about ECA Options

[ZunZero97]

hello im have a question... why the players doesnt choose the faction ECA?

and wotan array are easily destroyed by aircraft(2 raptors upgraded takedown a wotan array t1 vs t2?)

1 harrier cannot take down a single MSTA why?

Grenadiers and heavy snipers need more optimization because sometimes looks moving, but do not.

[Kommandant Karis...]

They probably don't choose it because of how difficult it is to play effectively with them.

Doesn't stop me from using them exclusively, however, even though I'm actually rather bad at the game comparatively speaking.

[LayZboy]

They have to micro everything. Even stuff other factions get on automatic, ECA has to push the button every time as it where.
They are also a lack luster faction until they get a protocol, and typically have to turtle/Not be offensive early to mid game.

[Cracky]

you could also say that it takes ages for a mortar track to kill 1 msta while the msta kills the mortar track in 2 hits..

[XAttus]

ECA's main counter to artillery is the howitzer position, not the mortar track. Tigers are so strong at the moment that you should use those instead of harriers, though the nerfgun is coming their way. The mortar track is kinda a special case, it's really crap at dueling with other artillery but with battlenetwork and cluster shells it provides a really good DPS with insanse range.

2 Raptors can kill any T2 AA, the difference is that most of them do burst damage while the wotan array has continous DPS. For this reason the wotan is not effective alone, you should use skyshields & felins (they are really good too) and build wotans only when you can afford deploying them in large numbers. When you have a lot of them however they become insanely effective and unlike other T2 AA, they can even fire while on the move.

[Mizo]

Well OP you're an advid ECA player yourself
Some people just don't have the patience of being on the defence till rank 5.

[Miglanz]

Welcome to the growing Club of WTTECANSC!
(We Think That ECA Needs Some Changes)



People not choosing ECA anymore is a totally comprehensible (and predictable) phenomenon due to its lack of balance. Posted some (to me good) ideas how to possibly solve that problem here (Post #18 et. al.). If anyone in the Club of WTTECANSC is sophisticated enough, feel free to make a fanpatch with these or similar changes

This post has been edited by Miglanz: 17 Apr 2015, 12:23

[X1Destroy]

Decrease dead zone range for Claymore, please?

[Kommandant Karis...]

The Tigers are getting nerfed? :< I mean, I know they're good, but are they really THAT good?

[Composite armour]

The Tigers are getting nerfed? :< I mean, I know they're good, but are they really THAT good?

They're really good for the price.
I think it's just going to be a cost increase.

[Miglanz]

I think it's just going to be a cost increase.

If this is the only kind of changes we are going to see, then it
is advisable to say goodbye to our beloved ECA

Hope there will be some changes that make playing ECA attractive, too, not only changes that make playing them even more difficult than it already is

This post has been edited by Miglanz: 17 Apr 2015, 13:43

[Knjaz.]

They're really good for the price.
I think it's just going to be a cost increase.

yeh, it's only and only about the cost decrease they got.

Nice AoE, very good burst damage (~400), extreme AA DPS to the point where Hind will have 15% hp left after meeting a Tiger (if I remember correctly), and an ability to deploy air mines. (which got a good buff btw. If people aren't using them just means people are lazy, not that they're bad).

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 17 Apr 2015, 14:02

[Shiro]

There will eventually be better balance for everything. The ECA are by design a very experimental faction since no other faction's core concept was actually bunkering down, so doing balance with them is somewhat hard without breaking the whole "bunker" deal.

[Mizo]

There will eventually be better balance for everything. The ECA are by design a very experimental faction since no other faction's core concept was actually bunkering down, so doing balance with them is somewhat hard without breaking the whole "bunker" deal.

I have to agree. The fact that this game is pretty balanced with a minor hicup here and there is really commendable, specially since introducing ECA, a defensive faction, to an offensive oriented game without breaking the game would be an extremely hard feat to achieve.

[Rushing Rasputin]

Uh, Jagdmammuts are really meh without big numbers.

They do a great amount of DPS but DPS doesnt mean anything if they are dead. They are super susceptible against artillery, Raptors and PAK-FAs can kill them in a single pass, and would lose against a Paladin/Golem/ outright.

I think they might need more HP or decrease the reload rate?

[Nemesis]

I have said it time and time again that ECA needs a buff (not a nerf). I will give my opinion in short sentences to make it easier to read. It is commendable that they try to integrate a defencive faction to ROTR but right not ECA is seriously underpowered compared to anybody. At this point Russia has the best end of the deal with insane stuff. But that is for another topic. So without further udo here is what ECA needs and why, and what not.

1) ECA is a defensive faction. Okay, but that doesn't mean slow. Make them faster. The only unit that is fast is the attack dog... even the Harriers are slow. More importantly ECA dozer needs to become faster. For a faction that builds so much the dozers need to be in many places but they are super slow and the ECA player loses many key points to other factions because the dozer is not fast enough to secure early game key points.

2) ECA is a defensive faction... again... that means its buildings are super specialized. Ok no complaint... HOWEVER a defensive faction that has good defensive buildings needs to have its costs reduced by some percentage. Currently the ECA player bleeds dry because of the defensive buildings and suffers terribly in mobility (not enough money to buy units for an adequate attack force). An imobile faction is a faction with no surprise tactics, at all. So the game ends up in a long slugfest.

3) Protocol need GP. Ok obviously the dev team doesn't want to change that BUT move it in rank 3 not 5, for obvious reasons. Leave everything else as it is.

4) Rework on the Harriers. They are cost innefective. Too expensive for a lousy job. They are only good for early game but like I mentioned above we won't see them in games because of the lack of money. Late game... no. Personally I never build harriers anymore. I invest in tigers. Oh and their ability... doesn't save them. They have weak attack the fly over their targets thus they enter deeper into enemy territory and any t1 wrecks them apart. Late game with t2AA they could avoid them with their ability but you won't see them in late game cause they suck compare to tigers


5) Jagdmamuds ARE FINE! I understand their concept, they are supposed to be support tanks with leopards leading the assault. HOWEVER either give a late game upgrade to make leopards heavy tanks or introduce some heavy armor. ECA is a defensive faction with no heavy armor.... COME ON!!!! (protocols excluded) And before you mention the "build a manticore" thing check out number 3.... yeah... untill rank 5 ECA is supposed to be taking all the punches and give none?

6) Don't increase the cost of tigers. Unless you want to make ECA totally unplayabe, tigers are the only option at this point that provide ECA some decent firepower and mobility. Increase the cost without decreasing from other sources and ECA will have huge eco problems untill mid-late game.

7) Countering Mstas with howitzers... really? is that the best answer you can give? a howitzer costs 2.5k needs space to be built, has a specific firing field and most importantly fires IIRC once every minute and a half !! No, Howitzers and Claymores are designed to deal with blobs of units like China can field.

8) Shrink the firing deadzone of Claymore.

9) ECA is micro intensive! Okay I like that... BUT! IT IS NOT REWARDING. Let me give you an example. Since I put myself in the trouble of puting one felin in every leopard I expect to see felin stuff coming out of the tank. And yet a kodiak is still better. Kodiak has the antipersonnel role that felin offers to the armour of leopards anyway and still beat them... A minor tweak would be to give both antipersonel and anti air. Overpowered? Try it, do a beta testing and show us the results. I am suspecting it won't be.

10) Make Lynx faster and/or offer a flying transport to ECA. They are waaay to slow and need to upgrade their mobility.

11) Heavy snipers aren't heavy enough. Sort of like pathfinders at the moment without the cammouflage ability. Yeah they are supposed to be good vs Light vehicles, but I don't find them good in that role. Too slow, need to deploy don't gain invisibility although they are lying on the ground and their attack vs light vehicles isn't sattisfying, the LV can come and destroy what they want (buggies) and retreat with minor to none cassualties. Grenadier should also be tweaked to make them deadlier
OR
decrease their costs.


In a nuttshell ECA needs to become cheaper, faster and some units to be reworked to better fit their role.

[Mizo]

I have said it time and time again that ECA needs a buff (not a nerf). I will give my opinion in short sentences to make it easier to read. It is commendable that they try to integrate a defencive faction to ROTR but right not ECA is seriously underpowered compared to anybody. At this point Russia has the best end of the deal with insane stuff. But that is for another topic. So without further udo here is what ECA needs and why, and what not.

1) ECA is a defensive faction. Okay, but that doesn't mean slow. Make them faster. The only unit that is fast is the attack dog... even the Harriers are slow. More importantly ECA dozer needs to become faster. For a faction that builds so much the dozers need to be in many places but they are super slow and the ECA player loses many key points to other factions because the dozer is not fast enough to secure early game key points.

2) ECA is a defensive faction... again... that means its buildings are super specialized. Ok no complaint... HOWEVER a defensive faction that has good defensive buildings needs to have its costs reduced by some percentage. Currently the ECA player bleeds dry because of the defensive buildings and suffers terribly in mobility (not enough money to buy units for an adequate attack force). An imobile faction is a faction with no surprise tactics, at all. So the game ends up in a long slugfest.

3) Protocol need GP. Ok obviously the dev team doesn't want to change that BUT move it in rank 3 not 5, for obvious reasons. Leave everything else as it is.

4) Rework on the Harriers. They are cost innefective. Too expensive for a lousy job. They are only good for early game but like I mentioned above we won't see them in games because of the lack of money. Late game... no. Personally I never build harriers anymore. I invest in tigers. Oh and their ability... doesn't save them. They have weak attack the fly over their targets thus they enter deeper into enemy territory and any t1 wrecks them apart. Late game with t2AA they could avoid them with their ability but you won't see them in late game cause they suck compare to tigers


5) Jagdmamuds ARE FINE! I understand their concept, they are supposed to be support tanks with leopards leading the assault. HOWEVER either give a late game upgrade to make leopards heavy tanks or introduce some heavy armor. ECA is a defensive faction with no heavy armor.... COME ON!!!! (protocols excluded) And before you mention the "build a manticore" thing check out number 3.... yeah... untill rank 5 ECA is supposed to be taking all the punches and give none?

6) Don't increase the cost of tigers. Unless you want to make ECA totally unplayabe, tigers are the only option at this point that provide ECA some decent firepower and mobility. Increase the cost without decreasing from other sources and ECA will have huge eco problems untill mid-late game.

7) Countering Mstas with howitzers... really? is that the best answer you can give? a howitzer costs 2.5k needs space to be built, has a specific firing field and most importantly fires IIRC once every minute and a half !! No, Howitzers and Claymores are designed to deal with blobs of units like China can field.

8) Shrink the firing deadzone of Claymore.

9) ECA is micro intensive! Okay I like that... BUT! IT IS NOT REWARDING. Let me give you an example. Since I put myself in the trouble of puting one felin in every leopard I expect to see felin stuff coming out of the tank. And yet a kodiak is still better. Kodiak has the antipersonnel role that felin offers to the armour of leopards anyway and still beat them... A minor tweak would be to give both antipersonel and anti air. Overpowered? Try it, do a beta testing and show us the results. I am suspecting it won't be.

10) Make Lynx faster and/or offer a flying transport to ECA. They are waaay to slow and need to upgrade their mobility.

11) Heavy snipers aren't heavy enough. Sort of like pathfinders at the moment without the cammouflage ability. Yeah they are supposed to be good vs Light vehicles, but I don't find them good in that role. Too slow, need to deploy don't gain invisibility although they are lying on the ground and their attack vs light vehicles isn't sattisfying, the LV can come and destroy what they want (buggies) and retreat with minor to none cassualties. Grenadier should also be tweaked to make them deadlier
OR
decrease their costs.


In a nuttshell ECA needs to become cheaper, faster and some units to be reworked to better fit their role.

Ummm alot of the stuff you said, in my honest opinion, are not valid...

1/ If Dozers are fast, then Gun tower rushes would be extremely easy to pull off, which could potentially kill GLA in 1v1s with no effort whatsoever. ( Rush their base with a GT, along with Forts and Panzerfausts. They're speed is fine, albiet a slight cost reduction would help.

2/ The defences are fine, really. You don't spam defences everywhere when you play GLA , but rather only protect your buildings and supplies. Couple that with mines, infantry and early artillery units like pioneers, and Geopards should keep you fine. They're defenses are already pretty strong and good in doing their job. ECA's paystyle is meant to be played like that. You slowly crawl into our oponnents base and there's little he can do about it if you're fortified well.

3/ I'd Agree that Harriers need a small speed buff. They're not as cost efficent and easily gets killed by T0 AA Spam even when micro'd well. Tigers are always a better option. However their tanks are fine. Like I said, ECA isn't meant to be a faction that goes on fast offensive attacks. Their tanks have better range to compensate for their slow movements. Pandurs are not very slow, and are a viable option if you wanna go on the offensive.

4/ Protocols rank 3? NOPE. Protocols are too good, beleive me. They give so many benefits to your faction, it's kinda ridiculous. Being put as rank 5 requirement for late game would be the only way to balance it out without nerfing all the additions it gives. Ever tried killing an army with leopards shockabsorbers, jagmamuts supported by manticore defended by anvil bots all around? Heck a small group of those tanks could destroy most if not all large forces.

5/ Howetzers are fine, they counter artillery so hard, it makes Atillery near useless to build. You need to micro it though , fire one shell at a time , and need to have atleast 2 of them or more. This is without counting any motar pits. Motar tracks received massive buffs with their range, and pioneers+pandurs are deadly. Heck you can put a motar track in a viechle digout and it would be a force multiplier for your artillery defence. This is not mentioning the fact that you can buff howtzers even more with ammunitions.
The only thing I'd complain about is Claymores, they need to fire alittle bit faster, because they're pretty expensive , while not doing their job too well.

6/ Lynx are fine, really. They're pretty tanky for T0 infantry transport, and can be usefull throughout all stages of the game, by moving your grenadiers/ heavy snipers around to the front line, supported by medics. And they're decently fast, I wouldnt want to give them a speed buff since this would make lynx rushs even more deadly.

7/ Again ECA, doesn't really need any speed buffs, not major mobility reworks ( though they are getting something similar to tunnel netowrks in 2.0 so that would help). They're meant to be a slow crawling monster, unbeatable by a series of comined arms, mines and Artillery support, until the opponent has nowhere to run. They don't need heavy tanks since their armored tanks all get buffed by manticore protocol, they dont need mobility since Venom covers that as well, and they don't need better cheaper defences since well, ever played vs a player spamming Pandora's Neutron Mines? Goodluck breaking that.

[Mizo]

I'd argue that ECA's problem is just that they bleed cash way too fast early on. Maybe reduce the cost of their supply Center, or Dozers cuz they already need alot of cash to spend on Vital upgrades ( that are fairly not very cheap) and defences + ground forces.

[XAttus]

Some building cost adjustments and Tiger nerfs are already in the pipe folks...

There are 2 major issues with ECA right now: It denies USA too well, and Russia wrecks it with Topols.

That's all, Nemesis' wall of text made me smile but.. yeh I don't want to hop on the train and start proving why almost everything he wrote is invalid.

[Mizo]

Some building cost adjustments and Tiger nerfs are already in the pipe folks...

There are 2 major issues with ECA right now: It denies USA too well, and Russia wrecks it with Topols.

That's all, Nemesis' wall of text made me smile but.. yeh I don't want to hop on the train and start proving why almost everything he wrote is invalid.

Good to hear. This would help fix the money bleed ECA suffers from , as well as nerfing OP tigers, and making Hariers desireable again,
but how does it deny USA too well? Am curious to know
And yeah , theres nothing that can be done about the TOPOL issue without making topols obsulete.

[Rohan]

5/ Howetzers are fine, they counter artillery so hard, it makes Atillery near useless to build. You need to micro it though , fire one shell at a time , and need to have atleast 2 of them or more.

How can I do that ?

[TheSneakyGLA]

but how does it deny USA too well? Am curious to know tongue.gif

If you survive the little period USA can get you with mass microwave tanks, it cant really siege you.

[Nemesis]

Some building cost adjustments and Tiger nerfs are already in the pipe folks...

There are 2 major issues with ECA right now: It denies USA too well, and Russia wrecks it with Topols.

That's all, Nemesis' wall of text made me smile but.. yeh I don't want to hop on the train and start proving why almost everything he wrote is invalid.

I was expecting counter arguments. Nice to know I make people smile. Please hop on, this is supposed to be a forum to talk about these kind of stuff. I am curious to hear the opinion of a GLA pro whom I never seen playing ECA.
Imho you shouldn't make the tiger a worse option than harriers but improve the harriers to make them more desirable. Atm they have low survivability. And yes please work on the building costs and/or unit costs. I am not talking about any big cost changes just a little here and there.

Good to hear. This would help fix the money bleed ECA suffers from , as well as nerfing OP tigers, and making Hariers desireable again,
but how does it deny USA too well? Am curious to know
And yeah , theres nothing that can be done about the TOPOL issue without making topols obsulete.

Topols need to be deleted, they are breaking the game. If Russia has topols then perhaps USA should bring its tactical nukes etc.
Like I said, Tigers are FINE. I like using them and in no way they are OP. With two grumpl shots you can take a bunch of them down.

As for your counter arguments Mizo. Since we played a couple of games. I think you are being unfair here.

1)When I say improve the dozer speed I am not talking about 200% speed buff. Make it a little faster or better armored since they will be taking a lot of fire, either through repairing under enemy fire or trying to erect defences. Survivability.

2) I didn't complain about bad defences. I simply say that they are expensive. ECA is bleeding dry by making defences. I understand their concept and they should stay as it is. But maybe reduce their cost by 15% would make all the difference in the world. Then you could see turtling. Cause right now it costs them too much to turtle.

3) I agree with you.

4) Protocols are NOT fine. Rank 5 demands (a lot) blood from your opponents. Usually by the time you reach rank 5 the game in a 1v1 is decided. At this point they are simply speeding your victory. No they either need to go to rank 3 or completely removed from GP and replaced with a series of costly upgrades.

5) So far the best counter of enemy artillery is -like you mentioned- mortar tracks in vehicle digouts. The howitzers need micro-intensiveness which I am willing to give. Problem is that if you build 2-3 or 4 it will be tough to deal with multiple attacks. I guess a good counter would be, and I would like your opinion, is if the mortar pits could automatically switch fire-modes between explosive shots and the anti-infantry ones. Cause that's too much micro there.
Agree with claymores. they are underperforming.

6) Lynx are fine... hmm... tanky yes. but their speed is lucking. They are supposed to be a fast means of transport. GLA has plenty, USA too, Russia as well, China simply doesn't need, they have so many ways of being manouverable. ECA has only lynxes... perhaps add a t1 or t2 upgrade to increase the speed OR a big chopper, this way you could transport your snipers and grenadiers to a good position before mounting your attack in late game.

7) Didn't know about tunnel networks for 2.0 this might solve many problems they currently experience. As for the rest about protocols you are not correct. First of all you know you can' have all protocols at the same time so what you said is moot and by the time you reach the protocls the game has been in 90% decided.

All in all the general opinion is that ECA needs more bite and less paperwork. Try out some tweaks and see how they work. If protocol rank 3 is OP fine don't change it, if cheaper defences are OP fine don't change them but try them, beta test them.

This post has been edited by Nemesis: 19 Apr 2015, 12:50

[Miglanz]

As I stated in several threads ECA does also require too much skill.

It is not sufficient if a skilled player tells us "Tigers are OP " because he has played hours of hours of hours of ECA to reach that kind of skill.

Every other faction can be played at least reasonably decent after some hours. ECA (through their exaggerated micro requirements, high prices, etc.) requires a much higher skill if you want to play competitive. So the development being geared to pro players is not a wise choice at all, but for ROTR intended to be an Elite club for veteran ZH players.

I mostly agree with Nemesis. He's especially right with the game being already decided when Protocols finally get researched. Then stating that ECA already got its buffs with tanks (Manticore) and infantry (Venom) is ridiculous taking into account that you can't have both protocols at once!

Apart from that what Mizo wrote seems to be essentially inspired by the lore and not by virtually playing with ECA.

They're meant to be a slow crawling monster, unbeatable by a series of comined arms, mines and Artillery support, until the opponent has nowhere to run. They don't need heavy tanks since their armored tanks all get buffed by manticore protocol, they dont need mobility since Venom covers that as well, and they don't need better cheaper defences since well, ever played vs a player spamming Pandora's Neutron Mines? Goodluck breaking that.

As for the justification of my plea I want to quote RikerZZZ here:

I see what you're saying, but the reality is, turtling just doesnt work in this game unless the map is really biased against it. If you don't expand and aren't aggressive in the early game you don't succeed in the late game. That's a given as every faction, regardless of play style.

So this fancy "slow crawling monster" can't practically be used like it is intended. All these fancy defensive structures are mostly a tribute to the lore and won't change the fact that ECA needs some serious changes in their offesive abilites, otherwise that phenomenon of players avoiding to choose ECA will become normal behaviour to the point that ECA won't be played at all (at least by those people who still have business to do in RL and thus can't spend hours of hours of hours to learn and to polish the competitive play style of ECA).
Making a completely defensive faction for a completely offensive game in which the more defensive faction is predestinated to lose is somehow incomprehensible.

This post has been edited by Miglanz: 19 Apr 2015, 14:19

[{Lads}RikerZZZ]

How can I do that ?

Press the "S" key to stop the howie after every shot.

As for the justification of my plea I want to quote RikerZZZ here:

So this fancy "slow crawling monster" can't practically be used like it is intended. All these fancy defensive structures are mostly a tribute to the lore and won't change the fact that ECA needs some serious changes in their offesive abilites, otherwise that phenomenon of players avoiding to choose ECA will become normal behaviour to the point that ECA won't be played at all (at least by those people who still have business to do in RL and thus can't spend hours of hours of hours to learn and to polish the competitive play style of ECA).
Making a completely defensive faction for a completely offensive game in which the more defensive faction is predestinated to lose is somehow incomprehensible.

I think you're misinterpreting its 'use'.
First off, all the base defenses are brilliant at what they do. Base defenses don't win wars, and aren't meant to country armies. That was never in the ECA's design goals.
What counters armies? Actual Armies.
You have to remember that base defenses are a stalling technique. You set them up to slow your opponent down and hold them back whilst your army can get the drop and surround, or get into position, to destroy your opponents army.
The only exception to this is the Howitzer, which tbh I don't like because i find it very frustrating to play against, but w/e that's my problem.

Now, if you expect 5 Gun turrets and some howitzers to protect you from Sentinels then keep dreaming. You need actual units to counter late game armies.

So, then you talk about how ECA needs offensive capabilities. Does it tho?
Have you ever used pandurs to out kite an entire Russian blob?
Have you ever seen how good dog rushes are vs GLA?
Have you seen how good a Geopard rush is vs US players?

Want examples of these? Look in the replays. I uploaded a good one of Me VS Jie, and it shows how good early dog rushes are vs GLA. And yes, that entire strategy revolved around being aggressive as ECA. It's not hard to do.

The ECA is a very easy faction to learn and play, probably the second easiest in the game tbh. All it takes is a very base understanding of counter units and you're set.
Yes, ECA units cost money. Don't be shit and sacrifice them on suicide missions. When shit starts to get bad retreat. Its very simple stuff.
"oh my opponent is building tanks. Right, ill get Jagmummuts to kill it"
"Right, my opponent has air, better research star-streak and grab some geopards to move with my army"
"Oh noes, my opponent has artillery, better use my howitzers"

Its very simple stuff.
Watch replays. Learn how people use this faction and learn how to get better.
You can argue all you want that "oh, this faction takes effort, so people wont play it", well that's their fucking problem. This mod is aimed at the players who will learn how to do it, the players who will put the effort into understanding the faction and how to use it efficiently and effectively.
And even after all that, you know what you see all the beginner players playing as?
Not Russia.
Not USA.
Not China.
Always ECA.
So I'm sorry mate, but your complaints about

phenomenon of players avoiding to choose ECA will become normal behaviour to the point that ECA won't be played at all (at least by those people who still have business to do in RL and thus can't spend hours of hours of hours to learn and to polish the competitive play style of ECA).

is crap.
The devs will not alter their gameplay design to accommodate for laziness and a lack of commitment from some players.


Also, on the topic of the poor harrier, I don't know why you're all hating on it, Its a good unit. Just use them like raptors. Click the enemy unit, wait for them to launch their missiles, retreat back to the dep zone, if theres aa, and of you need to run use chaff.
If they don't have AA, just leave them on guard mode ever your enemies army and watch them cry. The speed is fine, too, they're fast enough to chase down must helis which is what you really need them to do.
My only complaint about them would be to buff their AA damage, because they take forever to kill anything in the air because of how the unit AI works. But this, again (As with most problems with the eca) can be fixed with micro.

This post has been edited by RikerZZZ: 19 Apr 2015, 15:11