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Posted by: The_Hunter 27 May 2012, 15:20

Hello Comrades!
You have all waited for this for a long time and perhaps longer than we should have let you wait but all of that won't matter right now because we are finally done with our new release!
There isn't much to say really, we have a lot of goodies prepared for all of you including new fluff, a trailer and of course the releases itself.
Anyway, I will stop blabbering now and let you all have a look at the good stuff



Version 1.7 includes a wide range of features and additions, including...

- A fully redesigned Global Liberation Army that makes heavy use of tunnels and guerilla tactics. Spread your underground facilities across the map and unnerve your opponent with a plethora of dirty tricks, including a kill-based secondary income and a harassment-oriented airforce.

- The steamrolling Russian Federation as a fully functioning faction with unique buildings, units and powers. Dominate the skies with heavy Hind helicopters, take the field with waves of ever-relentless Shock Troopers and crush your enemies with the unparalleled Sentinel Tank.

- Many new buildings, units and powers for the old factions, the United States of America and the People’s Republic of China have already been added in 1.5 but their arsenal is further expanded by the versatile American Bradley IFV and the missile-blocking Chinese Jammer Tower.

- A fully functioning, efficiently designed navy that is only available on maps that are specifically suited for ship combat, realized by means of a unique system of capturable Naval Yards that avoids the technical issues usually associated with navies in the SAGE engine.

- Several new Tech structures that can be captured to provide helpful advantages, such as Powerplants, Armories as well as all the Tech structures from Shockwave including the Airport, the Radio Station and the mighty War Fortress.

- Many of the more subtle game mechanics have been revamped, including a more sophisticated tech tier system, an improved air/anti-air counter system and improved stealth/scouting mechanics.

- Plenty of new maps that have been exclusively designed for ROTR, as well as restored Generals versions of all the original maps that underwent changes in Zero Hour.




A large crowd stood waiting at the airport of Tripoli on what would otherwise have been an ordinary Monday morning. But this day was going to be different: While Chinese forces pacified the last pockets of GLA resistance in the ruined cities of Central Europe and the atomic mushroom cloud above downtown Hamburg slowly dissipated, the local populace had gathered in thousands to welcome the legendary heroes who made this vision a reality. A frenetical chorus of jubilations greeted General Mohmar 'Deathstrike' as he and his lieutenant Anwar Sulaymaan stepped out of the stolen European plane that evacuated them from the dying continent in the closing hours of the great insurrection. The Libyan government, along with most of north Africa, had been firmly in support of the GLA for years; what Western analysts initially lauded as an uprising for democracy at the start of the 21st century was quickly marred by corruption, infighting and stagnation. A few years down the line, the masses would once again flood the streets and revolt, but this time, under the banner of what was now known as the Global Liberation Army.


But after decades of endless warfare across all of central Asia, the middle east, north Africa and Europe, Deathstrike, with his greatest feat finally accomplished, grew tired, his thirst for blood and glory finally quenched. In the next few years, younger, more ambitious leaders started scheming against him as cell after cell slowly broke away from the cause. Then, triumph finally gave way to tragedy when a cowardly assassin whose allegiance remains unknown to history till this very day, put an end to the life and legacy of Deathstrike. Without their glorious leader, the local warlords and tin-pot dictators quickly re-assumed control, turning the once mighty organisation into a mere shadow of its former self. But Anwar Sulaymaan, Deathstrike's most trusted aide and, according to himself and his loyal followers, his only legitimate successor, would not allow this heresy to go unpunished. With the US still in isolation, the Europeans in disarray and China complacently savouring its supposed 'victory', Sulaymaan's battle-hardened army swept across Africa, re-absorbing the break-away cells while wiping out anyone who opposed him.


But his charismatic leadership and 'convincing methods' could only get him so far. To the chagrin of General Yusuuf, a Saudi cleric and leader of the GLA's most hardline religious wing, Sulaymaan managed to broaden the populist appeal of the organisation: Unlike Deathstrike's GLA which was centred around religious fundamentalism and an odd mix of pan-Turkic and -Arab nationalism, Sulaymaan's GLA would grow to accept every possible current of exploitable violence, ranging from freelance mercenary forces over disenfranchised African militaries to western anti-government anarchists. Financed through oil, drugs and diamonds, his numbers and influence grew larger, eventually surpassing those of the old GLA in the sense that for the first time in the organisation's history, the GLA was in a position to not just be mere guests in a country whose government tolerated them. Thus, Sulaymaan became obsessed with his personal dream of a 'warrior heaven on Earth', an idea which he soon turned into a bloody reality in central Africa. In his vision, the origin of humankind itself would become the first true GLA 'nation', a place solely dedicated to violence and the raw ferociousness of the human condition; a haven of total freedom for those who are strong enough to take it and a refuge for all who opposed the deceptions and hypocricies imposed on them by any scapegoat of their choosing, be it the West, the East, the rich, the elites, the 'man', the 'system', or the very concept of order itself.


As Sulaymaan started building his empire, outside forces quickly arrived to challenge his vision: American corporatists bought their way into Africa to benefit from the continent's great resource boom while the Chinese put an end to the pirate nation of Somalia with a full-scale invasion and occupation. Meanwhile, the Europeans had re-built their countries and re-organised as what they now called the European Continental Alliance. Sulaymaan's north African allies were the first to suffer from their furious retaliation for the humiliation that he and Deathstrike had inflicted upon them and to the south, the up-and-coming Russian Federation had taken control of the lands, further destabilising the delicate balance of power between the global players. By 2040, the stage was set, the players in position...And Sulaymaan's warrior nation, now firmly established in the heart of the divided continent of Africa, was ready to prove its might!

Posted by: simeon5541 27 May 2012, 15:37

Day that never comes has finally come,
thank you guys,and I'm sorry I can't read this update now,
I have to play ROTR xD

THANK YOU !!!!

Posted by: Darkfire Angel 27 May 2012, 15:41

Whoop! Now if only my GPU hadn't decided now was the best time to stop working . I love the background lore though

Posted by: dangerman1337 27 May 2012, 15:44

Hell about time !

Just a question about the filehosting mirror, it is asking for an e-mail address and I'm a bit wary in case of spam and other crap.

EDIT: The MoDB link isn't up yet.

Posted by: The_Hunter 27 May 2012, 15:48

We're trying to get more more mirrors but for now this will have to due untill moddb is authorised.

Posted by: DerKrieger 27 May 2012, 16:01

AWWWW YEAH!!!!

Going to download soon...last time I checked the prior version of RotR wasn't working on my computer, hopefully a fresh install of 1.7 will fix this problem.

Posted by: MARS 27 May 2012, 16:16

Have fun, chaps! This release also marks the end of our ultra-frequent updates. We will NOT fall into another hiatus, but once we start working on the ECA, we will first have to build up our render pool before we
can post new stuff for you guys. Once we continue with that, we will probably get back to a less weekly and more monthly schedule. Good news is that the next thing you see will most likely be ECA stuff, though!

Posted by: Alias 27 May 2012, 16:17

Always good to see a new release.

Will probably have some multiplayer games later.

Posted by: dangerman1337 27 May 2012, 16:23

I'm not sure if this is an issue but the camera height seems pretty low to me for some reason.

Posted by: apmdward007 27 May 2012, 16:25

yeah at last..

btw thank you swr team, wish you goodluck

Posted by: Casojin 27 May 2012, 16:33

ModDb file is not authorized and Filehosting doesn't work.

> Filehosting forces me to enter my email.
> Then it provide a link in the email.
> After clicking download, upload page appears with no download happening.
> This sux...another mirror would be nice (gamefront perhaps).

Posted by: MR.Kim 27 May 2012, 16:56

My reaction

Posted by: simeon5541 27 May 2012, 17:05

Wow,this is the best version of GLA I have played with !!
It is totally refreshed.
I love Dushka nests,Interceptors (Although I whined first time I saw them xD ),and new Jarmen Kell and many more !!
AWESOME WORK !!

Posted by: Suvorov 27 May 2012, 17:42

While I haven't been active in the forums for quite some time, I have been anxiously checking the progress of the mod, even more so once SWR started the uber-updates. Now that 1.7 is released, I'll start counting the days until my beloved ECA faction is playable

Posted by: The_Hunter 27 May 2012, 17:51

After 3 attempts at uploading the file on gamefront (all resulting in failure after 1 hour of uploading!) we gave up on that one.

Posted by: General Tatarin 27 May 2012, 17:52

Let the storm begins !

Posted by: Jester 27 May 2012, 18:30

Awesome I can't wait to get home

Posted by: Comr4de 27 May 2012, 19:12

Ya'll have fun now

Posted by: The_Hunter 27 May 2012, 19:16

Added 2 new mirrors to the download page for you all.

this will have to make due untill moddb authorised our release.

Posted by: Dutchygamer 27 May 2012, 19:21

Groovy! When I get my PC up and running again, I might give it a shot

Posted by: teamnicke 27 May 2012, 19:44

One question while i wait for the download to finish.
Can i just install it "over" ROTR 1.5 or to i have to unistall generals and zero hour and then install 1.7?

Posted by: Janenator 27 May 2012, 19:48

How is the no-install version coming along? Being a Mac user, I believe I need to use that, but when I clicked the link for your page, I only see a list of 4 mirrors, which seem to all be install versions (it mentions the no-install for the mac below, and seems to suggest that the above are only versions with installers). Below this note about the no-install version, it says *No active mirrors available yet*. Will it be up soon? I am playing C&C with a friend later today, and when I saw that you guys released a new version, I nearly jumped out of my chair!
Thank you so much for this mod!

Posted by: Trooper425 27 May 2012, 19:55

Looks like it's time to dust off the ol' C&C TFD disk once again.

Posted by: Darkfire Angel 27 May 2012, 20:06

Having given up on my GPU and switched back to my on board card I managed to play (And sneak a peak at the Ini and content files; some very nice surprises in there).
I have to say that the GLA is totally amazing, wow. I must congratulate whoever came up with the new Generals Powers.

In the mean time I found 1 error

The Observation Van tag is spelled incorrectly.

Posted by: dangerman1337 27 May 2012, 20:15

Since the Shockwave tech buildings are added to RotR does that mean the ShockWave maps are able to be fully compatible along with the AI?

Posted by: The_Hunter 27 May 2012, 21:19

we will be releasing a map pack soon containing the unique shockwave maps with compatibility for ROTR at some point.

Posted by: Generalcamo 27 May 2012, 21:20

RISE OF THE REDS!

I imagine tech buildings would be, but AI might need to be modified.

Posted by: Panzer4life 27 May 2012, 21:24

This is epci SWR, I hope the next release will be as epic as this one. However, I shall wait for the Moddb download to become available, I don't trust any other sites save for file-front. 2 questions, first, must I uninstall the previous version of ROTR to get 1.7 to work, and second, does Russia finally get its background music file with the mod itself, instead of having to download the music file itself?

Posted by: Darkfire Angel 27 May 2012, 21:49

Is that the ECA Solar Blast that I see in the video?

Posted by: GDIZOCOM 27 May 2012, 21:50

Congratulations guys . It's just 5 AM here, just gonna try it later XD

Posted by: The_Hunter 27 May 2012, 21:50

no thats infact a Foab going boom within a cluster of ships.

Posted by: aeroth 27 May 2012, 21:53

Thank you !

Posted by: MR.Kim 27 May 2012, 22:11

I might help you provide new download link from MediaFire. This might be take while. Once download complete.

Posted by: Massey 27 May 2012, 22:11

releasing on a Aussie monday >< now i have to wait to play this.... now all day i will be thinking... work, rotr rotr rotr, study, rotr rotr rotr.... cough cough i feal sick need to go hoome....

Posted by: Generalcamo 27 May 2012, 22:23

Please do. All of the other download mirrors are slow, and have a lot of ads.

Posted by: MR.Kim 27 May 2012, 22:58

Bad news is I can't upload from MediaFire because, they have a limited.

So, I'm use different links. Again, this is take while.

Posted by: Warpath 27 May 2012, 23:13

Finally! I'm gonna download it now.

Oh and thanks a million.

Posted by: Generalcamo 27 May 2012, 23:42

Is the AI supposed to use the tech naval yards? Because for me, they don't.

Posted by: Comr4de 27 May 2012, 23:59

Sadly they can't utilize navy - however we will include some maps in the future that are in the sense of being "Art of Defense" maps that will be able to use them.

Posted by: Generalcamo 28 May 2012, 0:12

Is it technical limitations? Or is it "just too much time?" Because I see a few things were rushed over.

Posted by: MR.Kim 28 May 2012, 0:15

Here is new download link from gamefront:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/21759402/ROTRBeta_17.zip

I noticed some skimirsh maps are removed.

Posted by: Comr4de 28 May 2012, 0:38

Awesome Kim, I'll try and post it on our site and everywhere else! Thanks

Posted by: MR.Kim 28 May 2012, 0:43

Your welcome. It tooks about 1 hour to upload thing.

Posted by: Dimension 52 28 May 2012, 1:10

Oh... my... GOOOOOD!!!
YEEEES!!!!!!! YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!
I can not express my excitement
I love you guys

Posted by: Joac 28 May 2012, 3:14

Hi guys
Hoq can I build chemical labs?
in 1.7 version I cannot to create It
PS
Great tanks for mod!

Posted by: Comr4de 28 May 2012, 3:20

You have to upgrade your command truck with "Escalation" before you can do so =)


I will be posting a GLA Tech Tree poster soon!

Posted by: TheSpudd 28 May 2012, 3:48

OWWWWW YEAH!!!! Seeeeeeeeyaaaaa. I am locked in my man cave for the next five days. Leave a message and I probably won't get back to you.

Thank you SWR!

WEEEEEEOOOOOW.

Ahem ahem...in umm 16mins. Oh and nice trailer by the way!

Posted by: Mcbob 28 May 2012, 4:36

How exactly does the Oil Sabotage work gameplay-wise? Do you have to click on an enemy production facility? Or is it a global effect that occurs no matter where you click? Or does it only affect a production facility in the radius? Or does it have to do with the tech oil refinery?

Posted by: Comr4de 28 May 2012, 5:14

It works by dropping the icon ontop of an enemy unit, structure or what not. Not air units though haha.

It's amazing on PVP and it adds a temporary upgrade which affects the enemy production cost time and money; negative effect of course!

Posted by: Alex1guy 28 May 2012, 5:18

*Clears throat*

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Downloading RIGHT NOW!

Posted by: TheSpudd 28 May 2012, 6:19

Great. Can't get the silly thing to run. And yes I'm about as savvy as it gets when coming to installing SWR stuff. Would you guys have any clue? I'm a Win7 x32. I've freshly reinstalled, and patched ZH, I click on it and it loads for like 1 second and then nothing. not even the little black command prompt box. I've tried putting it in another directory,running it as admin and as xp service pack 3. But. It. Won't. Work. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Posted by: Lobo Solitario 28 May 2012, 7:49

Hurrah! Loving the new GLA, they're perfect!

Congratulations team!

Posted by: Zeke 28 May 2012, 8:34

Only thing left is a redownload,

Posted by: TheSpudd 28 May 2012, 8:59

Stink thing is that it does install but just doesn't open.

I'll re-download off moddb whe its cleared.

Cheers Zeke.

Posted by: Joac 28 May 2012, 9:14

Thanks!
I've manage but thanks anyway))

Posted by: Darkfire Angel 28 May 2012, 9:18

Can someone tell me what the salvage upgrades for the Grad do? I haven't noticed any changes other than visually? Am I missing something?

Posted by: Anubis 28 May 2012, 9:47

Awsome so far. GLA is simply amazing. You guys managed to turn them from one of the most bland and boring factions to probably one of the coolest remakes so far. I still hate the limited airfield ( yay for code changes ) but damn i love the new GLA. But i do have a small question. Could anyone from the team make a post with a list of the maps that contain : A. Naval Docks and B. The new tech defense structures - the european looking ones. Hunting them in maps is kinda .. boring . Also any chance some of the old maps get some naval stuff on them - for example tournament island would be well suited for naval warfare, and just about any map with a equal amount of water for all starting positions.

Posted by: MARS 28 May 2012, 9:55

Off the top of my head...

Naval maps:
El Presidente Island
Bay of Retaliation
Tropical Thunder
Hostile Horizon
Lost Cause

ECA Bunkers:
Bay of Retaliation
Lost Cause

Posted by: Raven 28 May 2012, 9:59

Hell yes!!!! Downloading now...will comeback with feedback later

Posted by: Pickysaurus 28 May 2012, 10:07

Generally any that are prefixed with [ROTR]

Posted by: Arrakis 28 May 2012, 11:35

Just finished my first GLA skirmish match, and it was awesome! Well done! I've got some questions though:
1) Is it possible to include the skin, cameo and sounds of the terrorist in a patch or the next version? The German version is censored, and you wouldn't believe how silly a demo trap riding a combat cycle looks...
2) I asked that before, but I'd like to repeat it: Could you include the English sound files in the next version? Right now I have German voices for old units and English voices for the new units, and I think a complete English version would be much better.
3) Will the saboteur return in a later version? And if yes, for which general(s)?
4) Since every faction will get their own navy, will the ships included in 1.7 get scrapped completely, or will they stay for one faction?
5) Will we still need to spend a general point to unlock demo traps, battle bus ect. once the generals are included?
6) Once the generals are included, how many level 1, 3 and 5 general abilities will available to each of them?

Posted by: Alex1guy 28 May 2012, 11:55

Hey guys, I've just been having a few bugs.

1. Sometimes on certain maps when I play against Russia, they surrender about 20 seconds in. Am I doing something wrong? (Bombardment Beach and El Presidente)

2. Sometimes the GLA will do basically nothing even on hard.

Posted by: D' WRTHBRNGR 28 May 2012, 12:38

Finally the team has done it with a bang. Hats off to the team...
Now about trying to finally install Gens/ZH on my new notebook...

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 28 May 2012, 12:47

Initial reactions - loving the new GLA. They got loads of amazing abilities and modifiable units to keep things interesting. Liked the new gen powers and unlock combinations in the GLA gen power tree. Ain't the biggest fan of how defenses had to get nerfed to make stealth more effective but I guess that got the job done. The aircrafts are a beauty, maybe I'll rarely get to use the other rank 3 gen powers. New Jerman Kell is impressive. Grad is kinda simple but damn effective.

Special cheers for nerfing that damn MSTA. Sad to see Blackout Node apparently still not functioning. Effective and witty changes with the Industrial Plant and turning Listening Outpost into Hack Vans. Golem's change was kinda simple but oh well, it'll get railgun eventually. Things felt a bit rushed from time to time specially with AI not using the navy (which itself is a placeholder) and a few other obvious things. But hey, it's easy to forget that the mod is still a beta.

BTW from where is the Command Truck voice from? Or is it an in-house production?

Posted by: MARS 28 May 2012, 13:20

1/2 - The German version uncut thing might be done at some point, but it's not decided yet. CNCHQ.de actually has a bunch of working uncut patches that were compatible with ShW back in the day.
3 - The Saboteur will not be readded due to reasons that will be revealed later.
4 - Since they are temporary and generic in both look and function, yes, chances are they will be replaced entirely.
5 - No, but we decided to implement it for vanilla because they'd have way too many options available to them otherwise.
6 - The distribution is 3, 3x3, 2. For a single general, that is.



The Command Truck voices are actually from the scrapped GLA POW Truck, a leftover from the early Generals versions which had material for a POW system. As for the naval AI, it is a shame that it doesn't work
right now but we will eventually add special "naval challenge" maps on which the AI is completely scripted to utilise the ships properly. Adding that to the regular AI probably wouldn't have yielded the right results.

Posted by: SorataZ 28 May 2012, 13:26

I think the truck uses the POW truck's original voice.
-ninja'd-

Posted by: CobraHumvee 28 May 2012, 14:04

I hope u guys enjoy playing the mod as much as i did, also how do you like the GLA anti air now

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 28 May 2012, 14:14

Haven't got the chance to see the GLA 2.5 anti air closely yet.

I thought the distribution was,
Rank 1 - 3
Rank 3 - (3x3)+2
Rank 5 - 2

Or are they not gonna have any stand alone rank 3 gen power, which would be a bit weird.

Posted by: MARS 28 May 2012, 14:40

One thing that we'll actually do is to merge the three-level Repair power into one, which will be available to all generals at rank 3 and be about as effective as the current power at level 2.

Posted by: SorataZ 28 May 2012, 14:52

My suggestion is you buy The First Decade in German and download and install the English version. I downloaded the English version and it worked far better than my original ever did and by having bought it you're legally ok. This works in general better because you don't need the uncut patch and you'll notice some differences the uncut patch never ever fixed because it either couldn't or forgot to do so. Plus, the inofficial Patch 1.03 for TFD removes the need for DVD.



Sounds like a script mistake on your side. Take a look into the scripts folder in EA Games -> ZH -> Data -> Scripts (or whatever the names are) and look if on start-up of ROTR the file types change. If not something goes wrong.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 28 May 2012, 14:58

So basically - the stand alone rank 3 gen powers are staying and the Repair power is gonna get merged into a stand alone rank 3 gen power.

Just to be clear - how many gen power slots are you planning to use for every faction (counting all the sub-factions as they're upgrades instead of being fully individual sub-factions) outta the 25 gen power slots? Last time I heard - you guys were planning on using 24 of those slots.

Posted by: bigbri2k5 28 May 2012, 15:23

Random question, but have you checked in the documents\generals zero hour data folder to make sure you have an options.ini file. I had a similar sounding problem to yours(either it would freeze and give me a generals.exe has stopped working error, or it would just disappear with no explanation) and it turned out the ini file was missing, even after multiple clean reinstalls.

Posted by: middle-kingdom 28 May 2012, 16:44

No Saboteur？That's so bad...

Posted by: Casojin 28 May 2012, 17:17

I got a bit confused by GLA at first, but I manage to deploy my Command Center eventually. My silly....the deploy button blends particularly well with other basic command button and I missed it. Nice GLA though, I like mob spawning.

Posted by: Anubis 28 May 2012, 18:34

GLA is awsome. It's defenently very refreshing, even though sometimes i miss a bit more walls and golden domes and less holes . But still really nice. The anti-air is imo still limited for them. The quad gun is the same as all the other T1 AA and the ural is on the same level as the other T2 AA. However neither the interceptor nor the gazelle can come even close to the other factions interceptors. They are highly limited ( rank unlocked plus airfield limit ) and lack actual mobility/speed. And with the new stealth /anti-stealth system, they lack defense vs bomber planes like the stealth fighter or frogfoot. I for one still think they could use a third AA only defense that could help the stinger sites. Those are still the defense that can be taken out by far to many sources. But thats just me

On a different note - why is it that USA has the lowest intel of all factions, while being the high tech one. They need to unlock their only true intel power, and the cia agent is slow as hell. China has stealth LO's and inet centers, GLA has the awsome radar scan that can basicly be massed like crazy. Russia is also meh, but they aint the tech dominant race.

Posted by: MARS 28 May 2012, 18:49

Actually, USA intel is something that we've internally discussed a few days ago and there are going to be some changes to make their options a bit less restricted.

Posted by: Mcbob 28 May 2012, 18:58

Well, USA also has the best scout units in the game: the Sentry Drone, and Spy Drone

Not to mention one is stealthed at all times while the other is aerial (less vulnerable) and both are very fast. Coupled with Search and Destroy expands their vision even further. No other faction comes close.

Also, like China in a sense, USA also gets a rank 1 scouting power (Sat Scan).

I guess it's more balancing to make CIA Intel a general point considering it lasts longer than the Chinese rank 1 version and it also encourages the use of the scout units, because in Vanilla, they pretty much near the start of the game, rendered useless as long as the player gets their Strategy Center up. But, maybe its placement at rank 5 is indeed rather too limiting.

Posted by: Commander-GDI 28 May 2012, 19:10

THX!!! can't wait to play it

Posted by: aeroth 28 May 2012, 19:30

gla tunnel with no machinegun ???????????????????????????


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbeR6uYxU50

Posted by: Arrakis 28 May 2012, 19:41

Thanks for the answers! Last time I tried an uncut patch it didn't work, but I'll try again.
So the Saboteur is gone, and something will be revealed later. Just like the ECA will be relvealed later, the second new faction after Russia, wich uses voices and ideas from Red Alert. Let's see: Red Alert, Europe, stealthed infiltrator who can shut down power and reset superweapon timers... Say, does Russia get Attack Dogs?
When GLA doesn't need general points to unlock those units, does that count for Overlord, Paladin ect., too?

Posted by: Anubis 28 May 2012, 20:17

None is stealthed. The sentry drone no longer has stealth in any way, nor is it a scouting unit - now its a strong anti-inf. The spy drone while being air its also the most vulnerable.

Anyway - glad to hear that USA will get more flexibility in their intel.

Posted by: MARS 28 May 2012, 20:20

What, you'd rather have us replace the Dushka Nest with that pissy little peashooter on top of a Tunnel?



As a general rule, we will later eliminate many of the 'Unlocks unit X' powers, or at least provide them with enough features to make them justified. Overlords and Paladins will become default-available for the generals who have them.

Posted by: Claine 28 May 2012, 20:58

thanks SWR_team DownLoading now^^

Posted by: Mcbob 28 May 2012, 21:27

Oh shoot. Thanks for the pointer on the sentry drone.

Posted by: aeroth 28 May 2012, 22:22

Give the drushka nest to some general and bring back the tunel machinegun...my entire gla tactic is based on that tunnel
map mobility and defences

Posted by: Darkfire Angel 28 May 2012, 22:39

Might I suggest you change tactics then rather? The Tunnel network was a meh defence at the best of times.

Onto other matters

The civilian informant keeps wandering around and randomly gets run over by enemy vehicles. I've tried putting him in out of the way spots but he doesn't have a very large sight radius. I hardly ever take it now since I can just spam radar vans.

I noticed when I put my Command truck into the chem lab a radar dish comes out the dome. is this just a visual thing or is it meant to do something. I'm thinking it represents your ability to still use general powers but I'm not sure. I was thinking maybe it was to give you radar.

Posted by: Comr4de 28 May 2012, 22:55

Place them behind their Supply docks, there's no proper way to hide him from AI as they are random but there will be nitch spots for them.

Would be the same in a PVP game, requires a bit of skill and intuition haha

Posted by: Commander-GDI 28 May 2012, 23:09

only thing annoying me until now is that the GLA-barack needs so much build-space, should be smaller than the armsdealer imo..

Posted by: Mcbob 28 May 2012, 23:19

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/JoeMeas/concepts/things_to_come.jpg

Posted by: MR.Kim 28 May 2012, 23:50

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8826/sshot001.png
I didn't knwo Golem is able cross water

Posted by: aeroth 29 May 2012, 1:08

the countermeasures remain stick to the raptors until they land

p.s. i hope the scud will be in 2.0

Posted by: aeroth 29 May 2012, 1:13

there was only 2 ways to play with gla
vs usa with quads and buggy rush
vs china or another gla with tunnel spam and map control

(and with demo bikes vs noobs:)) )

what can i do now? dushka looks good but dies vs 3 infantery...so not worth the money

Posted by: Generalcamo 29 May 2012, 2:31

You can STILL build tunnel networks. As a matter of fact, you could build an arms dealer and it would function as a tunnel. Map control is still viable. And for defense, keep a few units in your tunnels, and evacuate them on a moment's notice on attack.

Posted by: Casojin 29 May 2012, 2:55

I've tried some GLA and is getting some bearing. After completing a Black Market, GLA is extremely effective vs AI (which just spams and throws their lives at you for money).
Also, the new tunnel production structures are quite good. I can easily send my newly built stuff into battle at the frontline (I still prefer putting a few tunnel out there in the front with camo upgrade).

Considering limited number of detectors in RotR, new GLA stealth stuffs are very effective.

I just know that too. They crossed the river (Final Crusade) to attack my flank.

Posted by: Zeke 29 May 2012, 2:56

That's BS! The Dushka can take on a bradley by itself, it can certainly hold it's own against 3 infantries. Compared to that the tunnel network gun is puny and can't even shoot air.

Also there's the fortified structures upgrade.

Posted by: Casojin 29 May 2012, 3:06

Maybe the 3 infantries he faced are Shocktroopers.

Posted by: Warpath 29 May 2012, 4:43

I've played against a Russian opponent and not even their Shocktroopers can damage my Duska, they eventually destroyed it when they deployed armor.

Posted by: Lobo Solitario 29 May 2012, 4:46

I've had the same. It seems that Generals generates the .ini file when you first run it after installing, so doing a fresh install and then installing a mod straight away can cause problems - I find that doing a fresh install and then starting the first campaign mission in ZH before quitting out, and then installing mods, is the option which works best for me.

Posted by: MARS 29 May 2012, 5:53

Right. There's absolutely nothing 'weak' about the Dushka. As a matter of fact, it tears through infantry and even light vehicles if you place a small bunch of them.
And then there's also the AP Ammo upgrade. The only thing that makes them more vulnerable by comparison is that the gunner can die before the structure goes down.

Posted by: IPS 29 May 2012, 9:17

who knows

Posted by: Jester 29 May 2012, 9:19

Anyone notice the ECA A400 yet? It comes when you call in the diverted supply drop

Posted by: aeroth 29 May 2012, 10:18

That's exacly what i mean when i sayd infantery kills it because infantery kill the gunner rendering the nest useless....the network tunnel gun was weaker but more reliable.
And in combination with a pop-out of 8 units we have a winner...

re: p.s. i still hope scud will be in 2.0 !?!

Posted by: Warpath 29 May 2012, 10:58

Most of us seen it, and for some reason it doesn't drop supplies.

Posted by: GuardianTempest 29 May 2012, 11:58

My turn to fangasm.

1. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. When summer began here in SE Asia, I wondered what'll go first: Me getting a laptop or you guys releasing something new. You win, obviously, It's almost June and I still don't have my laptop. Guess I won't be able to play for a while, but when that day comes: Prepare for some aggressive cowardice.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 29 May 2012, 12:03

Ofc Scud will be in 2.0, unique to one of the GLA gens.

Posted by: Jester 29 May 2012, 12:35

Also i like the new propaganda adds on the chinese airship...Problem General

Posted by: General Tatarin 29 May 2012, 14:14

Will GLA (perhaps, one of the generals) get heavy tank in future release?

Posted by: MARS 29 May 2012, 14:26

The heaviest tank they get will be Sulaymaan's Marauder.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 29 May 2012, 14:29

Probably not. That ain't their stuff plus they got plenty of firepower for the GLA. Grad is crazy good sheer muscle. New Scorpion is also buff. BTW I really miss the old sneaky Scud.

edit - oops

Posted by: General Tatarin 29 May 2012, 15:19

Ok, I understand. Heavy vehicles does not fit GLA tactics, but what difference will be between Sulaymaan's Marauder and Marauder from 1.7 ?

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 29 May 2012, 15:52

^Earlier they said they have plans to make it different...

Anyway am I the only one who is rather impressed by the Ural's punch? And look at that - AI now knows how to use Boris's airstrike. That's cool.

Posted by: General Tatarin 29 May 2012, 16:30

I have one notice, that it is impossible to use building's tunnel network ability while unit (vehicle / infantry) is in production. That is a little annoying. Perhaps, maybe I need a time to get used with GLA because of different tactics.

BTW GLA's Ural AA is beast. All USA air superiority is on the ground

Posted by: Lobo Solitario 29 May 2012, 16:40

I'm still trying to adapt my tactics to their new economy - no more sneakily spamming tunnels and black markets round the edges of the map before burying the enemy under a tidal wave of units

Urals are great, but mine keep undeploying themselves when other units push past them.

Posted by: MARS 29 May 2012, 16:45

Shhh! You're the GLA, not China.

Posted by: scorpio 29 May 2012, 16:58

is it just me or is the hard mode in 1.7 way harder than in 1.5

Posted by: General Tatarin 29 May 2012, 17:16

Yea, you are right. AI is smarter than never

Posted by: aeroth 29 May 2012, 17:47

Well if gla has no more numbers, no tech superiority and no brute force superioty what can it do ? My tactics with gla are on the ground right now...

It does not even feel like i am playing gla...all the good stuff like tunneling and overwelm with economy and map control are kinda dead right now...

The only 2 viable units with gla in an pvp remain the quad rush (can't beat china with it cuz of cheap tanks) and buggy micro(witch dies in front of a chopper)
Gla is at the moment the weakest pvp faction

Posted by: aeroth 29 May 2012, 17:51

Economic crisis ))

Posted by: Jester 29 May 2012, 19:38

LOL epic excuse...kudos to you sir

Posted by: Overdose 29 May 2012, 21:57

Can't wait until I get back home and play it

Posted by: Comr4de 29 May 2012, 22:02

I Lol'd

Posted by: Jester 29 May 2012, 23:15

Hay just out of curiosity I saw an aircraft carrier shaped vessel on bay of retaliation...does this mean something?

Posted by: Comr4de 30 May 2012, 0:14

We could be trolling you

Posted by: Lobo Solitario 30 May 2012, 3:21

But with China you can see it coming - with the GLA, all is silent, and then BOOM!

Posted by: Alex1guy 30 May 2012, 3:44

I loathe Borris and his bloody airstrikes! Sneaky lil Bastard running in and out before I even notice his little blip!

I do admire how annoyingly well he's programmed.

Posted by: Mcbob 30 May 2012, 3:54

If so, best troll ever.

Because: The ship hulls are randomized every time

Posted by: Warpath 30 May 2012, 4:39

That is an aircraft carrier under construction, there's also a battleship there.

Did anyone notice that this is in the sneak peak picture Comr4de gave us before?

Posted by: Mcbob 30 May 2012, 4:52

Yes.

Posted by: Zeke 30 May 2012, 6:10

Harass harass and moar harass! Since the other factions have a lot less detectors now, trolling with the GLA is a lot more epic.



How can their tunneling be dead if practically all their buildings are tunnels now. Before ROTR I was one of those people who never used tunnels, I only started appreciating them after I played ROTR

Posted by: aeroth 30 May 2012, 8:59

you can't build a barrac near his base you need tunnels with machinegun to do that, trust me in pvp tunnels without machine gun are just too damn weak you can't get the pop-out every time for varius reasons.

And harass will not win games...maybe team games. how can you harass a steam rolling china? or an russian tank rush ? you just get big ownage, gla is really very weak atm in pvp

Posted by: General Tatarin 30 May 2012, 9:49

Use Hijackers against the tank masses, especially against Russia ! Trust me, that works well ! I also tested demo trucks and traps. Amaizing thing ! Use upgraded GLA radar vans !

China has Overlord and Russia has Sentininels as their super heavy tanks. GLA do not have heavy tank ( in future on of the generals will get more "advanced" marauder medium tank) because of it's mobility. What about USA? I know ECA will get some kind of future sci-fi cyber super heavy tank. Will USA faction remains with Crusader and Paladin with it's air superiority?

Posted by: IPS 30 May 2012, 9:59

The new GLA is heavily dependand on a good early game rush and map controll.
But it's definitely not a weak faction. ; )

Posted by: aeroth 30 May 2012, 10:20

You played too much vs AI i specified that this is in pvp. Were the opponent is not stupid and uses conscripts and transportors to detect stealth. (and most players don't use overlord and sentinel in pvp, too slow and expensive only if both players are, let's say, kinda low players and get to late game) how can you stop a swarm of dragon tanks with 2 transportors and 3-4 ecm tanks with gla ??


How can i control the map if my tunnels can't defend themself? I tryed like 10 times but the lack of defence is horrible, i need to compensate by building unreliable defences like stinger and duska and more then ofthen the "crew" is getting killed before the building is destroyed

players usualy if see you're stealhed defence once they will ground attack it and if that building is an tunnel withour any defence placed on => money lost


IPS the only viable good early game rush with gla is technical with 4 terorist and it will win game only if opponent never heard of missile soldiers ( or mines for china)



And if all get a super heavy tank then the unique faction gameplay will be shit. it's like playing with russia vs russia vs russia vs russia...
give all heavy tanks, super jets, super infantery...and why not name it the same ?

"sentinels for everybody" (read in arabic accent)

Posted by: General Tatarin 30 May 2012, 10:40

Yes, you are right, for now I'm practicing to play with GLA faction against AI. What about technicals full of terrorists or hijackers?

Posted by: aeroth 30 May 2012, 10:52

why hijackers?? techincal with 4 terorist park it near enemy war factory get terorist out, kill warfactory. enemy just lost 2000 money and got behind u at basebuilding

hijacker was fun to put him in front of enemy warfactory with guard in ealy, now he has no more gard, and needs more micro



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvGAvYgdcAc&feature=relmfu

Posted by: Darkfire Angel 30 May 2012, 11:49

A bad workman blames his tools.

From what I can see you don't want to have to micro much, or at all. The GLA Tunnel gun sucks nuggets, so I don't know what you were defending against that you can call them the ultimate battlefield controller. Plenty of people have offered you different ideas but you refuse to accept them because you're certain that only one tactic works and now you can't do that.

Also why post a link to Zero Hour video, the factions have changed enough that they aren't even worth comparing.

Posted by: dangerman1337 30 May 2012, 13:38

I was wondering, is there only one map currently that has the Blockade Fortress (being Loust Cause)?

Posted by: aeroth 30 May 2012, 13:54

How can i accept something that does not work in practice ? The gla tunnel gun was very very important that tunnel is the center of the entire gla tactics.

It gives you reliable defence and map control via mobility. Like MARS sayd if you build enough dushka you have strong defence the same is with the weak tunnel gun, if you build enough tunnels you got strong defence.

I for one never seen in an zero hour tournament one stinger nest !! Not one ! Why ? Simple Unreliable,cost too much.....
In rotr the gla have practicly no defence....you are forced to constantly have a group of army in you're base cuz usa for example can drop 6 rangers in base and game over, they kill all defences with ease or one sneaky dragon tank and again game over u loose base when you are attacking....

Maybe gla is for you perfect but i can't compete with gla atm in pvp

Oh and the post was to show what pvp is. The big tanks don't win games sentinel tank can't beat buggy for example.

Posted by: Commander-GDI 30 May 2012, 14:23

yeah thats true if you play with only 10000$ on small tournament-maps. If you play on a big map with lots of money and fortresses, the big tanks are more worth to build..

Posted by: General Tatarin 30 May 2012, 14:29

The tanks that I've mentioned, are a part of my offtopic question. I just added them for comparison.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 30 May 2012, 14:40

From what we know - US will only have their Crusaders and Paladins with unique upgrades for the tanks. No super-heavy tanks for them.

Posted by: General Tatarin 30 May 2012, 15:06

Perhaps, tank destroyer will do the trick.

BTW after so many times of playing, I've realized, that Russians do not have a medium or light tank in their arsenal. Even Kodiak is a type of heavy tank ..

Posted by: Zeke 30 May 2012, 15:10

IMO the BMPs are as good as light tanks (maybe better)

Posted by: Evan 30 May 2012, 18:02

HAHA people obviously haven't really understood the new GLA yet, get Sneak attack, load your tunnels with some little defense, deploy tunnel behind the enemy base, close enough to be annoying far enough to be stealthlike, evacuate your units to hold the area them tech up to a Hide out, EXPAND ALL OVER HIS BASE while he is all sorts of confused trying to understand how the fuck you just did that.

Also, if you're gonna be awesome, use the Suicide Planes around right in front of YOUR units, that way the planes will soften up, or outright kill anything that wants to put it's nose in your business

Posted by: kingdomjoker 31 May 2012, 6:52

Great jobs as always. I LOVE the new GLA.

Still, there are two hotkey problems:

1. Chinese Nuke Reactor and Breeder Reactor use the same hotkey "R". When I click "R" on my keyboard I can only build Nuke Reactor, so I have to use my mouse to build Breeder Reactor.

2."Warden Missile" upgrade of Russian Sentinel uses "W" as hotkey. Unfortunately "W" is the hotkey for selecting all the air forces in the screen.

Just little problems, I wish you to fix them in the next version.
It's the best ZH Mod I've played, thank you for making it happen.

Posted by: Lobo Solitario 31 May 2012, 7:07

Starting to get the hang of things now. The level 3 airforce unlocks seem to be a must for a less agressive player such as myself - the extra cash from the cargo drops and more importantly, the suicide planes makes a big difference. Still need to work more on getting out there and in people's faces. Anyone know if it's cost effective to send Urals out to ambush enemy planes? I'm guessing not.

Posted by: MARS 31 May 2012, 7:46

Planes not so much as I assume human players would send them along less predictable routes but I suppose you could use them to ambush Ospreys that automatically venture outside the enemy base after their primary resource pile is depleted.

Posted by: aeroth 31 May 2012, 9:39

Btw the ECA A400 dropping supplys means the ECA extra money source will be some air drop like the USA's ??

Posted by: MARS 31 May 2012, 9:42

Last time I checked, the GLA power also called in Russian Candids and Chinese transport planes even though they're not used for money drops by their own parent factions either.

Posted by: aeroth 31 May 2012, 11:28

Then how will ECA get extra cash ??


Btw the gla bounty sistem to make money from what my brother calculated is less money then the rest and it makes you fight to get money. To be effective 1 gla unit should kill 2-3 enemy units and the gla units are kinda weak. On maps with little money i find this to be a problem

Posted by: Jester 31 May 2012, 11:33

Just to confirm the A400 does drop crates but not all the time. From what I've noticed it has to be an open flat area in order for the cargo to be dropped.

Posted by: ultimentra 31 May 2012, 20:01

I have been lurking around for quite a bit, congrats to the team on the new release! I am reinstalling first decade as I type this post.

Posted by: Alex1guy 31 May 2012, 22:51

That's what I've found too (after flattening an enemy base with scuds and anthrax. I dropped the supply crates down just for the hell of seeing the plane fly over and it ACTUALLY dropped supplies much to my annoyance. My cans of bully beef would be contaminated now).

Posted by: ravennevar 1 Jun 2012, 0:15

Hello to all! I am new to ROTR but a little confused about the mod. Are there only 4 factions? I read somewhere about a European faction but I do not see it. Also, I read about subfactions (3 different generals per faction) and Navy but I do not see those either. I would appreciate some clarification so that I know it installed correctly and I see what I should be seeing. Thanks!

Posted by: Anubis 1 Jun 2012, 0:34

Hy. You probably read an insufficient source, or went tl;dr on it. The european faction will come in a later release ( the next one ) while subfactions will come in the final release ( subfactions will replace the current vanila style factions ). As for navy - search for maps that have [ROTR] at the end of their name and most of them that have lots of water also have navy. However navy is not faction buildable but as tech structures that must be captured ( engine limitations reasons ).

Posted by: ravennevar 1 Jun 2012, 1:05

Thanks for the info Anubis! I look forward to future releases. I enjoyed Shockwave and this one looks great!

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 1 Jun 2012, 4:08

Does the GLA AI always go for the assault hardware requesting gen power? Seems like the AI uses a lot of Battle Buses, Grads and a few Marauders but can't remember seeing it use units like Bomb Trucks.

Posted by: Warpath 1 Jun 2012, 4:19

Maybe since I haven't seen those vehicles when playing against the GLA, they also don't use the anthrax upgrade.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 1 Jun 2012, 5:51

I think I've seen the anthrax upgrade on AI Scorpions. These Scorpions can create moderately large, nasty anthrax puddles really quickly.

Posted by: Warpath 1 Jun 2012, 10:16

I didn't see those when I fought the GLA in medium but weren't the Scorpion rocket make puddles too?

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 1 Jun 2012, 11:08

As far as I know Scorpion rockets don't make puddles, only it's shells do after the Toxin Shells upgrade.

Oh wait, now that I think about it... were you talking about the Anthrax Beta upgrade and not the Toxin Shells upgrade? I ain't sure but I think I have seen the Hard AI use that upgrade.

Posted by: ultimentra 1 Jun 2012, 22:54

I love the new tesla gun for the shocktroopers. If you put one with the tesla gun equipped, and one with the regular rocket rifle equipped inside a building in a choke point or in a clustered city, those two shock troopers alone can stop small light armor groups from advancing. A really neat tactic.

Posted by: aeroth 1 Jun 2012, 23:20

Shock trooper:

Yeah

Fully charged

Power on

Extra Crispy

Burn baby burn

Lights out


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1qCzq1_n2o

Posted by: Alex1guy 1 Jun 2012, 23:56

Ah I fucking hate facing those shock troopers. A squad of them can seriously disrupt a Chinese armour column.

Posted by: Warpath 2 Jun 2012, 0:51

Yes, is the Anthrax upgrade still in game since the only thing I saw is the Anthrax bomb?

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 2 Jun 2012, 4:24

Ofc the Anthrax Beta upgrade is still in the game. Here is something fun - try using your SCUD storm on a Chinese base after the upgrade. The blue toxin and green smoke mixed with the golden radiation from Chinese reactors make a creepy yet colourful sight.

Posted by: Generalcamo 2 Jun 2012, 22:53

http://forums.swr-productions.com/index.php?showtopic=2191

I want our promised ECA Infantry/Structure update.

Posted by: Jester 3 Jun 2012, 0:22

I want doesn't get.

Posted by: Darkfire Angel 3 Jun 2012, 0:37

Well....

If you look in the Content big files you can see some cameos for ECA units and buildings.

Posted by: ed3891 3 Jun 2012, 4:02

This pretty much ate up my Saturday. I played vs. the AI on as many maps as I could 'till I got kicked out of the game (and back to cold, cruel reality) by an internal error.

I am pants-pissingly delighted by the new version~ 8D

Posted by: MARS 3 Jun 2012, 6:32

You just received 'your' promised release of 1.7 a mere week ago. We actually want people to play the new version for a bit before rushing on with the ECA, thank you very much. Do rest assured that there won't be another hiatus, but for now, updates will be on hold for a bit. We've been working on the mod constantly since roughly December, churning out tons of content for what felt like half a year of weekly updates. Our media pool is currently depleted as we'll have to get the ECA assets that we finished in the meantime into the actual game next. Once that's done, there will be renders and once we have those, there will be updates. Also, there is some chance that we might release a small patch to take care of some of the most glaring bugs that somehow slipped past our radar.

Posted by: JRK 3 Jun 2012, 9:32

Thought I'd drop by and congratulate you on the release guys. Damn it has been a very long time. I thought the Zero Hour scene was dead but I guess I have a reason to reinstall the good old RTS

Catch y'all later

scopejim

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 3 Jun 2012, 9:50

Will the MTG updates of the generals of other factions continue once you start the ECA updates?

Anyway enjoy your break. You guys deserve it.

Posted by: MARS 3 Jun 2012, 10:53

They probably will, considering 1.) that there's only two ECA generals left to revise/post and 2.) the next version, while focused on the ECA, will most likely add a few things to the other factions as well just like 1.7 did despite being built around the GLA.

By the way...We've discussed the gameplay changes in great detail so far, but I was somewhat surprised that there hasn't been any major comment on this update's lore yet. As always, I would be greatly interested in your thoughts regarding these events.

Posted by: Commander-GDI 3 Jun 2012, 11:44

a bunch of 20 bradlys eats a hole GLA base for brackfast

Posted by: Generalcamo 3 Jun 2012, 13:24

That wasn't meant in rudeness, but now that I look at it....

Apologies, again, for that mess.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 3 Jun 2012, 13:55

About the lore - we already knew/figured out how Sulaymaan got to rise on top of the GLA, how he had to crush splinter cells, how he turned Africa into his heaven until the global powers starting their African incursion from the previous updates. It was really good how you clearly sorted out the questions concerning sources of GLA income (oil, diamond, drugs etc) and elite manpower (Somali pirates, African mercenaries etc) with pics.

A really interesting point is Sulaymaan's on view of the world. He is charismatic and resourceful, yet his personal dream is almost like a sociopath's. Instead of going for the traditional GLA view of fundamentalism and Arab nationalism he wants a place solely dedicated to violence like some kinda bandit lord from the classical era. Obviously he used other reasons like "fighting global oppression", "freedom for all" or "fundamentalism for heaven" in his speeches to gain populist appeal, it would be interesting to hear more about those.

Since the new GLA is Africa based, some of us thought the gens are gonna be from Africa. So interesting twist on Yusuuf being a Saudi cleric, will be looking forward to hearing about his backstory and what lead him to join the GLA's cause instead of leading an irrationally expensive and luxurious life like most (if not all) of other high class Saudis.

Another thing I found really interesting is the map of Africa. Looks like US has a good hold on the good places of the continent, having South Africa under their wing (pun not intended but it sounds cool!) is a huge boost. Now that they're also in Africa instead of being stuck in their own continent, and in a good position to boot, would it be time to re-consider expanding influence towards old "friends" like Japan or Australia?

Shouldn't be hard those friends are probably terrified by China's expansionism and another Korean wars. Obviously the Euros, even the Brits, probably wouldn't wanna take orders from them again after the ECA's development but there are other parts of the world that aren't so lucky. What about their old pals in Israel? India might wanna get chummy given the way China is creeping around it's borders (while maintaining a good relation at the same time for economic reasons ofc).

Surprising to see China being able to get hold of Arab countries like Egypt who share different views but I guess the puppet governments they installed across the Mid-east during ZH helped them get friendly with the Arabs in North Africa. Adding their capture of Somalia in the lore was a class stroke. It gives them an interesting role in the story while bullying into a country for a semi-valid reason is exactly what ZH China would do. BTW in that propaganda photo the Chinese naval infantry are holding assault rifles - that's definitely making some people dream.

ECA's advance into Africa has been known for a while. Now we know the clear boundaries. Would be interesting to see how these countries fair under ECA rule and what treatment they receive. My guess is they would practically be treated like colonies and all their resources (whatever is left) are gonna get drained off them.

Russia got a hold of a pretty good amount of land. Would be interesting to know what they did with it. They got a lot of land but none of it is particularly developed. That's such a typical "Red Alert Soviet" thing to happen. I wonder if these countries got the "assimilation" treatment or if they managed to get to another surprising co-existence with the Russians like the Baltic Alliance got to.

BTW some might not like the way Libya clearly got mentioned as pro-GLA country. Yeah it's just fluff and it's hard to write a story without mentioning any RL countries but considering their history and their current crisis any Libyan around here probably wouldn't appreciate this. I ain't from anywhere near Libya though (which you obviously already know) but still wanted to point that out.

Posted by: Generalcamo 3 Jun 2012, 14:04

In the real world, the North American Free Trade Alliance could potentially be one of the greatest economic entities in the world, even bigger then the European Union, if of course, it is ever put into full effect.

I am assuming that in ROTR, it was put into full effect, and it spread down to Central America too. They probably won't want to start going back to other countries, as they have their own economic superpower. That is, of course, they resolve the real world debt problems. They probably owe China a large amount of money, for real world events, and ROTR events.

Posted by: MARS 3 Jun 2012, 15:24

Right, Sulaymaan was introduced in the first GLA updates that came before the Orlov-story, but this one was done in an attempt to provide something about his actual goals other than the fact that he's been a total pain in the arse to the West. But yeah, the stuff about funding and manpower are indeed worth mentioning as it may act as an excuse for their hyper-competence. They're obviously not able - or wanting - to mount another attack on Europe, but they can project force across most of Africa thanks to their position. Plus, they have the central African rainforest to hide in. If Sulaymaan is actually clever, he'd leave it intact and use it as a hiding place from Western powers who don't want to deal with the PR-disaster of carpet bombing the rainforest. It fits rather nicely with his shtick of exploiting the West's high-horse moralising as you'll see in his upcoming MTG.



Truth be told, I kinda set him up as an arsehole-version of Big Boss from Metal Gear, a legendary soldier who was sick of the lies and deceptions of politicians and set out to create a free nation in which soldiers would always have a place, which he called Outer Heaven. This is quite obviously a dark take on this concept, as Sulaymaan uses his pervasive idea to hoard aggressive people behind him in a world that's getting increasingly radicalised. But yeah, some of the ideological aspects will probably be expanded upon, although we'll be careful not to be too explicit when it comes to the religious stuff for obvious reasons.



Interesting thoughts on Yusuuf. I'll definitely consider some of these aspects when I get around to writing his MTG.



The borders of this map are actually based on an old image that has been shown several years ago, when this was all still happening in the late 2020s. In order to make that retcon a little less jarring, we've decided to keep the borders as they were depicted in that old map, merely adding a GLA territory to the mix. Since this is supposed to be in 2040, it'd be fair to say that the US have gotten their act together by then. The meltdown of their economy happened after ZH and went on until at least the early 2030s ('Farewell to Foreign Shores' update). The creation of the North American Union by the new government was meant to get them back on track and seems to have been a success. At that point, they started working on their geo-political role, so a renewed cooperation with Japan, Australia and now South Africa fits in as well. So yeah, by that time, the US is back in mostly back in the saddle, if at the same time humbled by the hardships they've endured.



The same reasoning as above would apply here too, yes.



Yeah, those rifles are probably gonna be lore-only for now. Trying to do the same shot with 1950s style Red Guards and SKS rifles proved to be too much of a challenge but then again, the Chinese navy is obviously operating under entirely different doctrines than the ground forces who have a much more sizeable, much more expendable infantry portion in the game. No point in arming these guys with modern assault rifles if all they're expected to do is to go chaaaaaaaaarge.



What they do to these countries has already been brought up internally and it's probably something you wouldn't immediately expect, given the way they got a hold of these territories. Stay tuned.



Well, considering the resistance they're facing during the lead-up to the GLA revival (Orlov series), chances are they weren't welcome and since there's literally no common cultural background to build this relationship on, chances are the Russians just strong-armed their way into these countries, if necessary by force and occupied them. The territories being underdeveloped may also be a historical motif: Imperial Germany, i.e. that of the late 19th/early 20th century, is sometimes described as the 'belated nation' because it achieved its national unity and (then) current form long after every other major European power and ended up with a relatively unimpressive colonial empire as well. In this scenario, Russia would be the 'belated nation' because the first decades after the Soviet collapse were essentially lost decades until Suvorov showed up and provided the nation with a new long-term vision.



That's something we've considered, but at the end of the day, it's there for a reason: Right now, Libya - as well as some of the other North African countries - face a serious risk of having their revolutions hijacked by extremists, much like how the actual Russian revolution of 1917 was hijacked by the communists, although the parties in this case are obviously different. If there's anything to be learned from this reference, it's not that we wanted to insult those who were involved in the Arab revolutions; it should rather be seen as a cautionary tale as to what might happen if the wrong people end up making the wrong decisions in this critical phase. There's also a more trivial reason: Back in the day, Generals had a very noticeable 'ripped from the headlines' feel to it which, while somewhat cheesy, did add to its overall charm and we wanted to invoke this with certain aspects of our storyline as well, hence why there's references to the Arab Spring, the European crisis etc.

Posted by: Generalcamo 3 Jun 2012, 16:21

I see the GLA actually accepting any of the big three religions, as long as they are extreme. I can see Islam, Christian, and Judist extremists. I mean, as long as they are fighting for a similar cause.



So, the United States immediately jumps back into the saddle? After enduring years of debt? Even during the (ingame) European Crisis? I am interested to hear how they got in that position in a future update.



I would be interested to hear how the rest of the factions are doing in Africa. I know the USA is in good terms, but is it for a common good?



You might want to fluff this up a little bit, perhaps add in a little bit where the leader is killed while visiting another African country, perhaps by the GLA, mirroring the start of WWI. That would be interesting. And would probably offend less. As long as the killing isn't BANG, HE'S DEAD. It needs to be extreme.

Posted by: MARS 3 Jun 2012, 16:36

I wouldn't call this immediately. They're in a deep crisis between 2028 and -at least- 2032. In an attempt to remedy the situation, they come forward with the idea of NAU, which ends up including the US, Canada and Mexico. This somehow gets them back into shape to a point where they are once again noteworthy and influential enough to make deals with South Africa until 2040 while presumably restoring their former ties with Japan, Australia and Israel in the process. As for the Europeans, they're already in a crisis before the GLA attack of 2028 and receive massive funds from China in the aftermath.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 3 Jun 2012, 17:57

Thanks for clearing out US's current status. Good to hear they're back in a position that they can be considered a valid superpower once more. I wonder what they'll do in the aftermath of the RotR Euro crisis. As for the rest,

Yeah all the experienced manpower Sulaymaan has gathered up should definitely contribute to the current GLA's hyper competence. He probably uses the almost illiterate, poor peasants he grabs for the cause to do dirty or suicidal works like digging tunnels, setting demo charges, driving vehicles and of course running suicide attacks while he uses experienced and ruthless Somali pirates and mercenaries for his direct assaults.

Good call on how he is hiding in the Central African rainforests using the West's high horse moralising as cover. Even China probably wouldn't dare set a napalm bomb or two on those forests given now they have to maintain a clean image as the (perhaps self declared) global peacekeeper.

That makes sense. I never actually played Metal Gear but the concept of Sulaymaan getting sick of the oppression and deception of the world and trying to rebuild it into a more honest world based on violence is indeed interesting. Yeah obviously you better be careful when dealing with the religious stuff. Again you'll probably have to expand the fundamentalist, nationalistic and ideological view of the GLA to make them complete. Cause after all, those concepts are probably what makes most of the average GLA grunts tick. These reasons combined with RL reasons like exploits of the rich on the poor, are what eventually leads them to become aggressive IMO.

Making the assault rifles lore only and making the Chinese navy work under different doctrines are both interesting decisions IMO. It would probably help plenty of fans to know that, at least lorewise, Chinese army uses assault rifles in RotR universe.

As for the Red Army being armed with semi-auto rifles... IMO it's related to GAPA. After forming the GAPA China had to position plenty of troops all over their new expanded "empire" to stabilise and impress the citizens of those nations and to give them an impression of safety that China considers it as it's duty to protect GAPA nations in the radically unstable world. But in reality China was falling in an economic crisis following the ZH conflicts and couldn't afford such extensive military operations while keeping the entire Red Army modernised. So they mostly went for quantity for the sake of overall stability of their own country and GAPA and to recover from the inevitable economic crisis.

Another reason would be cause they probably needed to to set up plenty of nuclear (or perhaps breeder) reactors in the GAPA nations to stabilise them. This costed China, effectively halting the modernisation of a good portion of the Red Army. Two things that can surely tame a South or SE Asian nation are probably energy and economical structures, specially energy. Russia has used this power plant tactics since the cold wars, they helped set up quite a few power plants all over the region. Even today they're winning influence with energy while China are trying to adopt this tactics. Not to mention the "energy race" China and India are locked in right now... at this pace in near future, there won't be a single river left that would run in it's natural route. Anyways power is a key.

I was probably being a bit stereotypical there... but what can I say?

Thanks for clearing out Russia's relation with their African territories. This is quite an interesting concept on Russia, Russia's rise is quite admirable as they mostly rose back to a superpower status mostly in an honest way instead of vastly exploiting weaker nations, given they started their expansion after they got back on the saddle. However you obviously need to be careful to make sure Suvorov doesn't end up looking like the new Third Reich if you wanna make Russia look grey instead of the total villains of the story.

I thought as much. Personally I don't mind this but obviously sensitive matters like this can obviously unintentionally hurt someone so I had to point it out. And yeah Generals had a RL headlines feel to it and had hints of RL events, views and policies. Obviously it's impossible to write a good story based on the Generals background without using RL references. And tbh the RL references are one of the main reasons that is keeping fans hooked up to the story. At least that's the case for me lol.

Posted by: MARS 3 Jun 2012, 18:19

It does make some surprisingly good sense: Naval infantry detachments are obviously not as numerous as 'regular' infantry and thus easier to modernise on a full scale and the stuff they do (i.e. boarding ships) puts them in situations where a short select-fire assault rifle would be more useful than an unwieldy SKS.



An interesting take. I suppose we can assume that Red Guards not only act as soldiers but also as general purpose security troops and even police auxiliaries during peace time. In that context, it also makes sense for them to wear what looks like a dress uniform along with an old-school rifle which simply looks more impressive for ceremonial purposes than the typical Chinese bullpup-style rifle.



No worries. The Russian president, while still fitting some of the more 'dubious' political methods that are stereotypically attributed to Russian leaders, is a visionary and he does unleash what amounts to being this universe's Third World War, but there are a few things that clearly place him in a more favourable light than any genocidal historical dictator. For one, he initially tried to fulfil his vision of a Russian-led Eurasian hegemony by diplomatic means (see 'Built to Last' update), his war against Europe carries very little ideological (Russia is -not- communist) and absolutely zero racial dimensions and the reason why he actually starts it, as we're going to reveal later, is actually because Russia got systematically antagonised by all the other powers, fell into a sudden recession after 2041 and suffered some other unfortunate events that were outside anyone's control. As such, the main reason for the war is him trying desperately to break his country out of a crisis that threatens to destroy the works of decades (and by extension his personal legacy) and during the war, he will personally ensure that none of his subordinates takes things too far.

Posted by: Jester 3 Jun 2012, 18:23

PLEASE POST OR PM ME SOME,
I would do it my self but I have no clue what I'm doing with final big

Posted by: ultimentra 3 Jun 2012, 21:44

I am loving the lore stuff. MARS have you considered writing a book on ROTR? With all of the stuff you guys have written over the years, it wouldn't be hard to make one, and I would buy it. You just have to market it correctly.

Also- something I have noticed that I am not sure if this was intentional in the coding of the GLA AI or not.

I have noticed that GLA Medium AI differentiates their tactics somewhat, and differ what generals powers they select based on what faction you are. When playing as Russia, I have noticed that I never get suicide plane attacks. However, I get them every time I play as the USA (harr harr, 9/11 joke). I also see them use the anthrax bomb or whatever its called now every time I play as China, but never as Russia or USA.

Also, the USA AI REALLY likes to use Missile Defenders, ALOT. Is there any particular reason for this?

Still talking about the Medium AI, the GLA are the only ones that build a Superweapon. I have let games go on for an hour, and the China Medium, Russia medium, and USA medium will never build a Superweapon. GLA always build a SCUD storm though. Any particular reason for this?

One other thing- I have noticed that the Hard AI is miles away from Medium in difficulty. I don't know if I just suck at the game or what, but the Hard AI can dance circles around me. They seem to produce tons of money to field large attack forces within the first 5-7 minutes of the game, when I am still at T2 trying to build up and get to T3. I honestly don't know they do it, or anyone does it for that matter.

Is there anyway to create a kind of mid-way between Medium and Hard difficulty? I can win against mediums no problem now, but I lose against Hards every time no matter what faction.

Posted by: Mcbob 3 Jun 2012, 21:52

This is good. Isn't it?

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 4 Jun 2012, 4:45

Look at the names of the GLA generals, their religion is obvious. It's no brainer what religion "Anwar Sulaymaan" follows, or rather was born in since a sociopath like him probably doesn't follow any religion no more.

EA was a bit more subtle with the it's naming, using aliases like Dr. Thrax or Deathstrike. But all the hints concerning GLA always pointed towards a certain RL terrorist organisation so IMO it doesn't really matter much if you name the gen names are subtle or clear. EA's subtle-ish naming can even be considered a cynical move by some.

Exactly. I would also say the same for Battlemasters. Deploying only Red Guards probably would've looked too simple, so China probably also decided to mass produce and deploy cheap Battlemasters all over their own country and GAPA to fuel their propaganda and to impress the citizens. Battlemasters look kinda sturdy in the outside so it would probably serve the propaganda purpose well and help China to win the minds and hearts quickly. It's not like GAPA citizens would test the Battlemaster's armour quality with a RPG or something.

Posted by: samboo18 4 Jun 2012, 5:19

First off just wanted to say thanks to the SWR team for this fantastic mod. Been a long time player of Shockwave and always considered it the most polished and professional mod out there for Generals, ROTR is no different. Just one question am I able to have ROTR and Shockwave installed at the same time without causing any hangups? Cheers again for 2 fantastic mods.

Posted by: Warpath 4 Jun 2012, 5:27

Ok, so the US has restored at least restored some their infuence and military strength.

So whats the USA relations whith China and the ECA by the 2040s?

Posted by: MARS 4 Jun 2012, 7:28

Certainly not hostile, but the Europeans probably have some gripes with the Americans for abandoning them, so if the US show up asking if they could move back into Ramstein, the answer would probably be no. As for China, they helped the ECA get its shit back together under the Eurasian Unity League, which was unilaterally cancelled by Europe when they found they were strong enough to take care of themselves. The question remains how well the ECA manages to re-pay their debts to China or if China even wants to have them repayed anytime soon, but all things considered, they'd be somewhere between neutral and friendly. As for the US and China, they still have that love/hate relationship going on where they are economic competitors but at the same time economically interconnected. They create the Pacific Peace Alliance in the early 2040s, leading to the joint attack on Aleksandr's hidden base in North Sudan (shell map) which fails and puts a quick end to this alliance.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 4 Jun 2012, 8:36

^The shell map had units from the other Russian gens like Sentinel or the Spetsnaz. How would you explain that if it was Aleksandr's hidden base? Or was it a joint defense effort by all the Russian gens?

Posted by: Anubis 4 Jun 2012, 8:46

Maybe those are just placeholders. We still don't have each general's army. It is possible that in 2.0 the units in the shell map will be changed a bit. Maybe ...

Posted by: MARS 4 Jun 2012, 9:00

The shell-map gained that particular bit of story-importance a while -after- it was created, but since Sentinels and VDV units don't show up in large numbers, we could just assume that Aleksandr, while in
charge of the base and its defence, also managed to call upon some other Russian units. Naturally, this is just a very transparent attempt at having as many awesome Russian gadgets in there as possible^^

Posted by: GuardianTempest 4 Jun 2012, 9:30

Okay I got my laptop yesterday, now let's see what this bad boy can do.

Posted by: dangerman1337 4 Jun 2012, 9:58

Spetsnaz? I've never seen those in the shell map (though can't check since Windows 7 doesn't seem to like it as it always shows up the quickstart menu all the time).

Posted by: Warpath 4 Jun 2012, 10:03

Ooookay, go to your start menu and find the RotR folder, open the program With the name Rise of the Reds, there you can see then with their LMG's (can't remember the weapons name) and RPG's.

Posted by: MARS 4 Jun 2012, 10:31

Those blue guys at the base's defence line aren't Spetsnaz, they're VDV, aka the paratroopers you get from that airborne drop power.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 4 Jun 2012, 11:10

Those guys aren't Spetsnaz after all?

Anyways talking about the shell map, I just remembered a question that has bugged me since this release. Do you guys have any plans of changing the loading screen image (the one with the Kodiak, BMP, Berkut with the Russian emblem) in the future releases with a image that represents all the factions in the mod?

Posted by: MARS 4 Jun 2012, 11:54

Possibly, but it's not set in stone. Personally, I'd be in favour of having an image with the ECA on the left and the Russians on the right and preferably less heavy on the eye-straining red, but that's something for later.

Posted by: Alex1guy 4 Jun 2012, 14:11

I'm curious about the relationship between China and Russia. It says General Jin has been sent to "keep and eye on them" so is there tensions there?

Posted by: MARS 4 Jun 2012, 14:20

They're not outright hostile, but their relationships are strained. In real life, they're currently on okay terms with each other, but in Zero Hour, China basically took the fast track to becoming the leading global superpower in the wake of the GLA war while Russia's economy continued to grow in baby steps even though the country was mostly ignored by the GLA. Basically, Russia could no longer keep pace with China and thus stopped being a potential strategic partner in the eyes of Beijing. After Zero Hour, the Chinese lend a lot of cheap credits to Europe which, in turn, uses them to get fuel and raw material from Russia for their reconstruction efforts, which finally allows Suvorov's Russia to catch up. However, by the time they do that, China regards them as an economic competitor rather than a viable partner. Obviously, maintaining a fair balance between two such juggernauts is difficult and none of them wants to be the junior partner. The incident involving Aleksandr's hidden base sparked a short military conflict between Russia and the US/China which was contained in Africa, ended in Russian victory and left both China and the US humiliated.

As for Jin, he keeps his eyes on Russia because there seems to be a growing Chinese minority population in Eastern Russia which, depending on the scale we're talking about, may also result in ethnic tensions.
China seems to be working on a 'civis romanus sum' kind of policy in which it seeks to guarantee the safety of its citizens even outside the Chinese homeland.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 4 Jun 2012, 14:41

^China sent Jin all the way out in the Russian border just to guarantee the safety of its people outside China? That's... surprisingly noble.

I thought they were planning to claim the heavily ethnic Chinese populated lands of Eastern Russia using any half-valid excuse they can figure out. And the Euro crisis is the perfect excuse. I thought they predicted the war and once/if Russia starts having a disadvantage in the war China would immediately attack Russia from the East to "help out old Euro allies" while they'll also happen to "liberate" some of their own people in the process.

And as part of this plan Jin was sent to spy on those lands in advance or better stir up some kinda Chinese nationalist insurgence so the population become hostile towards Suvorov and willing to merge with China. Considering Russia's "assimilation treatment" towards other cultures it would be very likely that the ethnic Chinese people there are already unhappy for a bunch of reasons.

Maybe I am a bit too cynical. xD

Posted by: Jester 4 Jun 2012, 14:56

A while ago I heard you mention that Russia will establish a beach head on US soil. I look forward to seeing this pan out and I'm expecting some really interesting and exciting lore. Could you shed any light at all as to what will happen during this confrontation?

Posted by: MARS 4 Jun 2012, 15:04

Well, this would all still be possible. If we decide to take the route and let the US and/or China intervene at some point, this particular course of action seems quite legitimate.



I hope this doesn't come off as a disappointment, but chances are there won't be such a thing of a Russian invasion on US territory - at least none that would be canon within the story; still gonna have something like a Washington-based skirmish map, obviously. But any mention of such events must have been quite a while ago when we still had a bit of a 'sure, why not?' approach to our story. But now, there've been so many games that depicted Russian attacks on American cities, it's become a trite cliché. Secondly, I would imagine that the Russians are busy enough dealing with the Europeans and the Americans are still hesitant as to whether they want to get involved or not. Provoking the sleeping giant was a very bad idea for the Japanese back in WW2 and the Russians in ROTR are obviously not suicidally overconfident to the point of just launching a US invasion for the hell of it. The fact that they're strategic allies of the South American Pact, however, still allows them to deter the US with the mere -possibility- that there may be Russian forces in South America that could push north the moment Washington decides to aid the Europeans; kind of like the concept of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_in_being applied to ground forces in that theatre. In fact, the alliance with South America may have been created with this -exact- purpose in mind: Set up what could be regarded as a threat to US homeland security in order to make them think twice about deploying forces to Europe.

DO rest assured though that there will be an...'incident' during which Russian special forces enter the American homeland for a certain reason though...

Posted by: SorataZ 4 Jun 2012, 15:43

I'd be more interested in seeing the inverse, then again that's equally unlikely for the reasons MARS already stated plus the whole "USA need to recover" thing.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 4 Jun 2012, 15:49

IMO US probably wouldn't bother to help the Euros directly unless they have a good chance of gain from it. Considering ECA's pride they wouldn't agree to allow US to establish bases in their territory or be influenced by US that much even if US helps them win the war so US would have little to gain. US just got back on saddle and kicked up with full steam ahead in 2040s. It would be far too big of a risk to take part in the war immediately after total recovery and risk losing decades of recovery efforts and returning to their post ZH crisis. For all they are concerned there might be Ruskies in South America and if those Ruskies along with their SA pals storm to the North, they'll at least totally destroy Mexico which is now an important source of cheap labour for the US.

Considering all this I can see the majority of US people and thus their government would be willing to mind their own business and expansion. They'll say "let the UN handle this", which would actually mean "kiss my a*s. I'll play diplomacy and try to increase profit in world business to fully establish my old status while you newbie biggies kill each other." Even if they move out it would be when both the Russians and the ECA take quite a lot of damage.

China on the other hand would have their reputation to look after as the (perhaps self declared) global peacekeepers. Plus they would have chances of gaining Russia's Eastern territories by attacking Russia.

That's good to hear. I always thought of Jin as the head of secret police, he would be pretty much the "lawful evil" type. He would look after his people but he wouldn't be nice enough to just sit and guard his kin who are working for another land. He would definitely have some kinda plan cooking in his head.

This sounds really interesting. Considering post ZH state of US we can assume now US's home defense is as impenetrable as it gets. Russian special forces would have to be really crafty to be able to get in UIS undetected and this reason should be something huge for them to risk such actions. After all like you said, waking up a sleeping giant is a huge risk.

edit - Personally I love the sound of reverse. It's about bloody time we see a reverse. But yeah the chances are slim.

Posted by: aeroth 4 Jun 2012, 18:59

Btw i saw that the eca power source will be something called "solaris?" don't remember the name exactly.

The source of inspiration for the alternate energy is this ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_European_Torus

Posted by: MARS 4 Jun 2012, 19:08

No, the European power source is not based on nuclear fusion. In fact, the name Solaris should be a bit of an obvious give-away regarding its nature.

Posted by: Generalcamo 4 Jun 2012, 19:46

Will the outer US states and territories, like Alaska, Hawaii, and Guam be involved in an invasion?

By the way, regarding future release plans, will we have one more version with the ECA before 2.0? Or will it be a stretch to 2.0 from now on?

Posted by: aeroth 4 Jun 2012, 19:48

well natural fusion is actualy the sun...so i tought solaris = sun power )

so they're power plants are actualy big solar plants
like http://gehkados.blogspot.ro/2012/04/worlds-largest-solar-power-plant.html

?

Posted by: Generalcamo 4 Jun 2012, 19:51

Actually, the Solaris is a Satellite in space, that collects solar energy, like the power plants, but in SPACE. The satellite then beams down the energy to a relay station, which then provides power to the entire base.

Regarding the Solaris, how much power will the ECA's power plants acquire?

Posted by: aeroth 4 Jun 2012, 20:56

that explains also how the superweapond work !

p.s. gdi ion cannon undercover

Posted by: MARS 4 Jun 2012, 21:09

That part is not entirely finalised, but we always leave ourselves the option of having smaller patch releases in between.
In fact, we're currently working on one of those, which will contain fixes for the most pressing bug issues as well as some small new additions. After that, we're on to the ECA!

Posted by: Comr4de 4 Jun 2012, 22:27

Posted by: Generalcamo 4 Jun 2012, 22:37

So, one power plant gives 999999999 energy?

Posted by: The_Hunter 4 Jun 2012, 22:45

perhaps.

Posted by: Generalcamo 4 Jun 2012, 23:07

If you guys do that, please don't add a build limit. It would cause a lot of problems. Add a build limit of say, three. As one superweapon strike would bring all of the defences down.


Actually, here is an idea I just thought about while typing this post. At first, all the europeans have are Gas fired powerplants. These give 6 power units per plant. But, once the Tier 2 Structure is built, it unlocks the Solaris Relay, making them have unlimited power.

Posted by: Warpath 4 Jun 2012, 23:31

What was the result of the "Alaskan Incident", was the sattelite recovered or destroyed by the three opposing factions and how did the ECA and Russia infiltrate the US considering on of their reasons for retreating is to shore up homeland defense?

Posted by: Evan 4 Jun 2012, 23:59

Posted by: Comr4de 5 Jun 2012, 1:10

Majority of their defenses don't require energy.

It would be silly for an artillery crew to suddenly not be able to fire just because the lights went out. Unless they are afraid of the dark


All I will say is that the ECA Solaris program does wonders.

Posted by: Generalcamo 5 Jun 2012, 1:22

One more thing, in the real world, Egypt and Sudan have ties to the UK, Sudan is actually applying into the commonwealth of nations. Ingame, I see civilians clashing with the Chinese. Perhaps spice up the lore with a Civilian/Chinese/ECA conflict?

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 5 Jun 2012, 3:12

I hope no more build limit comes along the way. Nothing meant to anyone, it's just that I personally find build limits to be lazy and inappropriate balancing. Ironic that the first time I realised the problems of applying build limits was when I read a SWR member's comments/debate on Mod DB, I think it was in the TOPOL-M discussion.

Posted by: Alex1guy 5 Jun 2012, 4:52

Russia invading the US would be a logistical nightmare especially after invading Europe. COD 3 did it, and that made no sense whatsoever. I've never tried to invade the free world (except for that one time) but it would be something I'd space out, maybe one continent at a time.

Posted by: Warpath 5 Jun 2012, 5:19

The Russians won't last long, even if the overcome the problem about logistics they will face one hell of a resistance from armed civilians and remnants of the police (if any survived) , plus since their homland being attacked, the nearby National Guard units will fight fiercely.

Posted by: MARS 5 Jun 2012, 6:19

Hence why the US is not really getting invaded. The Russians are already making enough of an international pariah out of themselves by occupying Europe and in the event of a victory, they'd require decades to consolidate their power over what would then be their own personal Eurasia. It's either make or break: If they win, they get their chance to rewrite history in their favour and face the rest of the world with a fait accompli. If they fail, they will be set back to the 1990s and then some.

Posted by: Warpath 5 Jun 2012, 6:48

Considering that the ECA is still in debt to China they'll probably let this one go.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 5 Jun 2012, 7:06

^Plus the Chinese wouldn't wanna make trouble with the ECA right after they (along with the US) just got their arse handed down by Russia in the shell map battle.

Posted by: MARS 5 Jun 2012, 8:07

Right. The ECA is actually on okay terms with China in the sense that there've been no major affronts or outright hostilities between them and since Europe is actually doing quit well
before Russia invades, chances are they've been repaying their debts regularly as well. For all we know, the repayment plan may be quite lenient and last over a century if necessary.

Posted by: Warpath 5 Jun 2012, 12:31

Ok, so did the Chinese government help or support them?

Posted by: MARS 5 Jun 2012, 12:33

Of course. The Chinese basically helped the Europeans rebuild their economies after the GLA attack, as well as providing military manpower to maintain public order in cooperation with whoever took over control of the various countries after they broke out of the EU.

Posted by: aeroth 5 Jun 2012, 19:12

So if russia invades EU, China's interests in the region are dangered.
If EU is crushed no more repay for china
This could lead to a 2 fronts war for russia ?

Posted by: MARS 5 Jun 2012, 19:29

Seems like a logical cause and effect chain, but we're yet to reveal whether this is how it happens. It would certainly be a fair reason for them to enter the war at some point.

Posted by: Generalcamo 5 Jun 2012, 19:49

Nuclear Weapons: Why aren't they used by other factions? (In Lore)

In the REAL world, Russia, the USA, and Europe also have some pretty nuclear arsenals. In Game, we can assume the Chinese took the ECA's in their war against the GLA. But what about the USA? And Russia?

Posted by: MARS 5 Jun 2012, 19:58

Actually...The Russians still have the most sizeable nuclear arsenal, but they don't use them on a large scale because a.) that would be counter-productive if they want to capture territory b.) they don't want to give the US and China any funny ideas c.) anti-ballistic missile systems are in place, including the US Particle Cannons and d.) they're not interested in total extermination. Thus, nukes are limited to tactical weapons that will become available to Zhukov after a pivotal turn of events in the story.

The Chinese don't need any further discussions: They've got nukes, they used them on the GLA, but now, they care too much about their global image to use them on Russia. Plus, they're not in the war yet. The United States still have their own nuclear weapons, but on a tactical level, they use Particle Cannons for immediate, uninterceptable strikes because they wouldn't trigger a nuclear response. The ECA's nuclear arsenals belong to Britain and France and are relatively small by comparison to the other factions. The problem with them is two-fold: An attack on a Russian city would probably trigger a nuclear response while a tactical strike would basically force them to detonate nukes on their own soil. There'd be no reason for the Chinese to take them away from them during the GLA war either.

Posted by: The_Hunter 5 Jun 2012, 19:59

The russians get nukes in form of tactical ICBM's altho they will be exclusively availible to General Zhukov (tactical balistics)
There will also be others but we will not reveal any details on those just yet

Ninja'd

Posted by: Alex1guy 5 Jun 2012, 23:30

Oh this sounds interesting

Posted by: Warpath 5 Jun 2012, 23:38

About the US nuclear arsenal, if the Particle Cannons acts as their missile defense system and tactical strike, won't it make the US nuclear missiles a trump card in case of a nuclear attack?

Posted by: Alex1guy 6 Jun 2012, 3:12

Basically they are untouchable in a sense because they can use them without fear of massive nuclear retaliation. But I think the US government would still have a stigma against using nuclear weapons, even if their Chinese allies don't.

Posted by: Warpath 6 Jun 2012, 5:34

I don't think the new US government and military will have that stigma.

Posted by: MARS 6 Jun 2012, 7:00

What makes you think so? The Americans are facing tough times after Zero Hour. Tough times that could either make them outright fascist or make them a lot more humble and responsible once they're back on track. Whether it's going to be the first or the second is yet to be revealed since there hasn't been much lore on the Americans yet. Just because they could doesn't mean they have to exploit their nuclear superiority for the mere sake of making some ham-fisted 'gnaaarrr, evil capital-fascist America' statement. Chances are they would only deploy nuclear weapons in a first-use scenario if their own homeland was being massively invaded. Plus, the time between the end of ZH in 2028 and the outbreak of the European War in 2045 is a total of 17 years which is enough time for at least four presidential elections, assuming that none of the presidents outright abolishes democracy which, even at this point, would be kinda out of nowhere.

Posted by: SorataZ 6 Jun 2012, 9:53

It doesn't work this way regardless because the Constitution is untouchable; and the US military vows on it/freedom for that matter, not a specific organisation or person. In other words, trying to abolish freedom and democracy -> civil war.

Posted by: Warpath 6 Jun 2012, 10:36

True, unless if a few "radical" government and military officials launches a coup against the current government.

Posted by: Alex1guy 6 Jun 2012, 11:54

So yeah civil war

Posted by: Warpath 6 Jun 2012, 12:04

Not if the military and most of the US population supports the coup.

Posted by: Alex1guy 6 Jun 2012, 12:47

I guess, but people in the US and other nations rarely agree on anything at the best of times.

Posted by: Knjaz. 6 Jun 2012, 13:02

If they're untouchable, they wouldn't hesitate wiping out their enemies off the map once and for all. It'd literally, first time in the history of humanity, allow one nation to dominate Earth without any, even potential, opposition. Looking at the USA doctrine and way of actions in last 100 years, that's something they'd go for, 100%.
Saying that their religion or ideology or anything else prevents them from doing so... well, I'd say that's something that can change overnight.

At same time, Russia wouldn't invade Europe under such conditions, and would go absolutely crazy about restoring the M.A.D. environment and pushing it's research to counter USA anti-ABM capabilities, no matter what. Because it'd literally face a total destruction at any given moment.

Thing is, if we follow RL path, Russia so far is most advanced country in terms of anti-ABM capabilities and also possess the biggest tactical nuclear arsenal, USA is most advanced in ABM capabilities (although the gap with Russian ABM technology based on the use of missile technology is really small), and China falls waaaaaaaaay behind Russia and USA in both quantity and quality of their nuclear arms.

So far behind that even if they'd want, they wouldn't be able to close the gap in 10 years, especially technological one.

I'm drawing this knowledge from the actual logic under which Russian military planners were operating. Don't have access to anything closed, of course,, but if you closely watch things during few years and speak with people, you start to understand the way they see matters of national security pretty well.

In case there will be a real threat that something is going to nullify Russian nuclear potential in nearest future, a first strike, before the nuclear potential will be nullified, is guaranteed. After all the necessary diplomatic and not quite diplomatic warnings, of course, like blowing up multiple nukes in high atmosphere as a demonstration of intentions. I know it may sound a bit shocking for the civilian folks, but that's the way things are.
Military logic dictates that in case the adversary (in current times - USA) creating a real threat of nullifying Russian nuclear potential (not gonna happen in next 20-30 years even with current tech development, but still. In an unimaginable case that that happens) there're 2 possible scenarios.

*We do nothing and they strike first, when our retaliatory strike won't be able to deal unacceptable damage to the adversary.
*We strike first, when our arsenal will be able to deal unacceptable damage to the enemy, and do the "counter-military" (контр-силовой, in russian designation) strike to reduce the amount of stuff that we receive in the end.

In both scenarios, we suffer great losses, but in second scenario those losses are less due to counter-military strike, and our adversary(-ies) are kinda dead. While in first scenario, they erase us from the map of the world, while being relatively unharmed.

Posted by: Warpath 6 Jun 2012, 13:29

They are NOT untouchable, with the Russians vast stockpile of nukes and the fact that their is no such this as a full proof missile shield at least some of them will reach their targets.



Since the US and ECA are no longer allies the Russians can and will invade, though there is a possibility that they are researching ways to counter the US Missile defense.

Posted by: MARS 6 Jun 2012, 14:02

Actually, there has been an earlier occurence in history during which the US pretty much HAD total nuclear supremacy over the rest of the world. This was during the late 40s/50s, when the American nuclear arsenal grew exponentially while the Soviet one was still in the earliest stages. And unlike the Soviets, the Americans would have had plenty of heavy strategic bombers to deliver the bombs to any important Russian city of their choice. To top it all of, this was during the 1950s, i.e. the time when McCarthyism was in full swing and rabid 'red scare' anti-communism was at an all time high......And yet, not a single nuke was dropped even though the Americans could have ended the Soviets right there. USA-criticism or not, most people, including American leaders, generally don't want to go down in history as the ones who launched a total genocide against an enemy who couldn't even do shit to defend themselves. No one would ever cheer for a boxing champion if all he did was beat a blind man to death.



Lore-wise, ABM defences are actually somewhat accounted for. The US obviously have their Particle Cannon. The Russians -accuse- the Europeans that their Solaris can be a threat to their nukes as well and chances are the Americans, regardless of the current relantions between them and the Europeans, would use their Particle Cannons to intercept Russian nukes -even- if their targets are in Europe, simply because of the off-chance that some of them -might- also be heading for the States. Thus, there's no reason for the Russians to launch their weapons at this time. At the same time, however, the Russians do actually have a defence in the form of their Blackout Nodes which essentially create black spots on the map that cannot be penetrated by superweapons or gen-powers in a game between human players. In story-terms, this probably translates to some kind of ultra jamming system that would make any weapon headed for Russia uncontrollable, untargetable, unable to initiate the detonation etc. via electronic trickery. The only faction - aside from the GLA, obviously - that isn't specifically stated to have ABM capabilities is China, but who knows what kinda stuff we might give them in-lore at some point.

Naturally, we cannot guarantee that the -entirety- of our universe holds up to total professional scrutiny, but the basic premise of this mod (i.e. Russia invades) has been around since its inception a decade ago and these are all things that you have to accept as a given, suspension of disbelief and all, because otherwise there wouldn't be a plot.

Posted by: SpiralSpectre 6 Jun 2012, 15:00

Man, I am falling behind in this convo. :S

Anyway what about the all the faction's, specially the Russian's, anti satellite ballistics? Solaris is one of Russia's headaches... didn't they try improving their capabilities so they could blast it down from space if necessary? They could have a similar attitude about America's Particle Cannon, their relation was never that good and recently they went through a war against US and China.

Posted by: MARS 6 Jun 2012, 15:04

Right. The Blackout system is in place to ensure that none of these orbital weapons (and by extension, ballistic missiles) can harm them, but in order to actually
take them down from orbit...well, there will be some implication in-lore later on. ASAT technologies do exist, but their use would obviously count as an act of war.

Posted by: Knjaz. 6 Jun 2012, 15:04

Well, thing is, in the mentioned period their supremacy, the delivery methods, nuke production capabilities and nuclear warheads strength, amount of available intel, other factors - weren't overwhelming enough to guaranteely stop Soviet war machine, in their eyes. It was far, very far from what can be called "Overwhelming".

Afterwards Soviets got their own nuke, and total uncertainty about Soviet nuclear and delivery capabilities during early 195x made such endevour extremely risky as well. The amount of knowledge they had about each other was nothing compared to how it is now.

And even with that in mind, USA, up until to the point where it became clear that Soviets got their own nuke, had multiple first strike plans against the USSR during the years of their nuclear monopoly, from 1945 to 1950.






As for the game itself, and it's plot - well, that's why I specifically said I'm talking about Real Life. It's your game (your modification), it does not promote realism too much, and you can shape the story and the way things work as you wish, nothing against that.


As for Black-out nodes/Particle Cannon, again - inRL, it'd be impossible to use them against enemy superweapons/incoming ballistic missiles.

Particle cannon targeting system is nowhere near being enough to track a target going at hypersonic speed, especially when each of that target turns into 10-20 more with same signatures that makes target selection a real nightmare (that's the basic ABM penetration methods that Soviets were using in 197x, and this is something Russia paid special attention even in 1990s, when country was in catastrophic situation, so the R&Ds were still going.), and I doubt it can take out few hundreds of missiles even during their boost phase, (that takes just few minutes), being launched from the area as big as 1/6 of the world, including polar regions. Realistically, even if you create a laser capable of taking out ICBM, it's a nightmare to make it work against technologically advanced opponent, when you take everything into equation.

Not mentioning simple trick of blowing up a nuke on the orbit not far from that satellite, or ramming your satellite into it, or just plain shooting it down with a missile (even Soviets had these anti-satellite things launched from planes, as rumored - and S-500 is confirmed to have a requirement to reach low orbit with one of it's missiles)

And EW nature of Black Node... well, to say that it can prevent Particle Cannon from being used against it can mean 2 things - either it works on the principle of some sort of "focused rays", so it "targets" Particle Cannon satellite, or that thing is so tremendously strong it can actually cover a small country, along with frying up it's electronics.
Or it's some sort of extraterrestrial tech that just shut downs everything around it. Most plausible explanation, btw. (well, it can explain warheads not detonating - warheads that are designed to withstand EMP wave from Nuclear blast and the blast itself, but can't explain protection from Particle Cannon)


But then again, it's just a game, and I have nothing against the Sci-Fi weapons or something like that. I just pointed out some differences of RotR Russia's logic from the one it's usually using, if we accept that USA advanced THAT much in energy weapons and ABM tech.

P.S. That being said, the RotR Russian faction quite well represents the actual Russian Army. With the exception of lack of nukes, that it'd really heavily rely on in case of large scale conflict (but that's in case of defensive war. The explanation of why Russia does not want to use nukes on Europe makes sense, partially.), and units like Sentinel/Tesla stuff.

Even the Golem, that you draw off from old Soviet experimental model, very well represents the requirements for the actual future MBT Russia is making in its stats (i.e. high level of autonomy in very hostile environments - which translates into requirements for crew to be able to stay in the tank for up to 2 days without leaving the vehicle) also special armored capsule in which crew sits, very heavy armor combined with mobility and firepower.
I'd only add the "radiation/toxin" resistance upgrade for Russian vehicles since Russia and Soviets always emphasized on their abilities to conduct military operations in the enviroment of global thermonuclear war, and make the Sentinel into the way Object.195 should've been, and it'd be it. Although, Golem with it's stats is literally the equivalent. (no, I'm not proposing you to change anything at this stage of the mod development, just saying. Plus, I'm not sure how some of this would affect balance, probably in the bad way. Realism is good, balance is better.)

Posted by: aeroth 6 Jun 2012, 21:29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lITBGjNEp08

The actual russian army is made of light cheap easy to mantaign tanks. The russian t 90 series and the t 80 are way lighter and slower and outgunned compared to the nato tanks (m1a2,lepard2,challenger2,leclerc)
Russia does not uses a big tank because it does not need one, nobody is gonna invade russia with tanks anymore.
They're only concerne is air, look at they're investments pak-fa, s-400, they even cancelled 2 tank designs the black eagle and the t 95 because of funding problems.

in the georgian war russia only used old t 72's not even one t 90 or t 80 because russia does not afford to deploy them

So you are wrong the rotr russia is actualy the opposite of current russia army. No big tanks for real russia

Posted by: Knjaz. 6 Jun 2012, 21:57

Wrong. Very wrong. Term "armored volume" tells you anything?
And about not uses a big tank cause it does not need one - nobody is gonna invade russia with tanks anymore, thats just blew my brain away.



Again, wrong. Maybe I'll explain few things later, but I'd better give you this link.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/army-security-forces/t-90-comparison-western-armour-5288-3/

That's a discussion you can consider unbiased. There're another ones, but you'd consider them biased, because they're in russian, and nobody believes people when they're talking about their own tech.
While they did miss out few things, or plainly didn't have access to them (just like I don't have access to them and can only speculate on what people who have that access say, and they'll never give you exact info, cause they don't want to end up in a jail), you can still create a good enough picture.
Start reading from Page 3, this is were more or less unbiased discussion starts.

Posted by: Alex1guy 7 Jun 2012, 5:33

For the record, the Particle cannons act a missile shield because they can blast launch sites and naval capital ships in an instant, assuming there is coverage is what I think is meant.

Posted by: MARS 7 Jun 2012, 8:06

The in-game Russians may have given up on the Black Eagle and T-95, but in return the -entirety- of their forces is now equipped with tanks that are at least equivalent to the T-80. Fun-fact: A looong time ago, we actually considered having the T-80 as their standard MBT and the T-90 as a special replacement for General Zhukov. But since the vehicles are relatively similar, we largely based our Kodiak on the T-80 and gave it a generic name that allows the possibility that it's still somehow an upgraded T-80. What we might do at some point though would be to create a purely visual Kodiak variant that resembles the T-90 with its differently shaped turret and randomise them akin to Technicals. That way, -all- Russian MBTs would be at least as good as T-80s or T-90s.

Posted by: aeroth 7 Jun 2012, 9:38

ahahaha formul link ))) that's so cute

let's look at leopard 2 and t 90

leopard 2 -> 62 tons , 72 km/h
t 90 -> 45 tons 60 km/h

mobility goes to leopard 2


gun:

t 90 - 2A46 (D-81T) is a 125mm/L48 shorter gun so lower penetration ,accuracy and range (usualy the first tank to hit wins)
leopard 2 : Rheinmetall L55 120mm better gun in all possible way

the extra 5 mm only make the round heavyer and shorters range that's why russian tanks now shoot atgm rounds

gun goes to leopard 2

ammo :

german uses DM 53 round at 1 750 m/s more then enough to turn any tank on the planet in molten mettal

russian tank uses 9M119 Svir and 9M119M Refleks witch are laser guided missles. the new leopard 2 a7 has lower radar and termal signature so the atgm can't lock on it
also the smoke countermeasures are overpowerd against any atgm round

so rounds goes to german tank also


armor :
Against Kinetic Energy
leopard 2 - > turret 590-690 , glacis 600, lower front hull 600
t 90 -> turret 420 (920 with era), glacis 670 (710 with era), lower front hull 240

and era was renderd useless by tandem rounds so the era only counts if it fights another russian or chinese tank.


http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/main.html
http://www.tanknutdave.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

greek trials tank

Leopard 2A5: 78%
M1A2: 72%
Leclerc: 72% t
Challenger-2: 69 %
T-84: 47 %


challenger 2 was using old rounds at the trials

and you can google other info

Mostly i used numbers not opinions

Posted by: MARS 7 Jun 2012, 10:04

Ugh...The RL tech talk again...

Just because the Leopard is faster doesn't necessarily mean it's better in this regard. The fact that the T-90 is significantly lighter also means that it
would probably be a lot more controllable when changing directions at high speed than the Leopard which has greater inertia due to its sheer mass.



Unlike the Leopard, the T-90's gun is actually fed by an auto-loader, which eliminates the need for a fourth crew member, allowing the turret section to be significantly smaller and thus giving it a lower profile, which
is an advantage that may not apply to the effectiveness of the gun, but works in favour of the tank as a whole. It also means sending only three rather than four grievance letters to families if the thing gets fucked up.



Some of the T-90s payloads are also DU-based though and unlike the Leopard, it can fire ATGMs -at all-, which may prove to be an advantage under different circumstances.
For example, they can be used against low-flying helicopters which, again, may not place it above the Leopard in a pure tank-on-tank comparison, but it's a situational advantage nonetheless.



Tandem rounds are nothing new; the Russians use them as well and the Leopard doesn't even -have- explosive reactive armour to begin with.
The T-90 can also use the Arena system to protect itself from AT-missiles. It uses both active and "passive" armour whereas the Leopard is pretty much entirely reliant on the effectiveness of its composite armour.
This is due to the fact that Russian tanks are designed to be lighter, so their lack of "passive" armour needs to be complemented with active protection systems, which also makes it easier to mass-upgrade them rather than building entirely new tanks.



Of course the Russian tank -has- to look really shitty by comparison, because unlike the NATO models, it's designed under a completely different premise: Cheaper, lighter, smaller, easier to mass manufacture. This isn't just a video game thing: Since the Cold War, NATO tanks have been designed to have greater survivability and be overall better in every category than Soviet/Russian tanks, but at the same time more expensive and a much greater loss if you lose them. Russian tanks were designed to outnumber NATO tanks and overwhelm them, not go toe-to-toe with them. Losing a few T-80s probably wouldn't have hurt the Soviet Army as much as loosing -fewer- Abrams tanks would have hurt the US Army if things had gone sour in the 80s. This isn't only about who has the better tank in a 1-on-1 comparison. Total warfare is about who has the greater industrial output, the greater ability to replenish losses to create the illusion that they are meaningless, the effect casualties have on the morale of your people etc. You're making quality comparisons and come to the conclusion that the Russian tank has to be inferior to every Western tank in a 1 on 1 situation, but that's pointing out the obvious because it wasn't even -meant- to be used like that. You have to understand that there are entirely different doctrines and design philosophies in place here, so it's an 'apples and oranges' comparison.

Posted by: Knjaz. 7 Jun 2012, 10:12

Now, I'llcomment a little more on that. Let's start from the end.



One of countless myths.

58th Army (the one that was positioned in North Caucasian Military District, currently called Southern MD), due to the nature of the operations it was conducting, was the least equipped army in the RA, with most outdated arsenal. You see, you do not need tanks with latest thermal imagers, top-notch explosive-reactive armor combined with latest APS to bash poorly armed and scattered guerilla formations. Old T-62 (currently phased out, completely), and T-72s were doing the job just fine. In short, the active part of military operation was long over, and it was mainly SpecOps job at the time, that were, sometimes, calling for heavy fire support (for example, when bandits would fortify themselves in a house, they could just call in the tank and blow it away)

After the 888 it changed, though, and it got re-equipped. Russia considers that there still is a probability of conflict with regular army, on that Direction. The process of re-armament of 58th is also meant to prevent that from happening.
One of countless myths.



Black Eagle was never meant to be an actual tank that would go into production. At best you can call it a technology demonstrator. Also, such designation was created by journalists or the factory, and never existed in official MoD documents.
Now about Object.195 (that is called T-95 by journalist, while at same time proper designation is Object.195), fully completed it's R&D cycle. But due the complexity of the vehicle it could not be effectively mass produced at current technological level of MIC (Military Industrial Complex), that translated into requirement for insane amount of investment into industrial base. The prototype itself was also extremely expensive - 400 million roubles, that translates into 12 million dollars. The tank featured (compared to current designs)

-152mm smoothbore gun. (that thing is a guaranteed kill for any tank in the world, even when hit into frontal armor)
-Uninhabited tower
-Very advanced FCS systems.
-Crew being located in the armored capsule inside the tank, to increase it's survivability in case of penetration (becuase in many cases, when tank's armor is penetrated, crew is being wounded by shards from the tank armor itself, not from the penetrator)
-Autonomy - i.e. crew could stay in tank, without leaving it, for 2 days. That requirement directly corresponds with the emphasis Russian army puts on it's ability to fight in the environment of nuclear war with the mass use of WMDs.
-very heavy armor.
-stronger engine, obviously.
-Don't remember about remote controlled machinegun - if it was standard 14.5mm, or 30mm autocannon.

It was decided that the need in new tank is not THAT great, to spend (tens) of billions of dollars on MIC, and then insane amount of money on the production of new tank. More then that, RA always pays special attention to cost-effeciency, that's why "overkill" solutions are unlikely to find their way into the troops, if they cost too much. This tank was an overkill in it's firepower, armor and electronics.

Instead, it was decided to create a downgraded version of that tank, currently known under the name "Armata". Why do we know it's downgraded version of Obj.195? Because you can't create a tank in 3-4 years, and that was exactly the time during which Armata is being "created". Afaik, it should go to trials in 2013.

What will be different from Obj. 195?
-125 smoothbore gun.
-Less advanced FCS. (Obj.195's were too expensive/complex).
-No 30mm autocannon. (afaik)
-Protection will get slightly downgraded (but as people say, right now they ended up with almost identical one to Obj.195)
Everything else stays the same (not sure about engine)

Funnily, as people say, the price won't change that drastically. Well, time will tell.



*facepalms*



Aha, and the main tactic of Soviet/Russian army are tank swarms that try to overcome enemy defences in frontal assault by burying them under own wrecks. *facedesks* Hollywood indeed produces epic movies that are pleasure to watch on large screen, but they shouldn't be taken seriously, you know.

Now, to the subject. I'll try to make it short, not to end up walls of text, so it may look a bit chaotic.
Your impression of lightly armed and armored russian tanks, most likely, comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_model and early T-72M1 models. Well, no sh, Sherlock, those tanks, sometimes locally produced, made out of steel ( I think I don't need to explain what does it means?), and using 40-year old Soviet ammunition are unlikely to stand up to M1A2s.
And even then, bulk of Iraqi's armored forces were T-5x, both Soviet and Chinese designs.

But that's unimportant, largely. What is important, is that most of those tanks were killed by aviation or artillery. In those conditions, even if you'd give em Leo2A6 (that is considered better then Abrams) they'd end up with same results.

Now, to the tanks of RuArmy itself. I'll start with armor. Do you know the term armored volume? It describes the amount of space that you have to cover up with armor. For T72-90 series it's 10.8m3-11.04m3, for M1 series, it's 19.7m3.
Now imagine the amount of armor and the resulting weight to provide same levels of protection for T series and M1 series. Then compare the weight of T and M1 series. Then add reactive armor on T series. And if you wish, you can add APS there as well (although, not many tanks were equipped with Arenas, afaik). It may surprise you, but T-90 has a frontal armor thickness comparable to Abrams.
You can tell me stories about cases of armor penetrations, that lead to ammo detonation (that has it's own nuances, btw. detonation pretty rarely happens instantly.), I can tell you stories (I think I'll be able to dig some photos as well) of T-72s survivng multiple RPG hits in Checnya. Even, if I remember correctly (not sure), without reactive armor.
M1 series are not THAT well armored, and have pretty high vulnerability from sides and rear.

http://s39.radikal.ru/i086/0904/53/c7400db98b64.jpg
The left zone you can penetrate with more or less good RPG (not 40 year old RPG-7 ammunition, ofc, and I'm talking about modern RPGs, not ATGMs), the right zone can be penetrated by 30mm AP rounds. A modern 120/125mm round will guaranteely penetrate side/rear projection.

The firepower. If we won't take 40-year old export model soviet ammunition into account, then there's a single problem with T series, that is connected with it's autoloader, that prevents the use of longer ammunition - and with the current lenght we almost reached physical limit on it's AP capabilities, and it's very hard to increase those without increasing the length of shell, as it was done on American tanks, as example. Still, the AP capabilities of latest ammunition are high enough to penetrate even frontal armor.
As for autoloader round length-limiting problem, it's being fixed on the latest T-90 series and, as far as I remember, even on T-72 series. (don't remember the exact name of that upgrade designation. Either Burlak, or smth else.)
And, just for your education, this is how frontal armor of the average tank would look like, with all the weakened zones.
http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/images/9/9c/T72frontLOS.jpg

(it's export T-72M1, old soviet export model, and I'm not sure if numbers are right because they wrote complete BS about M1A1 on another picture, but it's not about that)

So... few last points, and I'm, hopefully, done here.
T-72 has been initially produced as a tank that you can deploy in large numbers and mass produce cheaply (downgraded version of it, of course. In peace time it was produced at different quality/complectation, then it'd be at war-time), it's the continuation of T-62 concept.
T-80 is a continuation of T-64 (very advanced tank of it's time), and is designed as a "heavy, elite units". It's heavier armored, and it's more expensive.

T-90 is a continuation of T-72 legacy, as a transition design, until the new MBT arrives, but due to the events of 1990s, it had to become the main battle tank of RuA, being intensively upgraded in the process (for example, currently produced T-90s and T-90s from early 199x are very different in it's armor protection).

Why relatively light of Russian tanks? For higher strategic and tactical mobility. You see, there're not so many bridges in Russia that would be able to hold 60-ton Abrams, at same time, if you look at the map of European theatre, you'll notice the amount of rivers there. Same reasons go for BMP series, that are required to have amphibious capability, and have enough protection from artillery round shards. That's why they suck so much against IEDs, because in a war against regular army, % of losses from IEDs/mines is about 0.5-1% of total losses, and most losses are being inflicted by arty.

Uhh... I think I'll finish here. I definitely didn't describe some (or quire many) things - like doctrine, the way it affects vehicle requirements, Russian IADS and they logic under which they operate, etc, but if you want to read about the tanks - go read the link I provided. It's relatively good quality discussion. I don't want to post wallz of text here, nor I have time for it.


P.S. Yeah, forgot to say. Any correct info on tank protection levels and round penetration capabilities are secret, in both Russia and other countries. Especially in Russia.
You won't find open correct info on penetration capabilities and protection levels of Russian tanks and their rounds, and you can only compare export stuff

Posted by: Knjaz. 7 Jun 2012, 10:37

You know, that there's a difference between terms "Maximum Speed" and "Mobility" ?
About ranges - average engagement range on the European TOP does not exceed 3km, afaik. Or even less then that.



You won't find correct numbers on such tank characteristics. That's why I'm not providing any, they're meaningless anyway. You can compare armor thickness, but you can't compare the level of protection that thickness provides. As an example.

And, I don't want to turn it into another "X vs Y", I know very well what it turns into. So I'm out of this.

Posted by: Darkfire Angel 7 Jun 2012, 10:37

Le sigh. Not this again, these discussions have nothing to do with the actual game and frankly certain people involved in them refuse to accept any alternative to their arguments. I'm pretty sure there is a forum for you guys to discuss theses matters in, so maybe move the discussion there, instead of throwing up walls of text that actually have nothing at all to do with RotR. This is a game, not RL

Now that's over with. What are the actual political situations in the various areas of Africa? I would assume that Gla controlled areas are small areas controlled by rival warlords, fundamentalists, and the like. China and Russia keep a fairly firm grip on things and try keep those they support in power or in Chinas case maintain the illusion of a socialist one party state. Europe takes a similar approach but is more or less subtle about it as the need requires and the USA tends to allow a much more open and free democratic system and is the money behind the throne.

Posted by: MARS 7 Jun 2012, 11:08

Central Africa is pretty much under uncontested control of the Sulaymaan's GLA with him and his two big-shots Yusuuf and Ibrahiim on top of a hierarchy and several smaller cell leaders, warlord and dictators in the lower ranks. The fighting between them, however, is relatively limited since they're all working towards the GLA's overarching goals: Profit and to be a pain in the arse for the foreign superpowers. Anyone who steps too far out of the main line would probably get a visit from Sulaymaan's enforcers at some point. This is basically the heart of darkness: You can do whatever you want as long as you can phyisically stand up to what someone else might do to you in return with only one cardinal rule in effect: Don't piss off Sulaymaan.

As for Russia, they use the local governments of their territories as "partners" whereas the Chinese outright invaded and occupied their colonies and imposed their own order by virtue of Somalia being de-facto ungoverned. Their ideology has been purged of all references to socialism, for there is only 'the Party', and the overarching idol-like entity that is China itself. As a result, they'd probably face a lot of opposition in their colonies, but as always, they can resort to their standard tactic of throwing more men at the problem.

The main US territory is South Africa whose government is not to be regarded as a puppet, but as a close ally of the United States and by extension the NAU. Anything outside South Africa that is under US-control could be interpreted as being run by shady pro-US strongmen who allow the CIA to perform whatever black operations need to be performed outside the grasp of international authorities in their territory. Finally the Europeans...Well, we did learn that they got a hold of their African territories by conquest, but how they treat the countries will be left blank until we do an update about them; this particular question, however, has already been addressed in one of our internal drafts.

Posted by: dangerman1337 7 Jun 2012, 11:25

IIRC i've heard that Iraq's military is horrible even without considered the training and here's two funny quotes regarding Iraqi military effectiveness:





Iraq was just plain awful.

Posted by: Warpath 7 Jun 2012, 11:39

Jeez can you stop the Real Life military discussions, this is forum us about the SWR mod not a RL military vehicles and weapons forum.

Anyway is Taiwan part of GAPA, a US ally or neutral?

Posted by: aeroth 7 Jun 2012, 11:48

i gave u numbers u come with oppinions.

challenger 2 nitro spring hydropneumatic suspension. best accuracy at full speed.

the t-90 is lighter and slower so low engineering, and uses an old torsion bar suspension so low acuracy when moving + low speed when turning.

leopard 2 has the best mobility as far road speed,offroad speed,trench crossing,vertical obstacles,sloaps,warding and fowarding.

russia black eagle and the t 95 are soo good....that's way there are cancelled

the leopard 2 mounted an 140 mm for test since late 80's so think again about who's got the more advanced tank technology
nato tanks do not need a bigget gun yet. there is no armour on the planet that can stand a one direct hit from a m1a2,challenger 2 or leopard 2 a5+ !

These 3 nato tanks have best accuracy and can fire on the move with greath accuracy while russian tanks are way behind on that aspect.
Challenger 2 and leopard 2 have longer guns so longer range better accuracy = > they hit the russian tanks before they can even fire.


t 90 is a good tank but when compared to m1a2 tusk,challenger 2, leopard 2 a7 is way behind in every aspect possible
firepower,mobility,armour

the leopard 2 is a modular hi tech tank with state of the art in countermeasures, electronics it's a command center

leopard 2 a5+ also uses spaced armour vs heat rounds and tungsten vs darts

m1a2 uses uranium armour and chobham from the brithish challenger 2, chobham is by far the most advanced armour on the planet.
era is useless, tandem heat rounds !
also m1a2 and leopard 2 uses nera plates and era (and the russian do not use tandem rounds to counter it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Files/tanks.140mm-gun.kruse.pdf



so you're telling me that the most hot spot zone for russia the caucaz, army has older t 72 because they don't need better tanks there?
then were do they need the t 90's?
get real mate the t 90 and t 80 is too expensive for russia right now to deploy !

why did the americans didn't send patton tanks in afganistan ? they did not need better tanks


the russians are currently going for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Combat_Platform_T-99

witch nobody knows what's going to be, but i'm ready to bet it's gonna be another cheap light tank
russia based on tank numbers not quality.

this is the last post about real life tanks

Posted by: aeroth 7 Jun 2012, 11:56

why not make gla more undeground, i mean that they should not have teritory and they can pop out everywere ?

Posted by: Warpath 7 Jun 2012, 12:10

They would if the superpowers don't use tunnel detecting and counter tunneling techniques like (which won't be seen in game) the East Germans during the Cold War.

Posted by: Knjaz. 7 Jun 2012, 12:46

*facepalms*

Just these 4 points show that
1) you didn't read my post
2) you don't have a slight understanding on how the things in Russia are going, will be going, and were going.
3) you don't have a slight understanding on European TOP. (well, that again implies that you didn't read my post)

As for numbers and other points that you provided, I can ask certain people to give em to me. but then we'll turn this thread into complete nightmare, since it'll take time to go through all of them But why don't you go and read the link I provided above, with actual western military personnel discussing these matters, uh? Including battle-experienced personnel. I knew you'd consider me and my sources biased "per se", so why don't you go there?
EDIT: The tower has mock-ups placed on it, to cover it's contours. The real view of this vehicle is still secret. It's higher then T-series, but lower then it looks on these photos.
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/2//68/600/68600276_T1951.JPG http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/311/Fssja.jpg http://s46.radikal.ru/i112/1012/7a/b555bd1ec4ad.jpg


Does this forum engine supports proper "spoilers" ?
The ones when you can hide large amounts of text under 1 button. I'd like to hide walls of text I left here, but still leave them readable, if needed.



Are existing world powers making any attempts to root him out?



Because even USA scrapped their underground tunnel network plans for their ICBMs as cost-ineffective.
GLA would have no means to deploy tunnels on strategic level.

As a tactical defense grid in a small town - yeah, possible. Hard, requires ALOT of work (even if you're planning to use them for infantry only). But not on a higher level.

Posted by: Alex1guy 7 Jun 2012, 14:15

Can we stop with the tech talk please?!? Because there are a thousands of forums across the internet that discuss a tank's real life armour, tonnage, weapon capabilities, track type, smell, sound, ventilation exhaust shape and and the preferential color of the operator's caps. This is a discussion about a game that has gigantic laser beams shot from space, a China that uses nukes as liberally as one uses salt on chips and in a world Europe has been punched in the face and conquered by a group of hyper-organized super-terrorists who use weapons from the second world war. Much pretense of realism was thrown out the window a long time ago and is now festering on the pavement ten stories below!

So basically, it's a GLA "State" in name, but it's still far from anything anyone would call centralized based on the fact it is divided up among warlords and whatnot. Kinda like Tatooine from Star-Wars or something where the rule basically is do whatever you please just don't piss off the Hutts?

Posted by: MARS 7 Jun 2012, 14:26

Taiwan is actually a part of China itself in-universe. General Fai's description in the original ZH manual mentions him being involved in the "Taiwan conflict of 2018", preventing it from escalating to the point where it would involve other global powers. We basically just took that as a short-hand to have Taiwan annexed by China in universe. It's something that would have happened before even Generals, so we won't bother elaborating on it any further. So yeah, 'One China' policy for real now it seems. Do note, however, that our version of 2040's China actually annexed some other countries as well, making it look very much like the actual territorial claims of the ROC.



They've placed their shelters, command facilities, armouries, provisions and logistics underground, but this obviously doesn't extend to literal underground cities. Still makes it hard enough to find the actual GLA installations in Central Africa even if someone tried real hard though.



As it stands, the various factions occasionally do venture into GLA territory, but none of them goes on a major offensive. This is due to the fact that the GLA is literally in full control of Central Africa, which for all we know has been turned into a literal hell hole. No one, not even the Russians, wants to face the prospect of sending people in there because god alone knows what the locals might do to them and a total strategic bombardment is out of the question because as silly as it may sound, no one would want to deal with the political fallout of carpet bombing the entire Central African rainforest. Even though he's draining the country for oil, diamonds etc, Sulaymaan does seem to be clever enough to leave large forest preserves and endangered animals alone, if only to protect himself with the knowledge that no one wants to have that particular http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheDog moment on his hands for the time being. As such, everyone's mostly trying their best to keep the GLA isolated and contained as long as they don't stage another massive attack on Chinese/Russian/American/European cities. Do note that this policy is regarded with a degree of skepticism in-universe as well, as we're going to highlight at some point.

PS: Yeah, basically like Tatooine.

Posted by: Generalcamo 7 Jun 2012, 16:09

Does the Core Periphery Model still apply in this world? Or is it outdated here?

Posted by: MARS 7 Jun 2012, 17:15

That's...delving just a bit too far into political systems theory to be addressed by our story.

Posted by: aeroth 7 Jun 2012, 19:03

Mars this mean that the campaign will be like the dune 2000 campaign? afther each mission you can choose were u attack or defend?

if that is not the case the map with areas is not really important, only for matters concerning the story

Posted by: MARS 7 Jun 2012, 19:21

That's not how it works. The campaigns are basically just set up like the ones in Gens. You pick one and it starts a series of missions that will likely have some sort of intro video between each.
The other game mode that will be similar to the generals challenge however will use a large world map from which you select the faction you want to play for the challenge

Posted by: Alex1guy 7 Jun 2012, 23:52

Well in regards to China, I'd say it's more relevant than ever. They seem to be annexing everything around them as they get make more $$$.

Posted by: simeon5541 8 Jun 2012, 1:59

Just to say that T-84 is Ukrainian made tank.

Posted by: MARS 8 Jun 2012, 6:30

They've basically restored the Chinese borders of the old Qing Empire, which was thus far the largest incarnation of China ever.
Anything beyond that will only end up as part of GAPA though, because they obviously don't have historical claims for the likes of Vietnam, Cambodia etc.

Posted by: Alex1guy 8 Jun 2012, 6:49

That's a'lota China!

Posted by: Shockfan42 28 Jun 2012, 18:09

Why Russia was to attack to your best client in buy of gas and materials? It not fill the history... And the situcion in the another part of America,(Sudamerica), what is a IRL a productor for the economics of the countries of the whole world....(Really a attack of GLA or a new cell take foot in sudamerica can make a interestic point of conflict.).

Posted by: MARS 28 Jun 2012, 19:09

It's not entirely easy to discern what you're trying to say, but here's two answers to what I presume is your question:
- Assuming that you're refering to Europe when you talk about Russia's "best client of gas and materials", they are attacking them because said deals (which in RL are indeed helpful to maintain peace) are no longer in effect by the time the story is set. Europe has modernised itself and became self-sufficient and is thus no longer dependent on Russian oil, coal or gas supplies which sends the Russian economy into a downward spiral and sours their diplomatic relationships which eventually escalates into a full-blown war after a series of other incidents (see other updates).
- We are going to have a detailed update on the situation in South America soon. It's actually ready and waiting in our reserve, so stay tuned. As for the GLA, their influence has been reduced to Central Africa. They have a lot more control over that particular part of the world than they had over the various countries in Gens/ZH, but at the same time, everyone basically KNOWS they're there but no one wants to risk going in to finish them for good. As such, there won't be any GLA presence in South America. For one, we wanted to keep their involvement in our story relatively minimal since they've already had their big part as the villains of Gens/ZH and second, it would once again create that ridiculous image of hypercompetent fundamentalist who are free to move around fuckin' everywhere. In our story, South America would probably the least likely place that'd give a crap about the GLA and vice versa.

Posted by: step2ice 27 Aug 2012, 21:22

Ah, a great day it is indeed comrade. I've only got one question. Is the music from the OROTRMusic.rar file already included?

Posted by: The_Hunter 27 Aug 2012, 21:35

It is actualy included.

Posted by: Generalcamo 27 Aug 2012, 21:43

For a moment there, I thought YAY NEW RELEASE.. until I realized you are just trying to make the front page look less dead.