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Paladin tanks (and spec ops) rarely seen, why?
clarissemcclella...
post 9 Jan 2018, 10:51
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I have been watching a lot of replays lately and I noticed that paladin tanks and spec ops (Pathfinders and Seals) are rarely used. So I'd like to ask the more experienced players in this forum, why is that? And in what kind of scenario would you use them, if any?

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GeneralAziz
post 9 Jan 2018, 13:15
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They are used actually i think the replays you were watching are old

(USA)Bruce does use pathfinders and sometimes paladins , Knjaz does use paladins almost everytime i see him play US , Its a really good tank and can be used against any faction honestly what not to like about paladins

Pathfinder are really useful honestly you get great vision of the map and the enemy by using them as stealthed scouting units And can be used to kill both GLA defences without revealing themselves so thats cool, Knjaz Bruce Ado the US players i usually play with/against use them

good luck

This post has been edited by GeneralAziz: 9 Jan 2018, 13:17


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Mizo
post 9 Jan 2018, 13:32
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Thing is , in most heated matches, players would often save up their points until rank 3 , especially USA , since they can quickly get access to their most powerful assets, that being leaflet A-10s and carpet bomber combos right away. This is often more useful than investing in a point right away on assets that are either conditional , or late game-ish.


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clarissemcclella...
post 9 Jan 2018, 15:25
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QUOTE (GeneralAziz @ 9 Jan 2018, 13:15) *
Its a really good tank and can be used against any faction honestly what not to like about paladins


exactly, though I wish they'd still fry infantry with their PDLs (pls correct me if they still do).

QUOTE (Mizo @ 9 Jan 2018, 13:32) *
Thing is , in most heated matches, players would often save up their points until rank 3 , especially USA , since they can quickly get access to their most powerful assets, that being leaflet A-10s and carpet bomber combos right away. This is often more useful than investing in a point right away on assets that are either conditional , or late game-ish.


so do you save up one or two points until/after you reach/ed rank 5 to unlock these units if need be or do you only use them when you see early-early mid game that it's a rather slow match and only in that case unlock late game units?

This post has been edited by clarissemcclellan: 9 Jan 2018, 15:27
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Zion
post 9 Jan 2018, 17:05
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its a style of play, not many people use it cuz its not their style, most high level players use them, I know i use paladins all the time vs gla and eca, cuz they rek gla and eca late game, mix them with avengers and microwave tanks.. and u need pdl upgrade
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clarissemcclella...
post 9 Jan 2018, 17:41
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QUOTE (Zion @ 9 Jan 2018, 17:05) *
its a style of play, not many people use it cuz its not their style, most high level players use them, I know i use paladins all the time vs gla and eca, cuz they rek gla and eca late game, mix them with avengers and microwave tanks.. and u need pdl upgrade


wait, wait...I need to research PDLs so Paladins use them to fry infantry?? I though it just gives PDLs to repair drones and Avengers
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Mizo
post 9 Jan 2018, 17:52
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Paladins no longer zap lazers and no they do not require upgrade to get their PDL.

The only units that do require it are avengers and repair drones if I recall correctly.

QUOTE
so do you save up one or two points until/after you reach/ed rank 5 to unlock these units if need be or do you only use them when you see early-early mid game that it's a rather slow match and only in that case unlock late game units?


It really depends on the matchup and players. Most of the US players I go against don't usually rush the unlocks due to the fact that getting those utility powers as soon as possible can have a bigger impact than having pathfinders or other units at that stage of the game ( early-mid). Although I did see several specific strats using early pathfinders as scouts and then going for seal rush via osprey of Humvee. As for Paladins, Medium players have the tendency to pick it a lot due to it being rather easy to take advantage of, however higher skilled players usually prefer the utility options more, but like I said, it depends on the players and matchup.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 9 Jan 2018, 17:55


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clarissemcclella...
post 9 Jan 2018, 18:04
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i thought so mizo, yes
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(USA)Bruce
post 9 Jan 2018, 22:38
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QUOTE (clarissemcclellan @ 9 Jan 2018, 12:51) *
I have been watching a lot of replays lately and I noticed that paladin tanks and spec ops (Pathfinders and Seals) are rarely used. So I'd like to ask the more experienced players in this forum, why is that? And in what kind of scenario would you use them, if any?



Alright so everyone here is talking on my behalf or talking as if they really play competitive USA.Now If your playing against the AI, do what you want, how ever you want.
I will gladly admit I cant beat Mizo's hardest AI as USA on a 1v1 10k map.What Im about to share is for PVP only




Now lets get real for a second, Paladins are really not for every situation.
Lets examine the matchups shall we? This is all considering the latest public build and not LG patch,

If your against ECA, there's only two projectiles in the entire default arsenal that can be PDL'ed; The Panzerfaust and the Tiger gunship.Tigers use a salvo of rockets in an area attack so who cares if a single one is PDL'ed?
The other thing you can zap is missiles from the Solaris array's S.A.M. site or bulldogs rockets, but bulldog is like the Tiger.You wont see a bulldog used vs enough tanks to kill it, and if they do then the PDL will be a small "bonus" as you wont need to use Battle drones to recover after the engagement.They also take less damage from harrier missiles but if your exposed, It wont take you far.

Now if your versus a china, In the default arsenal there's only TWO missiles in the entire arsenal, Mig fighters and disruptor teams, the PDL needed to engage for both of them can easily be acquired by other means (Not the avenger, the repair drone is sufficient enough)
The other thing that have stuff that can be PDL'ed is the Shenlong EMP missiles or the nuke Han gunships rockets.

Versus GLA, It SHOULD help, but given the stinger sites rate of fire and range or the sole existence of the rocket buggy, any damage it was made to negate is neutralized.
Sure against a grad heavy GLA they are perfect due to the grads slow rate of fire.Versus a GLA your going to use a high number of javelins for the buggies and have trouble jarmen hunting unless you get pathfinders.(we will get there later)
At times I did find it "cute" that the paladin protected my helicopters from distant ural trucks and kept them busy targeting my helicopter while my jets cleared them but it generally doesn't work as mentioned when both players are both equally playing.

If your against a USA.....


Getting to Tier 2, wow if you achieve this without dying to the Humvee avenger viper threerio then I'll tell you that you already won, the foe must be at a disadvantage and you could do anything to beat the foe.Like I'll shake your hand if you can actually get into steady paladin production in a normal 1v1 game, I've played against the other best USA's on the market.For example Rik and Marakar, It never reached T2 in a mirror, EVER


Now against Russia, why do you even want this? Their AT Infantry has an upgrade to ignore all PDL's you have, They have shocktroopers and more conscripts then you'll ever ask for.
A single avenger with the PDL upgrade or two repair drones can neutralize/Ignore an RPG tower.So thats not a good point, then you come to sokols and hellions.

At the end of the day, paladins have less health/cost ratio then a crusader.As US you need your tanks to be meat shields then damage dealers, you have enough dedicated or dedicated damage dealers.Javelins, Jets (Black widows), tomahawks, Wasp hives, Comanches.Your late game problems are usually anti air that can kill ballistic misses and just anti air in general, as all of your artillery either flies and dies easily or can die to a single howitzer hit/heavy sniper hit.US doesn't have issues with late game ECA tanks or defenses that cant engage the air, they have issues with places that have anti missile+anti stealth measures, otherwise microwaves on SND mode can disable most defences without getting killed.So why even bother with brute forcing?Play smarter not harder

By default with no upgrades or battle plans it dies to a Kodiak, because that's what it is, an over glorified Kodiak with a fancy lazer that doesn't have much to zap to make it generally worth it or has too much to zap that you barely feel an impact.When 2.0 comes around there will be alot of changes to what equipment you get so my words

For the real reason people get the armored company GP?

The Patriot Anti air, At tier 1 USA cant really stop Harriers if the ECA player got 2-3 without being scouted and snuck into close range.Two of them can melt nearly an infinate number of avengers, suppress any new avengers produced, Chaff/Deflect Missile defenders, Viper missiles and ground your raptors, plus shoot down your ospreys.

Now when this thing gets available you'll ask why not just use cyclops? Well it costs 6 energy and 2 sokols can kill a power plant (Thats 10 power if its upgraded) or a single frank can stunlock your sentry drone+airfield+power with his ability and disable your anti air.Avengers dies to Goliath hellions most of the time and are able to retreat without being punished, but the Patriot doesn't allow that.

The patriot is simple, basic but it gets the job done.If US doesn't have air superiority (Happens vs ECA mass Wotans with bloodhounds, or grumbles or China in general)
Or vipers/raptors are enough but there's times when the patriot is needed.
How ever if you want to play USA like say you play Russia/China then paladins do more damage and if you don't want to mix your units for a combined armed strike force (This is the bread and butter of the US) It is an armored tank that deals more damage then the crusader.
>Thou if you want to deal damage then you'd get armored company for the composite armor and spam hover crusaders for a faster strike force.

I don't want to loose what I wrote so I'll write another one for Spec ops GP

This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 9 Jan 2018, 23:20


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(USA)Bruce
post 9 Jan 2018, 23:12
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Now we come to Special operations general power,

This one will be shorter (I promise)

This thing unlocks three units,

Lets start with the most simple guy,


The navy Seal, before hand this thing used to only attack infantry and building, now the gun can engage tanks too, but aside from bikes this guy cant even take out technicals with certainty.Im guessing this was a "nerf" as you could just guard mode the seal in a base and he'd kill infantry or structures, Ignoring tanks.Now you gotta babysit him more.
His Kriss Vector (They don't use an M4 like the Image I shared) is not really amazing either, Its just a secondary weapon.

We know what Im about to talk about, the magical C4, the thing that once has contact with a structure destroys it entirely! The C4 is why you get this guy, for 800 at T2 if you can manage to sneak him in then its always cost effective for him to just touch something.It destroys GLA structures too, Including the hole!

The only reason you don't see him as often as you should is because he cant really do much outside on the ground with your attack force.For 800, loosing him to a random howitzer strike is painful and he will try to melee structures such as defenses or tickle anything that isnt infantry with his gun, or even then just get overwhelmed by any infantry unit in general amounts you see at T2.
If you can sneak this guy inside an osprey or HUMVEE from a bases flank and take out the units/defenses with blackwidows/Nighthawks then he will be quite worth the effort.
You need to micro and syenergize him as either a flanking attack or keep him safe inside transports.This isn't something people bother their APM(action per minute) with or sometimes some ECA players here get over paranoid and put too many guard towers for him to be viable.

Plus when your T2 the foe will fill their base with mines, partisans, guard towers, helicopters for your Burton. This unit shares most of the weaknesses Burton has,Also russian buildings rubble bunkers die a second too late so he always takes damage so damage vs Russia is limited.

Do remember that US has the best Mid game force aside from china (China can do anything other factions can do but better aside from stealth)
So generally USA's tactic is to use General powers to either take out the foes production+Power, or to suppress the foes technology with things like seals or airstrikes.



Then we have the killer egg, other known as the Little Bird

For 800 at T0, for some reason people use this lighter version of the already light viper to vulnerable places without any anti air, I personally haven't really seen much use for it.More of a blackhawk guy myself personally
But this does not mean its useless, Rik here has 1000 uses for them and he can maybe better explain it better then me,he uses it for early game combat drops to secure the map I can tell you that much.
At tier 1 with rocket pods I think it gets some extra damage against all targets as the rocket pods should still deal EXPLOSION damage


Then we have the reason why most people pick this GP;


The pathfinder!


These Vegans gone wild are stealthed by default, have an amazing ability to scout in a circle radius around them regardless of terrain and can use a silencer to deal damage without revealing themselves.
They're dedicated Infantry killers that cant kill anything else, their normal fire mode kills most Infantry in one hit.People say you get this for GLA deferences but its mostly for Jarmen.Unless Jarmens in a buss and your getting spammed those really armored 200 dollar radar vans that detect stealth so jarmen can hard counter them, these snipers on silenced mode can easily deny areas to Jarmen.
Without Jarmen your Javelin teams and helicopter can live freely and safely, Javelins will keep buggies away and that's the most difficult unit you'll find to counter as USA if they have enough of a Quad escort or a T2 Ural system set up to deny you the skies.Also speaking of Jarmen, pathfinders also counter MG Boris or any Boris in general well, so you can use them to protect your supply lines, your flanks or your buildings/front line defences

Also from personnel experience, US has a "hard" time against venom spam late game and Venoms are quite popular these days as you cant easily take out the protocol unit with raptors/jets/helicopters, and even if you do the Protocol is for Jumpsets and the cheaper faster stronger felins to be spammed.
US can deal with this with either throwing microwave tanks and hoping the medic escorted squads of infantry just dont...run away or kill this thing.(medics almost allow them to outheal the damage)
Vanguards are good against grouped infantry, like felins but if the guy presses X once hes not going to help you, Rangers dont trade well and because felins can attack the air even black hawks wont be enough.
But you know what will?
Pathfinders, stick to the search and destroy battleplan and the normal firemode (Medics can outheal silenced damage unless you pick/burst your targets)
A 10-30 man fire team will keep them at bay.Just fire, retreat, then go back in, kite them or you might get rushed (Until a single bloodhound comes and enables chaff due to a random missile defender firing at it and you don't have anything to burst/Instakill it and it uses canister rounds to kill all of your pathfinders under 30 seconds


Extra bonus; US works best with combined arms, If you do want an easy time then go for the dedicated attack force.
AKA get armored company AND Spec ops, together the combination is borderline overpowered.

Imagine this; Paladins in the front escorted by a microwave tank against mobs such as volunteers pushing as you have javelins in the back only attacking tanks, while your pathfinders kill any Infantry approaching and your patriots will engage only the aircraft.
This way you donTt have to micro or be frustrated on your units say your tanks attacking that single worker while there's a perfectly good marauder tank there firing at him.

I hope this has helped, but saying all this Im not trying to imply they are under powered or needing of a buff, they are doing what they are meant to do in the first place.

In 2.0 when you cant have both paladins and pathfinders then I'm sure they will get other buffs and upgrades
Edit 1 and 2 for extra thoughts and small fixes.

This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 9 Jan 2018, 23:23


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clarissemcclella...
post 9 Jan 2018, 23:35
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Thanks for your impressive and detailed answer Bruce, it is a really helpful analysis of the two GP's. Now I really look forward to the opinions of Rik and Marakar
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