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Discussion of the Week #2 Air mobility?More like airborne futility, Does this GP even lift? Maybe size isnt everything
(USA)Bruce
post 21 May 2017, 16:13
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So here we are, no more beating around the bush.
The elephant in the room, the thing that we all know "is there" but we don't really care enough to talk about for some reason.

Now Im going to give this simple disclaimer from the start:
This GP, air mobility maybe GREAT for you, It might be your game ender for all I know.Hell I can tell you that dropping a load of paladins and patriots into a hard army's base and watch it freak out is fun to see.But this discussion morely targets the PVP aspect of the game, this topic is meant for PVP for medium to high skill competitiveness.
If you are a PVE player and think its fine as it is, please leave a comment about it bellow too
A brief history of the Generals power;


Now Rise of the Reds never had a way to transport tanks till the mighty starlifter was introduced.Till then you could only carry infantry, back then US and russia were equal on this front. Blackhawn and Ospreys agaisnt hunchbacks and hinds. (Still they're apples and Oranges)


Then you got these baby's for 1500 from the airfield and everything changed.Oh and the littlebird got added too but that unit by itself is a mystery to begin with, atleast now its moved to the spec op generals power so you can use them with seals now I guess?


Then the hook got added that could also carry infantry but the starlifter then got a change on being called in rather then buildable from the airfield.

The pavelow was added as an infantry carrying transport and Starlifters could no longer carry infantry.This is my guess but most likely a place holder till the dronelifter was finished.(This is why theres no Image of it right now.)


Even if the pavelow was quickly replaced with the dronelifter (cosmetic change, no actual change in stats.More on that later)
The Pavelow coul carry a whopping 10 Infantry units (the most in the game) at a time.It also healed any units inside it (thou we all know its a one way ticket for them)

See in the base game Zero hour and Generals helicopter drops were about three things;
Oh and this isn't a "US buff" or "Zh is betta" thing, Its just thinking about the differences of the two and comparing them.
I know the current air mobility is meant more as a pve army moving tool then what Chinook drops were in zh, but If you tried to use them aggressively like I do with drone carrier its hard to make any use of them.I've been told they aren't intended to drop into hotzones, which isn't really okay in my book if they can't be used in another scenarios as well.

Precise drops: Such as Flying over tunnels and dealing damage/flanking the foe by dropping a humvee near his blackmarket/Eco behind his frontlines.Zoning him in his own base as you dance around you can macro/gather your forces.

Meaty walls: Sort of like the previous example but here your meant to use it more aggressively and rather then avoiding trouble, you looked for it.Imagine a Paladin Tank dropping down on Kassads supply.
He lacks any proper anti tank weapons aside from RPG troopers that can be neutralized or burned.While this tank can fend off quads and burn workers at the same time, you could replicate this with a lazer crusader or normal crusader too depending on your foe.Or Imagine abusing the flying mobility against a tank general that would be too slow with battlemasters that could beat your tanks or be penalized for using Listening outposts.(Infantry inside makes them more expensive)

Units you can't contest/out of your sight to harass your foe; This could be three missile defenders dropped just near a Chinese supply.Theres no way they’ll get crushed with lazerlock or you can drop them up on a cliff against a US.The best case is constructing an EMP patriot against a US supply over a cliff to deny that area completely.

Now In the current Meta there's nearly no reasons to build BMP/Battlemaster/Kodiak against a USA at T0.Gattling cannons and tunguskas can already mow down anything you have on a head on fight, yes even guardians which is supposedly intended.So using any precise drops is unlikely at T1 and generally suicide at T2 due to a network of T2AA/turrets placed around.Not to mention how common interceptors are In ROTR compared to ZH so its easy to get sniped in your base or when you just take a step out of it.But with mixed with cheap/easy and early access to scouting this isn't as easy.Plus airguard and abilitys like jarmens stinger make starlifters job alot harder.
>Thank you for invisible scouts that you could possibly have missed early game/was out of your line of sight that provide invaluable Intel.




Part Two; Usage In Rise of the Reds


The "Intended" usage is to have both the Starlifters and Drone lifters as a short term "ferry" like transport.Not ment to go into contested "hotzones" But we all know thats not going to happen, especially not in 1v1's with the prevously mentioned issues.
Also the dronelifter has only one thing going for it agaisnt an osprey and thats the health. (Count the healing if you want, I wouldnt)
If you dont want to loose collection time or get a third osprey on a supply then you can equally use this to garrison (ab)use with combat drops.Locking out some factions such as ECA out of expansions or even doing anything because of faulty ZH maps.Im really hopefull this is not its intended usage as its not "fun" or fair.
Like rushing the garrisons on the right on Homeland rocks or rushing your foes Refinary and oil on Gorge Drought.


But lets take some scenarios in mind;
(In all scenarios US mirrors are not taken into account because US mirrors are pain and If you enjoy pain then air mobility is perfect for you in its current state.)

Currently if you drop any number of missile defenders at T0, and I mean rush them before the foe can react as he is probably rushing the map for garrison control and seizing tech structures. But If you give a Russia time to build their warfactory or china too in this case.You’ll have a meatshield wall of conscripts or minigunners that are there to counter humvees but also counter your MD drop unintentionally.
So you need to be there before them, If you want to be as quick as possible with your opener to rush the foe then you can get 3-4 (If your quick enough) out when your supply center is up.To quickly call in the drone lifter and rush your foes well expansion most likely.If your against an ECA, I've had my fair share of dozers crushing my MD';s without any remorse or risk.
In any tested scenario you can't really kill anything, the best case is to drop two rangers in his main supply and a few around the map to deny dushka blocking.
Given the Chinese truck speed or how armored the Russian collectors are, Its more likely you'll be crushed then you getting either of them down to Critical health.Which is the second worst case scenario but in the state we're in is the best we hope for.(Critical collectors unless placed on a perfectly align supply collector collects slower and does long term damage)

In the current state of the game there's no way a single or two tanks can be dropped into supply collection.(Meaty wall) due to the way to engage USA is spamming AA and nothing but AA till T1.Even then your composition is going to still have a lot of AA.This and the fact I mentioned about of how widely available scouts and interceptors are prevent the (Precise Drop) as well at T1.And again as mentioned before T2AA makes the possibility of using two starlifters(build limit) to carrying 14 Units into your foes base a gamble that doesn't have much payoff.Plus then theres Jarmen,

Now that we covered the possible scenarios, how about the Impossible ones?
Lets assume for the sake of argument that starlifters are 1000 rather then 1500, Don't require an airfield like they already do, and all T1 Units for the US are T0.(Im not suggesting this, Its just a thought experiment)

If we used a crusader drop against the foe: (Note hovermode is not put into account)
Gla collection is impossible to harass unless you do the repair bug.(Where you can't get them inside before they are crushed because they all try to repair the same building at the same time)
For china, aside from mines cause you can fire over docks now they got really fast locomotors.
For Russia, It would take a good 10seconds to kill a wartruck if they ignored it.
Only people I see that would get boned is ECA, as they lack mobile AT weapons, so they would be dropped and countered by danger close with damage dealt to everything (knowing my luck they'd kill my collectors and ignore the tank itself but anyways in short get gunned down by a Guard tower they could easily ignore.
Mind you this is just me thinking "what's the worst that can happen" In the other possible scenarios a single default wasp hive inside a starlifter can be fought off by one or two T0 AA because the starlifter doesn't have a dummyweapon or fireports.The drones would just fly around and shoot what they can.
If it was Microwave tanks then the GLA would have problems but that's about it on how far that goes across all the other factions, sure you could use it in combination with your forces (humvees) to melt infantry and finishing the deal but that's not the point of this experiment.

Now the question goes for drones, mind you drones can't call in starlifters to begin with.But among the T0-TO drones that could be threatening is dropping down termite drones at an enemy's supply which like the termites itself is easily counterable with mass conscripts,even more so with T0 detection for all factions (But GLA)
AT drones would be the go to answer and would be more effective then missile defenders but have the same issue as they also get countered by the same thing that counters humvees.


Final notes;

With Support aircraft armor being at Tier two and also effecting the General planes its pretty hard to access.
Given its cost, research time and the fact that it competes with other upgrades also makes it something to push back or not use till you have countermessures.Keep in mind support aircraft armor is just boost to these two aircraft and General powers planes.So until you have access to rank 3 there's no reason to purchase this over countermeasures that gives around 19? 23? % armor to begin with.

Also the dronelifter is...a Drone

That doesn't benefit from Drone armor or Drone workshop (Autoheal) at all: I could get that it would be hard or maybe impossible for the dronelifter to benefit from both upgrades.But hey maybe it could have the hunterkiller perk that allows them to move at full speed even when damaged.(I think commanche has that too)


I'll just turn on this Z signal for Zeke to swoop down and prove me wrong.


Its just inconsistent.Same for how you can't fill in the starlifter with just drones or just tanks completely and how there's always 1 slot empty on both helicopters.One that if combined could carry one more drone itself.




Conclusion/Possible solutions of mine:


What MUST happen;

-Dismiss should be a tad faster and give 100% refund back as air mobility is meant to be an Edge an advantage and shouldn't be penaltized.Plus getting into airspace that isn't yours is one thing, getting out is a whole other deal.Going back the way you came may lead to you getting shot down so flying into the sky like a child's balloon should be given more incentive.

-Airfield requirement for Starlifters to be removed.
Why is this a thing to begin with? You should be able to use this for a surprise at TO if you’ve gone for warfactory build.Flying over terrain or some sort of T0 defense that can't attack air aside from dronehive.The airfield just hinders and delays it more.

-Starlifter price to be reduced from 1500 to 1000
Simply said, the less investment into this the more likely it’ll see action, plus with the refund change the decreases the amount your gambling when you want to dismiss it successfully

-Support aircraft armor's Price reduced (Preferably 1000) and put into detention center.

What could possibly happen/Suggestion






The “Third way” solution;
Tier 0.5 pavelows that can carry anything but basically 1 tank at Max.
And somehow make dozers impossible to carry with them
So it'll unlock 3 units and an upgrade
Starlifter: Tanks only heavy beast, can carry dozers
Drone carrier :Mobile danger close Infantry transport
Pavelow: Medium speedy mostly fragile solo transport (middle spot between the two that's downside would be the hp/speed)


Ox transport solution:

Rather then having 2 Huge starlifters that can carry around 14 humvees,
Maybe its better to have the starlifters reduced in size and capacity, so you can have these things carry one tank at a time.
When consulting to other people, I have received feedback that this would be “too much monkey work”
But your playing US, Gimmicks such as this requires micro to work in its defense.
Oh mind you the 14 “Ox” transport like numbers means that the total HP of the two starlifters will be divided among them.So there will be more casualties against say an ECA but less against a Russia this way.
At Tier 1 these things will be easily snipeable by a single mig but be faster then the current starlifter as well.

Extra note: Objectively speaking theres a way to counter the USA hive by all factions at T0.So perhaps a T0 way to rush one into the foes base could add some flavor.
ROTR is all about defences and defence rushing is everywhere theese days



The Lazy way:

Remove the build limits on all of the transport units but increase the slowdown in between you can call them to just slow down but not entirely stop the meatshielding role they’ll probably adopt eventually.(Theres a delay between calling in and dismissing any kind of transport from the Air mobility GP)
(Which was the reason why they got the build/call in cap in the first place.)

Last edit (hopefully) for Hanfield and I's inside joke: cool.gif cool.gif Marakar cool.gif cool.gif

This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 21 May 2017, 17:06


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Posts in this topic
- (USA)Bruce   Discussion of the Week #2 Air mobility?More like airborne futility   21 May 2017, 16:13
- - XAOC-RU-   Ok and who will commentate this long topic first? ...   21 May 2017, 18:52
|- - Zion   QUOTE (XAOC-RU- @ 21 May 2017, 13...   21 May 2017, 22:30
- - X1Destroy   QUOTE Tier 0.5 pavelows Gotta say I miss the pave...   21 May 2017, 19:24
- - Mizo   I'll say this and keep saying it here, this GP...   22 May 2017, 7:37
- - (USA)Bruce   QUOTE (X1Destroy @ 21 May 2017, 21:24) Go...   22 May 2017, 8:32
- - rey   as i'm not even mid-PvP player my opinion does...   22 May 2017, 10:10
- - Mizo   QUOTE "break through front line delivery Tha...   22 May 2017, 16:52
|- - rey   QUOTE (Mizo @ 22 May 2017, 17:52) That...   22 May 2017, 22:08
|- - Mizo   QUOTE (rey @ 22 May 2017, 23:08) probably...   22 May 2017, 23:36
- - GeneralAziz   IMO the lifters are not a " completely useles...   22 May 2017, 16:56
- - GeneralCamo   I do not question the drone lifter. I feel it...   22 May 2017, 22:27
- - ZunZero97   My opinion Air mobility gp from usa is useless i n...   1 Jun 2017, 2:45
|- - Hanfield   QUOTE (ZunZero97 @ 1 Jun 2017, 4:45) And ...   1 Jun 2017, 12:04
|- - ZunZero97   QUOTE (Hanfield @ 1 Jun 2017, 8:04) ... B...   5 Jun 2017, 1:14
- - Zion   i played with these yesterday, not too much but i ...   1 Jun 2017, 14:03
- - Mizo   Most of the things you suggested above are impossi...   1 Jun 2017, 22:12
- - TheViking92   Excellent discussion topic (USA) BRUCE   28 Dec 2017, 7:47
- - ZunZero97   well, is a good topic but is very large to read, i...   29 Dec 2017, 5:59
|- - Hanfield   QUOTE (ZunZero97 @ 29 Dec 2017, 6:59) my ...   31 Dec 2017, 20:49
- - Skitt   Just how many times does all of this ^^ need to be...   29 Dec 2017, 9:59
|- - ZunZero97   QUOTE (Skitt @ 29 Dec 2017, 4:59) Just ho...   31 Dec 2017, 7:56
- - Neutrino   Both lifters desperately need a speed increase (so...   1 Jan 2018, 12:31
- - Mizo   I wouldn't give all USA aircraft a speed buff ...   1 Jan 2018, 13:22
- - (USA)Bruce   Im glad this discussions ongoing, for now I've...   1 Jan 2018, 18:02
|- - TheViking92   QUOTE ((USA)Bruce @ 1 Jan 2018, 14...   3 Jan 2018, 4:51
|- - TheViking92   Do you know what would be great? that the OSPREY a...   3 Jan 2018, 5:30
- - XoGamer   Fix Russian Helis if we haven't talked about i...   2 Jan 2018, 13:28
|- - (USA)Bruce   QUOTE (XoGamer @ 2 Jan 2018, 15:28) Fix R...   2 Jan 2018, 13:58
- - (USA)Bruce   QUOTE (TheViking92 @ 3 Jan 2018, 6:51) O....   3 Jan 2018, 9:00
- - XoGamer   Soz Bruce, what I meant was: Russia relies too muc...   3 Jan 2018, 10:23
|- - (USA)Bruce   QUOTE (XoGamer @ 3 Jan 2018, 12:23) Soz B...   3 Jan 2018, 10:54
- - XoGamer   Yes - I understand you will then say "balance...   3 Jan 2018, 11:38
|- - rey   QUOTE (XoGamer @ 3 Jan 2018, 12:38) Yes -...   3 Jan 2018, 22:37
|- - XoGamer   QUOTE (rey @ 3 Jan 2018, 21:37) probably ...   7 Jan 2018, 0:53
|- - rey   QUOTE (XoGamer @ 7 Jan 2018, 1:53) what? ...   7 Jan 2018, 10:56
- - Mizo   Thing with Russia is that it gets the full chopper...   4 Jan 2018, 0:31


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