Story: Balkan Nations Options

[The General]

I remembered one part of the story where countries on Balkan Peninsula were mentioned, so i decided to look for it and post a thread about it.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/rise-of-the-reds...e-built-to-last


As my country is mentioned here, i would like to show certan parts of the story whcih i consider to be mistakes.







Here we can see allies of Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania. I agree that these countries would use the opportunity and get free of western influence, but i think that Slovakia and Greece would also use that chance.
Ukraine is on the map showed as dvided because of the civil war, but even then it wouldn't be devided like on this map. Most of Ukranie would be with Russia, while a small part on North-West would ressist it.

Now the part where my country is mentioned:

In the South, an irredentist military cadre deposed the civilian government of Serbia and promptly used the country's growing strategic partnership with Russia to settle old scores with its neighbours, making it the leading power of the Balkans while the West turned a blind eye.

Accourding to the map "settling old scores" here means that Serbia integrated Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and FYROM ( Macedonia ), while other nations, which are considered as an "enemy" weren't mentioned. Not only that, but Serbia doesn't consider Montenegro and FYROM as enemies at all.
For example, the first country that Serbia would attack would be Albania, because in every war in the ragion they were fighting against Serbia, committing all sorts of atrocities every single time. Very similar situation is with Croatia, while it's a little softer with Bosnia.
Greece would also use the chance and take over the southern part of Albania, as they share the opinion on them with Serbia. Also, when it comes to Russia, Greece would use the chance to get closer to them, not only because of their shared history and friendly relations between their Orthodox people, but because of their dream the "Second Byzantinum" which would also suit Russia. Accourding to my knowledge, Greeks dislike Albanians and Turks, while they can tolerate FYROM ( Macedonains ).
Accourding to that, FYROM ( aka Macedonia ) would most likely be devided between Serbia, Greece and maybe a small part of it would be given to Bulgaria, as they consider it a part of their territories ( mostly Greece ).

The story here could even lead to the forming of Balkan Union, which is one very poppular ideology here ( with Slavic Union and Orthodox Union ). Serbia ( with N. Albania, N. FYROM, Bosnia and Herzegovina, E. Croatia ), Greece ( with S. Albania and S. FYROM), Bulgaria ( with E. FYROM ) and Romania would be united in an union which would be in the Eastern block.
If baltic nations could unite in the story, why couldn't Balkan nations do the same?


The relations on the Balnaks are very complicated, but i tried to make it as simple as it can be. I hope that you can use this information in your future updates, and i hope that in the future you'll pay more attention to the region. As you probably know, geostrategically Balkan is on a very good position, where East and west culture, history and people meet.



In my opinion, there is a lot of potential for a great story here, which could maybe even lead to including some troops of Balkan Union in the Russian faction. Many wars and both world wars were lead on the Balkans, and that is the proof how big this little Peninsula looks on the global scale.
I would be happy to help if you need anything, but as i can't help in developing the game, maybe i can offer a story which would be based on reality, like the game and this mod is.


And to close the topic with a map, this is Balkan Union which i was writing about:

These nations are united in religion, history, culture, way of thinking and political orientation on global scale.






Thank you for reading.

This post has been edited by The General: 30 Jun 2013, 20:47

[MARS]

Interesting thoughts. That map you see in the update isn't dated, but the Casus Belli update re-used it in order to show the initial stage of the Russian invasion, with all the borders unchanged so we can assume that this map was still valid in 2044. After that, a lot of stuff might or might not have changed. Russia's allies could make their own limited contribution to the Russian war effort for example. Greece may be marked as neutral/non-aligned, but they also didn't warn the ECA when the Russian Black Sea Fleet moved into their waters which would allow for three possible explanations: 1.) they were intimidated, 2.) they did this on purpose in order to spite the ECA for kicking them out, 3.) they already had pro-Russian sympathies at that time, but not a standing alliance. As for the Balkan countries, the only things we do know is a.) what the borders look like and b.) that Serbia was the driving force behind the change. It is further implied that there was open fighting, but at the same time, we never learn what life in the 'new Yugoslavia' is actually like: Whether ethnic violence is still widespread OR if the whole thing was built around a legitimate federal structure, albeit with Serbia as the local hegemon. In any case, the countries that already have good relations with Serbia wouldn't need to be persuaded into this by force either. Obviously, all of these elements would make for interesting fanfiction, which is why I'm going to leave these possible stories up to the people who might have a better understanding of the local politics, with the option of declaring them as canon if they fit the overall setting.

[The General]

Interesting thoughts. That map you see in the update isn't dated, but the Casus Belli update re-used it in order to show the initial stage of the Russian invasion, with all the borders unchanged so we can assume that this map was still valid in 2044. After that, a lot of stuff might or might not have changed. Russia's allies could make their own limited contribution to the Russian war effort for example. Greece may be marked as neutral/non-aligned, but they also didn't warn the ECA when the Russian Black Sea Fleet moved into their waters which would allow for three possible explanations: 1.) they were intimidated, 2.) they did this on purpose in order to spite the ECA for kicking them out, 3.) they already had pro-Russian sympathies at that time, but not a standing alliance. As for the Balkan countries, the only things we do know is a.) what the borders look like and b.) that Serbia was the driving force behind the change. It is further implied that there was open fighting, but at the same time, we never learn what life in the 'new Yugoslavia' is actually like: Whether ethnic violence is still widespread OR if the whole thing was built around a legitimate federal structure, albeit with Serbia as the local hegemon. In any case, the countries that already have good relations with Serbia wouldn't need to be persuaded into this by force either. Obviously, all of these elements would make for interesting fanfiction, which is why I'm going to leave these possible stories up to the people who might have a better understanding of the local politics, with the option of declaring them as canon if they fit the overall setting.

I like how the story has focused on the big world powers, letting a lot of options for other nations.

I thought that Balkans should get a propper story in the mod, as it was involved in most global events, so i would like to come up with a story focusing on the events in the region after 2044. and post it on the forum, if you guys let me?

This post has been edited by The General: 30 Jun 2013, 21:16

[MARS]

Anyone can write and post their fan-fiction. In fact, other members have posted their own stories on India, Norway, a number of South American countries etc. I'll give them a read and if it fits ROTR's established canon/doesn't directly contradict any of our official stories, it can be added to the canon and - eventually - posted on the story pages of our wiki, with full credit for the writer. This is basically our way of letting fans to shape small, unintrusive elements of the mod which may not have any bearing on the gameplay, but which are obviously interesting for those who also come for the story.

A few points to consider when writing fan-fiction:
- Make sure you have a solid idea of what -is- canon. Generally speaking, anything that you see in an official update is guaranteed to be canon, unless it is phrased in a way to suggest in-universe ambiguity.
- While you can write a gritty war story and explore the tragic dimensions of conflict in general, avoid overly detailed descriptions of war crimes in order to keep things tasteful. Instead, use subtlety and ambiguity so that people can imagine their own horrors when appropriate.
- Do not use a fan-fiction to make a thinly veiled personal statement about political/religous/ethnic groups. You can explore such themes if they have a certain basis in reality, but abusing storytelling for the purpose of slander and personal attacks is not acceptable.
- Special point regarding the Balkan situation: Don't do anything to Slovenia and Croatia. They are already set to make an official appearance in an update way later and for that to remain valid, I 'need' them to remain AS they are implied to be on that map.
- Most important of all: Write an interesting story.

[The General]

Okay then, thank you for the tips. I will try to come up with a story and post it on the forum.

[Anubis]

Given that RotR has quite a few roots in RL events here is my personal insight in this one.
The Balkans were a mess since forever and now even more. Greece is in economic downfall, Cyprus is in economic downfall as well, and in case a regional conflict would appear such as the ECA vs Russia one in Rotr, there is a huge military power on the line that waits in silence and that is Turkey. Cyprus has been a reason for huge diplomatic and even military conflicts between Greece and Turkey. Greece's military is no match to Turkey's which is one of the world's dominant military powers.
Romania is no man's land. Who ever pays it's politicians most will win their hearts. In RotR time line given that USA lost much of the influence, NATO fell and EU failed, Russia would most likely be the next ass Romania 'gladly' kisses.
Serbia will probably never forgive Albania for the Kosovo conflict and due to no NATO or USA, Albania will probably be a prime target. The rest of the old Yugoslavia and Cehoslovakia countries would probably be at the mercy of the elements - aka, depending on how much interest one of the 2 major powers has in them, and how much and who ECA is willing to support as a tampon territory. In short all Balkan countries are economically broken - with the semi-exception of the Czech Republic, which is more or less a German fief. Any local conflict would further damage them and leave behind an even worse looking carcase than it already is, unable to sustain (especially after armed conflicts) itself and under constant social disorder, and quite possibly down right anarchy in some cases. The region already has the worst infrastructure in the western world, and sadly a sustainable economy requires an infrastructure. A military conflict would pretty much destroy the fragile one there is.
It would be interesting to have a Balkan Alliance, but given the history of this region and the deep scars left by old conflicts and social differences i'd say that is pretty much impossible. It's a region that has always been at the mercy of the great powers and sadly if we put aside the pathetic nationalism, it will remain so for a long time, unless some Deep Impact event happens (cheap publicity i know) and the world is reset.
Tl;Dr - in RotR timeline, Balkans would probably more or less be 'neutral' by force towards Russia with maybe a few countries trying to use this in a bossy way which would lead to a further devastation of an already devastated region and by the end of the RotR conflict the region would further become a large pile of scrap and scavengers.

This post has been edited by Anubis: 30 Jun 2013, 21:47

[The General]

Given that RotR has quite a few roots in RL events here is my personal insight in this one.
The Balkans were a mess since forever and now even more. Greece is in economic downfall, Cyprus is in economic downfall as well, and in case a regional conflict would appear such as the ECA vs Russia one in Rotr, there is a huge military power on the line that waits in silence and that is Turkey. Cyprus has been a reason for huge diplomatic and even military conflicts between Greece and Turkey. Greece's military is no match to Turkey's which is one of the world's dominant military powers.
Romania is no man's land. Who ever pays it's politicians most will win their hearts. In RotR time line given that USA lost much of the influence, NATO fell and EU failed, Russia would most likely be the next ass Romania 'gladly' kisses.
Serbia will probably never forgive Albania for the Kosovo conflict and due to no NATO or USA, Albania will probably be a prime target. The rest of the old Yugoslavia and Cehoslovakia countries would probably be at the mercy of the elements - aka, depending on how much interest one of the 2 major powers has in them, and how much and who ECA is willing to support as a tampon territory. In short all Balkan countries are economically broken - with the semi-exception of the Czech Republic, which is more or less a German fief. Any local conflict would further damage them and leave behind an even worse looking carcase than it already is, unable to sustain (especially after armed conflicts) itself and under constant social disorder, and quite possibly down right anarchy in some cases. The region already has the worst infrastructure in the western world, and sadly a sustainable economy requires an infrastructure. A military conflict would pretty much destroy the fragile one there is.
It would be interesting to have a Balkan Alliance, but given the history of this region and the deep scars left by old conflicts and social differences i'd say that is pretty much impossible. It's a region that has always been at the mercy of the great powers and sadly if we put aside the pathetic nationalism, it will remain so for a long time, unless some Deep Impact event happens (cheap publicity i know) and the world is reset.
Tl;Dr - in RotR timeline, Balkans would probably more or less be 'neutral' by force towards Russia with maybe a few countries trying to use this in a bossy way which would lead to a further devastation of an already devastated region and by the end of the RotR conflict the region would further become a large pile of scrap and scavengers.

I don't blame you for thinking like that, but it's mass propaganda which shaped your opinion. Serbia for one, is more than capable to support itself if left alone by the west, that's why it's not left alone. Greece's economy collapsed because of EU, which doesn't exist anymore in RotR. Also, when ever times are hard the world, or in this case the regions, go to war.

You forget that the region would be left on it's own in the RotR world, free from western powers. Serbia, for one, if left alone can heal in maybe even less than a decade, and have enough to support it's people on it's own. Vojvodina (a region of Serbia) was called a "granary of Yougoslavia", because it almost completly alone feeded more than twenty million people ( and had enough left in the warehouses for one and a half year in case of war ). Serbia today has around seven million people, so surely it could provide food. Russia could provide weapons, even tough Serbia produces some military equipment ( eg. zastava arms ).
In history, Russia always had a goal to come out to "warm seas", and that's why she tried to create "greater bulgaria" in the San Stefano peace treaty, to use it in their interests as a puppet state. That is exactly why it would support Serbia and other allied countries in the region to unite and have a respected army in the RotR universe.

Turkey is a recognizable world power, but they are not nearly strong enough to stand up to Russia. Vast majority of Turkey's profits come from sales to EU, which collapsed in RotR. Turkey wouldn't be what it is now without EU, so in the RotR they would be much weaker.

However, you're completly right about Albania being the first target.

This post has been edited by The General: 30 Jun 2013, 22:13

[Pepo]

i think that the balcans would be an interesting setting for a fan fiction.their political situacion is very intetesting.but i think that after eca isolated,things will star to be bad for some countries and wars would surely start.

and general,please don't mention mass media anymore.basically everypne is influected by media,only that we normally doesn't notice

[Nemanja]

Accourding to the map "settling old scores" here means that Serbia integrated Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and FYROM ( Macedonia ), while other nations, which are considered as an "enemy" weren't mentioned. Not only that, but Serbia doesn't consider Montenegro and FYROM as enemies at all.
For example, the first country that Serbia would attack would be Albania, because in every war in the ragion they were fighting against Serbia, committing all sorts of atrocities every single time. Very similar situation is with Croatia, while it's a little softer with Bosnia.
Greece would also use the chance and take over the southern part of Albania, as they share the opinion on them with Serbia. Also, when it comes to Russia, Greece would use the chance to get closer to them, not only because of their shared history and friendly relations between their Orthodox people, but because of their dream the "Second Byzantinum" which would also suit Russia. Accourding to my knowledge, Greeks dislike Albanians and Turks, while they can tolerate FYROM ( Macedonains ).
Accourding to that, FYROM ( aka Macedonia ) would most likely be devided between Serbia, Greece and maybe a small part of it would be given to Bulgaria, as they consider it a part of their territories ( mostly Greece ).

The story here could even lead to the forming of Balkan Union, which is one very poppular ideology here ( with Slavic Union and Orthodox Union ). Serbia ( with N. Albania, N. FYROM, Bosnia and Herzegovina, E. Croatia ), Greece ( with S. Albania and S. FYROM), Bulgaria ( with E. FYROM ) and Romania would be united in an union which would be in the Eastern block.
If baltic nations could unite in the story, why couldn't Balkan nations do the same?


The relations on the Balnaks are very complicated, but i tried to make it as simple as it can be. I hope that you can use this information in your future updates, and i hope that in the future you'll pay more attention to the region. As you probably know, geostrategically Balkan is on a very good position, where East and west culture, history and people meet.



In my opinion, there is a lot of potential for a great story here, which could maybe even lead to including some troops of Balkan Union in the Russian faction. Many wars and both world wars were lead on the Balkans, and that is the proof how big this little Peninsula looks on the global scale.
I would be happy to help if you need anything, but as i can't help in developing the game, maybe i can offer a story which would be based on reality, like the game and this mod is.

Why in fuck would Serbia attack Albania ? They were fighting against Serbia in every war ?
Was Serbia ever officially in war with Albania ? They were tending goats until 1942,when Hitler
decided to brainwash them and spill them stories how they are Aryan race and how half of Balkans belongs to them . . .

But attacking Albania ? Just why ? Conquering their territory (like on your picture) just to enlarge current problem - more angry Albanians in Serbia . . .

Every battle Serbia had against Albanians were against silly gangs and quasi militias meant to be decoys to Serbia to get caught by more organized foes.

Macedonians . . . "Macedonians" would be never,ever tolerated be Greeks . . . NEVER.
Until they change their name,which would hardly happen.

They would also hardly consider joining Bulgaria,because they seem to became allergic to their closest relatives,in fact they are same thing,
similar case like with Milo's Montenegrins and Serbians.



As for map from old ROTR update . . .

RL Russia already had a plan for end of Balkan territorial disputes,but it was rejected.
Plan was to split Bosnia and Herzegovina in two parts,giving Republika Srpska to Serbia,
and remaining one to Croatia,Montenegro also to Serbia,with little Northern part of Kosovo
populated with Serbs.Albania would receive huge part of Kosovo and some parts of FYROM,
and yeah,rest of FYROM would also go to Serbia.

[The General]

i think that the balcans would be an interesting setting for a fan fiction.their political situacion is very intetesting.but i think that after eca isolated,things will star to be bad for some countries and wars would surely start.

and general,please don't mention mass media anymore.basically everypne is influected by media,only that we normally doesn't notice

The isolation of ECA in RotR universe suited Serbia first, and Greece second the most. Basicly, it would be what Serbia is waiting for, "payback time". With the support of Russia which basicly saved Eastern Europe and lack of support for the other party, war would make certan countries regaint some of their territories and increase their influence on the global scale.


Not everyone is influenced by media in the significant ammount. But i live on the Balkans, so i know what's realy going on, just like everyoen else knows the real situation in their own region.

[The General]

Why in fuck would Serbia attack Albania ? They were fighting against Serbia in every war ?
Was Serbia ever officially in war with Albania ? They were tending goats until 1942,when Hitler
decided to brainwash them and spill them stories how they are Aryan race and how half of Balkans belongs to them . . .

But attacking Albania ? Just why ? Conquering their territory (like on your picture) just to enlarge current problem - more angry Albanians in Serbia . . .

Every battle Serbia had against Albanians were against silly gangs and quasi militias meant to be decoys to Serbia to get caught by more organized foes.

Macedonians . . . "Macedonians" would be never,ever tolerated be Greeks . . . NEVER.
Until they change their name,which would hardly happen.

They would also hardly consider joining Bulgaria,because they seem to became allergic to their closest relatives,in fact they are same thing,
similar case like with Milo's Montenegrins and Serbians.



As for map from old ROTR update . . .

RL Russia already had a plan for end of Balkan territorial disputes,but it was rejected.
Plan was to split Bosnia and Herzegovina in two parts,giving Republika Srpska to Serbia,
and remaining one to Croatia,Montenegro also to Serbia,with little Northern part of Kosovo
populated with Serbs.Albania would receive huge part of Kosovo and some parts of FYROM,
and yeah,rest of FYROM would also go to Serbia.

Okay then, history in short:

*Albania
From when the Ottoman occupid the region, Albanians came to the Balkans and they were helping Ottomans with Serbia. True, in balkan wars they weren't so involved, but that's because they had no one to lead them. After that, Serbia lost North Albania because western powers didn't want Serbia to have it's own coast. That's whan Albanian country was created. However, in first world wars they still didn't have a leader, so they were irrelevant.
From second world war they got occupied by Italy, which later gave them Kosovo and created the ideology of "Greater Albania" which they are trying to achieve now. After the war and Tito which decided to let them stay, they provoked a conflict with Serbian security forces on Kosovo which lead to war. After that, nato aggression and occupation of Kosovo.
Then, their separatism and hatered towards Serbia, FYROM and Greece rises.

*Macedonia ( FYROM )
Macedonans were a Greek tribe which lived off the coast of the sea, and because of that they were rejected by the rest of Greek tribes. They were slovenized by Serbs, so today they are Slavic people, not anicent Macedonans. Macedonia is a region where they live, which was a part of Serbia. Greeks just don't want them to be named "Macedonans" because some people might connect them with the anicent Macedonians, while vast majority of them is Slavic now. That's why they aggreed on the name "Former Yougoslavic Republick of Macedonia" ( F.Y.R.O.M. ), it was given the status of a Republick when Tito devided Yougoslavia on it's unnatural borders, creating new nations in the process ( Bosnian, Macedonian ) and supporting the ones which were created before ( Croats ).





RotR is founded on reality, but it's not following the reality. In RotR, EU collapsed, Eastern Europe is abandoned by ECA and left on it's own.
Albanian separatism would because of that be solved on itself, because they wouldn't have an ally, a country which would provide them with things which they would need. Most of Albanians would run away to other countries, mostly Italy.
And as Serbia is mentioned as "a driving force" in the region, it wouldn't have any problems with liberating occupied territories.

Revenge is a very powerful motive. Direct border with eachother is what both Serbia and Greece wanted for a long time.


The Russian plan about Kosovo that you're talking about i never heard of, they did suggest that we split Bosnia, but that was when Yeltsin was the "president". Formal policy of Russia is to support any position Serbia takes, not decide on it's behaf or interfear in their business.





Now can we please come back to RotR?

This post has been edited by The General: 30 Jun 2013, 23:34

[Nemanja]

Okay then, history in short:

*Albania
From when the Ottoman occupid the region, Albanians came to the Balkans and they were helping Ottomans with Serbia. True, in balkan wars they weren't so involved, but that's because they had no one to lead them. After that, Serbia lost North Albania because western powers didn't want Serbia to have it's own coast. That's whan Albanian country was created. However, in first world wars they still didn't have a leader, so they were irrelevant.
From second world war they got occupied by Italy, which later gave them Kosovo and created the ideology of "Greater Albania" which they are trying to achieve now. After the war and Tito which decided to let them stay, they provoked a conflict with Serbian security forces on Kosovo which lead to war. After that, nato aggression and occupation of Kosovo.
Then, their separatism and hatered towards Serbia, FYROM and Greece rises.

*Macedonia ( FYROM )
Macedonans were a Greek tribe which lived off the coast of the sea, and because of that they were rejected by the rest of Greek tribes. They were slovenized by Serbs, so today they are Slavic people, not anicent Macedonans. Macedonia is a region where they live, which was a part of Serbia. Greeks just don't want them to be named "Macedonans" because some people might connect them with the anicent Macedonians, while vast majority of them is Slavic now. That's why they aggreed on the name "Former Yougoslavic Republick of Macedonia" ( F.Y.R.O.M. ), it was given the status of a Republick when Tito devided Yougoslavia on it's unnatural borders, creating new nations in the process ( Bosnian, Macedonian ) and supporting the ones which were created before ( Croats ).





RotR is founded on reality, but it's not following the reality. In RotR, EU collapsed, Eastern Europe is abandoned by ECA and left on it's own.
Albanian separatism would because of that be solved on itself, because they wouldn't have an ally, a country which would provide them with things which they would need. Most of Albanians would run away to other countries, mostly Italy.
And as Serbia is mentioned as "a driving force" in the region, it wouldn't have any problems with liberating occupied territories.

Revenge is a very powerful motive. Direct border with eachother is what both Serbia and Greece wanted for a long time.


The Russian plan about Kosovo that you're talking about i never heard of, they did suggest that we split Bosnia, but that was when Yeltsin was the "president". Formal policy of Russia is to support any position Serbia takes, not decide on it's behaf or interfear in their business.





Now can we please come back to RotR?

Let's clear some things first,I am Serbian and you don't have to talk to me this Šešelj gibberish,I am listening to it last 20 years.

I don't know why every once in a while there have to appear some Serbian talking how they are real victims of Yugo wars,
about how Serbia was super powerful during Car Dušan's era and how Kosovo is heart of Serbia . . .

Why every second Serbian on the internet have to vindicate its compatriots actions in front of foreigners ?
Did Serbia nuked someone,used chemicals on civilians,commenced holocaust,obtruded language and religion,
colonized Africa,South America and most of Asia,started every single war since the WW2 ? No.
So I really don't think that there is need for any excuse here nor anywhere,we are all humans,
we are all potential killers,rapists,thieves,we all shit,piss,sweat,bleed and have bad breath in the morning.

"Serbia lost North Albania because western powers..."
You are spreading silent hate here towards Albanians,but here you say that Serbia need few millions more inside its borders . . .

Policy of people that think like you young sir is one of the main reasons why this once proud country is fuck'd . . .
Once upon a time one wise man said : "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".
And we are here talking about less than two decades into the past.

Until you and your coevals in Kosovo don't change your views of lives towards positive stuff,I am afraid that
Prince Lazar's curse would live on.

Peace.

[Kalga]

Um guys... can everyone calm down here before Hunter or MARS shut down this thread due to this becoming misplaced nationalism fueled flame war?

If anyone want to seriously debate the finer points of Balkan history they are free to start a thread in General Chat.

[SpiralSpectre]

Can't we just agree that while ROTR was founded on reality it isn't strictly based on realism and any inconsistency or "mistake" found in the storyline is actually caused by ROTR's history of that place being different from RL? I mean let's seriously consider this - how many of you here, specially most of the Europeans here, seriously think the EU would be dissolved or want that to happen? If you can accept that and be happy with it then what's wrong with accepting a few more surprises? It's a story for a mod of a base game with a seriously wacky story, all of it doesn't need to and maybe -can't- make complete sense.

And I know this is totally off-topic but I can't help ask, can anyone get me a link to that fanfic about India? Pretty-please?

This post has been edited by SpiralSpectre: 1 Jul 2013, 2:47

[(USA)Bruce]

Did Serbia nuked someone,used chemicals on civilians,commenced holocaust,obtruded language and religion,
colonized Africa,South America and most of Asia,started every single war since the WW2 ? No.
So I really don't think that there is need for any excuse here nor anywhere,we are all humans,
we are all potential killers,rapists,thieves,we all shit,piss,sweat,bleed and have bad breath in the morning.
You are spreading silent hate here towards Albanians,but here you say that Serbia need few millions more inside its borders . . .

Im not going to be involved in this but..... the part with;

"chemicals on civilians,commenced holocaust,obtruded language and religion,"
That part bugged me abit....
Theres about 8thousand (Officaly accepted number) of souls in Bosnia thats been judged and given "Peace" to thier lives thanks to thier ethnicy and religon....
Plus theres a ton of "Serbs used chemical weapon" stuff online,
Check this post from 98 (allegedly) Or this one from BBC itself saying it maybe just stress Try this one thats newer but just states the production of the thing
Edit; Some brits even find some "Strange" evidence

Thing is; After a war there will always be people who disagree or simply are bastards that throw dirt apon the other side....
So at worst and best case scenerio, serbs arent as clean as your trying to market bro...
Im not sure wich is wich, I'll probably never know cause I wasnt there to begin with,Not even fully aware of the whole conflict and its history

There seems to be alot of clashing views on the Balkans and how they would react to the whole fictional/wildly presumeable far future.Mostly cause of the past, well we cant change the lore thats based on RL that much, or I'd have found a way to make the whole "stealthfighter knocked out of the skies" thing non existant

Im pretty sure everyone made thier little point, now the question is whos fanfics will be interesting enough to be canon?
Fun idea; Why dont both of you write a canony fanfic that'll be viewed as the two diffrent truths of the Balkans explaining why they were like that? To add to the grey morality of the whole universe...
Trust me writings quite hard if your employed and stuff, get unexpected delays every single damn time

This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 1 Jul 2013, 4:52

[The General]

Let's clear some things first,I am Serbian and you don't have to talk to me this Šešelj gibberish,I am listening to it last 20 years.

I don't know why every once in a while there have to appear some Serbian talking how they are real victims of Yugo wars,
about how Serbia was super powerful during Car Dušan's era and how Kosovo is heart of Serbia . . .

Why every second Serbian on the internet have to vindicate its compatriots actions in front of foreigners ?
Did Serbia nuked someone,used chemicals on civilians,commenced holocaust,obtruded language and religion,
colonized Africa,South America and most of Asia,started every single war since the WW2 ? No.
So I really don't think that there is need for any excuse here nor anywhere,we are all humans,
we are all potential killers,rapists,thieves,we all shit,piss,sweat,bleed and have bad breath in the morning.

"Serbia lost North Albania because western powers..."
You are spreading silent hate here towards Albanians,but here you say that Serbia need few millions more inside its borders . . .

Policy of people that think like you young sir is one of the main reasons why this once proud country is fuck'd . . .
Once upon a time one wise man said : "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".
And we are here talking about less than two decades into the past.

Until you and your coevals in Kosovo don't change your views of lives towards positive stuff,I am afraid that
Prince Lazar's curse would live on.

Peace.

Like in every country, there are people who are diferent. You are against the idea of "all Serbs living in one country", i am not. You think it's all our fault, i don't. We can agree or dissagree, but we can not discuss facts.

Everything i wrote there is a fact, and as a man who lives here i have a right to claim that i know what happaned here better than any other foreigner.
I am not spreading any hate. Albania was made in 1912. just to prevent Serbia from getting it's own part of the sea, as Serbia was always seen as a "Russian right hand" on the Balkans, by the western powers.

I wasn't even planning to write about the past. I wanted to use the relations between certan nations on the Balkans for a fanfiction, without blaming any side for anything. You're the one which started the history stuff, so i asked you to come back to RotR world, as this topic is about to be about.

[The General]

Can't we just agree that while ROTR was founded on reality it isn't strictly based on realism and any inconsistency or "mistake" found in the storyline is actually caused by ROTR's history of that place being different from RL? I mean let's seriously consider this - how many of you here, specially most of the Europeans here, seriously think the EU would be dissolved or want that to happen? If you can accept that and be happy with it then what's wrong with accepting a few more surprises? It's a story for a mod of a base game with a seriously wacky story, all of it doesn't need to and maybe -can't- make complete sense.

And I know this is totally off-topic but I can't help ask, can anyone get me a link to that fanfic about India? Pretty-please?

I agree, but the mod and the game itself is based on reality, so it's natural to expect that every start of it would be based on reality. The story about Balkan, or better a sentence about Balkan, was half-based on reality. What i wanted to do here is use certan ideas from reality ( Balkan Union and Second Byzantinum), and shape them accourding to the relations in the region. That's the only part from reality i was about to use, because the dissolution of EU in the RotR changed a lot anyway.

[Anubis]

I don't blame you for thinking like that, but it's mass propaganda which shaped your opinion. Serbia for one, is more than capable to support itself if left alone by the west, that's why it's not left alone. Greece's economy collapsed because of EU, which doesn't exist anymore in RotR. Also, when ever times are hard the world, or in this case the regions, go to war.

The last thing you should do is accuse me of listening to propaganda.
My reasoning for what i wrote is quite simple - the region has been systematically screwed by major powers since forever. From the 'barbaric days' when the region was split between local populations, the invading barbarians and the east/west roman empire, to later the Ottoman Empire which pretty much conquered the whole region, to the later kingdoms time which were also under Ottoman, Russian, Polish and Austrian Empire, and later in the WW1-WW2 times when the region became a pawn in the hands of - once again major world powers of that time. The Balkans have never been a major force of it's own deciding the fates of other countries but their own local neighbors, but have always been the pawns of major powers - it's simple history.
While in RotR case - i think i made it clear that the Balkans economy is fragile, and would only be broken to almost beyond repair status by a conflict between the countries in it. I have visited Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia and their infrastructure is nothing compared to that of western countries. A war would further destroy the one that already exists crippling the whole economy. In short, the Balkan countries are rising economies at it's best (and would be so if EU and USA wouldn't fuck us up systematically) and with the fall of EU in RotR and the start of a conflict, this rising economies would collapse under their own infant weight. Wars cost alot both in human and in materials form, and an economy that is fragile in peace time would have some really hard time regaining its momentum when it has financed only the warmachine.
In real-life wars and economy are alooooooot different than in games. A simple miscalculation at the national bank or stock exchange can have a major effect on the country's economy. And that's just a digit. A war has the huge chance to brake the country so much it would take decades to reach the point it was before the war, especially if that given country isn't exactly Germany or USA. You are forgetting that most of the Balkans economy is based on local trades, so a conflict in the region would pretty much screw that up. In RotR with the fall of EU and the isolation of western Europe, trading would be even harder with the west due the additional taxes and border control. A conflict would pretty much freeze that. Like this example there are many others.
This ain't propaganda - it's basic logic under a basic economic and historic knowledge.
In short - i stand by what i said - Balkan alliance in RotR timeline is out of the questions due to ancient feuds in the area and the Russian influence. Russia would never allow such a thing for the simple fact that it could cripple at some point their own power in the region (nor would ECA for the same exact reason) - the point is divide et impera not viceversa, and it's a strategy that has kept the Balkans divided for ages. Major powers don't want another power to rise because it means less milk for them. It wouldn't be just Russia and ECA that would oppose this, China (even in RL they have major interests in this region) as well as what is left of USA's influence would do anything to stop this from happening, again for a very logical and quite realistic reason - less new power = more old power.

This post has been edited by Anubis: 1 Jul 2013, 8:54

[The General]

Im not going to be involved in this but..... the part with;

"chemicals on civilians,commenced holocaust,obtruded language and religion,"
That part bugged me abit....
Theres about 8thousand (Officaly accepted number) of souls in Bosnia thats been judged and given "Peace" to thier lives thanks to thier ethnicy and religon....
Plus theres a ton of "Serbs used chemical weapon" stuff online,
Check this post from 98 (allegedly) Or this one from BBC itself saying it maybe just stress Try this one thats newer but just states the production of the thing
Edit; Some brits even find some "Strange" evidence

Thing is; After a war there will always be people who disagree or simply are bastards that throw dirt apon the other side....
So at worst and best case scenerio, serbs arent as clean as your trying to market bro...
Im not sure wich is wich, I'll probably never know cause I wasnt there to begin with,Not even fully aware of the whole conflict and its history

There seems to be alot of clashing views on the Balkans and how they would react to the whole fictional/wildly presumeable far future.Mostly cause of the past, well we cant change the lore thats based on RL that much, or I'd have found a way to make the whole "stealthfighter knocked out of the skies" thing non existant

Im pretty sure everyone made thier little point, now the question is whos fanfics will be interesting enough to be canon?
Fun idea; Why dont both of you write a canony fanfic that'll be viewed as the two diffrent truths of the Balkans explaining why they were like that? To add to the grey morality of the whole universe...
Trust me writings quite hard if your employed and stuff, get unexpected delays every single damn time

Just to answer on the claims, it's mostly propaganda making you think like that. Tere were civilian casualties on all sides, but the western media is exaggerating when it comes to enemies of Serbia, and lowering the number when it comes to Serbia itself. I can't say that every single thing they say is a lie, but i can say that the numbers they use are completly false.
One more thing, please avoid using sorces like BBC, CNN, DW and similar news channels when you're discussing with me, because all i'm going to do is ask you where are the weapons of mass destruction which Iraq had, and make a point.


The stories about Balkans can't be opposite or that different, as in RotR Russia came back to the Balkans, which suited Serbia the most ( and as RotR plot itself said, it became the driving force in the region ). From the base which is made of semi-reality, i want to make a story which would be appropriate for the situation in RotR.
For Serbia in RotR, i see only two possibilities.
First, Serbia uses the chance, which i want to write about.
Second, Serbia does nothing, which is boring and a waste of potential in my opinion.

[The General]

The last thing you should do is accuse me of listening to propaganda.
My reasoning for what i wrote is quite simple - the region has been systematically screwed by major powers since forever. From the 'barbaric days' when the region was split between local populations, the invading barbarians and the east/west roman empire, to later the Ottoman Empire which pretty much conquered the whole region, to the later kingdoms time which were also under Ottoman, Russian, Polish and Austrian Empire, and later in the WW1-WW2 times when the region became a pawn in the hands of - once again major world powers of that time. The Balkans have never been a major force of it's own deciding the fates of other countries but their own local neighbors, but have always been the pawns of major powers - it's simple history.
While in RotR case - i think i made it clear that the Balkans economy is fragile, and would only be broken to almost beyond repair status by a conflict between the countries in it. I have visited Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia and their infrastructure is nothing compared to that of western countries. A war would further destroy the one that already exists crippling the whole economy. In short, the Balkan countries are rising economies at it's best (and would be so if EU wouldn't fuck us up systematically) and with the fall of EU in RotR and the start of a conflict, this rising economies would collapse under their own infant weight. Wars cost alot both in human and in materials form, and an economy that is fragile in peace time would have some really hard time regaining its momentum when it has financed only the warmachine.
In real-life wars and economy is alooooooot different than in games. A simple miscalculation at the national bank or stock exchange can have a major effect on the country's economy. And that's just a digit. A war has the huge chance to brake the country so much it would take decades to reach the point it was before the war, especially if that given country isn't exactly Germany or USA. You are forgetting that most of the Balkans economy is based on local trades, so a conflict in the region would pretty much screw that up. In RotR with the fall of EU and the isolation of western Europe, trading would be even harder with the west due the additional taxes and border control. A conflict would pretty much freeze that. Like this example there are many others.
This ain't propaganda - it's basic logic under a basic economic and historic knowledge.

Well, first i'm not accusing you fo anything, i'm simply noticing west propaganda had some influence on you.


You're missing the point. In RotR, as EU fell and ECA isolated, there is only one possibility for the nations of Eastern Europe, and that's Russia. Russia as a major power would most likely use the chance and rise their influence on the region in the process, helping allied nations. I think we can agree that Serbia would also see it's chance, and make a deal with Russia. After all, it is said that Serbia "became the driving force of the region", which could mean that the economy wasn't as damaged as other economies in the region. With the Russian help and without any serious opposition, in a decade Serbia could get back on it's feet.
And anyway, you forgot that in the years of cold war Serbia was exporting the most to Russia ( USSR ), so i don't see why that couldn't happen in RotR too. As a major power, Russia is a huge market for Serbian producst, mostly agriculture and food production in general.

[Anubis]

I think we are making pretty much the same point but in different forms. My only rant was that the Balkans RotR timeline would just not be allowed to unite in any form of union due to mostly Russia's influence, because a united Balkans would mean another major power. My other point was that pretty much all of the Balkans would turn to Russia as an ally not just Serbia. And my third and final point was that war in the Balkans between the countries in it would probably be a huge possibility due to ancient feuds, but between who is a matter of which of the Balkan countries would easily fall under Russia's influence and which of them would keep an ECA/USA partnership. And the end result of such a conflict would in no way be a united strong Balkan area, but a divided, economically and socially broken area that would require decades to repair to the level it is now.
So yes, Russia would be the ass the Balkans would turn to - more or less a friendly turn, and yes at least 1 conflict between some of the Balkan countries would spark. But the result of such a conflict would in no way be anything glorious, but crippling at its best. And given that in RotR ECA eventually drives the Russians back and that China and USA will have a major part to play in that means that any country in the Balkans that allied with the Russians by it's own choice would eventually be bashed by the new Europe power as well as USA and China, and as always the victors would divide the spoils of war between them.

This post has been edited by Anubis: 1 Jul 2013, 10:32

[The General]

I think we are making pretty much the same point but in different forms. My only rant was that the Balkans RotR timeline would just not be allowed to unite in any form of union due to mostly Russia's influence, because a united Balkans would mean another major power. My other point was that pretty much all of the Balkans would turn to Russia as an ally not just Serbia. And my third and final point was that war in the Balkans between the countries in it would probably be a huge possibility due to ancient feuds, but between who is a matter of which of the Balkan countries would easily fall under Russia's influence and which of them would keep an ECA/USA partnership. And the end result of such a conflict would in no way be a united strong Balkan area, but a divided, economically and socially broken area that would require decades to repair to the level it is now.
So yes, Russia would be the ass the Balkans would turn to - more or less a friendly turn, and yes at least 1 conflict between some of the Balkan countries would spark. But the result of such a conflict would in no way be anything glorious, but crippling at its best. And given that in RotR ECA eventually drives the Russians back and that China and USA will have a major part to play in that means that any country in the Balkans that allied with the Russians by it's own choice would eventually be bashed by the new Europe power as well as USA and China, and as always the victors would divide the spoils of war between them.

If economy is broken, that means military is broken. If a country, let's say Serbia, allies with Russia and fixes it's economy, makes it's military stronger, any ressistance would be absolete. Not to mention that certan countries would just wellcome Serbia in as saviours, as that would give them hope that their eceony and their lives can be repaired.

Russia would be the only and most important ally of the Union, as that would make their position on the Balkans stronger without even them having to be there. Balkan Union, couldn't be more than a sole second class military force, so that would make attacking any world power ridiculous. Defending against ECA and USA invasion holding them until Russia can strike back on the other hand, could be possible in my opinion. The only thing the Union could do is strenghten it's influence in the region, make more ties with Russia and making sure they are not an easy target for anyone. The Union's economy would be stable, military respected by everyone and it's people would be living normal lives.


If they make the end, the story will be ruined in my opinion. I hate those kind of games where there's a scenario where you just follow the story, not choose a side and lead it to victory, yes, mostly because it always ends with "the west won and liberated ( aka occupied ) other countries".
I got an impression that the story will be left in the "fierce fighting" between the sides, it will be on the player to decide which side will win. Am i wrong?

[MARS]

Actually, there will be a definitive end to the story and the war, but I can tell you right now that it -won't- just boil down to ECA/US forces slogging their way to Moscow and raising a neo-NATO flag on top of the Kremlin. The war will end and you're all going to see how, but it's a conclusion that'll leave neither side as the true victor or loser in the long run.

[Anubis]

If economy is broken, that means military is broken. If a country, let's say Serbia, allies with Russia and fixes it's economy, makes it's military stronger, any ressistance would be absolete. Not to mention that certan countries would just wellcome Serbia in as saviours, as that would give them hope that their eceony and their lives can be repaired.

Russia would be the only and most important ally of the Union, as that would make their position on the Balkans stronger without even them having to be there. Balkan Union, couldn't be more than a sole second class military force, so that would make attacking any world power ridiculous. Defending against ECA and USA invasion holding them until Russia can strike back on the other hand, could be possible in my opinion. The only thing the Union could do is strenghten it's influence in the region, make more ties with Russia and making sure they are not an easy target for anyone. The Union's economy would be stable, military respected by everyone and it's people would be living normal lives.


If they make the end, the story will be ruined in my opinion. I hate those kind of games where there's a scenario where you just follow the story, not choose a side and lead it to victory, yes, mostly because it always ends with "the west won and liberated ( aka occupied ) other countries".
I got an impression that the story will be left in the "fierce fighting" between the sides, it will be on the player to decide which side will win. Am i wrong?

Atm all im getting is you're either Serbian or have deep sentimental links to Serbia. A Balkan union would not be a success even in RotR timeline because of 2 things i've already tried to explain but you seem to be really reluctant to understand them. No one would welcome Serbia as the savior anywhere. The first thing countries of the former USSR block did was to brake up not remain united. This was not a western world thing as much as it was a local population decision. I understand you like Serbia, but there's a frekin reason countries broke up the day after USSR failed - to many feuds, to many differences.

Again, a union would on the long term represent a threat to Russia's interests. Unions become major players in terms of economic and military power, and if there is something history can teach you and anyone else is that once someone gains a bit of power is starts to bite the hand that feed it. The moment the Balkan Union would get a bit of momentum in overall development it would start to oppose some of the stuff Russia would ask. This is exactly why any major power in the world would oppose such a union especially in a region that has always been a tampon between major players. As i said before the interest is divide et impera not unite them so they can later screw you.

Sure Serbia would try to get their power in the region, but let's take Romania for example. Black Sea, One of the biggest gold deposits in Europe/World in it's mountains, oil resources and tons of schist gas deposits, as well as one of the major armies in this region with both American and European tech in it. I can just as well say given this is a fictional universe that using all this bonuses Romania would make a deal with Russia to be the major player in the Region since position wise, it's placed well better than Serbia, being a border territory between the east and the west. And like Romania there's other countries that would have the same frekin interest to become Russia's favorite pet. Greece for example would have major headaches with Turkey and Macedonia (for the retarded reason of it's name) and Greece is also one of the best strategically positioned countries in the Balkans. When a major power like Russia decides to aid someone into being a major player in the region it takes into consideration alot more than just some past relations.

The second thing i want to address is this - the only way to unite the Balkans is through open conflict as no country atm would recognize another one as savior or superior. And a united Balkans through military conflict is downright stupid for 3 major reasons:

1 - there are many countries in it with enough military power to stand against the other, so the only way 1 country would win is if Russians would help them, and there is nothing Serbia can offer for that that other Balkan countries can't at a much higher amount.

2- the fact countries in this region couldn't wait to brake up post USSR shows great division between them, so united by force would only lead to social disorder and pretty much civil war every day. Not to mention that most Balkan countries have a history of totalitarian ruling, so any country that becomes the center would also eventually become totalitarian within the union.

3 - even if in your fairytale land Balkan countries would all of a sudden unite with Serbia as the center (which is about as plausible as me having sex with Sasha Grey in the next 5 minutes) and Russia as the motherland, other world powers would use everything in their power to divide this area once again, because it would Cripple Russia's power. It would be USSR all over again and we all know how that ended. Russia went back, Europe and USA took over, and Balkans got fucked further more.

History is not new. It's a continuous wheel that turns. The only changes in it is the tools. The people and the events are the same for the last 2000 years at least and shit will not change over night.

Overall no one looks at a frekin Balkan country as a economy and social savior. Our history proves exactly the opposite. If you want an economy savior you look towards countries with huge financial possibilities on a long term, not to a pet country that may or may not stay in power after a conflict is over.

The only plausible Balkan storyline even in RotR timeline is war. Like it or not countries such as Hungary, Greece, Romania, Czech Republic, Slovakia and even Macedonia would be against Russia given that half of their economy is based on European investments and those wont change just cause EU falls. EU falling doesn't mean that every frekin investment and influence from the western countries would magically disappear.

So final, the region is to divided. No one looks at Serbia as a savior. There is nothing Serbia can offer that other Balkan countries can't as well, and even more. No one would unite around Serbia for anything, no offense if you are Serb. And for the last time - any major power with a single neuron functioning would not allow a union to be formed, for the simple fact that on the long term it can lower their ability to control that region. The single and MOST EFFECTIVE strategy is divide et impera. Balkan union is not plausible, it's not possible due to all the reasons that i posted above. It's not in real life, nor is it in RotR timeline since it follows real life semi close. There's a better chance of a alien race invading Earth this year than having a Balkan union in the next century (under current world status) RotR timeline or not.

This post has been edited by Anubis: 1 Jul 2013, 11:48

[The General]

I'm not saying that all Balkan nations would unite around Serbia, nor that every would wellcome it. The countries which would wellcome Serbian army would be Montenegro and FYROM, as they are already a part of the official story i have to integrate them in Serbia in my story too. Serbia wouldn't fight them, nor would they fight against Serbia, so war is out of the question.
Other countries which would loose territory to Serbia during war wouldn't stand a chance against Russian-equipped armed forces of Serbia. Both of the countries in reality needed an ally before they go to war, and in RotR ECA doesn't want anything to do with East Europe.
As the official story already placed Serbia as the "leading force", that means that they could rise faster than any other nation. Why would Russia support Romania to be the main force leading to the Union if they have to help them rebuild the economy all over again? Sure, they maybe have a lot of resources, but so does Serbia. Remember that just on Kosovo ( which is on the official map showed to be under control of Serbia ) it's estimated there are the third biggest reserves of coal and other mineral rsources, such as zinc, silver, gold etc. Even more if you count the rest of Serbia and territories that it will take.
In a pre-war situation, the world class power would pick an allied country which can be developed the fastest, and in RotR that's Serbia.

Western powers ( ECA and USA ) will try to interfear in the process, divide the countries and people, but the Union is not second Yougoslavia. The countries would be united because of the will of their own people, not because some dictator ( eg. Tito ) deiced to keep it together.

Serbia wouldn't be considered as a leader of the Union, it would be a country which is a founder, alongside other member countries. The fact that it's the strongest in the region would just make it lead the Unification, like Piedmont lead the unification of Italy. After the Union is formed, there is no need for a leader of that kind, the Union makes choices which are in the interest of the entire Union, not just certan countries.


Russia would be the main supplier of Balkan Union, which is making it the only country which is able to stop it. Direct confrontation with the Union would be avoided by the other powers, as they don't want to provoke a war with Russia before it's time. As a matter of fact, nations which would be members of the Balkan Union never fought against Russia, even when they were on opposite sides. You can't get any closer than that when it comes to politics and interests.
Russia could stop Balkan Union, but they wouldn't because it suits their interests. To see just how, you'll have to wait unitl i post a full story. Balkan Union wouldn't fight against Russia because that would mean they are fighting their only ally on a global scale.