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More Suggestions, General!, Time to wear some consideration underwear!
Darky
post 25 Jan 2014, 1:21
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Don't look at the jokes directly, it will hurt your eyes!

This time I have some for the USA:

Tomahawk Overwatch Mode

Description: An advanced on-board computer allows Tomahawk missiles to be fired over a selected area to linger until an enemy unit comes in the area, triggering the Tomahawk's descent upon the target.

Scout Drone and Hellfire Drone Stealth Upgrade

Description: The Scout Drone and the Hellfire Drone are stealthed when not firing.

Paladin Tank Minigun

Description: After purchased as an upgrade, Paladin Tanks are equipped with a remote controlled minigun that fires as fast as Chinese Gattling weapons but with less damage and inability to engage air targets.

Raptor Autocannon

Description: After purchased as an upgrade, Raptors are equipped with Autocannons on top of their regular loadout, cutting through helicopters and most fixed wing aircraft much more easily. Cannot attack ground targets with the autocannon.

Missile Defender Top-Down Fire

Description: After purchased as an upgrade, Missile Defenders can toggle between direct fire and top-down fire modes. When in the latter, time to target is increased and the laser lock ability is disabled, in return dealing slightly higher damage as a result of hitting the weaker top armor and having terrain ignored when acquiring targets.

Laser Guided Bomb Upgrade

Description: Replaces the Stealth Fighter's missiles with a couple of heavily damaging Laser Guided Bombs that track their target.

Battleship Modernization

Description: After purchased as an upgrade, in addition to their existing loadout, equips Battleships with long range anti-ship Tomahawk missiles and CIWS systems that can shoot missiles, aircraft and cannon shells down.

Destroyer Railguns

Description: Upgrades Destroyers with naval railguns, increasing their range and damage, also making the shells fly much faster.

Ranger Grenade Launchers

Description: Rangers begin with Grenade Launchers on their rifles, that can be fired manually.

Drone Operator

Description: A new infantry unit, the Drone Operator is equipped with no weapon of her own, but with a control console to command a single drone, capable of giving it the following tasks:
Scout: The drone scouts the target area, while remaining stealthed.
Attack: The drone fires its missiles at the target and returns to the drone operator.
Guard: The drone flies over the target area and attacks any hostiles with its missiles.

Ranger Designated Marksman Upgrade

Description: At a higher tech level, individual Rangers can be upgraded with the Designated Marksman upgrade, taking away their Capture Building ability and their grenade launchers while giving them a semi-automatic long range rifle that deals considerably more damage. The upgraded Ranger still has much shorter range and much less damage than the Pathfinder, but can fire considerably quicker.

Microwave Tank Turret Upgrade

Description: An expensive and high-tier upgrade, this upgrade retrofits Microwave Tanks with experimental turrets that allow them to attack targets without having to face them and to attack air targets, igniting their fuel and destroying them.

Fire Base Guided Munitions

Description: Munitions fired by the Fire Base, after this upgrade, track their target and deal a lot more damage to vehicles.

Precision Training

Description: After receiving this upgrade, US infantrymen aim much better at vulnerable spots on hostile vehicles such as view ports and tracks, disabling them with sustained fire. (basically, little bit of EMP with every hit, or every burst for the ranger, including abilities like the laser lock and the grenade launcher)

Ambulance Deployment Ability

Description: Ambulances can deploy into small firebases, healing infantry in a wide area around them while being equipped with a heavy machine gun with its user when deployed. Not an upgrade.

Spooky Assault Gunship

Description: Equipped with some on-board unguided HE Rocket launchers and howitzers, the Spooky Assault Gunship can paradrop 15 infantry units over the target area and provide them with fire support before returning to resupply. Heavily armored fixed-wing aircraft. Infantry enter while the gunship is still at the airfield.

Tomahawk Cruise Mode

Description: Any kind of Tomahawk missile can be fired at twice the normal range; in return of having half the speed while still keeping the ability to track the target. This is not a toggle-able mode, targets within range of the High Speed mode will be fired at with High Speed Tomahawks, while targets outside that range will be fired at with Cruise Mode Tomahawks. Also applies to the Tomahawk Overwatch mode.

Particle Burst Cannon

Description: These small but expensive facilities can be deployed in numbers, firing a short burst of Particle beams at the target location, similar to the Particle Cannon but much weaker. Ammunition must be purchased for each strike, and the number of available strikes is displayed at the sidebar. The Particle Burst Cannon is a compact high-tier structure, designed to be used against heavy ships and unit formations. Not strong against buildings. Has a larger area of effect and damage per second than the Particle Cannon, but the shot is brief. Reveals itself on the radar. Requires an active Particle Cannon to be built. (does not require Network Command upgrade)

Particle Cannon Tweak

Description: The Particle Cannon's damage per second is halved while its duration is doubled. The beam is also made faster, making it more effective as a tactical unit killer and less effective as a base destroyer because of reduced damage per second.

Patriot Interceptor Turret

Description: Used as ballistic missile defense, the Patriot Interceptor Turret uses purchased ammunition to destroy incoming cruise and ballistic missiles in one hit. Can also attack General's Promotions units, but does not guarantee a kill in a single hit. Can carry up to 20 missiles. Missiles are purchased in pairs. Has a long range. Can also intercept slow artillery shells.

Ranger Machine Gunner Upgrade

Description: This field upgrade turns the upgraded Ranger into a machine gunner, taking away his grenade launcher and Capture Building ability in return for dealing larger amounts of damage with a higher rate of fire and slightly longer range. Halves the fire rate of infantry under his attack.

Paladin Enhanced Laser Upgrade

Description: The point defense laser on the Paladin is upgraded to be capable of shooting shells down, and has a longer range.

Cruiser

Description: The middle between the Destroyer and the Battleship, Cruisers are equipped with anti-air missiles and machine guns while they deal with surface threats using anti-ship missiles and close-range high fire rate cannons. Cruisers can also deploy countermeasures manually to counter missiles and can perform self repairs, though they're disabled until they're fully repaired. Cruisers also have Tomahawk missiles to attack land targets, but they must be purchased individually. These special Tomahawk missiles carry much larger warheads and can travel longer distances, but they cannot be put in High Speed mode and they can still be shot down. (So not a Tomahawk in any way but the looks)

Cruiser Particle Burst Cannon Upgrade

Description: The anti-ground Tomahawk missiles are replaced with the Particle Burst Cannon, and the Cruiser can fire it anywhere on the map. Researched at the Particle Cannon with Network Command at a high price.

Sea Patriot

Description: Sea Patriots are modular Patriot Missile Launchers on pontoons that can be deployed by Fixers at a price. They can be individually upgraded with torpedo launchers in addition to the missiles.


[b]Pathfinder Focus Shot


Description: The Pathfinder fully concentrates and steadies his rifle, performing a shot at twice his normal range. Has a cooldown.

Pathfinder Target Marking

Description: The Pathfinder marks a location when in range, and calls down an off-map strike of three Tomahawk missiles. Has a cooldown. (He's a level 3 GP unit for crying out loud!)

Particle Cannon Network Interception

Description: The expensive and time consuming Particle Cannon Network Interception must be researched at the Particle Cannon after its Network Command upgrade. Once sufficient time and resources are devoted to it, the general is given the ability to shoot down any selected aircraft, including support power aircraft in one hit. This ability has a recharge time.

Particle Cannon Network Command

Description: An expensive and time consuming upgrade, this upgrade turns the Particle Cannon it is researched on into one of the command hubs for the entire US Particle Cannon Satellite Network. This unlocks a variety of upgrades, increases the cannon's durability, makes it immune to capture, slightly changes its appearance and reduces the cooldown on the upgraded Particle Cannon to three minutes. Only one active Particle Cannon at a time can be upgraded with Network Command.

Burton's Designator

Description: Colonel Burton can designate targets for off-map Particle Burst Cannon strikes. Researched at the Particle Cannon with the Network Command upgrade.

Missile Shield

Description: A sophisticated piece of technology, once researched at the Particle Cannon upgraded with Network Command with a lot of resources and time, gives the player the ability to designate an area, at which every single hostile missile and shell (including tank shells) will be shot down by brief low energy Particle Beams for about 30 seconds. Has a cooldown.

Battleship Shell Guidance

Description: Once upgraded, the shells fired by the Battleship gain the guidance ability, tracking the vehicles and ships they're fired at.

This post has been edited by DarkyPwnz: 25 Jan 2014, 1:23
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Darky
post 4 Feb 2014, 22:20
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I have some more suggestions for the USA:

Colonel Burton ATGM Launcher

Description: Colonel Burton can fire his deadly anti-tank missile at targets at fairly long range, but each shot has a cost and a cooldown.

Advanced Tank Electronics Upgrade

Description: Once researched, Crusaders and Paladins get EMP immunity and stealth detection. They also form a circular area around themselves which can be fired at by friendly Tomahawks from anywhere on the map. These Tomahawks are fired at the Cruise Missile Mode.

Crusader Kinetic Energy Projectiles Upgrade

Description: A field upgrade available to every Crusader, this upgrade replaces the turret with a KE projectile launcher. Crusaders with this upgrade have slightly longer range and a lot more damage, more than Paladin tanks, but their fire rate suffers significantly. Can switch between three fire modes, being 1 shell every x seconds, 2 shells every 2x seconds and 3 shells per 3x seconds.

Comanche Change:

Description: The Comanche's Rocket Pods are removed but it can fire 8 missiles at once instead. The machine gun also kills infantry more quickly and the price is increased.

Guardian Tank:

Description: A high technology tank between the Crusader and the Paladin in overall strength and armor, the Guardian Tank is equipped with a miniaturized naval Advanced Gun System, firing shells with roughly the same power as the Crusader but at a much higher fire rate. It is also equipped with a modular turret, which gains the weaponry of the one Infantry unit it can be garrisoned with. While it is more expensive than the Paladin, unlocked at a higher tier and less armored than the Paladin, the Guardian is easily the most versatile tank USA has to offer.

Focused Microwave Beam

Description: Once upgraded, Microwave Tanks can activate their ability to instantly kill the crew of a vehicle at close range.

Raptor Stealth:

Description: The Raptor is stealthed.

Stealth Fighter Change:

Description: The Stealth Fighter is changed to be a FB-22, and is equipped with 12 anti-ground missiles instead. These missiles are not effective against buildings but they target vehicles individually in groups of 4, meaning up to three vehicles at once can be targeted. These missiles cannot be used against infantry or aircraft. Stealth Fighter is more expensive and available at a higher tier.

Raptor Missile Spread Upgrade:

Description: After the upgrade, when a non-fixed wing aircraft is chosen as the target for the Raptor, the four missiles are fired at as many targets as possible (up to 4) with much better damage.
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Rohan
post 5 Feb 2014, 10:41
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Guardian Tank:

Description: A high technology tank between the Crusader and the Paladin in overall strength and armor, the Guardian Tank is equipped with a miniaturized naval Advanced Gun System, firing shells with roughly the same power as the Crusader but at a much higher fire rate. It is also equipped with a modular turret, which gains the weaponry of the one Infantry unit it can be garrisoned with. While it is more expensive than the Paladin, unlocked at a higher tier and less armored than the Paladin, the Guardian is easily the most versatile tank USA has to offer.

I really like this idea. smile.gif


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n5p29
post 5 Feb 2014, 18:06
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Time for judgement to your suggestions.

QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 25 Jan 2014, 7:21) *
Tomahawk Overwatch Mode

Description: An advanced on-board computer allows Tomahawk missiles to be fired over a selected area to linger until an enemy unit comes in the area, triggering the Tomahawk's descent upon the target.

I shall call this... Trollmahawk Missile!! so the launcher can sit in safe location while keep providing the missiles to the area? the that's just unfair


Scout Drone and Hellfire Drone Stealth Upgrade

Description: The Scout Drone and the Hellfire Drone are stealthed when not firing.

No


Paladin Tank Minigun

Description: After purchased as an upgrade, Paladin Tanks are equipped with a remote controlled minigun that fires as fast as Chinese Gattling weapons but with less damage and inability to engage air targets.

did you know Paladin PDL also can target infantry?


Raptor Autocannon

Description: After purchased as an upgrade, Raptors are equipped with Autocannons on top of their regular loadout, cutting through helicopters and most fixed wing aircraft much more easily. Cannot attack ground targets with the autocannon.

There will be a dogfight mechanic implemented while we get there. about how it will work, just wait for it


Missile Defender Top-Down Fire

Description: After purchased as an upgrade, Missile Defenders can toggle between direct fire and top-down fire modes. When in the latter, time to target is increased and the laser lock ability is disabled, in return dealing slightly higher damage as a result of hitting the weaker top armor and having terrain ignored when acquiring targets.

the new laser lock ability already enough


Laser Guided Bomb Upgrade

Description: Replaces the Stealth Fighter's missiles with a couple of heavily damaging Laser Guided Bombs that track their target.

But Nighthawk missiles already track the target...


Battleship Modernization

Description: After purchased as an upgrade, in addition to their existing loadout, equips Battleships with long range anti-ship Tomahawk missiles and CIWS systems that can shoot missiles, aircraft and cannon shells down.

There are the other ships existed for a reason...


Destroyer Railguns

Description: Upgrades Destroyers with naval railguns, increasing their range and damage, also making the shells fly much faster.

Something similar already planned


Ranger Grenade Launchers

Description: Rangers begin with Grenade Launchers on their rifles, that can be fired manually.

Tacticool indeed. what's wrong with the already useful flashbangs?


Drone Operator

Description: A new infantry unit, the Drone Operator is equipped with no weapon of her own, but with a control console to command a single drone, capable of giving it the following tasks:
Scout: The drone scouts the target area, while remaining stealthed.
Attack: The drone fires its missiles at the target and returns to the drone operator.
Guard: The drone flies over the target area and attacks any hostiles with its missiles.

ROTR?


Ranger Designated Marksman Upgrade

Description: At a higher tech level, individual Rangers can be upgraded with the Designated Marksman upgrade, taking away their Capture Building ability and their grenade launchers while giving them a semi-automatic long range rifle that deals considerably more damage. The upgraded Ranger still has much shorter range and much less damage than the Pathfinder, but can fire considerably quicker.

TACTICOOL again?


Microwave Tank Turret Upgrade

Description: An expensive and high-tier upgrade, this upgrade retrofits Microwave Tanks with experimental turrets that allow them to attack targets without having to face them and to attack air targets, igniting their fuel and destroying them.

Avengers are not enough? D:


Fire Base Guided Munitions

Description: Munitions fired by the Fire Base, after this upgrade, track their target and deal a lot more damage to vehicles.

Firebase will work differently in this mod


Precision Training

Description: After receiving this upgrade, US infantrymen aim much better at vulnerable spots on hostile vehicles such as view ports and tracks, disabling them with sustained fire. (basically, little bit of EMP with every hit, or every burst for the ranger, including abilities like the laser lock and the grenade launcher)

>> TACTICOOL AGAIN???


Ambulance Deployment Ability

Description: Ambulances can deploy into small firebases, healing infantry in a wide area around them while being equipped with a heavy machine gun with its user when deployed. Not an upgrade.

Ambulance will have another use beside healing units, but not like this


Spooky Assault Gunship

Description: Equipped with some on-board unguided HE Rocket launchers and howitzers, the Spooky Assault Gunship can paradrop 15 infantry units over the target area and provide them with fire support before returning to resupply. Heavily armored fixed-wing aircraft. Infantry enter while the gunship is still at the airfield.

not possible using ZH SAGE


Tomahawk Cruise Mode

Description: Any kind of Tomahawk missile can be fired at twice the normal range; in return of having half the speed while still keeping the ability to track the target. This is not a toggle-able mode, targets within range of the High Speed mode will be fired at with High Speed Tomahawks, while targets outside that range will be fired at with Cruise Mode Tomahawks. Also applies to the Tomahawk Overwatch mode.

something similar already planned for Tomahawks


Particle Burst Cannon

Description: These small but expensive facilities can be deployed in numbers, firing a short burst of Particle beams at the target location, similar to the Particle Cannon but much weaker. Ammunition must be purchased for each strike, and the number of available strikes is displayed at the sidebar. The Particle Burst Cannon is a compact high-tier structure, designed to be used against heavy ships and unit formations. Not strong against buildings. Has a larger area of effect and damage per second than the Particle Cannon, but the shot is brief. Reveals itself on the radar. Requires an active Particle Cannon to be built. (does not require Network Command upgrade)

not possible


Particle Cannon Tweak

Description: The Particle Cannon's damage per second is halved while its duration is doubled. The beam is also made faster, making it more effective as a tactical unit killer and less effective as a base destroyer because of reduced damage per second.

not possible


Patriot Interceptor Turret

Description: Used as ballistic missile defense, the Patriot Interceptor Turret uses purchased ammunition to destroy incoming cruise and ballistic missiles in one hit. Can also attack General's Promotions units, but does not guarantee a kill in a single hit. Can carry up to 20 missiles. Missiles are purchased in pairs. Has a long range. Can also intercept slow artillery shells.

Heavy AA units are already planned


Ranger Machine Gunner Upgrade

Description: This field upgrade turns the upgraded Ranger into a machine gunner, taking away his grenade launcher and Capture Building ability in return for dealing larger amounts of damage with a higher rate of fire and slightly longer range. Halves the fire rate of infantry under his attack.

TACTICOOOOOOLLLLL...!!! AAAAaaaaAAAaAaaAAa!!!!1!


Paladin Enhanced Laser Upgrade

Description: The point defense laser on the Paladin is upgraded to be capable of shooting shells down, and has a longer range.

ain't it what PDL usually do?


Cruiser

Description: The middle between the Destroyer and the Battleship, Cruisers are equipped with anti-air missiles and machine guns while they deal with surface threats using anti-ship missiles and close-range high fire rate cannons. Cruisers can also deploy countermeasures manually to counter missiles and can perform self repairs, though they're disabled until they're fully repaired. Cruisers also have Tomahawk missiles to attack land targets, but they must be purchased individually. These special Tomahawk missiles carry much larger warheads and can travel longer distances, but they cannot be put in High Speed mode and they can still be shot down. (So not a Tomahawk in any way but the looks)

Cruiser Particle Burst Cannon Upgrade

Description: The anti-ground Tomahawk missiles are replaced with the Particle Burst Cannon, and the Cruiser can fire it anywhere on the map. Researched at the Particle Cannon with Network Command at a high price.

if this unit actually exist, I will choose to build this rather than the other ships as it could do what most other ships can do


Sea Patriot

Description: Sea Patriots are modular Patriot Missile Launchers on pontoons that can be deployed by Fixers at a price. They can be individually upgraded with torpedo launchers in addition to the missiles.

I can't tell about fixer abilities yet


Pathfinder Focus Shot

Description: The Pathfinder fully concentrates and steadies his rifle, performing a shot at twice his normal range. Has a cooldown.

something similar already planned for Pathfinder


Pathfinder Target Marking

Description: The Pathfinder marks a location when in range, and calls down an off-map strike of three Tomahawk missiles. Has a cooldown. (He's a level 3 GP unit for crying out loud!)

you'll be able to build Pathfinders freely, no points needed. same thing applies to the other unlockable units.


Particle Cannon Network Interception

Description: The expensive and time consuming Particle Cannon Network Interception must be researched at the Particle Cannon after its Network Command upgrade. Once sufficient time and resources are devoted to it, the general is given the ability to shoot down any selected aircraft, including support power aircraft in one hit. This ability has a recharge time.

Particle Cannon Network Command

Description: An expensive and time consuming upgrade, this upgrade turns the Particle Cannon it is researched on into one of the command hubs for the entire US Particle Cannon Satellite Network. This unlocks a variety of upgrades, increases the cannon's durability, makes it immune to capture, slightly changes its appearance and reduces the cooldown on the upgraded Particle Cannon to three minutes. Only one active Particle Cannon at a time can be upgraded with Network Command.

impossibru! the scientists lied! they cannot go against The Rule of SAGE!


Burton's Designator

Description: Colonel Burton can designate targets for off-map Particle Burst Cannon strikes. Researched at the Particle Cannon with the Network Command upgrade.

as if a skilled player sneaking Burton into your base is not devastating enough :|


Missile Shield

Description: A sophisticated piece of technology, once researched at the Particle Cannon upgraded with Network Command with a lot of resources and time, gives the player the ability to designate an area, at which every single hostile missile and shell (including tank shells) will be shot down by brief low energy Particle Beams for about 30 seconds. Has a cooldown.

"There is ten million-million-million-million-million-million particle cannon suggestions that we already see~
You took the silly ones and put them into one thread." t;line-height:100%">(internet for anyone who know the reference)



Battleship Shell Guidance

Description: Once upgraded, the shells fired by the Battleship gain the guidance ability, tracking the vehicles and ships they're fired at.

something similar already planned for Battleship

QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 5 Feb 2014, 4:20) *
Colonel Burton ATGM Launcher

Description: Colonel Burton can fire his deadly anti-tank missile at targets at fairly long range, but each shot has a cost and a cooldown.

why dont just use the Tomahawks?


Advanced Tank Electronics Upgrade

Description: Once researched, Crusaders and Paladins get EMP immunity and stealth detection. They also form a circular area around themselves which can be fired at by friendly Tomahawks from anywhere on the map. These Tomahawks are fired at the Cruise Missile Mode.

EMP-resistant units is a big no, because they all can be disabled for a reason.


Crusader Kinetic Energy Projectiles Upgrade

Description: A field upgrade available to every Crusader, this upgrade replaces the turret with a KE projectile launcher. Crusaders with this upgrade have slightly longer range and a lot more damage, more than Paladin tanks, but their fire rate suffers significantly. Can switch between three fire modes, being 1 shell every x seconds, 2 shells every 2x seconds and 3 shells per 3x seconds.

If you need a unit with longer range than tanks, USE. THOSE. GODDAMNED. ARTILLERY.


Comanche Change:

Description: The Comanche's Rocket Pods are removed but it can fire 8 missiles at once instead. The machine gun also kills infantry more quickly and the price is increased.

We got a better helicopter planned to do that job


Guardian Tank:

Description: A high technology tank between the Crusader and the Paladin in overall strength and armor, the Guardian Tank is equipped with a miniaturized naval Advanced Gun System, firing shells with roughly the same power as the Crusader but at a much higher fire rate. It is also equipped with a modular turret, which gains the weaponry of the one Infantry unit it can be garrisoned with. While it is more expensive than the Paladin, unlocked at a higher tier and less armored than the Paladin, the Guardian is easily the most versatile tank USA has to offer.

ever heard Humvee? it is harder, faster, better, and stronger than this tank tongue.gif


Focused Microwave Beam

Description: Once upgraded, Microwave Tanks can activate their ability to instantly kill the crew of a vehicle at close range.

several changes already planned for Microwave Tank, but not like this


Raptor Stealth:

Description: The Raptor is stealthed.

rejected because of real-life correctness


Stealth Fighter Change:

Description: The Stealth Fighter is changed to be a FB-22, and is equipped with 12 anti-ground missiles instead. These missiles are not effective against buildings but they target vehicles individually in groups of 4, meaning up to three vehicles at once can be targeted. These missiles cannot be used against infantry or aircraft. Stealth Fighter is more expensive and available at a higher tier.

impossible in SAGE


Raptor Missile Spread Upgrade:

Description: After the upgrade, when a non-fixed wing aircraft is chosen as the target for the Raptor, the four missiles are fired at as many targets as possible (up to 4) with much better damage.

same as above

Thread sins tally: 35

Verdict:
War, war never change.


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Darky
post 5 Feb 2014, 18:33
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I remember someone posting a video of a Patriot attacking three targets at once. It was some mod whose name I don't remember.

Also, I spy an ERBoH reference, along with references to random Youtube videos here and there.

What do you mean tacticool? They're there to add to the gameplay, same for the Raptor, it's not for real life correctness but for more effective air-to-air.

The Cruiser and the Battleship are indeed meant to be multipurpose but not without leaving room for the other ships, it depends on how you balance them.

The Guardian depends on how you balance it, so that's some strange reasoning.

I know the PDL can do that, but doesn't have the fire rate or the range the minigun would have.

How is the Particle Burst Cannon impossible? And how is the Particle Cannon tweak suggested not even possible? Doesn't Topol-M from ROTR work similarly except it is a unit and not a building?

The Patriot Interceptor is not meant to be heavy AA.

Drone Operator and ROTR? How are they related? Please, do tell, as I've never seen such a unit in RotR.

All in all your attitude is pretty discouraging, I've spent time for this, at least you could have taken your time to give me good reasons instead of spamming "tacticool" all over the place, whatever that is supposed to mean.

Also, a skilled player with his Burton in your base is not devastating at all, Burton is far too easy to kill, it's really only effective against people who don't protect their base at all.
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V.Metalic
post 5 Feb 2014, 20:42
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Tacticool is that it sounds and looks nice, but isnt that tactical. Like the Ranger. A multi-purpose or modular unit. You want to quickly kill infantry? Choose a machine gun. You want to shoot infantry from distance? Choose a sniper rifle. Where is the diversity? You want a stronger AT? You will ahve a grenade launcher. What reason will the other infantry untis than have? Pathfinder may be stealthed and with higher range, so he should be used for covering of some passages, but in combat your Ranger sniper will work much better, and maybe even cheaper than Pathfinder. All the upgrades of Ranger will overshadow other units in their roles.

The Guardian Tank. It sounds interesting, but my question would be, why should I buy it? As n5 stated, Humvee can serve as versatile combat vehicle, and when Paladins will be included, it will make the combo more strogner than a lone Guardians (like a group of Guardians only).

Vanguard Operator, to help your memory.

In most cases your suggestions are the same. Buff up all units to the level that they can work on their own. An invisible fighter that can easily shoot down any incoming aerial attack with the enemy having small chance of countering this. A mighty battleships that are nearly untouchable, only by close-range combatants like submarines or small gunboats, modular infantry that would be also able to hold off a whole attack of tanks by EMP effect.

I am sure that you put a lot of thoughts into these suggestions, and all the others. Its just that you are in most cases suggesting to increase the roles of units which are already filled than filling the gaps. Thought I have to admit that n5 has been working on to make that, and also to make some overhauls of units, so coming up with some suggestions is difficult.

And the limitations of the SAGE, I know this too, like my suggestion for a warship for GLA that would have its weaponry hidden in the hull and than fire at broadside, like the pirate/corsair ships during WW2. Unfortunately the engine limitations prevented it.


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It is so true that its funny and sad at the same time.
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Darky
post 5 Feb 2014, 21:30
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QUOTE (V.Metalic @ 5 Feb 2014, 21:42) *
Tacticool is that it sounds and looks nice, but isnt that tactical. Like the Ranger. A multi-purpose or modular unit. You want to quickly kill infantry? Choose a machine gun. You want to shoot infantry from distance? Choose a sniper rifle. Where is the diversity? You want a stronger AT? You will ahve a grenade launcher. What reason will the other infantry untis than have? Pathfinder may be stealthed and with higher range, so he should be used for covering of some passages, but in combat your Ranger sniper will work much better, and maybe even cheaper than Pathfinder. All the upgrades of Ranger will overshadow other units in their roles.

The Guardian Tank. It sounds interesting, but my question would be, why should I buy it? As n5 stated, Humvee can serve as versatile combat vehicle, and when Paladins will be included, it will make the combo more strogner than a lone Guardians (like a group of Guardians only).

Vanguard Operator, to help your memory.

In most cases your suggestions are the same. Buff up all units to the level that they can work on their own. An invisible fighter that can easily shoot down any incoming aerial attack with the enemy having small chance of countering this. A mighty battleships that are nearly untouchable, only by close-range combatants like submarines or small gunboats, modular infantry that would be also able to hold off a whole attack of tanks by EMP effect.

I am sure that you put a lot of thoughts into these suggestions, and all the others. Its just that you are in most cases suggesting to increase the roles of units which are already filled than filling the gaps. Thought I have to admit that n5 has been working on to make that, and also to make some overhauls of units, so coming up with some suggestions is difficult.

And the limitations of the SAGE, I know this too, like my suggestion for a warship for GLA that would have its weaponry hidden in the hull and than fire at broadside, like the pirate/corsair ships during WW2. Unfortunately the engine limitations prevented it.


Thanks for the more respectful response.

Vanguard Operator? Still doesn't ring a bell, but I never really followed RotR updates closely. (I'm a shockwave guy and I started RotR when it was at 1.8, and still wasn't checking updates then.

You would buy the Guardian Tank because it has a unique role. Crusaders would thicken your ranks by how they're cheaper while Paladins would block missiles and eliminate infantry while carrying the strongest armor and cannon (by damage and range) on any American tank. The Guardian would then comfortably be the damage dealer of the group, dealing great damage with its high fire rate once brought closer to the target. It would also be the most versatile, capable of loading up with any infantry available to give themselves a second role.

The Guardian was never meant to be sent alone. Also, I don't understand the Humvee comparison, it's not garrisoning 1 infantry unit with a fire port, it gets a small turret with a unique weapon for each infantry unit. It's not meant to be similar to the Humvee, and it's far from fragile by how it is tougher than the Crusader. This comparison is like asking why the Microwave Tank exists when we have Tomahawks to destroy defenses, they might do similar things but they do it much differently.

The Grenade Launcher is not actually meant to be anti-tank, it would slightly damage light vehicles and would mostly be additional firepower against infantry, highlighting how Rangers are supposed to be the elite basic infantry in the game. These field upgrades would be rather costly, as the players need a reason to not upgrade every single Ranger to be a designated marksman or machine gunner, but that's a balancing aspect. Rangers still keep their Grenade Launchers and Capture Building, and the Grenade Launcher can also be used to fire Flashbangs which would now daze infantry for a longer time, giving them more utility. Also, I never intended the designated marksman upgrade Ranger to kill infantry in one-hit, he would simply have a slightly longer range and more damage with a reduced rate of fire while losing the Grenade Launcher and Capture Building. Pathfinder is hands down the best anti-infantry unit in the game as it simply destroys infantry while not even being visible in the process. And really, I think that the upgraded Rangers are distinct enough that their roles don't overlap with each other or Pathfinders.

I think your concerns about this are to be solved by you during balancing, as it's up to just how it performs to determine if a unit is superior to the other in so many ways that that unit is made useless.

Not really, which units can work on their own? Paladin can already use its PDL against infantry, it is simply more effective against them right now. The Raptor can easily have a cost increase to make up for that, and not really any aerial attack, it performs just the same against regular jets, only helicopters and VTOLs get destroyed by the fighter, and this is because they're spammed easily while each fighter takes up a room and takes more micro to use. Not to mention they need to reload.

The mighty battleship is really about your implementation, the idea is that the Battleship would be a long range unit, not very effective at short range but devastating at long range. It could simply not use its cannons on sea targets and use the anti-ship Tomahawks instead, or use them both to force the enemy to get close. And the AA machine guns would simply be weak point defense and really weak anti-air.

I think you're overestimating the EMP effect, it would take quite a while for infantry to successfully disable a vehicle, it's really just there to add more versatility to USA infantry and making them more viable, while giving a player more reasons to use the Machine Gun upgrade (faster fire rate, quicker disabling) or the designated marksman upgrade (longer range). It's not meant to stop tank attacks, just make sure that a team of 8 Rangers won't be crushed by a Battlemaster before it can be destroyed. Again, versatility, it's still not an effective way to destroy a Battlemaster and without Missile Defenders to actually take advantage of the disabling, it's not going to work.

All of my suggestions were made based on my view of USA and how they should have versatile and powerful units, which in turn are expensive, making unit preservation a top priority for USA players.

The Cruiser is meant to be a very expensive ship, a warship and a strategic weapon in one. The Tomahawks, later upgraded to the Particle Burst Cannon would give it powerful purchased strikes, money sinks basically, while giving it all the tools to defend itself and its nearby fleet. It would still be nowhere near as good as the Batteship in off-shore bombardment or the Destroyer in... destroying ships. It is really just meant to be a versatile support vessel (countermeasures and the AA missiles/guns) with a strategic value, carrying precision strike weapons that you can purchase individually.

P.S: None of this explains why the Particle Burst Cannon is impossible when Topol-M is a thing in RotR.
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V.Metalic
post 6 Feb 2014, 2:28
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The comparison is that if Guardian with Ranger (who would give it an minigun), it would be easily replaced by one or two Humvees full of Rangers, or one full of Pathfinders. It would do the work much better. And Paladin can be considered the main hitter, and I would personally use just Crusaders and Paladins than adding to it third tank which is pretty much something in between.

The versatility is certainly USA thing, but you are stretching it too far. The Cruiser is the example. The countermeasures and AA is already ting of Aegis, which is "cruiser", so adding another thing is plainly redundant. The Battleship is meant to be artillery unit and "heavy hitter" on the seas. The guns will, as n5 hinted, have something that will make them capable to engage ships better than it would seem. And if these machine guns were that weak, why to add them at all?

I am not sure about the Particle Burst Cannon, so i wont comment its possibility or impossibility.


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Darky
post 6 Feb 2014, 2:46
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QUOTE (V.Metalic @ 6 Feb 2014, 3:28) *
The comparison is that if Guardian with Ranger (who would give it an minigun), it would be easily replaced by one or two Humvees full of Rangers, or one full of Pathfinders. It would do the work much better. And Paladin can be considered the main hitter, and I would personally use just Crusaders and Paladins than adding to it third tank which is pretty much something in between.

The versatility is certainly USA thing, but you are stretching it too far. The Cruiser is the example. The countermeasures and AA is already ting of Aegis, which is "cruiser", so adding another thing is plainly redundant. The Battleship is meant to be artillery unit and "heavy hitter" on the seas. The guns will, as n5 hinted, have something that will make them capable to engage ships better than it would seem. And if these machine guns were that weak, why to add them at all?

I am not sure about the Particle Burst Cannon, so i wont comment its possibility or impossibility.


Because it's the mindset! Who's to say that a Guardian with Ranger wouldn't get a Grenade Launcher turret that can alternate between HE and Flashbang rounds? Or a Flag autocannon that captures buildings from a distance! (tongue.gif) Remember, it can be as interesting as you can make it.

Well if you have your minds set on the battleship, that's fine. The Cruiser was explained above, and I'm not quite sure how I can elaborate on that. It can still have the repairs, countermeasures and the not-very-powerful anti-ship missiles. An entirely different ship could have Tomahawk etc.

About the PBC, what do you need to know to be sure about it?
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Zeke
post 6 Feb 2014, 3:58
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QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 6 Feb 2014, 9:46) *
Because it's the mindset! Who's to say that a Guardian with Ranger wouldn't get a Grenade Launcher turret that can alternate between HE and Flashbang rounds? Or a Flag autocannon that captures buildings from a distance!


SAGE does. You have to understand that we are working with a really old and limited engine. This "mindset" that you spek off is not due to lack of an imagination as you seem to be implying, but it's the result of experience gathered after learning the limitations of the engine. I admit that a lot of your ideas would be cool, but they are either uncodeable, or would be too micro intensive for an rta game like ZH which focuses more on large armies than individual tacticool units with a million abilities. I hate to sound mean, but I absolutely hate it when people are like "Y NO-ONE THINK OF THIS REALLY COOL IDEA, ALL DEVS HAVE NO IMAGINATION LOL!" while obviously knowing nothing about the limitations of SAGE or how to mod ZH. I cannot begin to tell you how annoying it is to see suggestions with virtually no considerations for engine limitations. ZH modding has been around for a long time, chances are if you have a cool idea that no-one seems to be doing it's probably it can't be done, Jets can't fire a specific number of missiles per target, aircraft carrier type units are not possible, objects like the overlord's gattling cannon doesn't have a commanset so it can't switch weapons via manual weapon select, you cannot add to or reduce the timer of a superweapon via upgrades, you cannot invent new buttons to do new commands that aren't in the official game, etc. etc.

tl;dr Before you start thinking about how cool your ideas are and how unoriginal the devs are for not thinking of it, try to find out if your suggestion is even remotely possible, Otherwise no-one is going to take you seriously.


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Kalga
post 6 Feb 2014, 4:57
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... and here's a link explaining the limitations of the SAGE engine (for those who are wondering): http://forums.swr-productions.com/lofivers....php/t3959.html

(yes I just did a simple google search, because I'm lazy like that)

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Darky
post 6 Feb 2014, 5:26
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QUOTE (Zeke @ 6 Feb 2014, 4:58) *
SAGE does. You have to understand that we are working with a really old and limited engine. This "mindset" that you spek off is not due to lack of an imagination as you seem to be implying, but it's the result of experience gathered after learning the limitations of the engine. I admit that a lot of your ideas would be cool, but they are either uncodeable, or would be too micro intensive for an rta game like ZH which focuses more on large armies than individual tacticool units with a million abilities. I hate to sound mean, but I absolutely hate it when people are like "Y NO-ONE THINK OF THIS REALLY COOL IDEA, ALL DEVS HAVE NO IMAGINATION LOL!" while obviously knowing nothing about the limitations of SAGE or how to mod ZH. I cannot begin to tell you how annoying it is to see suggestions with virtually no considerations for engine limitations. ZH modding has been around for a long time, chances are if you have a cool idea that no-one seems to be doing it's probably it can't be done, Jets can't fire a specific number of missiles per target, aircraft carrier type units are not possible, objects like the overlord's gattling cannon doesn't have a commanset so it can't switch weapons via manual weapon select, you cannot add to or reduce the timer of a superweapon via upgrades, you cannot invent new buttons to do new commands that aren't in the official game, etc. etc.

tl;dr Before you start thinking about how cool your ideas are and how unoriginal the devs are for not thinking of it, try to find out if your suggestion is even remotely possible, Otherwise no-one is going to take you seriously.


I think there is a misunderstanding as I never implied, at least intentionally, that the developers of this mod or any other weren't creative. The HE/Flashbang turret idea came up now, so it's only after your post that I know that the alternation is impossible, but really, that was just an example. He defaulted to Ranger giving the Guardian a minigun and I responded by saying that how interesting it would be is completely up to them as they don't have to go for the obvious. So I think your complaint is misguided.

Notice how I never questioned timer changes being impossible, the only part I questioned was how it was somehow impossible to make the beam faster with half the dps and twice the duration. (It wasn't denied, it was simply said to be impossible) which I find to be curious as mods clearly can and do edit superweapons.

I also don't understand why Particle Burst Cannon would be impossible when ROTR's Topol-M is working perfectly fine. But if it's because it's a building, again, I understand.

The only reason I suggested multi-targeting was that years ago, I saw a video on a mod's page showcasing a Patriot firing at three helicopters at the same time and everyone was surprised, so I figured it could have been common knowledge since then. I've long forgotten the name of that mod but if you say it can't be done, then I'm not going to question it. I just had a reason for my hope.

All of the suggestions here were those I thought to be possible. I'm trying to post well thought suggestions that I really feel would be better for the gameplay, and the kind of image you're describing is the one I tried to avoid. But I think your lashing out is unjustified and overly dramatic. I'm a reasonable person.

Way Overdue P.S: No, Paladin's PDL doesn't normally have a longer range (lolwut) and it doesn't shoot shells down so the PDL upgrade is meaningful.

This post has been edited by DarkyPwnz: 6 Feb 2014, 5:28
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Zeke
post 6 Feb 2014, 10:00
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QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 6 Feb 2014, 12:26) *
Notice how I never questioned timer changes being impossible, the only part I questioned was how it was somehow impossible to make the beam faster with half the dps and twice the duration. (It wasn't denied, it was simply said to be impossible) which I find to be curious as mods clearly can and do edit superweapons.


I wasn't replying directly to your post I was giving examples of the things people usually ask for that are impossible.

QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 6 Feb 2014, 12:26) *
I also don't understand why Particle Burst Cannon would be impossible when ROTR's Topol-M is working perfectly fine. But if it's because it's a building, again, I understand.


Because the particle cannon is a superweapon, the topol is a normal unit that fires a normal weapon, you can't make a superweapon cost money to reload, and making a normal weapon that would work like a particle cannon would be really hard if not impossible (you won't be able to move it, there would be no visual laser coming from the building, only one from the sky to the target, and it would fire only a single shot because the pay for ammo trick doesn't work for units that fire several shots in one attack).

QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 6 Feb 2014, 12:26) *
The only reason I suggested multi-targeting was that years ago, I saw a video on a mod's page showcasing a Patriot firing at three helicopters at the same time and everyone was surprised, so I figured it could have been common knowledge since then. I've long forgotten the name of that mod but if you say it can't be done, then I'm not going to question it. I just had a reason for my hope.


If I'm thinking of the same mod your thinking, that mod is a realism mod. The code he used won't work in a ZH style mod.

QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 6 Feb 2014, 12:26) *
Way Overdue P.S: No, Paladin's PDL doesn't normally have a longer range (lolwut) and it doesn't shoot shells down so the PDL upgrade is meaningful.


Well as he said before, you shouldn't use VZH as base in suggesting stuff for his mod, because more often than not, his mod won't work like VZH.

QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 6 Feb 2014, 12:26) *
All of the suggestions here were those I thought to be possible. I'm trying to post well thought suggestions that I really feel would be better for the gameplay, and the kind of image you're describing is the one I tried to avoid. But I think your lashing out is unjustified and overly dramatic. I'm a reasonable person.


I don't doubt that you're a reasonable person, I see that you respond well to reason. What does annoy me is that whenever you question someone who tells you "no that's not possible" you do so in a manner where it seems like you're implying "these guys don't know what they're doing...". You have to understand, explaining how sage works, is hard, because sage is retarded. Sometimes doing things that seem simple requires shit tons of coding.

That said I do like a lot of your ideers, even some that are uncodeable (screw you sage).

This post has been edited by Zeke: 6 Feb 2014, 10:02


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Darky
post 6 Feb 2014, 13:18
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QUOTE (Zeke @ 6 Feb 2014, 11:00) *
Because the particle cannon is a superweapon, the topol is a normal unit that fires a normal weapon, you can't make a superweapon cost money to reload, and making a normal weapon that would work like a particle cannon would be really hard if not impossible (you won't be able to move it, there would be no visual laser coming from the building, only one from the sky to the target, and it would fire only a single shot because the pay for ammo trick doesn't work for units that fire several shots in one attack).


I think there is a misunderstanding, as the Particle Burst Cannon is not meant to be a superweapon. I thought the "deployable in numbers" part would give that away, but what I had in mind was a small structure, like a missile silo and a small control post, that fires like Zeus Cannon from Generation X (that's not what I had in mind when I came up with this but I know realize that there's some similarity) that fires a normal looking Particle Beam at the target spot with a small but still larger-than-normal -Particle-Cannon area of effect (a shockwave could work). It's not meant to move at all, only be used as a single shot weapon good against only vehicles and ships.
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Kalga
post 6 Feb 2014, 14:03
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QUOTE (Zeke @ 6 Feb 2014, 4:00) *
If I'm thinking of the same mod your thinking, that mod is a realism mod. The code he used won't work in a ZH style mod.


So what's so different about those realism mods?


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Zeke
post 6 Feb 2014, 14:49
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QUOTE (Kalga @ 6 Feb 2014, 21:03) *
So what's so different about those realism mods?


I won't go technical because I'm not 100% sure of the codes. I only have theories since the mod owner won't share his codes, but assuming this is the video your talking about, note how few vehicles there are on screen, how far away they are from each other, and how long it takes for the system to actually work. Now imagine using this system in a ZH style mod, using ZH range, and a lot more vehicles on the screen, it most probably won't work very well, if at all.

EDIT: @Darky: A mini zeus cannon could work, the question now is if n5 thinks it would fit the mod or not.

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Darky
post 6 Feb 2014, 16:16
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http://www.moddb.com/mods/real-war-red-pho...system#imagebox

This is what I was talking about.
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Zeke
post 6 Feb 2014, 17:45
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QUOTE (DarkyPwnz @ 6 Feb 2014, 23:16) *


It's the same system but with an invisible laser.


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Darky
post 6 Feb 2014, 17:59
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So is there a reason why this wouldn't happen besides gameplay reasons/the guy not sharing his code?
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Anubis
post 6 Feb 2014, 19:44
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Except for the fact that alot of those suggestions create redundancy beyond the normal level of boredom and the fact that most of them stink of - omg feels so realistic that it just has to happen - you really gotta learn to deal with the word 'NO'.

I've said this 1000 times and well here i am again - modding is a personal project people sometimes chose to share (SHARE - aka give their free work to others to enjoy) with a community. The fact that a modder accepts suggestions doesn't mean that he absolutely MUST add those said suggestions.

In short just in case this is to hard to process - make a suggestion - if it gets accepted fine, if it doesn't MOVE ON. The team behind this project already has a well thought out plan for it, and they sure as hell don't have to answer why they will or will not use your or anyone else suggestions in more than a simple phrase. It's that simple.

And a personal suggestion - for god's sake make a smaller wall of text next time you suggest something. Reading a whole novel of suggestions is quite annoying.

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Kalga
post 6 Feb 2014, 21:05
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QUOTE (Anubis @ 6 Feb 2014, 13:44) *
The team behind this project already has a well thought out plan for it, and they sure as hell don't have to answer why they will or will not use your or anyone else suggestions in more than a simple phrase. It's that simple.


The thing is though the rest of us have no clue about anything of this well thought out plan, so it's somewhat understandable for the more enthusiastic fans to voice what they think are great ideas... that being said, most of them have never dealt with balancing in their daily diet, never mind an entire mod.


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V.Metalic
post 6 Feb 2014, 21:59
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I will probably speak with n5 to somehow make the suggestions to be... more aimed on the things which are needed.


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Anubis
post 6 Feb 2014, 22:40
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QUOTE (Kalga @ 6 Feb 2014, 22:05) *
The thing is though the rest of us have no clue about anything of this well thought out plan, so it's somewhat understandable for the more enthusiastic fans to voice what they think are great ideas... that being said, most of them have never dealt with balancing in their daily diet, never mind an entire mod.


Well it's kinda common sense to expect that if someone starts a project he kinda has a plan about it. It's not quantum physics to think that you know ...

That being said, my point was about insisting on a suggestion after the devs have already told their opinions about it.
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n5p29
post 7 Feb 2014, 11:17
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it's amazing how this thread become like this. mellow.gif

first of all, I wrote that way because somewhat affected by my condition that time. and like you said in the first post, don't look at the jokes directly, it would hurt you. serious.gif

for the reason why they were rejected, mostly like some other users said already:

1. You're trying/implying to make a multipurpose unit that simply will overthrow the other units usefulness/presence.

this is one of the reason why multi-purpose units are no-go suggestion. because it ruins the unit diversity.
for example your rangers suggestions would open possibilities of using rangers alone to win the entire game. this is also why Humvee spam is popular in a lot of matches. like, "why I bother to build crusaders or even paladins at all? I'll just use humvees and upgrade them with tow+hellfire. I got a faster and stronger crusader instead. if that's not enough, put some dudes inside. maybe a bit more expensive, but that's worth it!".

2. Some of them are just impossible to code in SAGE engine.

or they might be possible, but requires too much effort for just fancy looking stuffs without any real gameplay benefits. also even if they were implemented for real, there might causing unwanted/annoying bugs which ruins the fun.

3. Those are suggestions not I'm looking for.

some of your suggestions are good actually, but due to changes I've already planned to several units, or just against the general design direction, I don't use them. but they're still useful for future references anyway.


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Darky
post 7 Feb 2014, 14:31
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QUOTE (n5p29 @ 7 Feb 2014, 12:17) *
it's amazing how this thread become like this. mellow.gif

first of all, I wrote that way because somewhat affected by my condition that time. and like you said in the first post, don't look at the jokes directly, it would hurt you. serious.gif

for the reason why they were rejected, mostly like some other users said already:

1. You're trying/implying to make a multipurpose unit that simply will overthrow the other units usefulness/presence.

this is one of the reason why multi-purpose units are no-go suggestion. because it ruins the unit diversity.
for example your rangers suggestions would open possibilities of using rangers alone to win the entire game. this is also why Humvee spam is popular in a lot of matches. like, "why I bother to build crusaders or even paladins at all? I'll just use humvees and upgrade them with tow+hellfire. I got a faster and stronger crusader instead. if that's not enough, put some dudes inside. maybe a bit more expensive, but that's worth it!".

2. Some of them are just impossible to code in SAGE engine.

or they might be possible, but requires too much effort for just fancy looking stuffs without any real gameplay benefits. also even if they were implemented for real, there might causing unwanted/annoying bugs which ruins the fun.

3. Those are suggestions not I'm looking for.

some of your suggestions are good actually, but due to changes I've already planned to several units, or just against the general design direction, I don't use them. but they're still useful for future references anyway.


Wouldn't you agree that you need to be more open with what you're looking for if you want the suggestions section to be more productive?
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