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Tier Differences On Each Country, Can be about age?
Loluthinks
post 12 Jan 2017, 13:17
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This is another thing i try to understand, maybe is maded at purpose by the devs or maybe is a mislead, but i noticed the game progretion in a match is divided on 3 stages: early stage is when you are in tier 1, you have access to tier 1 units, usually at this moment people is only focusing on gathering resources, capturing buldings and exploring map, maybe one or 2 skirmish across the map with infantry but thats all, then you buy some buildings and you are in mid stage of the game, you have access to tier 2 units, more powerful, but not the most, you start to attack often, you expand your limits, try to increase economy, add some upgrades to your units, and other, usually at this stage, people focuse more on attack the units who gather resources of your enemies, and this is something i been seeing recently, i has been playing old command and conquer games from the first decade, and until now all them have the same in common, if you f*ck the economy of your enemy, they cant just do nothing about you later on the game, if you put defenses alround resource area, limit their acces, or just by killing their units who gather it, it will slow them, maybe enough for they dont be able to keep up with you and eventually lose the match, i know probably this fact is well knowed by most player, but what make this game in particular different is that it have a secondary way of income, buildings who can gather resources, althouth not at same speed than primary, but enough for dont just lose all hope, after this then you have late game, tier 3, when you have access to all your units, by this time you probably are 5 star rank general, you have access to the most powerful units and powers, now you only gather the most powerful units and attack the base of your enemy until no one stands. but then i discover not all countries follow this premise, 2 on particular have a "tier 4" stage and this is why i maked this post, lets start what i consider tiers:

Tier 1: you have access to few infantry units, alround 3, 4 vehicles, and the rank 1 and 2 general powers, few upgrades
Tier 2: you have access to 60-80% of your infantry, 6-8 vehicles, and the rank 3 and 4 general powers, most pugrades, starting of secondary income.
Tier 3: you have access to all your units, all your buildings, all your general powers, all upgrades, you now depend more of your secondary income, because primary is almost depleted.


the 2 countries i talk about is ECA and Russia, and this is probably because they are the 2 factions that only appear on this game because the mod, russia in particular only have a tank that for me is tier 4, i talk about sentinel, why, because this tank break almost all rules, it not only make insane damage, but also it is able to protect their allies, and not happy with it, it can also shot down most air units as well, yes is slow, yes is expensive, but 2-4 of them with all your other vehicles going to your base is almost a defeat for you, the arena system is just a huge advantage, the other ECA is related alround protocols, pandora protocol is just ok, but manticore and valkyrie are just too op, even if the faction at all is unbalanced and in some way weaker than others, more focused on defense, even if you can buy only 1 manticore and 3 units of valkyrie, is enough to roam the field and change the tide of the match, the sentinel and the protocols for me belong to a new tier:

Tier 4, is when in late game your surpass the limits beyond the other factions and bring to the field advantages they just dont have and then pee on their faces.

You cant just compare the paladin (best tank of USA) with a sentinel, even if is cost lest, 4 sentinels will have too much trouble to deal with a single sentinel, and this is not the best way to use your units, you force your enemy to spam more units to deal with yours, even a paladin have troubles with a golem, yes i know russia have the best tanks of the game, but it doesnt mean usa cant have some too even if i dont like it too much as faction i always like a balanced game, about the protocols, they maybe are balanced in the way you need to wait until late game to have them, and only if you unlock their general power, but as i said, if you manage to do, then you open your tier 4, while your enemies will be always at tier 3 no matter what.

Another thing i noticed was, even if the game is always the same in every stage, it can be compared to other games like for example rise of nations, in that game you start in stoneage, and then you finish in current 2000's, so if you delay too much, you will watch fighing f-16s and commandos vs the flintstones and the croods with their clubs, so unbalanced, of course the game is different to C&C, but it meaned you are forced to rush ages for dont fall behind your enemies, you can say the same happen with rise of the reds although a lot way less, if you dont advance trought tiers quickly, you basically end with units from tier 1 (units from 90's), or tier 2 (units from 2000's), while tier 3 are units from currently age, and now i say tier 4, sentinel tank, and protocols can appear in future, (units from 2020 and beyond).

What i want to say with all this, maybe it was already suggested, i know is not allowed suggest units or other, but i know most people is talking about some balance on the mod, could devs can think in give their tier 4 to usa, china and gla as well?, not nerf russia or eca, but just buff the other 3 who fall behind on this aspect and only in this one.

Your comments and oppinion will be too much appreciate.

This post has been edited by Loluthinks: 12 Jan 2017, 13:28


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Black Raven
post 12 Jan 2017, 13:50
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By your logic, black bear in 1.87 will be tier 5 tongue.gif If even usual sentinels OP and they tier 4 literally .
And no, all nations have only 3 tiers . Just use bonus of each nation .
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Skitt
post 12 Jan 2017, 13:51
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its
T0
T1
T2

governed by a tech building
T1 progression
usa - detention camp/drone control center
eca - solar reactor
china - prop center
russia - weapons bunker
gla - black market

T2 progression
usa - strat center
china - breeder reactor
eca - research facility
gla - chemical lab
russia - industrial plant

there is no 4th tier.
but there is diferent stages.
early/mid/late/vlate/s-late (s-late being very very rare to hit in pvp)
governed by eco and game time


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Mizo
post 12 Jan 2017, 14:03
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Also, there will not be any tweaks in the tier system whatsoever.
It's not something you'd want to mess with since it can easily backfire.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 12 Jan 2017, 14:04


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Loluthinks
post 12 Jan 2017, 14:17
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I know is what is called core of the game, but then the game will not be simply related to dont be able your opponent be at tier 2 instead of just fight with him/her, in real life this doesnt matter, but in a game this limits the tactics you can make, for example i was reading in another post about usa cant allow itself to lose some units early game or this means a surely defeat, this limit all you can do, even if in 2.0 you will be more focused to a single aspect of the army, for be balance, all nations need to have the same oportunities in every stage of game using their own tactics as factions, the diversity need to be related about the units and the correct use of them, that is about the war, you need to be a cyborg to micromanage perfectly and dont make a single mistake handling your economy while you keep fighting on the map, also revealing map, capturing, etc, is not about change the tier progretion, is fine how it is, is about give the same oportunities to each faction while they are able to keep playing in their distint ways, how to achieve this is the 1 million dollar question.


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Mizo
post 12 Jan 2017, 14:32
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It's not about core, it's about design. We can't temper build.times of tier structures in that way because it's more convinient to balance factions if they all had the same timings of them getting their upgrades and stronger units.
( the only exception at the moment is income rates, in which ECA gets 10% - 20% slower primary income rate compared to other factions).

For example you can never know for sure if early game is too strong because of an earlier access to buggies through faster build black markets or because of an actual imbalance in unit statistics. This is an example and canapply for any faction.

Having everyone on the starting ground gives it an easier time to see what's outright broken at a particular stage of the game , without having to factor on the timing differences in tier progression.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 12 Jan 2017, 14:35


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Loluthinks
post 12 Jan 2017, 14:56
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QUOTE (Mizo @ 12 Jan 2017, 14:32) *
It's not about core, it's about design. We can't temper build.times of tier structures in that way because it's more convinient to balance factions if they all had the same timings of them getting their upgrades and stronger units.
( the only exception at the moment is income rates, in which ECA gets 10% - 20% slower primary income rate compared to other factions).

For example you can never know for sure if early game is too strong because of an earlier access to buggies through faster build black markets or because of an actual imbalance in unit statistics. This is an example and canapply for any faction.

Having everyone on the starting ground gives it an easier time to see what's outright broken at a particular stage of the game , without having to factor on the timing differences in tier progression.


So you are saying after 2.0, if this factors be determined, then you will have a way to handle this imperfections and balance the game in a way there will not be such problems again?


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Mizo
post 12 Jan 2017, 15:20
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Probably not, if 2.0's reach a good balance state ( which is really hard to achieve), it'd be best to not mess with it further and call it done.


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X1Destroy
post 12 Jan 2017, 15:37
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The only faction that actually have something to do with this problem is GLA, but they are meant to be weak at this stage unless it's team games.

It's your fault if you let Russia get to rank 5, built 5 WFs and cranked out veteran Sentinels, Golems and Blackbear and then destroyed you. You're supposed to finish the battle quickly with all those advantage in mobility and numbers, not camp around and wait.

China have no problems with super late game, and ECA are supposed to fight back at this stage. USA only have problems when the player reached his limit or have been hit too hard in the economy part before. But it can beat late game factions. It have enough tools for that.

As for sentinels spam..............Terror drones and Termites anyone?

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 12 Jan 2017, 15:39


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Loluthinks
post 12 Jan 2017, 16:02
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QUOTE (Mizo @ 12 Jan 2017, 15:20) *
Probably not, if 2.0's reach a good balance state ( which is really hard to achieve), it'd be best to not mess with it further and call it done.

subsequent patches will be released after 2.0?. balance ones?

This post has been edited by Loluthinks: 12 Jan 2017, 16:12


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Loluthinks
post 12 Jan 2017, 16:12
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QUOTE (X1Destroy @ 12 Jan 2017, 15:37) *
The only faction that actually have something to do with this problem is GLA, but they are meant to be weak at this stage unless it's team games.

It's your fault if you let Russia get to rank 5, built 5 WFs and cranked out veteran Sentinels, Golems and Blackbear and then destroyed you. You're supposed to finish the battle quickly with all those advantage in mobility and numbers, not camp around and wait.

China have no problems with super late game, and ECA are supposed to fight back at this stage. USA only have problems when the player reached his limit or have been hit too hard in the economy part before. But it can beat late game factions. It have enough tools for that.

As for sentinels spam..............Terror drones and Termites anyone?

in a good match you most of the time get to rank 5, if you keep making small fights alround map for building/supplies control, and usa is the faction with less vehicles, even gla have more, i know they have air superiority, for this reason i think General Bradley will be the less picked one when 2.0 came out, GLA is even more versatile with its vehicles than usa, even if they are the most weak of all game, this will allow players to country Bradley with a general pick whose tanks are far superior, so in the moment 2.0 come out, the game may become like an arpg like dota or lol when the picks are the most important, because you can just counter a general with another one, of course all this is based in at least both players or more have same level, if is that not, then of course will be much worse.


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Mizo
post 12 Jan 2017, 16:19
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Assuming things like that is too early.

15 different playstyles.....yeah there's going to be some cases where General A has Advantage over General B who Have Advantage of General C who Had advantage of General A but that's not gonna be as overplayed as say , Zerohour's Toxin General Completely hard countering Inantry General.

There won't be cases of Generals hardcountering each other. This isn't a MOBA. To top it all off, you will not be able to determine what general the player picks prior to the match, and every faction will have a capable general against another opposing general ( who'd naturally be strong against the other 2 options).


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Loluthinks
post 12 Jan 2017, 16:29
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QUOTE (Mizo @ 12 Jan 2017, 16:19) *
Assuming things like that is too early.

15 different playstyles.....yeah there's going to be some cases where General A has Advantage over General B who Have Advantage of General C who Had advantage of General A but that's not gonna be as overplayed as say , Zerohour's Toxin General Completely hard countering Inantry General.

There won't be cases of Generals hardcountering each other. This isn't a MOBA. To top it all off, you will not be able to determine what general the player picks prior to the match, and every faction will have a capable general against another opposing general ( who'd naturally be strong against the other 2 options).

So 2.0 will emphatize at least go 2vs2, and implement a rock-paper-sissors thing, when you and your ally ally to counter your own weakneses and to defeat the 3rd option general you cant beat by yourself


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Mizo
post 12 Jan 2017, 16:59
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No no no , it will be like this :

Every faction will atleast have 1 out of the 3 generals that is strong against another faction ( not 1 General but just default faction as a whole) , but will have a disadvantage against (Usually a subverse ) general of said faction, to then have a harder time against one of the other 2 generals avaliable.

Say you have Faction A that has Generals A1 , A2, and A3......A1 will have a good advantage against Faction B, but General B3 will have an advantage against General A1 but will have a harder time aganst either A2 or A3.

2v2s Become more complex. , won't be properly determined until practical tests happen.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 12 Jan 2017, 17:00


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Loluthinks
post 12 Jan 2017, 17:02
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i undestand now, but im not sure in 100% about it, is like you say, we need test firsts, but i know in some cases lets say 8% of the time, can happen a rock-papper-sccissors thing.


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(USA)Bruce
post 12 Jan 2017, 17:21
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God I love you OP,

Loluthinks If I didnt know that you were genuine I'd think you were the best troll ever.
You either take this game very very seriously or dont at all, check the GAME part.

Either way its really fun(ny) to see what you have in store for us everyday.

Never change buddy, Never change


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Loluthinks
post 12 Jan 2017, 17:38
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QUOTE ((USA)Bruce @ 12 Jan 2017, 17:21) *
God I love you OP,

Loluthinks If I didnt know that you were genuine I'd think you were the best troll ever.
You either take this game very very seriously or dont at all, check the GAME part.

Either way its really fun(ny) to see what you have in store for us everyday.

Never change buddy, Never change

I dint participate in the forum since a year ago, my pc was damaged in a electrical thing and currently i reinstalled the first decade on a laptop, and playing again, i do really take the game seriously, this game even if was not maded by westwood is one of the best C&C ever created, i was sad when i heared EA cancelled the sequel, but i was glad after when i discover they wanted to put it like C&C4 tiberian twlight, what for me is the worst of all C&C games, anyway, i really do like this mod a lot, it just changed the game to the way it suppose to be, along with mental omega for yuri's revenge it can be called almost perfect, maybe i know i anoy a little the devs with my things, but how they can achieve true greatness if people dont be challenged often, maybe i am the one who support then the most. tongue.gif


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Shalom
post 12 Jan 2017, 20:59
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QUOTE (Mizo @ 12 Jan 2017, 15:32) *
It's not about core, it's about design. We can't temper build.times of tier structures in that way because it's more convinient to balance factions if they all had the same timings of them getting their upgrades and stronger units.
( the only exception at the moment is income rates, in which ECA gets 10% - 20% slower primary income rate compared to other factions).

For example you can never know for sure if early game is too strong because of an earlier access to buggies through faster build black markets or because of an actual imbalance in unit statistics. This is an example and canapply for any faction.

Having everyone on the starting ground gives it an easier time to see what's outright broken at a particular stage of the game , without having to factor on the timing differences in tier progression.


This actually makes a lot of sense, it didn't cross my mind that having equal tier progression between factions will make balancing easier. You only have to focus on the units themselves this way, it seems like a sound and practical approach.
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nikitazero678
post 1 Feb 2017, 8:06
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The tier system in RotR is good in my opinion, there's no need to change it.

About the tiers, I usually refer to T0 as "Basic", T1 as "Standard" and T2 as "Advanced" to easily distinguish between each other.
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