1.802 Unofficial PvP Rebalance patch and bugfixing., 1.03 Available. Options

[Knjaz.]

A rebalance attempt by me, originally started with desire to see how a properly balanced Russian faction would look like. Instead, this somehow turned into a Balance Fix for the whole 1.802 version. Anyway, here's the introducing part from the Changelog.
===========================================================

Welcome to Knjaz's Rebalance Patch V.1.00 for Rise of the Reds 1.802
The original intention of that patch was to see how Russian Federation faction would look with appropriate unit cost-efficiency progression through the tiers, but it ended up with my attempt to fix the widely known balance problems for all 5 factions, as well as some bug fixing (All credits to The_Hunter, I've used his 1.85 code with his permission.) - known as MTP Aura stacking bug ,VDV lag and Gepard revolver upgrade. Note – this patch is NOT related to 1.85 (except for bug fixing moments), I've used different approaches to certain balance issues than the ones used in 1.85.

P.S. The only really experimental changes were done to ECA – it's dozer rebalance, and it's mortar pit efficiency.

Credits also go to (USA)Bruce, Ulater, XAttus and PVP community in general for pointing out various balance issues.

What Russian faction was intended to look like (according to my understanding): It starts with powerful, but slow and expensive units. It does not have a traditional unit progression with firepower increase through Tier 1 and Tier 2 upgrades (With exceptions), like other 4 factions do – instead, it's units are becoming cheaper in later tier, as well as getting some asymmetric progression in form of survivability increase.It relies on ground based bruteforce assaults, preferably close range combat. While it has an access to fixed wing airforce, it's usage is optional and is not required to achieve victory.



What it looked like: An expensive, slow AND cost inefficient faction at Tier 0 with minimal unit cost-efficiency progression at tier 2 and serious lack of Crowd control capabilities, which were counterbalanced by borderline Overpowered aircraft (Frogfoots).
Which means – if you exclude Frogfoots, and take 2 players with absolutely equal skills and starting positions, Bruteforce-oriented Russian faction always lose to Bruteforce oriented China, simply due to disparity in your investment efficiency.
10000$ worth of China's vehicles would always beat 10000$ of Russia's vehicles of same tier, given the similar unit composition in both forces. (again, Frogfoots excluded).


Only Relevant for 1.1:
I've merely normalized Russian cost-efficiency levels at tier 0 with Chinese faction (which got nerfed, by the way.) – without taking horde bonuses into account, and increased overall unit progression by making Mass Production reduce prices by 25%. To counterbalance it, a lot of base prices for Tier 1 and Tier 2 units have been increased, to keep the end price as it was in 1802. It will mean that Russian players will have an additional handicap in using their Tier 1/2 stuff, until a 3000$ worth Mass Production gets researched. But at same time, it will provide a much greater cost-efficiency progression for Tier 0 units.
Tips:
When playing as Russia in Tier 0, remember – your units have proper cost-efficiency now, but they greatly lack in speed compared to Chinese ones. Remember that Tier 1 will be most painful for you, since the base price of Helicopters and all other Tier 1 stuff has been increased as well, but their combat statistics weren't! That's why you have to rely on MTPs and Recovery to keep your expensive stuff alive. Which means, you start out strong, your cost-efficiency falls in Tier 1 and Pre-Mass Production Tier 2, and after that you climb back.
Also remember that BMPs are the only quick units you have at tier 0, and Tunguskas got their speed greatly nerfed!

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Warning: the changelog itself sometimes contains strong language and sometimes a bit chaotic (some changes have my comments, some do not), since it wasn't originally intended to go public and I'm too lazy to sort it out.

Installation Guide:


Step 1: Go into your Rise of the Reds 1.802 folder, grab the !BetaRotrINI.gib and hide it somewhere - preferably outside of your RotR 1802 folder. That's your original mod.
Step 2: Download the archive attached to this post, and extract !BetaRotrINI.gib into the same folder where your Rise of the Reds 1.802 is installed.
Step 3: Launch RotR. In Game Options, it should say RiseOfTheReds V.1.802+Knjaz'sRebalance 1.00 on the bottom of the window.


Enjoy!
Please, report any bugs/inconsistencies with changelog here.

Mirror for the 1.03 version for those who do not have forum account.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wqo3nj1i344ay7/K...balance1.03.rar

РУССКАЯ ВЕРСИЯ 1.03 / RUSSIAN VERSION 1.03

Mirror for the 1.01 PVE version. This is the last version before significant SuperWeapon rebalance (which will be added into 1.01, and which, as I suspect, won't be liked by PvE-only players), I'm putting this version here for PVE Only players!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxfqacs8aqz25x6/K...20RotR1.802.rar

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 30 Oct 2014, 10:19

Attached File(s)

 Knj.Rebalance1.03.rar ( 939.8K ) Number of downloads: 92

 

[Composite armour]

This looks really damn good.

I know you did it for PvP play, but it still looks like it'd be good for PvE.

[GeneralCamo]

Ack, .doc files. I recommend using a common format like .txt or .rtf instead of .doc in the future.



EDIT:
Read through a lot of the changes. These will be controversial (Especially the Frogfoot, removing the BMD Mortars, and giving Tomahawks immunity to AA weapons) but I am sure it will make for a better balanced game until 1.85 comes around.

This post has been edited by Generalcamo: 9 May 2014, 1:37

[zeFoks]

I think the main problem of the Golem//Kodiak//Sentinel is the low acceleration (and maybe low rate of turn). The speed, armor and fire power of the tanks is fine.

This post has been edited by zeFoks: 9 May 2014, 6:45

[Knjaz.]

Uploaded a new version, I accidentally forgot to remove AURORA_BOMB damage type from the Tu-22 strike, after checking on how it would look like as originally intended by DevTeam. (Yes, Tu22 were meant to have AURORA_BOMB, but were somehow forgotten to get it). Turned out to be extremely OP and nearly impossible to properly balance out.

Sorry for that, somehow slipped through.

also,
-Sprut-SD now gets ARMOR_PIERCING damage, instead of Infantry Missile. I have no idea why it was made Inf.Missile in first place - probably to decrease it's damage against defenses, since it's DPS is high.
-ECM tank got a 30% price increase, from 1000 to 1300. We don't want those area shutdowns to be spammed, right?
-ECA Jagdmammut got 10% health increase. Needed it, really.

Ack, .doc files. I recommend using a common format like .txt or .rtf instead of .doc in the future.


EDIT:
Read through a lot of the changes. These will be controversial (Especially the Frogfoot, removing the BMD Mortars, and giving Tomahawks immunity to AA weapons) but I am sure it will make for a better balanced game until 1.85 comes around.

Tomahawks got immunity together with price increase and range decrease. I personally viewed it as a better option than buffing their HP into skies, making them an AA Suppression. Their Damage was buffed because their seemed low. (btw, there's also a damage buff in 1.85, but I used a minor version of it).

BMD Mortars - something had to go, and while Mortars were always picked, Sprut was a slightly more balanced option. Plus, it just allowed me to use 1.85 code, after Hunter's permission. Sprut still has some insane DPS for an air-dropped vehicle, tbh.

Frogfoot deserved it, it was never supposed to be relied upon so much, by the core faction design. Mstas got an AoE buff for Crowd Control. (they're still worse than in 1.85, though.)


I'm really interested to see if ECA dozer changes worked or not? Since it was probably the only thing being purely experimental in this whole patch, based more than half a year old discussion in public PvP skype chat with Zhao and Kireto. Their idea from back then, basically.

I think the main problem of the Golem//Kodiak//Sentinel is the low acceleration (and maybe low rate of turn). The speed, armor and fire power of the tanks is fine.

Slow acceleration is a problem if you spam them. With buffed Mstas, you have other damage dealing options as well. Of course, that was an option, but I took a different approach.
As for Kodiak cost-efficiency - we've run alot of tests during 1.85 development. I simply know their exact cost-efficiency in 1.802, and how it fares against other tank-heavy faction in a direct combat. It's exactly or slightly below unupgraded unhorded Tier 0 battlemaster level now.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 9 May 2014, 7:48

[Kazan]

Now Frogfoot has become as weak in firepower as the Berkut with a price tag of almost twice of it! What's the point?

[Kazan]

And I am wondering if these tweaks will still apply to the rank upgraded version of the same unit!

[Knjaz.]

Now Frogfoot has become as weak in firepower as the Berkut with a price tag of almost twice of it! What's the point?

AoE and range. It's the first draft, though.

[Kichō]

I don't really understand the following:

Scorpion health decrease
Scorpion rocket price increase
Pyro damage decrease
Gatling tank damage decrease

The Han tweaks seem a bit harsh but I never really used it so I can't really comment.

edit: good job on everything else, not sure on ECA changes but haven't had the chance to use them yet.

This post has been edited by Kichō: 9 May 2014, 21:12

[Planardweller]

Knjaz, please, instead of percents just write new values. I currently have to recalculate it in my head everytime to see what happens for fringe cases.

Also, did you consider lowering Chinese BMs damage to 52 (52*1.25=65 with upgrade)? While it is a rather big decrease BMs finally won't be that OP from start. They'll still be plenty powerful under propaganda and horde bonuses.
Also, are BMs the most cost efficient tank in game (without taking range in consideration)?

Also, how does USA strategy bonuses work - do they multiply or add with upgrades?

This post has been edited by Planardweller: 9 May 2014, 22:50

[Umpfelgrumpf]

I really like the changes this patch made.
Russia has become something more special, while other ECA forces then the Pandur are effective now, and finally, Nuke Hans have been nerfed!
And basically all decisions are well thought off, even if some might need some tweaking in the future.
Now It´s about to find out, if these changes really turn out to be good in the long run.

[Knjaz.]

Pyro damage decrease

That's one of the things that got hit with a nerfhammer in 1.85 as well. Pyros were never supposed to be that efficient against light vehicles in first place.

Gatling tank damage decrease

Cost-efficiency issues. You see, I balanced Tunguskas directly by the gattling tanks. In the process I've found that 100$ invested in a single, unupgraded or upgraded (Chain Guns) gattling tank greatly beats the cost-efficiency of 100$ investment into Quads. By a good amount.

The Han tweaks seem a bit harsh but I never really used it so I can't really comment.

Well, they aren't brokingly powerful right now. If I overnerfed them or not, remains to be seen.

edit: good job on everything else, not sure on ECA changes but haven't had the chance to use them yet.

Thanks. Those ECA dozer stuff is purely experimental as mentioned in changelog, we're trying to figure out if it's good or not so good.
+, I was touching faction basic gameplay with that change. And that is something i'd rather avoid in this patch unless required for balance. (Frogfoot's case, for example).

Scorpion health decrease
Scorpion rocket price increase

On the health - purely cost-effiency issues, turned out to be a bit too good for GLA armor with the damage buff and original Scorpion locomotor. (which means Gattling/Quad speed levels). Don't worry, health is a secondary parameter compared to damage output (to an extent, ofc.), as most players familiar with different US Strategies efficiencies know, so that nerf won't be that noticeable.

As for the rocket - was part of the bigger nerf. The rocket previously turned them into tanks capable of Bruteforcing even upgraded battlemasters on $ per $ basis - we tested it. Hence, I've nerfed both it's combat efficiency against units and delayed the moment until upgrade kicks in. I do realize that I could've overdone it in the upgrade cost department - but that's partially due to overall increase in combat efficiency of Scorpions without rockets.

As for direct tank to tank combat, Marauder is a better option now.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 May 2014, 12:16

[Knjaz.]

Knjaz, please, instead of percents just write new values. I currently have to recalculate it in my head everytime to see what happens for fringe cases.

Also, did you consider lowering Chinese BMs damage to 52 (52*1.25=65 with upgrade)? While it is a rather big decrease BMs finally won't be that OP from start. They'll still be plenty powerful under propaganda and horde bonuses.
Also, are BMs the most cost efficient tank in game (without taking range in consideration)?

Also, how does USA strategy bonuses work - do they multiply or add with upgrades?

I avoided it to make it easier to read for normal people, not interested in precise numbers.
Though, I may do it in the future - but I've also left most of the old values in game INI's.
(it works like that: Build Cost = 2000 ; 1800 - means, current is 2000, previously it was 1800. Game doesn't read what's after ; in INI files)

BM nerf? Yes, definitely considered that. Maybe even will do, and will nerf current Kodiaks together with them - because I've tied Kodiaks to tier 0 unupgraded BMasters.
Yes, Battlemaster, taking all upgrades (and bonuses) into account and excluding the range, is the most cost-efficient tank in the entire game, for direct-tank to tank combat. EDIT: Well, the Scorpion with a 1802 missile, during a medium to low scale engagement, can give it a beating.

USA strategy bonuses - good question. I'm fairly sure it's dependant on how upgrade is done. You see, in some cases Upgrade gives +25% to current vehicle weapon. In some cases, upgrade gives vehicle a new weapon with 25% more damage. Result is same, but the implementation is different. So it will be 1 * 1.25 + 0.20 vs 1 * 1.25 *1.20. With Hold the Line - Composite armor combo, it will be second case, since Composite Armor changes the amount of HP unit itself has, and HtL will affect the new HP of the unit.

But you better ask The_Hunter for that kind of stuff, I might be easily mistaken.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 May 2014, 12:19

[Kazan]

That's an awesome work, Knjaz, thanks. I am rather intrigued by the question that weather these balance issues will also be catered by 1.85 version or not?

[Knjaz.]

That's an awesome work, Knjaz, thanks. I am rather intrigued by the question that weather these balance issues will also be catered by 1.85 version or not?

Thanks.
Overwhelming majority of them was already addressed, and pretty long time ago - but with different stat changes, and sometimes different approaches altogether.

[katmoda12]

I've noted that the bomb track "agility" has been addressed, Do you have any plan in the same field for the mole minelayer? they utilizes the same attack patterns (advance place the minefield/bomb and retreat...

[Planardweller]

Knjaz, thank for doing this work!

I've looked through the file and compiled a small list of errors and notes:
Paladin still has 80 damage

Weapon PaladinTankGun
PrimaryDamage = 80.0 ;90.0

Paladin Heroic gun values are not updated.
Same for Sentinel Heroic gun

There is no descrption for Tunguska heroic antiair cannon
There is no description for Manticore heroic cannon (both variants) - it still gets bonuses from promotions AFAIK

Leopard, JagdMammoth, Golem, Paladin, Crusader, Overlord tanks have identical RoF(2000)
Kodiak has 1800 -> now 1700
Rhino (T-64) has 1800
Battlemasters have 1900(another reason why they always win - higher RoF)
Gla tanks have very high RoF, especially with Salvage

Also check Scorpions: i play GLA very rarely, but its salvaged gun damage values are strange.

This post has been edited by Planardweller: 10 May 2014, 16:48

[Serialkillerwhal...]

I think he nerfed the gun damage from 90 to 80.

[Knjaz.]

Knjaz, thank for doing this work!

I've looked through the file and compiled a small list of errors and notes:
Paladin still has 80 damage

Paladin Heroic gun values are not updated.
Same for Sentinel Heroic gun

There is no descrption for Tunguska heroic antiair cannon
There is no description for Manticore heroic cannon (both variants) - it still gets bonuses from promotions AFAIK

Leopard, JagdMammoth, Golem, Paladin, Crusader, Overlord tanks have identical RoF(2000)
Kodiak has 1800 -> now 1700
Rhino (T-64) has 1800
Battlemasters have 1900(another reason why they always win - higher RoF)
Gla tanks have very high RoF, especially with Salvage

Also check Scorpions: i play GLA very rarely, but its salvaged gun damage values are strange.

Few notes
-Kodiak ROF mentioned in the INI's changelog, firepower increase was intentional for the reasons mentioned there.
-Tunguska heroic anti-air does not exist. it's not needed either, heroic versions are used for cosmetic purposes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
-Only marauder's RoF changes with Salvage, Scorp's ROF is same. Marauder is meant to have extreme firepower if fully salvaged and especially ranked.

As for the rest:
Thank you very much. That's what happens when you implement some of these in a hurry.
I'll fix that in upcoming version where I'll also likely review battlemaster (and, therefore, Kodiak) cost-efficiency (read: Nerfz), and the whole "Increase the price of the units because mass production is more efficient now" logic.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 May 2014, 17:38

[Planardweller]

Few notes
-Kodiak ROF mentioned in the INI's changelog, firepower increase was intentional for the reasons mentioned there.
-Tunguska heroic anti-air does not exist. it's not needed either, heroic versions are used for cosmetic purposes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
-Only marauder's RoF changes with Salvage, Scorp's ROF is same. Marauder is meant to have extreme firepower if fully salvaged and especially ranked.

As for the rest:
Thank you very much. That's what happens when you implement some of these in a hurry.
I'll fix that in upcoming version where I'll also likely review battlemaster (and, therefore, Kodiak) cost-efficiency (read: Nerfz), and the whole "Increase the price of the units because mass production is more efficient now" logic.

I know about Kodiak being mentioned. I just added it for completeness
Should Jagdmammuth have the same bonus to HP from Nano Absorbers as Leopard? It gets the old one(125)
Should Golem take full bonus from new ERA, (its EraGolemArmour has the old 80%)

I didn't know about heroic versions being only cosmetic, so i that why i was pointing out. Most guns have them.
I think Golem cannon isn't cosmetic - it has increased damage against infantry when heroic (15 to 40 increase).

GLA Scorpion:
Is scorpion supposed to get only a second missile on salvage two?
RoF - 1000, doesn't change with salvage
Base dmg 23
plus One Salvage - 28
Base heroic - 23
plus One salvage heroic - 20 ;28

Marauder:
base 80, RoF 1900
Plus salvage one: 75, RoF 1200
Plus Salvage two: 70x2, RoF 1100

Heroics are identical for Marauder- no differences here.

This post has been edited by Planardweller: 10 May 2014, 18:36

[Knjaz.]

Should Jagdmammuth have the same bonus to HP from Nano Absorbers as Leopard? It gets the old one(125) - Originally not intended. Jagdmammut change was last-minute implementation, didn't like how they fared against BM-like Kodiaks. Once the BM gets nerfed, and Kodiak together with it, I expect reverting these changes to JM.
Should Golem take full bonus from new ERA, (its EraGolemArmour has the old 80%) -No, it shouldn't. Intended. Question is why Golem gets it's 10% dmg reduction in first place, but since it wasn't broken, I'm not fixing it.

I didn't know about heroic versions being only cosmetic, so i that why i was pointing out. Most guns have them.
I think Golem cannon isn't cosmetic - it has increased damage against infantry when heroic (15 to 40 increase).

Mostly for that, yes.
Golem getting much better at anti-inf. role when heroic - that's unusual. Will check.

GLA Scorpion:
Is scorpion supposed to get only a second missile on salvage two? Yes, always was like that.
RoF - 1000, doesn't change with salvage
Base dmg 23
plus One Salvage - 28
Base heroic - 23
plus One salvage heroic - 20 ;28 - already noticed it. Should be 28 ;20.

Heroics are identical for Marauder- no differences here.

Same, it works like that for most stuff out there. Golem seems to be an exception.

The rank itself provides a great increase in Refire Rate and Damage at same time. Heroic version allows to add those red glowing effects to them.

I have no idea why Golems get better at anti-infantry when getting heroic. Might be a leftover from 1.70-172, like with Frogfoot secondary damage that wasn't nerfed - that number looks very familiar to me, around the same anti-inf damage Golems had in those early versions.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 May 2014, 18:57

[Planardweller]

Thanks. On my part glad to be of help.

Have you considered any changes to Sentinel? Its DPS is overall small (75 +25 with missiles, old RoF of 4000). I was considering to give it explosive damage type and some splash on the main gun and wardens. Explosive wouldn't change anything for tanks (they take 100%, except russians of course), but infantry would fare a bit worse.

While on topic of damage types - Jagdmammuth has inf_missile type, so that might be why it is weaker against russian tanks overall.

This post has been edited by Planardweller: 10 May 2014, 19:21

[Knjaz.]

Thanks. On my part glad to be of help.

Have you considered any changes to Sentinel? Its DPS is overall small (75 +25 with missiles, old RoF of 4000). I was considering to give it explosive damage type and some splash on the main gun and wardens. Explosive wouldn't change anything for tanks (they take 100%, except russians of course), but infantry would fare a bit worse.

Oh, I did it, once. Armed Sentinels with "High Explosive" rounds instead of armor-piercing one, giving them less damage but appropriate splash for their caliber.
OP as ****.

As for simply changing damage to Explosion, without altering other stats - dunno. Sentinel has it's Health pool (1800 health, vs 1100 on Overlord.), so it's primary role can defined as a "Tank" (in role playing game terms). I've took the 1.85 road and turned Mstas into Damage Dealers instead, with splash and all.
Ofc, leaving Mstas as they were and turning Sent into true Damage Dealer might be a possible alternative, but it'd turn Russian lategame into just Sentinel spam, with little else.

While on topic of damage types - Jagdmammuth has inf_missile type, so that might be why it is weaker against russian tanks overall.

Was done by RotR DevTeam in order to reduce it's damage against buildings. But worry not, against Sentinels they're extremely efficient, due to their penetrator rounds. Those should be used most of the time.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 10 May 2014, 19:41

[Maxner12]

Question: what about the mortar truck? Will it have any stat change in 1.85? Do you plan to alter any stat of it in your patch?
In my opinion it doesn't perform too well.

[XAttus]

Errrr.... why change whats not broken? The sentinel is certainly not. With a pricetag that will benefit a lot more from mass production I think its just fine.

And if you think that Jagdmammuts are weak against (russian) tanks then try penetrator shells. Especially on sentinels... you'll be surprised.