's weapon could be considered more advanced than it seems on the level of abstraction seen in-game: It is a recoilless rifle that is somehow capable of reliably hitting helicopters and low-flying aircraft, which has to be made possible by some high-quality weapon sights and likely some kind of ballistic computer to properly track a fast-moving target and program the shell accordingly. The shells themselves are also powerful enough to reach and destroy these targets, which can be anything from a thinly armoured aircraft to a battle tank, though I personally imagine that they would be using some kind of HEAT or even kinetic shell when firing at ground vehicles, which the game would logically omit for the sake of abstraction.

Point is, there is nothing inherently outdated about the Chinese flak weapons, because the simple principle of 'hit target with an explosively formed shotgun blast of metal pieces' is in itself pretty timeless.

This post has been edited by MARS: 26 Mar 2017, 15:08
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re_simeone
post 26 Mar 2017, 16:54
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Ask me... (But nobody really did)
*SUGGESTION ALERT !!*
I would add static Flak Cannon to China, actually maybe one General, as a nod to RA2.
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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 26 Mar 2017, 22:39
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This is getting suggesty, and why does china need more aa?
They literally have the Win fang, the best t2aa in the game, they have migs, they have gats and tank hunters too. They don't need more aa.

What most of you aren't realising is that currently china is the ONLY faction in the game that can handle every situation effectively and evenly at every stage of the game. China has no serious weaknesses anywhere because all of its units are responsive, varied and above all else (unlike a considerable amount of other factions in the game) all of china's units are useful.

The only weakness that china really has is getting dicked by Boris, but even then thats such a minor weakness that can be delt with that its more of a player issue than a design one.

QUOTE
Anything that makes the faction more attractive from a point of view aimed to a more polished, diversified and attractive gameplay.

China literally has this more than any other faction in the game currently, and it cant really do more/get more added that wouldnt break this effect.

QUOTE
We should expect more changes for China's arsenal in the future.

No, we shoudlnt. China is in a good spot already, it doesn't need anything more in terms of units.

QUOTE
The thing is China still using flak weapons in the year 2342(

2042-2045 not 2342. Not sure if that is a typo, but if it isnt i suggest you re-read the lore entries Zun.


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__CrUsHeR
post 26 Mar 2017, 23:37
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QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 26 Mar 2017, 18:39) *
China literally has this more than any other faction in the game currently, and it cant really do more/get more added that wouldnt break this effect.

Okay, I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree with it.


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Rohan
post 27 Mar 2017, 5:40
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Some thoughts on China :-

China seems to be over the top when it comes to unit visual effects. Like once you reach the mid game, every unit has a Propaganda star, Horde bonus decal and due to the usage of troop crawlers and ecm tanks there are unit range auras everywhere. It just doesn't give a good feeling when the visual effects are so much that you cannot focus on the unit models themselves. This problem gets enhanced due to the spam tactics of China. It ends up making China a circus show faction.

The second issue is that Propganda and Horde bonuses have become too mainstream and easy to access. This has taken away the challenge factor which was present in ZH China. The Troop Crawler in my opinion is one of the most bloated units in ROTR with just too many abilities.

I think making China a bit challenging to play is the right direction to make this faction on par to the other four. That and the visual effects need a rework.


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Rohan
post 27 Mar 2017, 5:59
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I cannot edit my post for some reason but I wanted to add this.

The second issue interestingly ties to the first point as making these bonuses mainstream is what has caused the visual overload of China.



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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 27 Mar 2017, 8:51
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QUOTE (__CrUsHeR @ 27 Mar 2017, 0:37) *
Okay, I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree with it.


Im curious as to what specifics you consider that china needs?

Because the only thing i can think of is a reactive boris counter rather than a pre-emptive counter.


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M01
post 27 Mar 2017, 10:15
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@Rohan

Isn't the horde bonus effective once it has been upgraded???

This shouldn't be a problem since it's one (I Think) of the general Exclusive upgrade (Chen-> Nationalism)

I like China's current unit list they perfectly synergizes with one another, anything "new" should just be a general exclusive
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Jet02
post 27 Mar 2017, 11:48
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How is boris supposed to be a problem?
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__CrUsHeR
post 27 Mar 2017, 13:02
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QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 27 Mar 2017, 4:51) *
Im curious as to what specifics you consider that china needs?

Because the only thing i can think of is a reactive boris counter rather than a pre-emptive counter.

If you are satisfied with the current gameplay of China you will only need one or other adjustment related to the balancing, however if you analyze China as a faction that needs to be improved and polished for not being up to par of other factions (gameplay, faction desing, etc), you will see that a lot of things would need to be rethought.

As I commented and the other players commented on China, some main themes of the faction were saturated to the point of being banalized (Napalm, Horde Bonus, Nuke, Mass Mobilization, etc.), and consequently some combos became boring by pushes the player to a "brainless gameplay".

I want to avoid giving suggestions, so this is in fact only a criticism of China's current gameplay.


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Hanfield
post 27 Mar 2017, 13:08
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QUOTE (Jet02 @ 27 Mar 2017, 12:48) *
How is boris supposed to be a problem?

When your only counter to him is a nuke cannon, when the other methods are either unresponsive or shot down by Grumbles, he becomes a problem :V


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XoGamer
post 27 Mar 2017, 17:59
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technically you can counter him with inferno cannon

Although, other vanilla factions already have a great mix of their future generals but China seems to be missing quite a bit of Secret Police general - I think China is missing subversive tactics

This post has been edited by XoGamer: 27 Mar 2017, 18:04


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Rohan
post 27 Mar 2017, 21:40
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QUOTE (M01 @ 27 Mar 2017, 14:45) *
@Rohan

Isn't the horde bonus effective once it has been upgraded???

This shouldn't be a problem since it's one (I Think) of the general Exclusive upgrade (Chen-> Nationalism)

I like China's current unit list they perfectly synergizes with one another, anything "new" should just be a general exclusive


I don't know, you should ask a tester. :hmm

The issue is that all units have access to the bonus which as Crusher said makes it banal but also makes the faction look messy because the graphical effects goes over the top. To give my point substance, here are some screenshots :-

Zero Hour Chinese Army Composition : http://i67.tinypic.com/bia1s1.jpg
Very clean look because the bonus auras are restricted.

Compare this to

ROTR Chinese Army Composition : http://i68.tinypic.com/352rtip.jpg
Doesn't look good because of the Horde and Propoganda decals going over the top.

Even in gameplay, Chinese armies are not very attractive or interesting to look at because they are an eyesore due to excessive decals : http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv82/Haths/sshot027.jpg

Compare and consider how good the USA Army looks far better and appealing in comparison to the Chinese Army : http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/5/4333/3.1.jpg and http://rotr.swr-productions.com/get_screen...reenshot_id=131



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