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Lets get Crazy :, Superweapon discussion:
Hanfield
post 13 Apr 2017, 20:41
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QUOTE (XoGamer @ 13 Apr 2017, 20:08) *
Just leave the SWs as they are, but then maybe they should be balanced so that competitive play features unlimited SWs allowed

How does one leave them as they are and then balance them? That presumes changing them :V


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 14 Apr 2017, 0:32
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QUOTE (Umpfelgrumpf @ 13 Apr 2017, 17:29) *
Could you give some more information about why that patch was so awesome?
Were cheap SW's the best part or was there something else?
I'm interested^^


It was the patch just after the drone plant was dropped and the Drone centre was added, and super weapons prices were dropped down to 2.5k. They also had the old 1.86 cooldowns.

To understand why that was such a big deal you have to understand what i and many others would consider to be rotr's biggest flaw, and that is how its economy works and how its defenders advantage amplifies that.
Rotr's economy is strange because the best way to get money is not to expand and get recourses on the map. It is to turtle and get your Sec eco, then spam that so you have a growing amount of money to use once your supplies quickly mine out.
This (with few exceptions on map) locks the rotr meta into the following:

>get your t2 as fast as you can
>get a small defencing force/base def
>get your t2 economy as soon as you can
>spam that shit so youre safe
>out eco your opponent and just grind spam vs spam till you win

Now i say with few exceptions on map, and that is pretty much the reason we mainly play on just lagoon and homeland rocks, because those maps offer some amount of flanking and expansion opportunities that can turn the meta away from this.
Somewhere along the line the community became totally afraid of allowing maps to have middle supplies or middle tech structures because some people got an obsession with removing TTMOD maps (take the mid or die maps) and they werent wrong, TTMOD maps were pretty bad.
But the issue was fixed wrong. The assets that made it ttmod werent what made those maps shit, it was the lack of flanking, backdooring and counter attacking possibilities that made those maps shit. Without those all you could do was chareg head first into the middle sections, and if the enemy had base def (which they always did because rotr's base defence is wayy too overbloated even on the base non-2.0 stuff) you would just lose because they had defenders advantage.

i should probably explain what that means. Defenders advantage is exactly what it says on the tin. It means whoever is defending, has the advantage.
This is due to many things, but mainly its because:
- Base defence is very cheap and very powerful at most cases due to rotr's hard counters countering shit hard
- Because units build so quickly often you can spam your way through an enemy attack and overwhelm them
- Generals powers come from your side of the map so they get to your base quicker than your enemies in most cases
- very few maps have opportunities to go around a defended area to attack a foe

Now these arent necessarily bad things (especially from the eyes of a pve player because they are needed vs the ai) but when combined with the sec eco economic focus it further pushes the meta into that slower clunkier wall of units vs wall of units.

The best example of this is games like this.

EDIT: youtube link doesnt work, so click This

You can see how the game just grinds at the end where it turns into a slog for who can get more money and more defence (either in units or base defence) to counter their opponent, and he who has less sec eco loses.
So pretty much, the early/mid game hardly define the game at all and because theyre over so quickly the games becomes heavily focused towards the late game.



2.5 K super weapons fixed this.



Originally super weapons were always supposed to be used to break stalemates and counter the late game crawl, but because originally they cost alot of money, were near impossible to kill if you didnt focus all your generals powers at them, and had rather short cooldowns, they became a balance liability rather than a fix.

However, when the most important issue there was fixed (the cost) the barrier to entry was lowered and super weapons became very very easy to acquire and use.
It was also very important because it meant that 9 times out of 10, if your opponent was ahead and they got a super weapon, you didnt have to slog and cancel units to counter it, you could get your own easily.
Now that was a greta change on its own for that reason alone, but thats not the only reason why they helped.
The cheap super weapons really did kill the late game sec eco meta, because you could kill the defenders advantage.

Ignoring the fact that the super weapons now forced both you and your enemies to play aggressive to counter them (which also helped kill this), it made setting up sec eco and defending it way harder.
If you had a super weapon ready to go often you had a choice of either kill your enemies secondary economy, kill their army or kill their defence lines. Any one of those choices would shatter the sec eco meta.

If your opponent had lots of defences, boo hoo, theyre dead, you blow it up and roll in. If they had shitloads of sec eco, say bye bye to it because its going down and they have to waste all their future money getting it back up again. If they had a huge army but not much else and they werent killing you with it, its their fault for not attacking.

If youve ever played high level shockwave or zero hour you'll know the game is far more unit focused and each unit is more important (with the exception of air units) than they are in rotr. Because you were forced to play aggressively to counter your opponents super weapons the game had a very similar feel to that. The game was simply more fluid.
The late game road blocks that killed the pacing and slowed everything down were removed and the game became a fast fun unit based scramble.

It was amazing.

Now ill admit there were a shitload of flaws to this system too, the first being the original super weapon cooldowns and that super weapons were still GP sponges, but one of those got fixed so it wouldn't surprise me that the other could be fixed in the future too.
But the fact that it broke the meta, the fact it made rotr fluid and fast was one of the single best changes ever made.

QUOTE
Just leave the SWs as they are, but then maybe they should be balanced so that competitive play features unlimited SWs allowed

... what han said...

This post has been edited by {Lads}RikerZZZ: 14 Apr 2017, 1:27


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Knjaz.
post 14 Apr 2017, 1:01
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QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 14 Apr 2017, 2:32) *
It was amazing.


Are you talking about short cooldown 2.5k SWs?

that was absolutely unplayable, not awesome. Majority of the tester team's opinion, excluding you/Bruce tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 14 Apr 2017, 1:01
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Umpfelgrumpf
post 14 Apr 2017, 1:11
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^
Thanks a lot for the good explanation Rikerzzz, I'm sure it took some time and I hope people take their time and read through your post because it's very interesting.

I think that rebuildable tech structures for example are, like the changes to SW's and health reduction of T2 economy buildings, a great way in the right direction when it comes to the subject of lategame eco and that, as you said, the maps play a huge role in wether a game is fun and fair or not.

QUOTE
>get your t2 as fast as you can
>get a small defencing force/base def
>get your t2 economy as soon as you can
>spam that shit so youre safe
>out eco your opponent and just grind spam vs spam till you win


that's exactly how games play out often, if one player has a small advantage due to some harassment/ small attacks he will stay in that advantage and outeco the other one.
Another reason is, that if a player has a GP lead it's easier for him to stay ahead and get more GP's and harass the enemy and so on.


QUOTE
i should probably explain what that means. Defenders advantage is exactly what it says on the tin. It means whoever is defending, has the advantage.
This is due to many things, but mainly its because:
- Base defence is very cheap and very powerful at most cases due to rotr's hard counters countering shit hard
- Because units build so quickly often you can spam your way through an enemy attack and overwhelm them
- Generals powers come from your side of the map so they get to your base quicker than your enemies in most cases
- very few maps have opportunities to go around a defended area to attack a foe


A few other things that come to my mind which have a place on that list:
- It's very easy to scout because of good and cheap scout units every faction has, so you will hardly get flanked unlike in Zero Hour where people often play without radar
even and where no dedicated scout units exist.

- Because of scouting and knowing what will come you can often defend more efficient than your enemy, even if you get less money. That means you kill more units of the
enemy then he does with your stuff, which leads to a GP advantage that the defender gets, even when the attacker controls more supplies/ larger portion of the map.
(related to your first point)
-> that makes it even easier to defend yadda yadda.

- infantry units in RotR are very strong compared to ZH (since 1.85 they got so cheap I think) and infantry units are very slow -> better for defending than attacking.



I would very much like to see the game as you described it smile.gif. However a lot of rebalancing would be needed then, if most late game situations were centered on small amounts of money and single units being useful. Stuff like for example cashhack GP, jaegers cash steal, burtons ability to destroy buildings, insurrection mob, ECA protocols, blackbear would be in need for a change.

However that is up to you guys, and I guess also the community, since it's public beta, to figure out smile.gif.
It's very hard to always balance things out if new stuff gets added by the devs in every update. But I think, as I said in the beginning, you testers are on the right way and the game is a lot more fun than it was when I started playing smile.gif.

edit: btw, the video linked doesn't work for me. Does it work for you other people?

This post has been edited by Umpfelgrumpf: 14 Apr 2017, 1:13


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 14 Apr 2017, 1:40
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QUOTE (Knjaz. @ 14 Apr 2017, 2:01) *
Are you talking about short cooldown 2.5k SWs?

that was absolutely unplayable, not awesome. Majority of the tester team's opinion, excluding you/Bruce tongue.gif


>are you
Mate did you even read my reply
Re read my reply.

As for Ump, thanks for letting me know, ive relinked the youtube video in a less nice way. No idea why the tag wasnt working. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Youre very right about scouting too (something bruce is very vocal about). Scouting in rotr is way too easy so its very easy to know everything your opponent is up too at any time.

that said, i feel thats a map issue more than a design issue but you could argue that the scouts have not been designed with the maps in mind rather than the other way around.


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XoGamer
post 14 Apr 2017, 17:42
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QUOTE (Hanfield @ 13 Apr 2017, 20:41) *
How does one leave them as they are and then balance them? That presumes changing them :V


I meant, Leave them alone OR Change them so that it's balanced with unlimited SWs

This post has been edited by XoGamer: 14 Apr 2017, 17:43


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Knjaz.
post 15 Apr 2017, 0:03
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QUOTE (XoGamer @ 14 Apr 2017, 19:42) *
I meant, Leave them alone OR Change them so that it's balanced with unlimited SWs


I'm afraid it'd either require super weak/super cost-inefficient SWs or ZH gameplay with only small unit group tactics where 2-5 units easily change the game mid/lategame., which is opposite of RotR.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 15 Apr 2017, 0:04
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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 15 Apr 2017, 9:40
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I reckon if you tonned down the super weapons and made them more GP-ish it would work for unlimited, or atleast a tight number rather than 1


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ZunZero97
post 2 May 2017, 7:38
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Or make the SW back with 5k of money with the original cooldown wink.gif


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 2 May 2017, 11:00
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Zun... just stop.


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XAttus
post 2 May 2017, 13:43
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Or just... remove them and keep them a gig for Singleplayer. No superweapons, one less problem. *runs away*


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M.P
post 2 May 2017, 14:40
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Or, Go C&C3 route and make all SWs deal same ammount of damage in same AOE, Just with different ways to deliver the damage. (Obviously they'll have same Cool down as well)

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RedDeadSmeg
post 2 May 2017, 18:46
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QUOTE (M.P @ 2 May 2017, 14:40) *
Or, Go C&C3 route and make all SWs deal same ammount of damage in same AOE, Just with different ways to deliver the damage. (Obviously they'll have same Cool down as well)



Not sure how that would work with the particle cannon...unless you turn it into an ion cannon tongue.gif
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X1Destroy
post 2 May 2017, 19:53
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Instead of having unlimited super weapons, I'd like them to stay limited but become real game enders. Not by doing some support actions with GPs+airstrikes but just by it being there.

I meant, after it's launched you win automatically because it destroyed the whole base and not just some buildings. The entire point of the game should be to prevent it from being fired. Should have a much longer cool down, like 20 minutes and won't be denied easily with GP.

For the Particle cannon, it would be the exception of the rule. The only reason to build it is to get rid of your opponent's SW, and nothing more. It won't destroy the base for you, but if it get to fire no single building should be able to withstand the blast.



This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 2 May 2017, 19:56


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Skitt
post 2 May 2017, 22:23
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^^^^^ good luck verses a competent player in reaching there sw before it fires. even with a 20 min timer.
Eca v Russia (russia haveing the sw on a medium/large sized map) for example.


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 3 May 2017, 0:29
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Theres no reason to redesign the entire super weapon mechanic. All that needs fixing is minor adjustments to its implementation.

Game ender super weapons would play like cancer, no super weapons is the same as 1.86 and is a lategame spamfest mess and equal super weapons is an easy way to implement it, but its not very interesting.

As I said in my explanation before, if you want super weapons to work fluidly you need to make them have a purpose and make them fair, and as far as im concerned and untill someone proves otherwise, the best way to do that is make super weapons assessable and slow.


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