Rise of the Reds Release: A New Beginning Options

[Warpath]

One more thing, in the real world, Egypt and Sudan have ties to the UK, Sudan is actually applying into the commonwealth of nations. Ingame, I see civilians clashing with the Chinese. Perhaps spice up the lore with a Civilian/Chinese/ECA conflict?

Considering that the ECA is still in debt to China they'll probably let this one go.

[SpiralSpectre]

^Plus the Chinese wouldn't wanna make trouble with the ECA right after they (along with the US) just got their arse handed down by Russia in the shell map battle.

[MARS]

Right. The ECA is actually on okay terms with China in the sense that there've been no major affronts or outright hostilities between them and since Europe is actually doing quit well
before Russia invades, chances are they've been repaying their debts regularly as well. For all we know, the repayment plan may be quite lenient and last over a century if necessary.

[Warpath]

Ok, so did the Chinese government help or support them?

This post has been edited by Warpath: 5 Jun 2012, 12:32

[MARS]

Of course. The Chinese basically helped the Europeans rebuild their economies after the GLA attack, as well as providing military manpower to maintain public order in cooperation with whoever took over control of the various countries after they broke out of the EU.

[aeroth]

So if russia invades EU, China's interests in the region are dangered.
If EU is crushed no more repay for china
This could lead to a 2 fronts war for russia ?

[MARS]

Seems like a logical cause and effect chain, but we're yet to reveal whether this is how it happens. It would certainly be a fair reason for them to enter the war at some point.

[GeneralCamo]

Nuclear Weapons: Why aren't they used by other factions? (In Lore)

In the REAL world, Russia, the USA, and Europe also have some pretty nuclear arsenals. In Game, we can assume the Chinese took the ECA's in their war against the GLA. But what about the USA? And Russia?

[MARS]

Actually...The Russians still have the most sizeable nuclear arsenal, but they don't use them on a large scale because a.) that would be counter-productive if they want to capture territory b.) they don't want to give the US and China any funny ideas c.) anti-ballistic missile systems are in place, including the US Particle Cannons and d.) they're not interested in total extermination. Thus, nukes are limited to tactical weapons that will become available to Zhukov after a pivotal turn of events in the story.

The Chinese don't need any further discussions: They've got nukes, they used them on the GLA, but now, they care too much about their global image to use them on Russia. Plus, they're not in the war yet. The United States still have their own nuclear weapons, but on a tactical level, they use Particle Cannons for immediate, uninterceptable strikes because they wouldn't trigger a nuclear response. The ECA's nuclear arsenals belong to Britain and France and are relatively small by comparison to the other factions. The problem with them is two-fold: An attack on a Russian city would probably trigger a nuclear response while a tactical strike would basically force them to detonate nukes on their own soil. There'd be no reason for the Chinese to take them away from them during the GLA war either.

[The_Hunter]

The russians get nukes in form of tactical ICBM's altho they will be exclusively availible to General Zhukov (tactical balistics)
There will also be others but we will not reveal any details on those just yet

Ninja'd

[Alex1guy]

The russians get nukes in form of tactical ICBM's altho they will be exclusively availible to General Zhukov (tactical balistics)
There will also be others but we will not reveal any details on those just yet

Ninja'd

Oh this sounds interesting

[Warpath]

Actually...The Russians still have the most sizeable nuclear arsenal, but they don't use them on a large scale because a.) that would be counter-productive if they want to capture territory b.) they don't want to give the US and China any funny ideas c.) anti-ballistic missile systems are in place, including the US Particle Cannons and d.) they're not interested in total extermination. Thus, nukes are limited to tactical weapons that will become available to Zhukov after a pivotal turn of events in the story.

The Chinese don't need any further discussions: They've got nukes, they used them on the GLA, but now, they care too much about their global image to use them on Russia. Plus, they're not in the war yet. The United States still have their own nuclear weapons, but on a tactical level, they use Particle Cannons for immediate, uninterceptable strikes because they wouldn't trigger a nuclear response. The ECA's nuclear arsenals belong to Britain and France and are relatively small by comparison to the other factions. The problem with them is two-fold: An attack on a Russian city would probably trigger a nuclear response while a tactical strike would basically force them to detonate nukes on their own soil. There'd be no reason for the Chinese to take them away from them during the GLA war either.

About the US nuclear arsenal, if the Particle Cannons acts as their missile defense system and tactical strike, won't it make the US nuclear missiles a trump card in case of a nuclear attack?

[Alex1guy]

About the US nuclear arsenal, if the Particle Cannons acts as their missile defense system and tactical strike, won't it make the US nuclear missiles a trump card in case of a nuclear attack?

Basically they are untouchable in a sense because they can use them without fear of massive nuclear retaliation. But I think the US government would still have a stigma against using nuclear weapons, even if their Chinese allies don't.

[Warpath]

Basically they are untouchable in a sense because they can use them without fear of massive nuclear retaliation. But I think the US government would still have a stigma against using nuclear weapons, even if their Chinese allies don't.

I don't think the new US government and military will have that stigma.

[MARS]

What makes you think so? The Americans are facing tough times after Zero Hour. Tough times that could either make them outright fascist or make them a lot more humble and responsible once they're back on track. Whether it's going to be the first or the second is yet to be revealed since there hasn't been much lore on the Americans yet. Just because they could doesn't mean they have to exploit their nuclear superiority for the mere sake of making some ham-fisted 'gnaaarrr, evil capital-fascist America' statement. Chances are they would only deploy nuclear weapons in a first-use scenario if their own homeland was being massively invaded. Plus, the time between the end of ZH in 2028 and the outbreak of the European War in 2045 is a total of 17 years which is enough time for at least four presidential elections, assuming that none of the presidents outright abolishes democracy which, even at this point, would be kinda out of nowhere.

[Shiro]

It doesn't work this way regardless because the Constitution is untouchable; and the US military vows on it/freedom for that matter, not a specific organisation or person. In other words, trying to abolish freedom and democracy -> civil war.

[Warpath]

It doesn't work this way regardless because the Constitution is untouchable; and the US military vows on it/freedom for that matter, not a specific organisation or person. In other words, trying to abolish freedom and democracy -> civil war.

True, unless if a few "radical" government and military officials launches a coup against the current government.

[Alex1guy]

True, unless if a few "radical" government and military officials launches a coup against the current government.

So yeah civil war

[Warpath]

So yeah civil war

Not if the military and most of the US population supports the coup.

[Alex1guy]

Not if the military and most of the US population supports the coup.

I guess, but people in the US and other nations rarely agree on anything at the best of times.

[Knjaz.]

Basically they are untouchable in a sense because they can use them without fear of massive nuclear retaliation. But I think the US government would still have a stigma against using nuclear weapons, even if their Chinese allies don't.

If they're untouchable, they wouldn't hesitate wiping out their enemies off the map once and for all. It'd literally, first time in the history of humanity, allow one nation to dominate Earth without any, even potential, opposition. Looking at the USA doctrine and way of actions in last 100 years, that's something they'd go for, 100%.
Saying that their religion or ideology or anything else prevents them from doing so... well, I'd say that's something that can change overnight.

At same time, Russia wouldn't invade Europe under such conditions, and would go absolutely crazy about restoring the M.A.D. environment and pushing it's research to counter USA anti-ABM capabilities, no matter what. Because it'd literally face a total destruction at any given moment.

Thing is, if we follow RL path, Russia so far is most advanced country in terms of anti-ABM capabilities and also possess the biggest tactical nuclear arsenal, USA is most advanced in ABM capabilities (although the gap with Russian ABM technology based on the use of missile technology is really small), and China falls waaaaaaaaay behind Russia and USA in both quantity and quality of their nuclear arms.

So far behind that even if they'd want, they wouldn't be able to close the gap in 10 years, especially technological one.

I'm drawing this knowledge from the actual logic under which Russian military planners were operating. Don't have access to anything closed, of course,, but if you closely watch things during few years and speak with people, you start to understand the way they see matters of national security pretty well.

In case there will be a real threat that something is going to nullify Russian nuclear potential in nearest future, a first strike, before the nuclear potential will be nullified, is guaranteed. After all the necessary diplomatic and not quite diplomatic warnings, of course, like blowing up multiple nukes in high atmosphere as a demonstration of intentions. I know it may sound a bit shocking for the civilian folks, but that's the way things are.
Military logic dictates that in case the adversary (in current times - USA) creating a real threat of nullifying Russian nuclear potential (not gonna happen in next 20-30 years even with current tech development, but still. In an unimaginable case that that happens) there're 2 possible scenarios.

*We do nothing and they strike first, when our retaliatory strike won't be able to deal unacceptable damage to the adversary.
*We strike first, when our arsenal will be able to deal unacceptable damage to the enemy, and do the "counter-military" (контр-силовой, in russian designation) strike to reduce the amount of stuff that we receive in the end.

In both scenarios, we suffer great losses, but in second scenario those losses are less due to counter-military strike, and our adversary(-ies) are kinda dead. While in first scenario, they erase us from the map of the world, while being relatively unharmed.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 6 Jun 2012, 13:32

[Warpath]

If they're untouchable, they wouldn't hesitate wiping out their enemies off the map once and for all. It'd literally, first time in the history of humanity, allow one nation to dominate Earth without any, even potential, opposition. Looking at the USA doctrine and way of actions in last 100 years, that's something they'd go for, 100%.
Saying that their religion or ideology or anything else prevents them from doing so... well, I'd say that's something that can change overnight.

They are NOT untouchable, with the Russians vast stockpile of nukes and the fact that their is no such this as a full proof missile shield at least some of them will reach their targets.

At same time, Russia wouldn't invade Europe under such conditions, and would go absolutely crazy about restoring the M.A.D. environment and pushing it's research to counter USA anti-ABM capabilities, no matter what. Because it'd literally face a total destruction at any given moment.

Since the US and ECA are no longer allies the Russians can and will invade, though there is a possibility that they are researching ways to counter the US Missile defense.

This post has been edited by Warpath: 6 Jun 2012, 14:01

[MARS]

If they're untouchable, they wouldn't hesitate wiping out their enemies off the map once and for all. It'd literally, first time in the history of humanity, allow one nation to dominate Earth without any, even potential, opposition. Looking at the USA doctrine and way of actions in last 100 years, that's something they'd go for, 100%.
Saying that their religion or ideology or anything else prevents them from doing so... well, I'd say that's something that can change overnight.

Actually, there has been an earlier occurence in history during which the US pretty much HAD total nuclear supremacy over the rest of the world. This was during the late 40s/50s, when the American nuclear arsenal grew exponentially while the Soviet one was still in the earliest stages. And unlike the Soviets, the Americans would have had plenty of heavy strategic bombers to deliver the bombs to any important Russian city of their choice. To top it all of, this was during the 1950s, i.e. the time when McCarthyism was in full swing and rabid 'red scare' anti-communism was at an all time high......And yet, not a single nuke was dropped even though the Americans could have ended the Soviets right there. USA-criticism or not, most people, including American leaders, generally don't want to go down in history as the ones who launched a total genocide against an enemy who couldn't even do shit to defend themselves. No one would ever cheer for a boxing champion if all he did was beat a blind man to death.

At same time, Russia wouldn't invade Europe under such conditions, and would go absolutely crazy about restoring the M.A.D. environment and pushing it's research to counter USA anti-ABM capabilities, no matter what. Because it'd literally face a total destruction at any given moment.

Lore-wise, ABM defences are actually somewhat accounted for. The US obviously have their Particle Cannon. The Russians -accuse- the Europeans that their Solaris can be a threat to their nukes as well and chances are the Americans, regardless of the current relantions between them and the Europeans, would use their Particle Cannons to intercept Russian nukes -even- if their targets are in Europe, simply because of the off-chance that some of them -might- also be heading for the States. Thus, there's no reason for the Russians to launch their weapons at this time. At the same time, however, the Russians do actually have a defence in the form of their Blackout Nodes which essentially create black spots on the map that cannot be penetrated by superweapons or gen-powers in a game between human players. In story-terms, this probably translates to some kind of ultra jamming system that would make any weapon headed for Russia uncontrollable, untargetable, unable to initiate the detonation etc. via electronic trickery. The only faction - aside from the GLA, obviously - that isn't specifically stated to have ABM capabilities is China, but who knows what kinda stuff we might give them in-lore at some point.

Naturally, we cannot guarantee that the -entirety- of our universe holds up to total professional scrutiny, but the basic premise of this mod (i.e. Russia invades) has been around since its inception a decade ago and these are all things that you have to accept as a given, suspension of disbelief and all, because otherwise there wouldn't be a plot.

[SpiralSpectre]

Man, I am falling behind in this convo. :S

Anyway what about the all the faction's, specially the Russian's, anti satellite ballistics? Solaris is one of Russia's headaches... didn't they try improving their capabilities so they could blast it down from space if necessary? They could have a similar attitude about America's Particle Cannon, their relation was never that good and recently they went through a war against US and China.

[MARS]

Right. The Blackout system is in place to ensure that none of these orbital weapons (and by extension, ballistic missiles) can harm them, but in order to actually
take them down from orbit...well, there will be some implication in-lore later on. ASAT technologies do exist, but their use would obviously count as an act of war.