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SWR Productions Forum _ Frontline News _ Rise of the Reds Update: Arena Mode Explained
Posted by: XAttus 21 Jun 2014, 21:38
Greetings again!
In today's update I'm going to reveal a bit more details about the mechanics of gameplay as well as two renders of exclusive units that will appear in the arenas of this game mode.
First of all, as you probably know game modes in C&C Generals do not exactly work as in most other games where they are chosen with a simple setting or dropdown list. In this case we are talking about specially designed and scripted maps that alter quite a few gameplay elements while leaving the core game and mod files unchanged. The most notable change is of course that you do not need to build you production buildings, depending on which faction you choose you'll have them already at your disposal from the very beginning of the game. However, you cannot build new production buildings at all so once your enemy destroys your war factory for example, you lose the ability to produce land units for the rest of the game.
And what about economy?
On arena maps you can earn cash in 3 different ways. The first and most basic source is a passive income that you get during the entire game and without any limitations. This is of course good but not great at all so you'll need to go out and make a living by... killing! Destroying enemy units will grant you money too, regardless of which faction you are. The third way is the most common supply gathering with a little twist.. There are no supply docks in the base. You will find one large set of supplies usually in the center of the map or other neutral areas that can be easily contested. Be sure to fight for them and take them or your enemy will do so first.
Even if your opponents still decide to stay in their base just to prevent you from turning their military hardware into money for your own use, the battle will never stop until one side is completely defeated. Thanks to the continuous waves of AI controlled militia forces you will always hear the sound of tank cannons (or worse) in the outer battlegrounds.
In addition to basic militia tanks these waves will sometimes contain special combat units designed for different roles:
The Militia Artillery is a small but dangerous weapon to face. It's weak armor is compensated by the fact that it doesn't really need to come close in order to cause destruction. Armed with a long range 155mm cannon, it can lob HE shells over great distances. They do not appear often but when they do be sure to eliminate them quickly, as ignoring them is one of the biggest mistake one can make.
When standard barrels are not enough to accomplish objectives, it's time to call in the big guns. The Militia Heavy Tank is a rare but feared sight on the battlefield. Its primary armament are twin 130mm AT guns, designed to punch trough any unlucky armoured target that presents itself. As if this wouldn't be enough, it's also armed with 2 sets of missile pods that act as fire support when the cannons are on reload. Lastly, the machinegun turret on the top is a threat not only to infantry, but airborne targets as well. All of this is packaged in heavy armor and paired with surprisingly good mobility, making the Heavy Tank a serious threat even for well prepared defenses. It also has to be stated that these beasts perform their best when they are supported by additional units with anti air and long range capabilities.
And that's not all!
Additionally to these new renders I'd also like to present 5 maps that are now complete and will house our stream games tomorrow:
Twin Hills (2v2)
The very first map on which this game mode was born, it gradually transformed from a simple test map to a detailed and fully functional state. Features a large base area with straight lanes connecting the two sides. A set of two Celebrus turrets guard the base entrance as well as the lanes further outside. A single supply dock is located in the middle. Capturing an oil refinery grants 20% cost reduction, this bonus only stacks with russian mass production and the refineries are not destroyable.
Floodway (2v2)
(credits go to Xofolez for letting me use his base map)
An urban map with medium sized base areas and a lot of buildings to garrison. It contains all the features of TwinHills, including the refineries and the supply dock in the middle.
Dividing Mountain (2v2)
Hills, forests and mountains form this map's landscape with bases located diagonally in corners. The creep lane splits in two just outside the first base then rejoins again at the other. A supply dock is located in the top right corner while a blockade fortress with flak bunkers form an ideal defense position near the beach. This map also has refineries with the same attributes as the others.
Black Forest (2v2)
(credits go to Starwaker and Xofolez for letting me use the base map)
A map with an unusual layout that differs from every other, on Black Forest one lane goes through the center while 2 other one-way lanes run around the mountains on both sides. The only resistance these lanes face is a single Celebrus turret. While the forces in the middle have to go through each other to reach the turrets, the side has to be defended by the players alone, as the turret without support on it's own is only able to hold the line for a limited time. A lot of small supply crates can be found in middle forest. Additionally, each player starts with a reinforcement pad but these can be destroyed.
Harbor
(credits to BLCK)
An experimental 1v1 version, this map should be familiar to those who have the ROTR map pack. Part of the docks are dry in order to provide additional space for movement. The bases are fortified with flak bunkers against direct air assaults, a supply dock is located in the middle while a single undestroyable refinery on each side provides the same 20% cost reduction just like on the other maps.
I hope you enjoyed this extensive and long update, also feel free to check out tomorrow's stream promo video if you haven't already!
See you all tomorrow!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rise-of-the-Reds/346701942043959 http://www.moddb.com/mods/rise-of-the-redshttp://www.twitch.tv/pauljongejanshttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvJeeOZsZN_NG42LAGO8aXA
Posted by: Mr.Kim 21 Jun 2014, 22:12
Can't wait new stream tomorrow 
Hopefully not miss it.
Posted by: DanPaladin12 21 Jun 2014, 22:24
Will there be an AI for this gamemode, or will it just be PvP?
Posted by: Admiral*Alex 22 Jun 2014, 0:02
According to my dated knowledge, Arena is only PvP. Those AI controlled units are AI controlled scripts. Last I knew.
P.S. I can't wait to see a more polished Arena game, can't wait.
Posted by: Alex1guy 22 Jun 2014, 0:02
This looks amazingly cool. As above, is there PvE or just PvP?
Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 22 Jun 2014, 0:14
And now I'm worried that China will be OP because idiotic massed enemy tanks will die in the millions to their massive aoes.
Posted by: XAttus 22 Jun 2014, 0:17
From the first update...
Guys, please read the text first - you might find answers to your questions without having to ask them.
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 22 Jun 2014, 0:20
Any chance we'll get those units purchasable in a recycled-old War Factory model as a Tech Building?
*hint hint*
That was indeed the case in the 1.802 versions but I don't expect that to be the case with the artillery and the other new units added.
Posted by: Admiral*Alex 22 Jun 2014, 0:27
Frank question, but are there going to be air creeps units (sorry force of habit to call these by there original name) in the future?
Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 22 Jun 2014, 1:02
Unless they're nerfing into the ground, I doubt it's enough to deal with the inferno cannons. (Which have a huge aoe, and would logically be very good against creeps that have no strategy beyond attack move.)
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 22 Jun 2014, 1:13
GLA has Grads, USA has guided Tomahawks very adequate at least in the old version, ECA has those buffed mortars with clusters and the Pandora protocol which can really lock games at least in the old version, and Mstas are being changed to be better against large groups while Inferno is going to require an upgrade so unless your proposal is to remove China from the game I don't see how this minor, completely theoretical (since you haven't played the map yet) balance problem can be solved, if it should be attempted at all.
Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 22 Jun 2014, 1:23
A group of infernos has the same blast radius as a Pandora, Grads and Mortars, while large-aoe, don't really come close to it.
Posted by: Karpet 22 Jun 2014, 1:41
The Nod artillery! Also, I've seen that similar heavy tank design from O:F (never used it though)... Looks pretty cool here as well. Did that come from any real life design or no?
Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 22 Jun 2014, 3:34
Well, the Nod OP-tillery was based off the M110 Self-Propelled Howitzer.
And no, the Militia Heavy tank (How does a militia come up with that thing?) is based on another mod, Generation X's US heavy tank.
Posted by: Karpet 22 Jun 2014, 4:05
Well I know what it's based off of.
In the first game they were really OP v. infantry and structures but they had paper armor.
In Tib Sun they were very OP though.
Posted by: XAttus 22 Jun 2014, 8:38
Once again, the model of the HeavyTank belong to SWR, they were just cool enough to let GenX and ZHU use it.... not the other way around. It's originally made by IPS.
Posted by: Zeke 22 Jun 2014, 9:25
Not sure if this is some kind of joke, but IPS originally made the tank for ZHU. GenX and ROTR got it after, and definitely not the other way around.
Posted by: XAttus 22 Jun 2014, 9:37
owell then, I should take some C&C modding history lessons. From what I understand it is now in SWR's hands now since IPS is in SWR and the two other mods are discontinued.
I wasn't meant to joke around or anything.... -.-
/moveson
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 22 Jun 2014, 9:53
Mortars don't and they have insane range to compensate. (With that datalink stuff) Use Grads more often.
Posted by: IPS 22 Jun 2014, 10:13
It's not like SWR owns the Eisenhower(the original name of the tank) now or something, we just use it, like other mods do as well.
I made the model available to some mods and it will remain this way.
And yes I designed it back in the days for ZHU.
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 22 Jun 2014, 10:36
That tank is used everywhere anyway. Won't hurt to use it here as well.
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 22 Jun 2014, 13:03
Very cool these Militia units - mainly Heavy Tank - I always liked this model since ZHU well as artillerys from China and GLA that never saw the light of day; IPS should really have a good stock units stored that will certainly serve well in the future for the ROTR's factions. 
One question: the Militia has a mini-lore to explain it?
Posted by: Karpet 22 Jun 2014, 13:09
^ A militia goes crazy and builds a dual barreled, rocket armed tank with a cannon on top 
If it does have a mini-lore, I'd like to hear it as well.
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 22 Jun 2014, 13:15
If it does have a mini-lore, I'd like to hear it as well.
It should be easy to write something: most likely a sectarian army - in the mold of current ISIS for example - that unlike the GLA which has units based on scraps, stole relatively new vehicles to form an extremist army that advocates any extremist cause.
Posted by: Generalcamo 22 Jun 2014, 14:22
Or they are surplus units given out by the United States by anyone willing to pay, just like their navy. Probably left over from some of the crazier experiments and units by the generals (Shockwave's Ironside, Townes, and Alexander comes to mind) that never really got into the actual battlefield.
Or, alternatively, these are training simulations for the Generals of each faction, we are just playing the part of the AI.
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 22 Jun 2014, 14:40
Hmmm, MARS commented in the chat stream that does not have a story behind the Militia, just a disconnected faction.
Posted by: tgn89 22 Jun 2014, 17:22
one another thing are we gonna see some militia infantry and aircraft or maybe even some ships aswell or is this it ? it would be more awesome if we would see those because if it stays like this then...well...meh
Posted by: XAttus 22 Jun 2014, 18:52
Why exactly would you like to see infantry and ships? From a game design perspective what purpose would these units have? what role would they fulfill?
You know, it's easy to say - add this because its cool and otherwise it's meh... but if you are going to suggest it then provide explanation about the purpose those units would serve...
Posted by: HoneyBee 22 Jun 2014, 19:54
Militia Infantry could serve as meat-meatshields. That is, meatshields of the meatshields.
Posted by: Generalcamo 22 Jun 2014, 21:51
Infantry is easy. Just use the unused UN infantry, since they look as generic as you can possibly get.
Ships on the other hand.. they are harder. While XAttus could just use ROTR's generic navy, you would need to have rivers and whatnot that may get in the way of the map...
Posted by: XAttus 22 Jun 2014, 23:00
The main problem I have with infantry is that they screw up the pathfinding of the tanks even more. It's already enough that some of them freeze randomly and forget what they are supposed to do. Moreover, the tanks themselves are not good against infantry (they are professional roadkillers though but it goes without saying that infantry in waves have to be uncrushable) so they would just sit there and shoot and that looks really odd.
Don't tell me that I didn't try.. I made some experiments with infantry, but the conclusion is that it causes a lot of unpleasant problems in exchange for looking good next to the tanks... and I dont like that trade.
So for now the idea is rejected unless Hunter and I come up with a solution to make infantry viable in a way that it won't break the game.
Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 23 Jun 2014, 1:05
On a serious note, if it weren't a reskin of the rather advanced US Eisenhower, I could probably just whip up an explanation right about now.
For example, the Basilisk (T28/T95 GMC) would be a much simpler sell,
Posted by: HoneyBee 23 Jun 2014, 2:20
Fair enough.
(Though I was mostly joking, as infantry is doomed anyway.)
Posted by: Bergzak 23 Jun 2014, 3:09
May I please see a close-up of the Russian Airfield for the Arena mode?
Also, I doubt China will be OP here: They have only 1 Factory, 1 Barracks and 1 Air Field. 
Also, I think I have something like lore for the Militia:
2 mercenary forces, both rivals (just like RED and BLU of TF2). They may once have been part of a bigger mercenary group (hence, why they share the same technology), but for some reason, they split into two factions and became extremely bitter rivals. Both mercenary forces are available in strategic locations in the world (preferably battlegrounds in the Russo-European war), and have been paid to fight for teams before the battle.
Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 23 Jun 2014, 6:36
One COULD take the Miltia to be standard grunts of the armed forces for the RF, ECA, USA, and PRC, while you represent the special ops or something like that.
Posted by: tgn89 23 Jun 2014, 9:44
No im not saying just add it because its cool i was just suggesting it. Because of a more gradual way. You know instead of just militia tanks right from the start we could start with infantry,jeeps,APCs,tanks,arty,HT hell maybe even ships. Or choppers
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 23 Jun 2014, 10:10
Yeah a Basilisk reskin would have been better. But hey, we could always get a Militia Assault Gun. *hint hint*
Posted by: DELETED MEMBER 23 Jun 2014, 17:49
i honestly don't see how a 100 years old prototype gun carriage will be easy to sell than a model from other mod, to me it sounds as silly at people suggesting a Maus for the ECA
besides, i dont think they will get any lore outside of being generic looking unit for genericstan
having some light anti air/infantry and a light chopper could be nice through
Posted by: SorataZ 23 Jun 2014, 18:32
You can reasonably expect an infantry unit since hey, UN Soldiers are still in the files. Not too sure about airforce though.
Posted by: TornadoADV 23 Jun 2014, 20:49
Milita for 6th playable RotR faction.
Posted by: Mr.Kim 23 Jun 2014, 21:52
Nope, Militia is not playable faction and those units are not build able.
Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 24 Jun 2014, 7:34
besides, i dont think they will get any lore outside of being generic looking unit for genericstan
having some light anti air/infantry and a light chopper could be nice through
Because, it doesn't have to be the T28/95, it's a fairly generic shape, simple enough to reasonably assume a common militia would have made it, while stillin intimidating.
On the other hand, this eisenhower reskin is still somewhat hi-tech and a common militia coming up with it is a bit confusing.
Posted by: XAttus 24 Jun 2014, 9:35
I don't get why the lore matters so much, I place gameplay and usability on a much higher level than thinking about how could a small neutral underfunded army come up with a tank like that. They stole it from somewhere... gave it a good paintjob and now use it for their own cause.. end of story 
We needed a tank that can take hits and hits back hard, and this model is perfect for that while also looking scary.
Posted by: DELETED MEMBER 24 Jun 2014, 12:50
On the other hand, this eisenhower reskin is still somewhat hi-tech and a common militia coming up with it is a bit confusing.
uh, no, not at all, the t28 has a very unique shape, far away from generic slopped box with a cannon like the Hetzer or the jagdmammuth
i think the problem is than you have this perception of the eisenhower as some hi-tech vehicle, it maybe in the mod it comes from, but as its core is another mammoth homenage
futher more for what we know it may as well be a US made tank designed to militia specifications instead of domestic use
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 24 Jun 2014, 13:10
I find interesting the Heavy Tank: simple and compact aesthetically, as a slightly more modern Mammoth Tank.
What seems to be slightly off on 'context Militia' is the proper Militia Tank; I understand that these units may not deserve special attention as they are simply and basic additions to the 'main gameplay' but the Militia Tank is very basic and ugly at the same time, almost equal to the Battlemaster, very different compared with the Artillery and Heavy Tank in terms of quality; I would like to see the old GLA Centurion Tank for example - or any other basic GLA tank in Shockwave - than this poor unit abandoned amid the General's lines.
NOTE: as I imagined the Arena is a real battlefield with many explosions and destruction; Great way to play multiplayer. 
Posted by: Mike Oxlong 24 Jun 2014, 13:13
How do i download this?
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 24 Jun 2014, 13:18
What seems to be slightly off on 'context Militia' is the proper Militia Tank; I understand that these units may not deserve special attention as they are simply and basic additions to the 'main gameplay' but the Militia Tank is very basic and ugly at the same time, almost equal to the Battlemaster, very different compared with the Artillery and Heavy Tank in terms of quality; I would like to see the old GLA Centurion Tank for example than this poor unit abandoned amid the General's lines.
Militia Tanks are leftovers from ZH if I am not mistaken while these models are custom made.
Posted by: Bergzak 24 Jun 2014, 13:19
What seems to be slightly off on 'context Militia' is the proper Militia Tank; I understand that these units may not deserve special attention as they are simply and basic additions to the 'main gameplay' but the Militia Tank is very basic and ugly at the same time, almost equal to the Battlemaster, very different compared with the Artillery and Heavy Tank in terms of quality; I would like to see the old GLA Centurion Tank for example than this poor unit abandoned amid the General's lines.
This.
The GLA Centurion Scorpion was well made, it'd be a shame if it is put to waste.
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 24 Jun 2014, 13:20
In fact; this seems to have been minimally edited and received a new skin.
Posted by: The_Hunter 24 Jun 2014, 13:21
Nope only thing different about the ZH militia tank and the ones we have now is purely technical and functional.
Vissualy it has not been altered at all.
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 24 Jun 2014, 13:23
Vissualy it has not been altered at all.
I believed that only the spotlight was new on the model.
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 24 Jun 2014, 13:48
Centurion sounds like a good idea though. But without the rocket of course.
Posted by: Serialkillerwhale 24 Jun 2014, 13:51
i think the problem is than you have this perception of the eisenhower as some hi-tech vehicle, it maybe in the mod it comes from, but as its core is another mammoth homenage
futher more for what we know it may as well be a US made tank designed to militia specifications instead of domestic use
It's fairly generic, I know it's not a sloped rock, but the Basilisk is a pretty generic look, large mass of armor with extended treads and a bigass gun, beyond the treads, there's nothing very distinctive, the T28's real appearance is a bit more squashed, and the front's almost flat. The Baslisk is more round, and has that MG turret.
The Eisenhower has that Oscillating turret-style raised rear end, automated rocket pods, and fully enclosed and likely automated MG.
It just requires more engineering and fancy parts than the T28-style Basilisk model would have.
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 24 Jun 2014, 13:52
Another simple suggestion related to aesthetics would be adding some civil structure as a 'Tank Hangar' or 'Tunnel' at the point where the Militia vehicles arise, because is very strange and annoying to see tank respawning 'out of nothing' - the structure should be indestructible.
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 24 Jun 2014, 14:03
And untargetable too. There are already civillian hangars for this. You're on a roll mate.
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 24 Jun 2014, 14:13
In fact there is a civil structure that fits perfectly this.
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 24 Jun 2014, 15:39
I've been thinking of a map for the new Arena mode, so tell me what you think about this map:
Divided Desert - 4 player (8 players with AI)
Good concept?
Posted by: Generalcamo 24 Jun 2014, 15:44
Bridge + AI = Lag and instability
Posted by: __CrUsHeR 24 Jun 2014, 15:47
The AI only follow the indicated arrows battling only in the center of the map; does not cross the bridge (under it).
Posted by: DELETED MEMBER 24 Jun 2014, 16:13
The Eisenhower has that Oscillating turret-style raised rear end, automated rocket pods, and fully enclosed and likely automated MG.
It just requires more engineering and fancy parts than the T28-style Basilisk model would have.
well, ge, of course you can claim a F1 car is very generic while making a VW bettle appear very unique if you are going to ignore what makes the F1 unique and exagerate things in the bettle too, i mean man, the F1 car goes on four wheels! thats as generic as you can get!
No, the T28/Basilisk superstructure sillouete is very unique, the ballshapped gun mantlet is pretty rare too, plus you already said the treads, the basilisk turret is also the T29 turret with two armor plates, the basilisk even has the little crane at the end of the superstructure too
and no, the raised rear end is not very unique, is very common in tanks and the eisenhower only has the size exagerated, "oscillating turret" is a different thing and unrelated, also the whole "rocket pods and machine gun are automated" are unbased, for what we know they can as well be just be remoted controlled (and is not like remoted controled guns are very strange in the RotR world, only ECA seems to use manned machineguns in they vehicles compared to the other superpowers)
the whole engineering heavy depends of who is making the whole thing, as i said, you are assuming the militia country what ever it is, is making the whole thing instead of importing it
but you already set up your mind about waiting the basilisk, so this will be my last post in the whole matter
Posted by: Admiral*Alex 24 Jun 2014, 19:21
Divided Desert - 4 player (8 players with AI)
Good concept?
Good Concept ,but I made some changes. What do you think?
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 25 Jun 2014, 17:09
And where are the creeps supposed to pass? Unless that bridge somehow leads to the ground? They can't go under the supply dock...
Posted by: Jam Hacker 26 Jun 2014, 8:03
i understand that all the units with militia prefix would be operated by AI. I wonder if there is any exclusive units in the arena mode for players, like epic units or some overpowering heroes?
Posted by: XAttus 26 Jun 2014, 9:26
Get a heroic sentinel... there is your epic unit
Jokes aside...epic bosses or neutrals are not planned, and at this point I don't really know how to get them working either. (never seen a neutral AI controlled unit attacking anyone in MP before).
Currently I'm working together with the rest of the testing team to resolve balance issues and fix bugs. That's plenty for now. Also inb4 some "smart guy" here throws a tantrum that the mod release is being delayed by this... The main reason I'm in the team is this game mode so it's going to be me who develops it while SWR's core devs are working on the mod content. While the new assets were not made by me, almost all of them existed before and only required minor amounts of time and effort to implement.
Posted by: Karpet 26 Jun 2014, 14:48
Easy. If attacked or something is done to it (like intruding on its area), the player type switches from neutral to a type that is enemies with everything (the unit is transferred to this enemy faction).
Posted by: DarkyPwnz 26 Jun 2014, 23:25
So go do it and maybe they'll put you in charge instead of XAttus.
Posted by: Karpet 26 Jun 2014, 23:59
I don't have access to his maps, and I'm putting it here so he doesn't have to send me it and then I have to send it back, extending the time needed, so I post it here.
And anyways, there's something called time. Most of the time, I am not on my RotR computer.
Posted by: Composite armour 27 Jun 2014, 8:51
Wouldn't a Manticore be an epic unit?
Or will ECA not have access to those?
Posted by: XAttus 27 Jun 2014, 9:26
Karpet, I'd be really interested to see how you'd do it. You don't need my maps nor any other excuses, just make a testmap and do it on that. That's how I do most of my experiments as well, I don't edit the main maps anymore.
Posted by: Karpet 27 Jun 2014, 15:17
I'll do it when I'm able to get on my RotR computer, but it most likely would go this way:
If unit x is attacked OR player x enters area
THEN transfer unit to Player X
player x = real players and creeps
Player X = mutual hostility to other players
The only part I'm not sure about is, is there a way for the real players to trigger the script?
Posted by: Crackerjack17 30 Jun 2014, 7:36
Man, I didn't expect this to become so popular. When i was testing it, it was just a normal Forest with 2 straight paths leading to each side's base and now tons of maps to choose from. 
Posted by: bebeodend 2 Apr 2015, 8:50
Are we gonna see theese maps released now?
or did people just toss away the idea?
Posted by: Shockwavelover84 4 Apr 2015, 19:27
I'm guessing it's not in 1.85?
Probably will be reserved for 2.0 then.
Posted by: Mr.Kim 4 Apr 2015, 19:45
The Arena Mode is exclusive in 1.85 and it will be coming soon.
Posted by: bebeodend 11 Apr 2015, 19:02
Oh well guess the release of the already made and played maps for 1.85 is gonna be released under the same terms as 1.85 "soon™"
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