Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 24 Jan 2013, 10:41

It's finally happened. After years of dithering dove governments, the DPRK Has created a real ICBM and probably cappable of hitting US mainland.

And we have 3 years of democrat ahead of us.

Way to go western world.

More seriously, it might not be real, but it most certainly WILL cause mass panic. Even otherwise, Theres large chances of south korea responding with a nuclear arsenal, and we'll have a second Pakistan/India on our hands.
Point is, this is a real problem now.


Please Discuss.

Posted by: MARS 24 Jan 2013, 15:02

Today they build ICBMs. Tomorrow, they http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vwx1f0kyNwI

Posted by: zachert45 24 Jan 2013, 18:38

MW2. But in Real Life

Posted by: piratep2r 25 Jan 2013, 1:26

TL;DR response: I am not worried now, but am worried mid-long term; i don't think that they are close to a nuclear ICBM. I also don't think the current central government in NK would ever use a nuclear missile to preemptively attack the US even if they had one, but if the government fell it would be an enormous mess; basically what the world is afraid of as a worst case scenario in Pakistan. Additionally, it raises interesting and scary possibilities for other countries to run a false flag operation on NK to trigger such an event; one can only imagine the geo-political changes that could cause. Unfortunately, there seems to be very little the US can do about the situation; the best move would be to work with China to accomplish change, but there is no incentive for china to do this AFAIK. IMO invasion is out, limited strikes are out, covert action is out, electronic sabotage is difficult and risky.

Full Response:

Well, you asked for "discuss." I find it hard to imagine that having a hawkish American Republican President would have made any difference in North Korea's ability to build ICBMs. So I thought that comment of yours about democrats was weird.

Seriously, though, I think NK is a very interesting and frightening case, though I must admit I know fairly little about it; I've read about how their intense militarization and propaganda has utterly destroyed their economy to the extent that mass famines and limited modern education are a common reality there (though literacy is very high).

re: technology: from what little I have read, they are quite close to building a missile that can hit "the US." Is that Alaska? I do not know. Let us assume that it is not, that it is actually the west coast somewhere. From what I have read, NK is nowhere near being able to build a nuclear warhead capable of fitting in any rocket they can build in the next few years. That is much further off. Apparently (and I did not really know this until digging a little online) it is quite hard to build a warhead small enough to fit in a very long range missile.

Economically their economy has been contracting since 2006, and according to Wikipedia, their official figures (ie, NK's figures) put their average salary for a Korean worker at $2(US$)/month. Most men have to work in the factories (many of which are not even functioning) so women earn the largest portion of the household earning by being available to work in the illegal economy that functions outside the state economy. over 50% of the country is malnourished or underweight, and the average person does not have constant access to electricity. From a food perspective, the US was the single largest provider of food to NK until the bush jr administration, at which point much of the US food aid was cut off. Life expectancy is currently 169th in the world. The country is not doing well by its citizens, and poor, malnourished, and uneducated citizens do not a strong country make.

Militarily they have an enormous and mostly antiquated army (and submarine fleet - did you know that?!?). They apparently have some higher technology items, but I have no idea what is hype and what is real, or what is practical and what is useless (for example, how good is their "stealth paint?" or their "anti-personel lasers?"). I think the most important two functions for their military (besides the obvious one of helping to ensure state control) is as a practical opposition to a ground attack from any other player (especially SK, China, and RUS) and as a means of holding the south Korean peninsula hostage - apparently NK has thousands of artillery tubes aimed at cities in SK, ready to retaliate if the US (or anyone else) tries to interfere with their bomb/missile making. Having SK civilian centers effectively held hostage is IMO one of the reasons no US president (D, R, or otherwise) would "go into" NK.

RE: foreign relations: NK imports most of its fuel and much of its food from China (a possible outcome of a hawkish US president cutting off their food aid? - just speculation from me); yet US and UN foreign policy has been completely unable to get China to sanction NK; indeed, china (per Wikipedia) subsidizes the government of NK through below market value fuel sales and other support. IMO this is to keep NK afloat so it can be a distraction and deterrent for any US ambitions in the region; it is hard to image what would make them stop doing so, unless NK started to directly threaten them. While one could argue that a nuclear NK is a threat to china, practically speaking china is their best and most serious ally.

Put this all together, and you have a country that is terrified of its neighbors and the US (perhaps rightly so). They are weak economically, from a fuel supply perspective, and from a food perspective; they probably see themselves as very vulnerable in many ways, as well as surrounded by enemies and potential enemies. Despite this weakness, they have very effectively leveraged WW2 and cold war era technology into building a military that is aimed like a guillotine at the most vulnerable parts of their nearest neighbor (who happens to be a closest ally of their perceived greatest threat), thus effectively holding hundreds of thousands of civilians hostage in exchange for peace. This is an effective stratagy, but only a fool would count on it to work forever, and besides, if the leaders are truly paranoid, they may suspect that some enemies would not balk at potential casualties in SK. In order to maintain a credible threat, therefor, they must ultimately appear to strong and ready to effectively attack someone other than SK. Especially after what happened in Iraq (Iraq had no WMD, and no way to directly attack the USA, though had an enormous conventional army), it is natural to assume that NK wants the ability to directly attack the US in order to earn the respect (and therefor safety) it craves. It is also IMO a reasonable long term goal in adjusting their relationship with china; right now they offer little to china, but having effective nuke missiles would give them a potential threat against a growing power.

Long story short: I am not worried now, but am worried mid-long term. I don't think the current central government in NK would ever use a nuclear missile to preemptively attack the US, but if the government fell it would be an enormous mess; basically what the world is afraid of as a worst case scenario in Pakistan. Despite the terrible conditions in the country, the Korean government seems very stable; the people do not seem about to rise up in revolt, and the existing government is supported by china. N Korea having nuclear missiles is a rational choice for N Korea (as is acting hyper aggressive), but also it raises interesting and horrifying possibilities for other countries to run a false flag operation on NK to trigger such an event; one can only imagine the Geo-political changes that could cause. Unfortunately, there seems to be very little the US can do about the situation; the best move would be to work with China to accomplish change, but there is no incentive for china to do this AFAIK. IMO invasion is out, limited strikes are out, covert action is out, electronic sabotage is difficult and risky.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 25 Jan 2013, 4:24

The hawk vs. dove part was a bad joke and i couldn't resist slamming my bias into it.


In china however, the common perspective of North Korea is "Town Drunk" The chinese deal with NK so that there won't be a influx of refugees.
To say the truth however, ICBMS aren't the threat the seem to be these days, With the YAL 747 Prototype already up and running, It won't be that long before a real SDI is in place, meaning missiles need far more tech than simply "Get over there". The missiles have 3 purposes. 1): Being able to beat South Korea in Total war and presumably conquer them. 2):To prove their new leader to the rest of the world. 3):Threatening the US.

South Korea is right next to japan, which has both spacecraft and nuclear technology, essentially a De Facto Nuclear Power. It is possible that they will buy nuclear Missiles from japan in the form of the parts (Insert IKEA joke here). And we'll have another Nuclear standoff.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 25 Jan 2013, 9:13

Annnnd now the idiots have declared the war back on again.

Brb, buying bunker construction materials.

Posted by: GDIZOCOM 25 Jan 2013, 12:47

This isn't MW2 in real life in the sense that they can't just grab some scrambler, shut down satellite systems and launch a surprise attack. Besides, the US isn't the only country who's keeping an eye on North Korea.


Whether we like it or not there isn't a lot that can be done about this. For a country that puts the military first and being the most isolated country on earth I just hope they don't do it. If it EVER does happen I'm not quite sure what the US, or UN for that matter might do. Still disturbs me how life goes on in that country

Posted by: Kichō 25 Jan 2013, 17:13

Most of North Korean threats is groundless, rarely do they carry them out. The only recent attack they carried out was the shelling of Yeongpyeong island.

I'm not worried because it'll be years before they can actually deploy a missile capable of delivering a nuclear warhead. In that amount of time, things could be different. Not only that but China will not allow the DPRK to interfere with its trade and relations.

Partially right, the Kim family is a personality cult, the people revere them as gods and are spoonfed propaganda that 'Juche' is 'it'. Anyone questioning the regime will be sent to Camp 22. Recently, Kim Jong-un implemented changes (perhaps to keep the masses in check) such as allowing farmers to keep most of their crops, sacking of a military chief. It's sad they still keep Songun. (On a side note, China abolished "re-education through labour camps")

While the government may be supported, the relationship isn't as cosy as you may think. NKorean border troops have shot Chinese tourists, detained fisherman, hassled Chinese businesses. The PRC has backed most sanctions on the DPRK, the Foreign Ministry even called Pyongyang a "spoilt child" and other choiceful words. China has even said that they'd be prepared to accept a unified Korea with Seoul as its capital. The fear Beijing has is the influx of refugees should Pyongyang collapse.

China is being cautious by using dialogue.

Posted by: SorataZ 25 Jan 2013, 18:54

I'd watch that.

As for the issue at hand:
North Korean propaganda is basicly "we are kind of awesome as everyone else is much worse". Tell that often enough to the common, undereducated citizen and they will believe it and if not, just put them in reeducation camps. So some kind of support from the population is a given.
As for the nukes, both Chinese and American agencies have found out that NK tested nuclear weapons over the course of the last decade and one of their downed sattelites actually was one such ICBM system if without the actual nuke. NK loves muscle play, so once they will have developed a functioning, armed ICBM system, they will threaten others with it, much like how they keep SK in check by means of artillery. But if they will actually use the nuke is another issue and thankfully, even their government shouldn't be as stupid as to engage a nuclear attack.

As for China, they are more embarrassed than ok with the situation of being allied with NK. A direct confrontation isnt unlikely.

Posted by: MARS 25 Jan 2013, 19:30

Personally, I'm not so much concerned about North Korean missiles, but disturbed by the mere existence of the country as a geographical construct. I find it scarier than those war and disease ridden hell holes in parts of Africa; those are just pure lawless anarchy whereas North Korea is a state entity that is consciously designed and meant to be the way it is. It is a country whose poverty ridden people have been locked in and indoctrinated with the idea that its leaders are literally divine beings for multiple generations by now, a nation that is so deliberately isolated and cut off from the outside world that the word of the leader is pretty much their sole concept of reality. The ideology behind this has a lot more in common with national socialism rather than communism and there is a standing army of over one million men who, despite being undertrained, underequipped and undernourished, would probably be willing to defend this twisted entity to the death with a degree of fanaticism that may rival the Imperial Japanese Army in the unlikely but possible event of a military escalation. All things considered, this is the closest thing to '1984' in real life, a thing that just seems so utterly out-of-place in this supposedly globalised world and frightening by virtue of simply existing.

Posted by: Slavic Soldier 25 Jan 2013, 19:56

All countries which have nuclear missiles have the advantage over the non-nuclear countries.Look at USA and the countries they attacked.None of them had nuclear missiles,so there was not much keeping USA from attacking.
When a country 'goes nuclear',other countries would think twice before they attack it,and it's normal that we all want to be secured.
So i can't realy blame North Korea for wanting to make ICBMs,as i can't blame any other country which wants nuclear missiles.They most likely just want to be sure that USA would think twice before they attacked,and that is most likely the biggest reason why USA hasn't already invaded N.Korea.

The double standards are obvious.For example,from all NATO allies the country which is the most 'concerned' about Iran and the nukes they are allegedly making(Israel) never signed the NPT.And they say that Iran,a country that signed NPT is making nukes?It's logical to expect that Israel,a country that never even ratified NPT,is more likely to alreadly have nukes.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 3 Feb 2013, 2:28

1: Israel is not a fanatical near-insane terrorist organization in form of government
2: North Korea has repeatedly proven it prefers war over peace with it's artillery and other sabre rattling
3: Do you read Pro Al Queda news or something?
4: N.Korea wasn't invaded because it didn't obivously support terrorists yet.
5: Double standards? It's called common sense. Israel is a nation that we can trust, can we trust people who declare they want to destroy all else on earth like the Iranians or created a big brother esque dystopia like the north koreans?

Posted by: CoLT 3 Feb 2013, 4:26

I agree with none of this. Here's why.

The first sentence you are referring to what we call "deterrence". That is, when a country has significant military (or even economic) power, they have a force of deterrence to deter other countries from attacking them and their interests. While I agree that all countries and their people want to feel secure, it is arguable that nuclear weapons can actually have the opposite effect due to the fear of M.A.D (Mutually assured destruction) basically, both countries being destroyed if they start throwing nukes at each other. Hence why conventional warfare is still preferred.

You can blame North Korea for trying to build nukes. You can slam them for it. This is for a number of reasons. First, their expenditure on military grossly outweighs their expenses on welfare for the people. The money should be going into boosting industry and agriculture. That way the people can feed themselves at the very least.
Second, as it has been demonstrated on many occasions, the military forces of North Korea are not a pure deterrence force and are, in fact, more likely to be a harassment and attrition force. This has been demonstrated by the countless attacks on South Korea that originate from the North since the division of the two countries. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that nuclear weapons, if in the hands of North Korea, could actually be used against the South. Particularly since the last incident, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong, received no major reprisal from the South. Of course, the incident resulted in the deaths of many South Koreans and, for this reason, Defence Minister Kim Tae-young resigned. The criticism on his part being that not enough was done. The people wanted revenge, he provided shepherding, nothing more.

The point about Israel is highly untrue. While Israel may not be a supporter of nuclear disarmament, they are not likely to arm themselves with nuclear weapons either. This is again due to M.A.D which is more likely to happen if they arm themselves. Israel is not a radical, extremist nation. They are simply caught in the middle of a bad situation. Iran has enriched uranium to the point where they can build nuclear weapons and that poses a threat to all countries in the region. A nuclear strike against Israel is like to cause damage to several major cities without the possibility of retaliation. Furthermore, Israel already receives such bad press when defending themselves against attacks from Gaza and the like. It would not make sense then for them to arm themselves with such weapons if they would be able to do nothing more than incite neighbouring nations to attack them. Look at the press that Iran got for their uranium enrichment and now imagine if Israel were to do something similar. They are not like North Korea in any way and they do have free press, more or less, so a programme such as this would be in the media one way or another.

Please don't post such unfounded comments without any research. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Cite sources, after all, this is not the political forum and you don't want to start a flame war on this forum by posting unresearched, illogical or whatsoever comments. People might take offense to opinion but, less likely if it's towards researched, supported, facts. (Unless they're Gaza rocket launcher teams or similar , if you know what I mean.)

Posted by: SorataZ 3 Feb 2013, 14:20

I have more of a problem of you defending Israel than all the other things you said. First and foremost, Israel does have nukes, they just want to keep that an open secret. Keep it vague about how many they actually have. And just because we are allied with Israel doesn't mean the country is on the "good" side.

As for Iran, the country also receives a lot of bad press about how they want to get enriched uranium to make bombs. Here's the thing many media do not mention: to make pallets for a nuclear power plant and to make half-spheres for nuclear bombs is a lot more different than people think. So if Iran really wants to use nuclear power plants and gain an industry capable of making enriched uranium or plutonium, they could do that. But to gain uranium of high enough quality for a nuclear weapon requires several additional processes.

Anyway. According to official sources that our lovely Wikipedia continously gets in, the amount of troops of Nortk Korea is basicly so high you might call it "an army with a country" rather than a country with an army. As mentioned above, NK prefers muscle play and sporadic attacks, mostly on cities as a show of force. In case they really start a nuclear attack, there are several possibilities on how it would go and how the world would react.
1) The most likely outcome from a singular nuke attack: it gets shot down, SK pleads for help, the NATO reacts. NK fires all artillery to get SK down and then dies from permanent bombing itself.
2) Several nukes are launched at SK. It is probable that at least one of these will hit, resulting in a successful nuclear strike. Either all countries in the region will react with conventional means, or nuke NK outright (China, Pakistan, India being possible offenders).
3) A nuclear strike at a country other than SK. Unlikely, since SK is the main antagonist for NK. The next probable coutries are Japan ad the USA for their high-tech values. Japan might be taken by surprise, the USA would have plenty of time to react.
4) Least probable: NK fires so many nukes at once the entire region is bombarded and all countries react accordingly, resulting in nuclear annihilation. Unlikely, since that would require dozens upon dozens of functional nukes.

End of line: an actual nuclear attack is unlikely. Show of force very much so.

Posted by: MARS 3 Feb 2013, 14:54

The interesting thing about the Korean conflict is that the North always seems to get away with its blatant provocations. The bombardment of Yeonpyeong, the sinking of the Cheonan, the DMZ tunnels, the commando incursions, the Rangoon bombing - These are all instances that could have easily sparked a new war between the two but it never happened because the South, along with its foreign allies, would inevitably win the war - albeit at a heavy price - and end up chained to a dead economy that'd make the re-unification of Germany look like a child's play.

The North knows that the South wouldn't want to screw itself over and keeps provoking them to blackmail the rest of the world for aid. Also, one has to hand it to the KPA: They have the largest special forces branch in the entire world - although NK commandos obviously aren't frickin' Navy SEALS - and history has shown that they cal be ruthless, imaginative and batshit crazy when they have to. If shit ever hits the fan on the Korean peninsula, I wouldn't worry so much about the possiblility of a nuclear missile strike - I would worry about the nuke that might have already been covertly smuggled into Seoul.

As for Israel, they've never outright stated nor denied that they have nuclear weapons but everyone and their dog basically knows that they have 'em. For a country this paranoia-driven due to the dark history of its people and geographically isolated in a region that basically hates its guts, it would seem very likely to have nuclear weapons. They also have the capabilities to deploy these weapons by land, air and sea and a mysterious contingency doctrine that ranges between 'nuke the entire Middle East' and 'nuke the entire Middle East as well as everyone who has ever wronged our people' depending on who you ask.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 3 Feb 2013, 15:09

I really have some doubts about the nuclear capability of North Korea, apparently they have a vector for the bomb (Unha-3), and recently domonstraram they are able to perform an eventual attack, however one of the biggest secrets to those who holds this technology is related to the warhead of the missile, build a warhead is not a simple process, it demands a lot of knowledge related to engineering physics, mathematics among others, and it seems they have advanced in this direction but it is unclear if they are able to perform a successful detonation, soon we'll know the true north Korean nuclear capability because they must perform a test with the warhead and the vector in the next days.

This new test that North Korea intends to accomplish involves much things, and is directly related to the interests of China in the region as well as the hegemony of the communists.

Indeed the NK has become a problem for the west and pro-western in the region.

Posted by: MARS 3 Feb 2013, 15:59

The 'hegemony of the communists' really doesn't matter anymore these days. All the nominally 'red' countries have given up on that silly world revolution thing. China is too busy making tons of sweet money with the West and the current ideological makeup of North Korea seems more like an Asian version of nazism at this point. They've actually purged all references to communism from their constitution and are sporting a new coat of literal racism, to the point of considering themselves the 'cleanest race' and depicting others such as Americans and even South Koreans as dirty, disease-ridden subhumans. The fact that the ruling party still calls itself the Workers' Party doesn't make them commies; after all, Hitler's NSDAP was nominally a workers' party as well.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 3 Feb 2013, 18:46

I agree with what you said about the politics of North Korea and China, but I'm not referring to any silly ideology related to communism (world domination), I'm talking about the dictatorial red party hegemony in Asia literally, (national economic interests), the government of the Kim Jong-un has teamed up with Beijing because the affinities between both allow such partnership, North Korea has nothing to lose and China want to expand their horizons in opposition to the expansion of the pro-west countries (Vietnam, Japan, South Korea). In this scenario you have also the India and Russia that are not 'aligned' with neither side and has own interests.

Actually the story tells us that already happened before countless genocides in Asia, especially in China, unlike the west the genocide there is something 'cultural' and therefore 'acceptable' or at least indifferent to the population and governments that accustomed to writing more than 1,000 years of history with a lot of blood, there are differences between the ideology of Hitler and the regime of North Korea but one thing is fact: both degrade human life and are dangerous to the 'free world' we know.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 4 Feb 2013, 8:32

The one thing i'm trying to say is this.

Israel is mostly Rational.

Iran..................Well i don't think i need to explain this one. And north korea's pretty close to believing it's own lies.

It's about risk/reward really. Iran and possibly NK are both desensitized to risk due to fanaticism. Israel, despite a religon-based government, is still pragmatic.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 12 Feb 2013, 10:58

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd they fired off another one.

Personally i think someone's gonna have to pull on their leash soon.

Posted by: GDIZOCOM 12 Feb 2013, 12:53

It was most likely a test again. They say there's something really unusual about the tremor. You're right about the point that at sooner or later someone's going to make a move. I don't like where this can go, considering how the DPRK has bent the lives of everyone towards their dear leader and how some people are willing to drag every single soul they can to the grave with them.

Posted by: SorataZ 12 Feb 2013, 21:57

They've even shown video footage this time. Guess we're in for Cuba Crisis 2.0.

Posted by: Col._Sandfurz 12 Feb 2013, 23:33

I am absolutely not afraid of NK ICBM.. And you should also not..

To become a serious nucleat threat for US or Japan, a lot of peolpe before me have said that this will take some time.

But even today, the US (and Japan) have an answer to this: Meet the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-161_Standard_SM-3
Working since 2012, deployed to 18 vessels (afaik 3 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers and 15 Arleigh Burke guided missile destroyers) and prooven its capabilities 18 out of 20 times

So I highly doubt those NK missiles would ever be able to reach US mainland..

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 13 Feb 2013, 4:07

the problem is more psychological.

Some people don't know that and this could lead to panic.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 20 Feb 2013, 15:12

Just an update, but they've threatened to destroy South Korea.


Again.

Posted by: flyingpancake 24 Feb 2013, 0:23

I dont have much insight into this besides that it all kinda starts to look like the beginning of mercenaries 1 (great ps2 game). So if this gonna end up like how most people played that game the russian maffia is gonna end up owning the country

On a more serious note though i hope that regime ends quickly, i wont even care if china take control of NK. China will at leased give the people there a small amount of freedom and financial independence. But id rather have that they get reunited with SK again, how unrealistic that may be.

Posted by: Warpath 24 Feb 2013, 14:16

The regime MIGHT not end in the near future but it will collapse nonetheless, problem is their average citizen is indoctrinated heavily to the point that they'll believe anything their leadership say and the one that are smart enough either escape to SK, US any other part of the world or get's sent to a 're-education' camp.

On another note, the DPRK is a fucking nightmare to live in, I mean come on there's no freedom whatsoever, little to no food, you have to what practically amounts to worshiping your leader and one wrong word means your litteraly DEAD, this is Orson Wells greatest nightmare in the flesh. I really REALLY hope that anyone American, Chinese, Russian hell bring North K. down and reunify it with South K.

Posted by: MARS 24 Feb 2013, 14:42

North Korea is arguably the most intentionally insidious national entity since the Second World War. Worst of all, the regime isn't even trying to improve the living standards of its people, to the point where they flat-out claim that the misery is completely intentional because otherwise people would become weak and decadent.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 25 Feb 2013, 6:34

That means we don't count apple?

Posted by: Warpath 25 Feb 2013, 12:37

Yes, Apple doesn't count, it's a corporation not an country. Well, at least I think.

Posted by: Kichō 5 Mar 2013, 11:42

Somewhat related, but did anyone see their latest propaganda video? Their profile "Uriminzokkiri" uploaded a video showing what appears to be New York with an American flag shrouded in flames with an instrumental version of Michael Jackson's "We Are The World" in the background.

Now here comes the funny part, Activision got the video pulled because they claimed the footage was from Modern Warfare 3.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 5 Mar 2013, 12:05

That's why Iam more afraid of the big gaming companies like EA and Actvision than that of NK nuclear.

Posted by: MARS 5 Mar 2013, 18:34

Apparently, NK is currently threatening to discontinue the armistice agreement and sever the communications hotline with Seoul because SK and the US are going to run another exercise in the coming days. Not like that 'agreement' has ever been particularly important to the North, considering those flagrant spec-ops incursions and flat-out attacks on Southern territory we get every once in a while...

Posted by: MR.Kim 5 Mar 2013, 18:34

Even North Korea have an ICBM, there still one problem.

Lack of funds.

Posted by: Warpath 7 Mar 2013, 11:40

The Norks must have huge balls to do those attacks, If they (US and South K.) finally get pissed off from the attacks and war does break out we can expect most if not all North K. military forces COMPLETELY obliterated (that's if they don't run out of fuel) by combined U.S. and South K. airstrikes and cruise missile attacks and the subsequent ground invasion (that's if China doesn't intervene for the Norks) withing two weeks or within a month or two, but not after Seoul is destroyed, unfortunately.

Posted by: MARS 7 Mar 2013, 14:12

As I always say: NK's biggest deterrent against a foreign invasion is neither its oversized yet ill-equipped army nor its possible nuclear potential. It is the fact that neither SK, nor the US nor China would be willing to clean up the unprecedented humanitarian mess that'd be left in the wake of the invasion. Whoever ends up taking that burden - most likely SK - would end up economically crippled for decades because the country's infrastructure/industry is horrendously underdeveloped and the workforce is undereducated and politically indoctrinated to a point at which it wouldn't even be useful for cheap labour. That's the problem here: Unlike the East Germans in the former GDR, most North Koreans don't actually yearn for liberation. They live in a sealed off country where the state teaches them, from the cradle to the grave, that they're a master race, that their leader is a literal deity and that all foreigners are evil subhumans. The fact that no one wants to turn this utter mess of a nation into something remotely modern is the sole reason why NK still exists and gets away with all the bullshit it pulls off. The only thing that would ever change that is if they force everyone else's hand by mounting a literal invasion or nuking Seoul.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 8 Mar 2013, 9:31

So true.

The only thing we can hope for is mass information warfare.
Distribute facts and hope it works, and maybe in a few generations, it'll be something salvageable.

That or glass the place with napalm, either works.

Really, it's almost medieval. They have a "God on earth" for a leader, a ruling military, starving populace, rabid nationalism.

Seems like we're seeing a time capsule of what the world used to be like.

Posted by: SorataZ 9 Mar 2013, 10:40

Talking about "generations" is the exact problem. Everyone hoped the new boss would change the course. Well OF COURSE he won't, he's been teached from his birth since that he can do whatever the hell he wants. So hoping that somehow new generations of NK will embrace change it utter nonsense. As MARS said, unlike the people of the GDR who were trained to read between the lines and ignore all the bullshit the SED tried to spoon-feed them, NK people don't want that.

The sad sole solution is to take the entire population apart and spread it across the globe to make them realise how it is to live in a place where you don't have to hunt a sole rice packge down that fell from a truck.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 9 Mar 2013, 10:56

I know, but the one thing i'm trying to say. It's simply that we have to do either this or some other way of reintergrating NK into the world.
It's either this or razing the place down to the ground and starting again.

There's gotta be some way to turn them around, but we'll be long dead before that happens.

Posted by: Warpath 9 Mar 2013, 12:32

It can be changed for the better of the North K. people but we have to first destroy the government that controls them first, but we would have the problem of keeping the Nork population alive until modern integration begins so it MIGHT be able to change but we might not be alive to see it.

Posted by: GDIZOCOM 26 Mar 2013, 12:41

Bump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUknqqNd3-joIjWzf1Jn4oVQ&feature=player_embedded&v=9VQ7NjGeIRw

They also said they're ready strike Hawaii, SoKor, Guam and America with "long range equipment". The KPA says all their forces are "Class-A Ready".


I just want to ask myself one thing now: Do they have ANY idea what the hell they're getting themselves into? If this really happens, we'll see some action and sooner or later someone will make a video game about this (ex. Call of Duty 24: The Korean Peninsula). I know they're going to lose but then again if they lose I don't think anyone is willing to put a destroyed North Korea on their back.

Any thoughts about the video? I'd like to see how they stand up to US Aircraft. I'm not being a fanboy here, I just really want to see how the North fairs against the US in real-time to be honest

Posted by: MARS 26 Mar 2013, 12:48

I like how they 'simulated' their airborne invasion of Seoul or how some of the paratroopers drop into an ongoing infantry charge; kinda defeats the point of using paratroopers. The best part about this is the ultra-cheesy, vaguely 80s sounding music though.

Posted by: Warpath 26 Mar 2013, 14:56

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! That was freaking hilarious, I can already see US, SK and maybe Japanese jets blowing up Pyongyang. On a final note, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Posted by: GDIZOCOM 27 Mar 2013, 1:06

I find the part where the repeat an explosion over and over while displaying images of the US Navy and other enemy armies the most interesting

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 27 Mar 2013, 6:56

Who directed that? Michael Bay?

Seriously, over half of that video was explosions.

Posted by: Warpath 27 Mar 2013, 13:11

Looks like the Norks are going nuts again http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-cut-channels-south-war-may-break-090941398.html, can't they just sulk in a corner while we live on with our lives?

What do you guys think?

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 27 Mar 2013, 17:16

I thought they already had cut this line of contact with Seoul before. With each passing day they "cut" anything, next week they cut the carrier pigeons, the road "x", expulsion another "spy" infiltrated into the country and so on. This war was "warm" for a long time, now it has become "cold".

Posted by: MARS 27 Mar 2013, 20:06

From what I remember, all of these threatening gestures they're pulling now have happened before. It looks all dramatic but its part of their shtick. Now, if the Norks
actually go as far as closing down Kaesong, that -would- be a cause for concern but they probably wouldn't do that unless they really are going start an actual war.

Posted by: Pepo 28 Mar 2013, 15:40

Well NK are crazy but a nuclear attack would be a suicide.i doubt their missiles have the systems to be accurate(one of the hardest part of an icbm are the system to be accurate)the ussr have so many missiles so that in case one missile fail the target,other one will hit it.in case of nk they doesn't have enougth missiles ,so in case they fail ,they are doom.also nk only says the missiles that work;i bet that most of their missiles will fall to the ocean.also a scenario where usa is invaded have a 0.0000000001 % chances of being true

The video make me laugth

Posted by: Warpath 28 Mar 2013, 23:57

Heh, that depends IF those missiles even successfully launch and it just blows up in there faces, ahhh the hilarity of seeing them fail epically is worth it.

Posted by: Jester 29 Mar 2013, 10:58

I'm not calling for war or anything but something needs to be done about Kim Jong Un and his douche bag family. Seeing his missiles fail right in front of his eyes would be hilarious though.

Posted by: Серг 29 Mar 2013, 13:29

TBH, their long range rocket capacity is poor, but don't underestimate their low-mid range copies of SCUDlike "Nodong-2" missiles. And maybe they won't hit hit Guam and Hawaii, but they sure can make life miserable in Japan and SK. Today I found in news "that unofficial SK source spot heavy mechanised units movement around NK launch areas" and "B-2 Stealth bombers performed showcase of bombing runs on a nearby Korean island". Media-wise, this is NK's response on joint military operations between SK and USA, in return, SK and USA do this 'cause of NK underground nuke testings, which is a real headache and endless spiral of NK's blackmailing SK and USA to UN negotiations, and USA's inteference in this region since Korean War.

Posted by: Warpath 30 Mar 2013, 1:03

I just read the news article about the Nork plan to NUKE the US mainland and I gotta say, they are INSANE, though I doubt that they'll succeed nuking either Japan or SK is something like committing nation killing suicide because IF they do that then its likely that every nation (or most of 'em at least) on the planet would want to destroy the Kim regime, I wont be surprised if we see a coalition-like force crossing the DMZ if a 2nd Korean War erupts.

Posted by: Pepo 30 Mar 2013, 1:11

I have read some news and this is escalating fast.nk is going to be defeated ,but it seem they want to take sk and japan with then

Posted by: Warpath 30 Mar 2013, 2:00

Like I said, North K. initiating a second war would be suicide, though no one wants a war cuz who would want to take care of 23 or so million impoverished, brainwashed into loyalty and starving Norks, hell they might even start an insurgency and we all know what happened on Iraq.

Oh wait, North K. just declared a 'state of war' with the South "http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/29/world/asia/north-korea-us-threats/index.html".

Posted by: MARS 30 Mar 2013, 6:14

Technically speaking, the two Koreas have been in a 'state of war' since the 'end' of the first war in the 50s, since that one was never truly concluded in a proper legal sense.

Posted by: SorataZ 30 Mar 2013, 22:40

I am pretty sure that their missiles will literally blwo up in their own faces if they really start them because even if they successfully start, all this saber rattling will already have attracted American Aircraft Carriers just waiting to shot them down.

Posted by: Jester 30 Mar 2013, 23:49

God these people are so stupid. These empty threats are really irritating. A video of some sort should be produced showing the leaders of countries laughing at these childish threats and then sent to the door step of this absolute ass clown. Surely they must see that they are making themselves look stupidly foolish?

Posted by: Warpath 31 Mar 2013, 4:51

Hahahahahaha!! The only time they do care about looking stupid is that if they get an humiliatingly hilarious epic fail, but no, Kim Jong Un is to irrational and idiotic to care about that, hell, his father and grandfather are more competent than him, at least they know when to back down, if this keeps on going at the current path North Korea WILL be destroyed.

Posted by: Maxner12 31 Mar 2013, 10:01

The only problem that if their skill is over 9000, they might manage to make the entire Korea vanish from Earth.
And thus making Blizzard bankrupt.

Also, http://kimjongunlookingatthings.tumblr.com/
It's a hard job to be a dictator, don't you think?

Posted by: SorataZ 31 Mar 2013, 10:51

If only I was payed to say that things look nice... I would probably go insane beforehand

Posted by: MARS 31 Mar 2013, 10:52

For all the unintentional hilarity that undoubtably lies in the sheer absurdity of the Kim regime, we should not forget that NK's leadership would most likely be mad enough to sacrifice the bigger part of its impoverished, yet heavily indoctrinated population if it ever came to another war. We're talking about a total of about 24 million people, 1.1 million of whom are currently active in the KPA plus another 8.2 million in reserve plus another 3.5 million Worker-Peasant Red Guards PLUS an unknown number of brainwashed civilians who'd be throwing themselves into the fray with farming tools because their 'divine' leader told them that the Americans are coming to rape and eat them. In the same way that overestimating Saddam's Republican Guards turned out to be a hilarious mishap, underestimating the Norks might easily turn into a humanitarian tragedy. We should all keep that in mind before we crack too many jokes about how 'hilarious' of a curbstomp battle it'd be to see these people charge into a hail of cluster bombs and white phosphorus.

Posted by: Maxner12 31 Mar 2013, 11:32

Any army that would invade NK, would need a huge amount of men, UAVs, watercannons, tear gas, tazers (if you don't want to mow down the farmers charging at you with a tractor, else you could get very bad PR) besides the usual weaponry. Basically these fanatics would only stand down if the Dear Leader himself issues them the order (or not and they would remove the Dear Leader for losing his mind and would get a new Dear Leader).

Update:
After the stateofwarception, we moved to kind of the "all your base are belong to us" phase.
http://www.euronews.com/2013/03/31/north-korea-launches-economic-threat/

Posted by: MARS 31 Mar 2013, 11:36

This new threat is actually somewhat disturbing. Not the threat itself, but if they really were to do THAT, chances are the guy has actually lost his mind and is seriously going to launch an attack next. Shutting down Kaesong would significantly hurt NK's own economy, something a sane person would not do if he does not actually want to go to war afterwards. You wouldn't shoot your own economy in the knee for the sake of making an empty threat.

Posted by: Maxner12 31 Mar 2013, 11:49

What makes things worse of course, is that they could make some half-assed nuke. Even if they can't put it on a missile, they can still make a dirty bomb (kind of a makeshift suitcase nuke), that only needs to be smuggled into Seoul. Or even if they just detonate several of these on the border, they already achieved a catastrophe. And they are not the ones who care about the welfare of their people so they would send their troops without even waiting for the mushroom cloud to be gone.

By the way, did anyone else know that Dear Leader got educated in Switzerland?
From wikipedia:
"According to reports first published in Japanese newspapers, he went to school in Switzerland near Bern. First reports claimed he attended the private English-language "International School" in Gümligen near Bern under the name "Chol-pak" or "Pak-chol" from 1993 until 1998. He was described as shy, a good student who got along well with his classmates and was a basketball fan."

Posted by: Warpath 31 Mar 2013, 12:52

For some reason I can't see any other logic in this barring forcing the US and South Korea to back down militarily and lift the sanctions, the latter backing down being somewhat more unlikely.

Posted by: Pepo 1 Apr 2013, 0:15

A dirty bomb is a terror weapon,not a military one.in fact putting the radioactive materials in the suitcase leave less space to explosive,decreasing the explosion range and the people kill by it(you need A LOT of radiation to kill a person)

It seem that althrougth they are in a state of war,they havent do anything.they just want to provoke usa and sk to attack then so that their missiles can actually kill someone

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 1 Apr 2013, 11:49

If the NK close Kaesong in fact things probably will converge for war, the war that happened in the sequel will be unpredictable, however the chances of Kin Jong-un regime to succeed in a military campaign are reduced in comparison with Korea South and its allies, but we are talking about a Korea with thousands of tanks, artillery pieces and an huge infantry... not think that will be an easy war to the South and the USA.

This assertion does not seem to be very proper, what is the difference from a conventional weapon and a 'terrorist'? ... Perhaps it is more prudent to say that a 'dirty bomb' has an inferior technology in relation to conventional atomic bomb.

Posted by: General Merkel 1 Apr 2013, 12:10

It's a terror weapon in the sense that it's mostly psychological. The US/SK militaries certainly know a thing or two about fighting in an NBC environment, but a civilian population is very vulnerable to a radiological attack. As such, it becomes a fear weapon.

Posted by: Warpath 1 Apr 2013, 14:58

Using a dirty bomb might make things even worse that the is situation now, I'm sure the Norks aren't INSANE enough to do that unless they REALLY want to be bombed to the stone age

Hey, what are the odds of the medium and long ranged Nork missiles actually hitting their targets?

Posted by: General Merkel 1 Apr 2013, 15:23

Again, I wouldn't worry about their missiles. I'd worry about their special forces which are not only the largest in the world - not necessarily a quality statement - but also downright insane. These are the guys who have already performed several violent incursions into SK's territory and built tunnels underneath the DMZ in the past. If I were Kim, I wouldn't mount my bomb onto a crappy unreliable missile that'd inevitably be shot out of the sky by the US. I'd let my spec ops dress up as fishermen, put them and their bomb on a trawler, drive it up the Han river and hide the thing in some abandoned shack in Seoul until I need it.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 1 Apr 2013, 17:07

I fear the nuclear arsenal of the USA and its strategic weapons, they can cause much more damage than a 'dirty bomb' of North Korea, the question is who is more crazier - Obama or Kin? On one side a president who carries the burden of his nation already have used nuclear weapons against the civilian population in the past and 'have crossed the red line', the other a young cornered dictator who must assert themselves to sustain his regime, NK has little to lose and the USA needs to win with the South, in a hypothetically war between the two Koreas probably one of the two sides will tighten the 'button of judgment' in a desperate attitude already a war against the Communists may be prolonged, have consequences unpredictable in the field of geopolitics and caused numerous casualties to Seoul and its allies.

Posted by: Maxner12 1 Apr 2013, 17:20

The whole thing is rather like a lose-lose situation if it escalates. NK could achieve some victories in the beginning due to the sudden zerg rush through the border. Could even make use of their nuclear materials, plus their artillery could level a good part of Seoul. But after that, they basically get steamrolled by SK and USA and they can whine as much as they want, neither Russia or China wants to help them if it escalates into a war.
The other part of the problem here, that the whole country can go "YOU'LL NEVER WIN, AHAHAH" and detonate their half-assed nukes through the country, taking as much "foreign scum" with them as possible (meanwhile Dear Leader goes underground most likely, he is too damn concerned about his well-being to heroically sacrifice himself).
As a result, the victors get an irradiated country with non-existent economy, irradiated and hostile people, and possibly their own troops could get irradiated. And meanwhile SK could get harmed a lot as well.

I think it's sadly better for everyone not to continue the war (of course, above scenario is just one of the many possibilites, not to be taken as fact, it's just what could happen maybe).

Posted by: Jester 1 Apr 2013, 17:42

The North should just be completely and utterly ignored. If people just ignored it and left it alone then it would be like a spoiled child soon get bored and stop throwing around its laughable threats. Hopefully the Kim regime burns in a torrent of their own nuclear fire or at least have the fat dumb ass brought to justice for being such a idiotic douche bag.

Posted by: Kichō 1 Apr 2013, 18:53

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/03/28/2013032801198.html

A senior official from the DPRK visiting Xi'an says "there'll be no war" then goes on to say "so send as many tourists as possible" Love that attitude.

Posted by: Maxner12 1 Apr 2013, 19:12

Well, that's possibly the end of this "who's the man in the house' phase.

Edit: besides of the above, the latest update: http://www.euronews.com/2013/04/01/koreas-continue-to-trade-threats/

Posted by: Warpath 1 Apr 2013, 23:26

Jesus please don't tell me that nearly triggering a second Korean war was for the lulz.

Posted by: Miss Arle 2 Apr 2013, 1:21

This makes me think they're crazy enough to do anything BUT start an actual war, because everyone knows what direction that will head to.

Posted by: Warpath 2 Apr 2013, 6:24

Ahh yes, the complete and utter destruction of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, which, except for problem of dealing with the uncountable number of brainwashed into loyalty, starving AND angry Nork refugees, isn't a such bad thing to happen, it'll at least be one LESS despotic Rogue State in the world an at least some peace and quiet in Asia.

Posted by: MARS 2 Apr 2013, 7:03

Except for the possibility of millions of casualties, an entire generation of South Koreans scarred with PTSD and a failed state between China, Russia and SK that leaks refugees, weapons, chemical agents, nuclear assets, disenfranchised militaries and fugitive war criminals into all directions. In other words: Trade a decade-long, largely rhetorical conflict for a hotbed of political instability. Also, even if SK manages to survive the hypothetical war largely unscathed - assuming that Seoul, one of the most important economic centres in Asia, somehow doesn't get semi-levelled by massed artillery fire - its economy would go down the drain the instant they tried to take responsibility for NK's integration/reconstruction, which they'd have to do if they want to avoid the whole failed state thing described above. A typical rock/hard place dilemma.

Posted by: Maxner12 2 Apr 2013, 8:52

Excuse me guys, I was wrong, we are far from the end of the lulz.
"North Korea has announced plans to restart all nuclear facilities including its shuttered Yongbyon nuclear reactor (Reuters)"
and
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/02/us-korea-north-nuclear-urgent-idUSBRE93103X20130402

Posted by: Pepo 2 Apr 2013, 16:57

If israel was a neigthboard of korea they would have destroyed their facilities looong time ago.and if i was sk ,i would have do the same

Also i doubt sk will take nk.the people are now much more different ,specially in the north,where they are totally brainwashed and would put resistance to the south

Posted by: Maxner12 2 Apr 2013, 18:30

You throw a stone across the border and they might zerg rush you in mere hours. Not an option. Especially since the country is a black hole in terms of intelligence, noone really knows what's actually going on inside.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 2 Apr 2013, 23:09

North Korean Missile misfires, Hits Pyongyang.
Headlines just write themselves.

Posted by: Warpath 3 Apr 2013, 0:04

Wouldn't this lead to even more economy killing sanctions being imposed on the Norks.

Posted by: Comr4de 3 Apr 2013, 19:21

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/tue-april-2-2013-jonathan-sperber

Let's be real, he just wants to show the world he's wearing big boy pants.

Posted by: Maxner12 3 Apr 2013, 22:19

Latest developments: they actually shut down Kaesong http://www.euronews.com/2013/04/03/n-korea-pressures-south-by-shutting-key-industrial-zone/
Time to get a bit worried, maybe? Or just bs again

Posted by: Warpath 3 Apr 2013, 22:59

Wow, the idiot really did it, well the Norks can definitely say goodbye to their economy, and with the restart of their nuclear program we can expect even more sanctions against them, good job fucking up your nation Kim Fuck Un!

I'm not particularly worried, barring nukes and their Spec Ops the Nork Military ain't THAT much of a threat, yes they can devastate Seoul and kill thousands but aside from that not much else, this is just plain Nork bullshitery to force the world to give 'em what they want.

Posted by: MARS 4 Apr 2013, 6:18

This is going to be decisive. Apparently, they have locked down Kaesong on the past, but never permanently - obviously. They can keep this up until their economy starts to feel the loss. At that point, they'll either back down and de-escalate the situation to normal (by the standards of the Korean conflict) or they launch an attack.

Posted by: Pepo 4 Apr 2013, 6:28

I think they are chosing to attack,they have place a missile on their east coast to try to attack usa.if they launched it,they economic crisis would be a small problem

Posted by: Maxner12 4 Apr 2013, 6:41

Seems it's kind of a permanent lockdown, as they have asked the SK firms there to get lost. Also, durrhurr, we will mercilessly erase americuh from the map!
http://www.euronews.com/2013/04/03/north-korea-approves-nuclear-strike-on-us/
http://www.euronews.com/2013/04/04/north-korea-threatens-merciless-nuclear-strike-against-us/

Sidenote: the hell wants a war there, especially if it involves any kind of nuclear stuff. That would make the world even more paranoid and shift the countries towards police-states even more possibly.
Not to mention: if this turns into a full-scale war and NK gets leveled, you can bet that the black market from Russia and China will immediatly try to seize some assets in NK. And then who knows where those stuff ends up.

Posted by: Pepo 4 Apr 2013, 14:51

The north is going to star producing plutonium again in six months.i think they want to enter a M.A.D(mutual assure destrucion)state with the us so that they aren't attacked

Posted by: Warpath 4 Apr 2013, 14:56

Do the Norks REALLY want to be bombed to the stone age, there antagonizing EVERYBODY, even the Chinese and Ruskies, there only allies!

On a side question; how well maintained is there equipment?

Posted by: Pepo 4 Apr 2013, 16:50

they have a huge army and lots of rifles,but they are older than the ones of sk(basically ak-47 and akm,a small number of ak-74(local copy)).their tanks are old and lack of advance targeting systems(their most advance tank is the t-62,and the most numerus chinese t-55 copies).their airforce is no match to their rivals and their navy too,usually focus on small boats and submarines.most of their material is old and not really good.their main strentgh are their numbers,but the south can stop then with their army.also usa can take out their forces from the sky and support the south in ground combat

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 5 Apr 2013, 11:48

Good lord, it's really starting.

Well, expect panicing from anyone smart enough to read news and stupid enough to overreact.

Posted by: SorataZ 5 Apr 2013, 17:53

Well, they have apparently shipped a missile to their east coast and are preparing to launch it. No doubt it will be shot down. What I am ever so slightly afraid of is that it might be a decoy and a black operation already went along to transport a nuke by ship somewhere else.

Posted by: Maxner12 5 Apr 2013, 22:08

Well, that escalated quickly: http://www.euronews.com/2013/04/05/n-korea-calls-for-foreign-embassy-evacuations/
I still think this is all about "who's da man in da house" rather than actually gearing up to start a war.

Posted by: Warpath 5 Apr 2013, 22:59

This could still be typical Nork BS, though considering they loaded 2 nukes missiles, (link: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/05/world/asia/koreas-tensions/index.html) I'm hoping they don't go apeshit insane.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 6 Apr 2013, 0:52

whelp, they're about to try and shoot the US.

yeah, this is gonna be good.

Posted by: Warpath 6 Apr 2013, 1:29

Yeah, they ain't gonna do it.... maybe, if they do I can think of a modified quote that can sum up the outcome.

"I don't know what weapons the North Koreans use in the second Korean war, but I know that they will use sticks and stones if there is a third."

Guess where the quote originally came from.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 6 Apr 2013, 1:42

not really sure.

Albert einstein?

Posted by: Warpath 6 Apr 2013, 2:17

Bingo!

Posted by: SorataZ 6 Apr 2013, 8:33

Though it's originally about World War 3 and 4, respectively.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 6 Apr 2013, 11:29

Probably the missiles are being prepared that will be part of another round of tests.

The NK will test for the first time a missile loaded with a nuclear warhead?

Posted by: Maxner12 6 Apr 2013, 12:06

Wise men said that they are actually years away to put anything remotely nuclear on a missile.

Also, important since it seems like noone knew this in this thread. North-Korea doesn't give a shit about international treaties. Why is this important now? They hardly care about the laws about use of chemical weapons. And they have a sizable stock of chemical and biological weapons, ready to use.

Also, here's a complete coverage for those, who have might have missed something of this whole high-school drama: http://www.euronews.com/tag/north-korea-nuclear-war-threats/

Posted by: MARS 6 Apr 2013, 12:31

Good thing you mentioned that. I'm not sure if I said it in this thread or on ModDB a while back but it is assumed that NK has all the necessary equipment to produce anything from mustard gas to VX. And yes, if it ever came to another war, I am absolutely certain that they would use that.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 6 Apr 2013, 12:31

The problem is that the "experts" little know about current nuclear capacity of NK, the country is closed to the world and conducts its projects in secret, although it seems inconceivable that the Communists are able to develop a nuclear warhead with your scarce resources financial and technological, however nobody knows exactly to what degree of Russian and Chinese are involved in all this, there are indications that they would be actively involved in recent years with the initiatives nuclear and aerospace of Pyongyang.

One can not dismiss the possibility of the regime have an small amount of warheads miniaturized to a rocket.

Posted by: Maxner12 6 Apr 2013, 12:43

Even if they have nukes fit for the rockets, they still have a problem with delivering them. Only lately they could send something into orbit. Furthermore, okay, they could send a ballistic missile into space, but they still have problems with ensuring said missile doesn't get reduced into scrap when entering back into the atmosphere.

Also, this nuke drama is more like cock-comparing, the actual danger lies in their fanatic army, the artillery aimed at Seoul and the amount of chemical weapons that could turn the entire land into wastelands (seen in WW1 as well). Now chemical weapons are less of a problem after the attack, since the yankees and the s-koreans can equip themselves with protective and cleansing gear probably, but good luck with protecting the civilian population.

Forgot to mention: yes, NK is a black hole when it comes to intelligence gathering.

Posted by: Pepo 6 Apr 2013, 17:04

Chemical weapons are wind dependant.it can easily go back into your army.this happen in ww1.also if they use then,i could expect a total margination from their ally

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 7 Apr 2013, 1:53

There's also the defenses against ICBMs that the US has on it's shores. It's more likely to stop a simple missile like the ones the NKs have than not.

Posted by: Knjaz. 7 Apr 2013, 9:27

That missile would do little to no damage if it's armed with conventional warhead. But would provoke a "proper" response.

if it's armed with WMD one - well, preemptive and unprovoked attack one of top-tier nuclear powers with WMDs, especially nuking it, is a great way to get glassed. USA would be required to answer with nukes as well - otherwise it'd nullify psychological aspect of their nuclear deterrent. It won't be required to literally glass it, ofc, but the answer has to be on ~same level at least, due to reasons above.

Posted by: Warpath 7 Apr 2013, 11:22

So to put it simply; Norks launch nukes, EVERY nuclear-armed state will retaliate with nukes as well, turning North Korea to our world's closets equivalent of the Fallout-verse's wastelands, minus the horrible mutants and Deathclaws.

Posted by: Maxner12 7 Apr 2013, 11:39

Too bad radiation and other fallout related toxics and stuff doesn't know borders (means the south wouldn't really like to have it's close neighbour nuked cause they would get a share of the medicine).

Posted by: Warpath 7 Apr 2013, 11:48

Don't forget China.

Posted by: Knjaz. 7 Apr 2013, 12:45

huh? I don't think any other nuclear power's arsenals would get involved into this - including NATO ones. It's also somewhat unlikely USA would refer to a massive nuclear missile strike, counter-value one (i.e., completely glassing it's population centers) - while such an option would be possible, potential consequences and loss/gain ratio wouldn't be optimal, taking into account small square of NC, and a proximity of world's top economies. Doesn't mean it'd be just "eye for an eye", in the amount of nukes. Also depends on the damage hypothetical NC nuke would inflict. If it hits unpopulated area, that's one thing - if it hits middle of LA - that's a whole different one.

But in case of first nuclear strike, they will have to answer similarly. Otherwise, as I mentioned above, they would show that they do not have the political will to go nuclear in case of nuclear strike on themselves - in this case, potential consequences and risks are too devastating.


And something tells me, that NK leaders know what would happen if they'd do it (regardless of their nuclear/delivery capability, which I'm, personally, not too "optimistic" about).

Posted by: Alias 7 Apr 2013, 13:19

Anyone who seriously thinks that North Korea would go into a ground war, let alone launch missiles is so unbelievably mistaken.

Kim Jong Un, as nutty as he may be, has experienced (and to quite a degree, still experiences) Western-level quality-of-life and it is highly unlikely that he would want that to change. All of the dick-waving that is currently going on is the exact same thing the past North Korean governments have done, it's just sabre rattling to reinforce his power to his people, and to get the Western powers to bend to their will. It's not like he has any motivation for it other than maintaining his own power.

The exact same thing has happened countless times before.

By the way, can we stop with the 'Nork' rubbish? Seriously, you're a at a computer - it really isn't that hard to type North Korean. I'm pretty sure we're not in the 1950s anymore.

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 7 Apr 2013, 13:41

In fact Kim Jong Un will do anything to avoid an open war on the Korean peninsula, he knows that one way or another it meant the end of the dictatorship of his family on NK, however with increasing escalation of tensions in region the probability of a misunderstood act result in a conflict became large, this seems to be the biggest preoccupation of China, Russia, USA, Japan and SK.

If Kim aims to undermine the geopolitical interests of their enemies and increase his power of influence he is being successful - the U.S. announced that they will cancel the test of Minuteman III intercontinental missile which was scheduled for next week - ie the deterrent power of North Korea already reached global proportions and has become the biggest asset of the Kim's regime.

Posted by: MARS 7 Apr 2013, 14:01

Good point. Call it a silly assumption, but maybe the guy has been so royally pissed off as of late because the most recent sanctions might also have affected his (presumably already difficult) access to foreign luxuries. For all the propaganda he may feed to his people, I could imagine this guy having a thing for conspicuous consumption behind the scenes like most eccentric dictators. Just look at him; he most likely IS the single most overfed person IN North Korea and one would assume that a living 'deity' like him would be used to a lifestyle of fancy delicacies, expensive beverages, Cuban cigars or whatever. He's never been taught to act as a rational, responsible ruler, so I could totally imagine that his political judgement would be somewhat affected by the fact that the guy is simply pissed off because he hasn't had any of his favourite luxuries lately. That, plus the fact that he hasn't had his obligatory 'prove yourself in front of daddy's old friends by pissing off the international community' moment yet which is probably the main reason for this current escalation.

Posted by: Pepo 7 Apr 2013, 14:10

Remenber that his older brother was suppose to be the leader,until he went to disneyland japan.it is very possible that kim have little time to get prepare of being head of nk ,making bad moves for his country

Posted by: Warpath 7 Apr 2013, 14:30

So Kim is throwing a tantrum because the US took away his expensive foods and drinks? There has got to be another Kim family member that's MORE competent that him, I can accept him threatening South K. to get the approval of the military but for not having his afternoon Cognac....

Posted by: MARS 7 Apr 2013, 17:05

Josef Stalin wrote sappy poetry and drew sketches of naked men in his free time. Muammar Gaddhafi lived in a Bedouin tent when he travelled and had his own all-female bodyguard detachment. Hell, Kim Jong Il himself was an avid basketball fan, had a preference for foreign luxury products and even ordered his henchmen to abduct a South Korean movie director to make a Godzilla knockoff for him. The notion that his son would throw a temporary nuclear shit-fit over not getting any more of that expensive whiskey, caviar, cigars or whatever the hell he's into due to enforced embargoes doesn't seem unbelievable to me at all. Of course we'll never know for sure, but dictators like these are exactly the kind of people who would let their odd quirks and petty anger have an effect on their work life.

Posted by: Pepo 7 Apr 2013, 20:02

Well in the scenario where nk is nuclear destroyed,kim is going to be FAR away from korea,maybe in china or in a middle eastern country

Posted by: MARS 7 Apr 2013, 20:45

Even though China certainly approves of NK acting as a buffer between it and the US forces in SK, I am quite certain that it would not provide shelter to Kim if it ever came to a war there. Maybe sweep in and secure whatever remains of NK as a controllable puppet state before the US/SK manage to secure the entirety of the country, but Kim is pretty much a liability and a constant source of embarrassment for the Chinese at this point.

Posted by: Pepo 7 Apr 2013, 22:35

There are many possibilities that they give shelter to him,without the us knowing about it.remenber that pakistan was supposly an us ally and bil laden was living there,near a city

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 8 Apr 2013, 4:38

As i said, it's the fear factor that's the big problem.
If they fire one, all the idiots in the country will spaz out and start building bomb shelters and crap.

Posted by: Maxner12 9 Apr 2013, 15:08

Latest bs update: http://www.euronews.com/2013/04/09/north-korea-warns-foreigners-to-evacuate-the-south/
The priorities of the regime (even in terms of propaganda) are nice anyways. If it came to a war, foreigners would be their last thing to mind.

Posted by: Pepo 9 Apr 2013, 18:25

They only have done this to try that other countries doesn't attack then when they star the war against sk

Posted by: Warpath 9 Apr 2013, 23:31

Uh huh, their not even going to war, aside from the missile deployment and Kaesong's closing to the south most of 'em threats are just bullshit.

Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 11 Apr 2013, 15:36

If they're planning to invade they wouldn't ring so many bells
they'd just zerg rush SK.
Bah this is just kim jon whateveritisthistime's coming of age ceremony, pissing off the global community

Posted by: __CrUsHeR 12 Apr 2013, 13:43

Today the North American secretary of state John Kerry said that NK will not be accepted as a nuclear power and this is exactly the content of the article I read recently.

The article:

NUCLEAR - Reject the plow wielding the sword

Leonam dos Santos Guimarães
PhD in engineering and member
Standing Advisory Group on Nuclear Energy in
Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA)


Five countries are internationally recognized as "states with nuclear weapons". They have these weapons right granted by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT): the U.S., UK, France, China and Russia. Meanwhile, other countries have these weapons "in fact" and not "of right."

Three of them, are not signatories to the NPT, formally declared and demonstrated in practice by testing nuclear possess them: India, Pakistan and North Korea. Although he never directly stated or shown, there seems no doubt that Israel, which is not a signatory of the NPT, has also. South Africa, when he had not joined the NPT, had also, but decided to disassemble them voluntarily. Ukraine also stored nuclear weapons on its territory, but they were fully repatriated to Russia by agreement after the demise of the USSR. Today, Iran is accused by the international community to be seeking to obtain them, which is being treated as a major threat to world peace.

But what said about the five European countries that have nuclear weapons on their territory of American origin "undeclared", including Belgium, Germany, Turkey, Holland and Italy? Do they not also constitute a threat? The existence of nuclear weapons in these five countries, including operating procedures and means for their jobs, is formally recognized by NATO.

The U.S. has some 480 B61 thermonuclear weapons in these five "non-state nuclear weapon" by the NPT and develop a program of modernization of these weapons. Its existence is ignored by the IAEA, which is the technical organism that have international UN delegation to monitor compliance with the commitments made by countries acceding to the NPT. Among these five "undeclared nuclear states", Germany is the most armed, The German Air Force has three bases that can store up to 150 weapons and operate German aircraft "Tornado", capable of launching nuclear warheads.

The intended installation and accumulation of tactical weapons B61 in these five "non-state nuclear weapon"? What are the potential targets of these weapons? Given its technical operating, they could only be used against targets in Russia and Eastern Europe or the Middle East and North Africa.

This reality implies many contradictions, typical cases of "two weights, two measures". The first is that while some of these same European countries nuclear weapon "actually" accuse Iran of seeking them, they themselves are able to attack him with those same weapons. The second is that three of these five countries, Germany, Italy and Belgium, decided to abandon the peaceful use of nuclear energy is that electricity generation under the justification of "high risk", but none decided to return the weapons to the U.S., as did the Ukraine to Russia. Does nuclear plants are at greater risk than the "atomic bombs"? The political class and society in these countries seem to think so.

Germany is the most emblematic case of this contradiction: is not a nuclear power "in right" in the NPT, but stocks nuclear weapons manufactured in the U.S. and its own air force is capable of delivering them. The company EADS, controlled by the powerful Daimler Group is the supplier for France's M51 ballistic missile, capable of launching nuclear warheads from submarines and even the German shipyard HDW is the supplier for Israel submarines capable of launching missiles with nuclear weapons.

At the same time, Germany has decided to decommission all its nuclear power generation park in the wake of the Fukushima accident. This has meant an increase in the generation of greenhouse gases, affecting the entire world, and a high cost to the country, to be borne by the German society. Reject the plowand embrace the sword.


NOTE: Text translated from Portuguese into English by me with the help of Google, sure there are some errors in translation, however must be understandable.
------------------------

Really are "two weights and two measures," such as requiring that the NK has no nuclear weapons if the USA has them at odds with the NPT? It really is something to think about...

Posted by: Pepo 12 Apr 2013, 17:20

Crusher:i like that the last paragraph of the article.nuclear energy is normally see has far worst than thermal energy,but it isn't.
Anyway i doubt that these articles take into account that the leader from germany is not crazy has the one in nk.also these weapons are lf the nato,so i suppose they will need a permision to launch then

Posted by: MARS 12 Apr 2013, 20:00

This is all part of a NATO policy called 'nuclear sharing'. Back during the Cold War, the US gave Germany, Italy, Turkey, Belgium and the Netherlands the permission to use a number of US-made nukes in the event of a war in order to include allies with no nuclear programme of their own in the NATO framework of deterrence. German nuclear policies are odd to say the least. We've always had a rather rampant anti-nuclear lobby and an ongoing debate over the permanent storage of nuclear waste. Several years ago, our government decided to shut down all nuclear plants over the following years until our current government pulled a complete U-turn on the issue, only to do another U-turn after the events of Fukushima. Can't say I agree with this whole line of reasoning, but that's a debate for another day.

Posted by: tgn89 16 Apr 2013, 20:26

Theres another thing when the US goes to war with em norks WE will also have to thats what ya get when you have the most "powerfull" country at your side on this fuckin planet on the other hand though i wouldnt mind (if it happens of course) to go kick kim jong buums ass what a fuck he is .
Funny thing is after the 1.korean war turks and south koreans are considered brothers well cant say thats wrong considering that i see a lot of koreans even a restaurant and i got plenty friends with them sorry if i went of topic here

On topic: NK is really playing ball here not only are they treathning İts neighbour with nukes plus also threatining İts own people i dont get it whats with this bullshit so what they prefer democrasy over commies.huh the yankees are the enemy of the koreans bullshit i tell you .and whats gotten kim jong un so much does he think he is the keeper of the koreans and did he even have his own nation to be the "true" koreans son of a bitch