Lets discuss Superweapons. Options

[Grim Tuesday]

In my opinion the only problem with SWs right now is, they can come way too fast. And after they come, the fun ends (if you play against ECA read it: the fun starts).
Also because they are so strong right after being built, they are used just to stunlock the other, which is also not fun.

If you manage to eliminate those two points, everything will be fine.

The solutions are many.

You could for example completely forget about their destructive part and give them some unique buff to your faction core instead (USA pilots, China auras .... ).
You could also play with buildtimes and make their power weak at start and scaling later into the game (as Agent Bruce pointed).
But maybe such drastic changes are not even needed. Maybe just little stats tweaks are enough...

This post has been edited by Grim Tuesday: 5 Oct 2015, 22:32

[{Lads}RikerZZZ]

I love Bruce's idea as it also helps cater to that PVE crowd who just turtle and sw spam. That said, i think we should think of that WAY down the line, and instead focus on, as Grim said, some balance tweeks.

I would make the cooldowns for all the super-weapons WAY longer, and make the cost and power requirements higher aswell. I think if we fiddled around with those numbers it would pay off nicely and we'd have a far more fair and fun sw system

[Mr.Kim]

That's way too complicate and boring if all super weapons are change balances like that.

[Grim Tuesday]

That's way too complicate and boring if all super weapons are change balances like that.

Sorry but only **** can say something like this.

Where is your argument why?
What about adding "In my opinion" before the sentence.

Also

Are almost all rank 3 GPs also too complicate and boring?
Because they are working on completely same principles (you just switch money for exp)!!!

This post has been edited by Grim Tuesday: 6 Oct 2015, 6:10

[{Lads}RikerZZZ]

That's way too complicate and boring if all super weapons are change balances like that.

So your saying that we shouldnt atleast brainstorm and put the effort in to try and develop a key feature of the game?
Sure, it might be some effort but the payoff would be more beneficial to the mod and i think we should atleast be thinking about ways to improve it instead of saying "what we have is fine and i cbs fixing it".

[Knjaz.]

That's way too complicate and boring if all super weapons are change balances like that.

Surely it's much better if an in-game feature is considered so broken and detrimental for gameplay that community outright refuses to use it in game and pretends it doesn't exist.

And the problem isn't new, even SHW games usually go with "No SW" tag on them. And it seems people coming to same conclusion regarding the issues with them as we did 2 years ago when we've tried to actively play with them and test them out. Too early and cost-efficient for the price, stunlock race and snowball effect.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 6 Oct 2015, 7:37

[Mizo]

Hear
me out on this:

What if SW worked in a system similar to Topols and Missile Silos? Not exactly the same system , but let me elaborate more.

- First you get the main platform ( the building ) constructed for a lower price ( say about 3.5k)
- Then when you build it, you need to pay to get the weapon ready. The prices range depending on the destructive power of the weapon itself. ( For example, A nuke would cost 7k per launch, but a party cannon beam would cost 4k or less). This would be in a form of upgrade that usually will take 2-3 minutes to finish.
- After the upgrade is complete, everyone is notified that a person is getting a WMD ready ( via cooldown on the screen). The cooldowns will also vary depending on the power ( China being 6 and Party cannon being 4 minutes)

With this system you fixed 4 things:

- The fact that the time needed to get the WMD bought and ready is pretty long, meaning that offensive GPs won't be always reserved for stun-locks. The SW targets becomes more tactical.

- You need a slight bit more micro in the fact that you need to purchase the weapon instead of just waiting.

- The SW building itself won't always be a priority target unless the cooldown of the SW is initialized. Heck you can use this as sort of a mind game, where enemy is not sure whether you built the platform for a bluff or actually getting a WMD ready. This adds to the psychological warfare.

- The price increase ensures that a person won't be using a SW early to mid game unless he wants to loose map control.


As a bonus, you can either leave this unlocked at R1 by default, or the buildings gets unlocked at R3. Am not sure whether this is codable though.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 6 Oct 2015, 12:52

[{Lads}RikerZZZ]

I like the idea Mizo, and i think rank 3 would work best. But how would the AI use it?

[Mizo]

I was thinking that the AI would get a dummy version of the SW, with the cooldown being initialized from the get-go.

Though like I said, I need someone to tell me if it is possible.

[__CrUsHeR]

Hear
me out on this:

What if SW worked in a system similar to Topols and Missile Silos? Not exactly the same system , but let me elaborate more.

- First you get the main platform ( the building ) constructed for a lower price ( say about 3.5k)
- Then when you build it, you need to pay to get the weapon ready. The prices range depending on the destructive power of the weapon itself. ( For example, A nuke would cost 7k per launch, but a party cannon beam would cost 4k or less). This would be in a form of upgrade that usually will take 2-3 minutes to finish.
- After the upgrade is complete, everyone is notified that a person is getting a WMD ready ( via cooldown on the screen). The cooldowns will also vary depending on the power ( China being 6 and Party cannon being 4 minutes)

With this system you fixed 4 things:

- The fact that the time needed to get the WMD bought and ready is pretty long, meaning that offensive GPs won't be always reserved for stun-locks. The SW targets becomes more tactical.

- You need a slight bit more micro in the fact that you need to purchase the weapon instead of just waiting.

- The SW building itself won't always be a priority target unless the cooldown of the SW is initialized. Heck you can use this as sort of a mind game, where enemy is not sure whether you built the platform for a bluff or actually getting a WMD ready. This adds to the psychological warfare.

- The price increase ensures that a person won't be using a SW early to mid game unless he wants to loose map control.


As a bonus, you can either leave this unlocked at R1 by default, or the buildings gets unlocked at R3. Am not sure whether this is codable though.

It would be interesting thinking in a more competitive game.

[Baneblade]

Well I cannot really help on redesign issues because I've got way too few experience in using Superweapons PvP.

My main experience actually is fight versus ECA where at each possible entrance of ennemy base, you have a clever mix of turrets that are built such that no single unit in your arsenal can get close enough to fire more than one shot before getting sniped. So that SW is the only way to open yourself up a gate into ennemy base.

The thing is we did try them for a while ( pre-1.85 ). It messed up with time balance as well as team games.
For exampe, suppose there is a tank army in front of your base, and you're ECA. They have one superweapon ready, and it can be really anything. What the players can do then is just use one superweapon as well as maybe 2 offensive GPs on a solar reactor, kill it, leaving ECA players on a major disadvantage ( ofcourse this is assuming ECA players isn't given a chance to get the solaris in time due to the aforth mentioned Snowball effect). Your power is down, and there isn't really a thing to stop that army from marching into the ECA base.

2 offensive GP actually do equal or even more damage than a SW (I'm particularly thinking of rank 5 GPs and units paradrops), so the presence of SW here does not make a huge difference (in a snowball effect I mean, when you did not have time and ressources to build mass anti-air to deny GP bombers and copters the way into your base).

Also since I hit PvP I saw some players (especially one who has just recently posted here ) developping some kind of aggressive playstyle with ECA, which should not allow a huge army to be in front of an ECA base same time as SW ready to fire (sorry to say but what was Jaeger at ?). I just mension because I suspect ECA was first designed as a much campy faction, and perhaps noone used tactics such as early Lynx or field upgraded Pandur rush at the time you did your last tests with SW.

Now I don't want to discuss anyone's skills (I am the first to say that I've never seen such slow moving tanks as ECA ones, which is a problem both defensively and offensively and I don't play ECA that often), I'm just saying that if ECA has particular problems in fighting superweapons, a good solution would be to buff it's offensive capacities (perhaps at the expanse of all defenses range that is quite unfair if you ask me, especially for mortar pits), before touching superweapons, that have always had their pros and antis anyway.

Am opting them to be unlocked at R5 because the firepower they bring for the amount of cash spend is too much and can be extremely significant and sometiimes uncounterable during the earlier stages of the game if say, an ECA player bunkers well enough in the mid game and gets a solaris relay up. There isn't too much the other player can do except to either get a SW himself which means that he will be spending money on SW not on the army, ( in which you are suppsoed to be investing on units especially in the mid game where ECA's defenses are layed thin) thus limiting your offensive capabilities till the very late game, or the player can just endure.

Ofcourse am talking about this, focusing on ECA the most since they will have the biggest advantage in 1v1s where SW is allowed ( Pandora).

And the problem isn't new, even SHW games usually go with "No SW" tag on them. And it seems people coming to same conclusion regarding the issues with them as we did 2 years ago when we've tried to actively play with them and test them out. Too early and cost-efficient for the price, stunlock race and snowball effect.

Here again I may lack some experience, but I'm not really convinced for a building requiring T3 and having countdown that go around 8 minutes to be that early.

After that if they are tested with the most recent tactics (because I don't remember to have seen very aggressive gameplay in the first Doomhammer casts), 1.85 or later unit speed and with armies moved so as not to be sitting ducks when the counter hits 0, and they are proved to provide too much of an advantage as compared to the amount of units produced at same cost during the same time, then I don't mind a buff in cost and/or build time and/or timer, provided there's an alternative way for vanilla factions to win a single inch of land against massive ECA bunkering (talking of the line 4 mortar pits back 2 guard towers 2 skyshield middle 4 gun turrets front here, sometimes enhanced by ammunition fortifications and region command auto-repair if I'm not mistaken ).

[Mizo]

Well I cannot really help on redesign issues because I've got way too few experience in using Superweapons PvP.

Alrighty then, no problem in giving your prespective about a particular asset.

My main experience actually is fight versus ECA where at each possible entrance of ennemy base, you have a clever mix of turrets that are built such that no single unit in your arsenal can get close enough to fire more than one shot before getting sniped. So that SW is the only way to open yourself up a gate into ennemy base.

Establishing that sort of defensive parameter is not easy, not easy at all when playing ECA unless the map is shit with narrow choke points that doesn't let armies go through, or no flanks being avaliable. It's gonna be hard mid game for ECA in which you should finish them up before fortifying otherwise it's your fault for letting them escelate to this point.

2 offensive GP actually do equal or even more damage than a SW (I'm particularly thinking of rank 5 GPs and units paradrops), so the presence of SW here does not make a huge difference (in a snowball effect I mean, when you did not have time and ressources to build mass anti-air to deny GP bombers and copters the way into your base).

Superweapons can't be intercepted and have a very short ETA, meaning that people can constatnly lock out your second economy as soon as they get a map advantage over you, defeating any chance of comeback. This along with their other GP abilities that can be used to kill any resistance forces you have in your base, this all contribute in the snowball effect. Late game, superweapons doesn't have as much impact as they do in mid game but they can still be a threat.

Also since I hit PvP I saw some players (especially one who has just recently posted here ) developping some kind of aggressive playstyle with ECA, which should not allow a huge army to be in front of an ECA base same time as SW ready to fire (sorry to say but what was Jaeger at ?). I just mension because I suspect ECA was first designed as a much campy faction, and perhaps noone used tactics such as early Lynx or field upgraded Pandur rush at the time you did your last tests with SW.

At first, ECA was designed to not have any units, and win the game by defenses, then the Dev team gave them units because of the fact that their playstyle will grow stail and boring. Now they are more of a defensive oriented faction rather than a campy faction ( while the latter can still be done, you can still go full Wiliem-Turtle on people, but this would make it very boring to play wtih on a constant basis). Their gameplay now is alot more dynamic since despite you having offensive capabilities, you can't really go full head on against offensive oriented faction without having back-up defenses. You will always have a disadvantage ( or being outnumbered, as shown by their units' absurd build times.). Your job is to survive till rank 5, get that protocol up that will give you the winning edge, and GG. It feels rewarding when you acheive that against good players . So yeah ECA can stil have offensive capabilties albiet to a limit, that gets removed after reaching rank 5.

Now I don't want to discuss anyone's skills (I am the first to say that I've never seen such slow moving tanks as ECA ones, which is a problem both defensively and offensively and I don't play ECA that often), I'm just saying that if ECA has particular problems in fighting superweapons, a good solution would be to buff it's offensive capacities (perhaps at the expanse of all defenses range that is quite unfair if you ask me, especially for mortar pits), before touching superweapons, that have always had their pros and antis anyway.

ECA has no problem in its offense whatsoever. It's tuned in a way that makes offensive harrasment possible but not broken. Their defenses is already extremely strong, since as s0on as you get howetzer + Mortar pits combo, your opponent won't be able to breach in your base that easily ( needing countless cash flow and arty production, turning the match into a 2 hour slug fest. Does their defenses really need a buff? You are also forgetting how freaken good ECA's GPs are. All of them are good, no point is wasted.

Here again I may lack some experience, but I'm not really convinced for a building requiring T3 and having countdown that go around 8 minutes to be that early.

After that if they are tested with the most recent tactics (because I don't remember to have seen very aggressive gameplay in the first Doomhammer casts), 1.85 or later unit speed and with armies moved so as not to be sitting ducks when the counter hits 0, and they are proved to provide too much of an advantage as compared to the amount of units produced at same cost during the same time, then I don't mind a buff in cost and/or build time and/or timer, provided there's an alternative way for vanilla factions to win a single inch of land against massive ECA bunkering (talking of the line 4 mortar pits back 2 guard towers 2 skyshield middle 4 gun turrets front here, sometimes enhanced by ammunition fortifications and region command auto-repair if I'm not mistaken ).

Ehhh its fine. ECA's fine. We're not talking about balance revolving around one faction but rather the Superweapon mechanic itself which doesn't see any play. Their effect isn't as broken in late game, which is why they either need a rework, or unlock at rank 5.

[The_Hunter]

That's way too complicate and boring if all super weapons are change balances like that.

Sorry but only **** can say something like this.

Where is your argument why?
What about adding "In my opinion" before the sentence.

Also

Are almost all rank 3 GPs also too complicate and boring?
Because they are working on completely same principles (you just switch money for exp)!!!

Well i hate to burst your bubble but what Mr.Kim has said sums up pretty much how i feel about everything posted in this topic thus far.

Not a single one of these "solutions" seems like a very good one and some are downright terrible and make it way to complicated

[Grim Tuesday]

Well i hate to burst your bubble but what Mr.Kim has said sums up pretty much how i feel about everything posted in this topic thus far.

Not a single one of these "solutions" seems like a very good one and some are downright terrible and make it way to complicated

There is a difference between writing a post and writing an intelligent post. Choosing good vocabulary and solid argument is key for this.



Anyway I dont think your role here is to copy paste ideas from forum but to get feedback and maybe let yourself inspire.

Thats also why I didnt write any possible solution to this. I have just wrote what IMO the most important balance problems are and gave you some hints, which could help you in creating new SW concept.


It would be much more helpful if you could tell us, whether you also find those points problematic so we can agree on something, instead of saying that XY solutions are wrong.

This post has been edited by Grim Tuesday: 10 Oct 2015, 17:55

[Shiro]

Well thanks but no thanks, we decline your offer on any "hints".