Recycling Technology Update 7 Options

[The_Hunter]

Sure,but also no one ever expected to hear this too.

Yes I am pretty convinced whining would not change anything,but put yourself in a boots of someone
tracking progress of this mode literally hour by hour and then tell me how not to be one after this.

I can imagin because this news was brought about in a rather unintented way.
As i said we will make a proper statement in the future as to why in which it will make sense why we won't

[Serialkillerwhal...]

Just a thought, but what's the "Downside" to using ERA? Hover means less armor, Nuclear engines make your trucks explode, cannister guns are worse against armor, et cetra.

Or is it the cost of upgrading itself the downside?

[Mr.Kim]

That is out of the questions.

[Omnius64]

That is out of the questions.

Are you talking about Serialkillerwhale question?

If yes...Why it is "out of question"?

[Lizvne]

Just a thought, but what's the "Downside" to using ERA? Hover means less armor, Nuclear engines make your trucks explode, cannister guns are worse against armor, et cetra.

Or is it the cost of upgrading itself the downside?

Ignore what I said.
I believe issue is with the how hard to achieve this upgrade.

This post has been edited by Lizvne: 27 Dec 2014, 12:36

[Serialkillerwhal...]

Why would it be all that much harder than the rest?

[Lizvne]

Well, I find it not harder. But it is quite weak upgrade when it comes to Tank VS Tank battles.

By the way I have another question. Isn't there is TOO MUCH love for GLA with 11 recycler variants? And all these technical/scorpion/marauder upgrades?

To be honest I find this scrap mechanics to be ridiculous. Not from realism/whatever point of view but simply from gameplay point.
1. Bunch of GLA tanks raid my base. My GLA base defence destroys one tank... and the next tank picks up the crate. Cool.
2. But if I kill my own technical it leaves no crate so I cannot salvage my own technical for Marauder Upgrades.
3. Same thing for any non-GLA troop destroying a vehicle.

GLA have magical ammunitions that turns opponents magically to crates. But only opponents. and this magic crate lives only 30 seconds.
Honestly, if I'd ever make mod I'd rather resort to making salvage added automatically with experience, assumption that veteran GLA warriors use salvage somewhere between battles is more fitting for me than need to hunt magical crates like Mario plumber for coins or Sonic the Hedgehog for rings.

[MARS]

We've had this exact nitpick before and the answer is still the same: Granting you salvage from your own units would put you in a position where you are tempted to destroy and cannibalise your own vehicles to upgrade others. This is not desireable, as it would have a toxic effect on gameplay where you would produce cheap units to kill them in order to improve more advanced ones. As such, it is entirely logical and acceptable that you gotta go out and kill the enemy in order to get your salvage, not your own dudes. As for the other thing, the GLA could use another theme/mechanic. Compared to the other factions which have all sorts of fancy weapons or special features, the 1.802 GLA was rather lacking, pitted against the others with just tunnels, toxins and the old salvage mechanic. With the Recycler, the GLA becomes a lot more dynamic and unpredictable since it changes based on the opponents it stands against, thus adding to its themes as an unconventional guerilla faction and diversifying its arsenal without adding several actual, buildable units whose use would be very situational.

[Lizvne]

Granting you salvage from your own units would put you in a position where you are tempted to destroy and cannibalise your own vehicles to upgrade others. This is not desireable, as it would have a toxic effect on gameplay where you would produce cheap units to kill them in order to improve more advanced ones.

Is it that bad? Cheapest GLA unit is technical which is around 500, which is rather expensive. Shockwave's Deathstrike could produce the scrap for 300 for example, after a Lv 3 GP though.

As for 1.802 GLA have the insane economy, and I still think that making tons of units is not the fairest way to make balance.
(not to mention that Russia looks even more raw in 1.802, and I don't hear about three more addon options for sentinel, for example).

[M01]

Is it that bad? Cheapest GLA unit is technical which is around 500, which is rather expensive. Shockwave's Deathstrike could produce the scrap for 300 for example, after a Lv 3 GP though.

As for 1.802 GLA have the insane economy, and I still think that making tons of units is not the fairest way to make balance.
(not to mention that Russia looks even more raw in 1.802, and I don't hear about three more addon options for sentinel, for example).

If you haven't noticed in older comments and posts that they stated all units are going to have a price modifications. Also if you were watching the streams, the amount of money the GLA get from scrap was reduced. However I have no idea about the GLA bounty system (the one upgraded in the black market) so that one is still in question.

Also this Rise of the Reds not Shockwave, so don't compare them for they were created from different reasons and ideas.
Shockwave's add more stuff to the Zero Hour mechanic
Rise of the Reds adds the stuff that was supposed to implemented in Zero hour
(Those two are I think what learned from the creators or what they stated and I remember)

[Shiro]

That's correct, Shockwave is to ZH what it could have been with more time and planning, while ROTR is basicly an unofficial sequel with lots of new content and a bit of content dropped to make room for other stuff. As for the issue with "kill own stuff for your benefit", I present you the Nod Avatar in TW: a cool unit with an interesting function that simply doesn't work out because it's way too impractical: the salvage ability. Basicly you use an Avatar on one of your own Nod Bikes, Stealth Tanks, Flame Tanks and/or Beam Cannons to upgrade it with additional weaponry/tech. Sounds cool, is pointless because all these units are expensive and better used the way they are.

Now if the GLA could salvage their own units, this would be the exact same thing and it's stupid: MAYBE it would make somehow sense if the GLA weaponry wasn't supposed to be, you know, using outdated tech which is why they savage scrap from enemies to begin with but that's simply not the case; also from a gameplay point it's dumb because, again, it's very impractical and ultimately costs too much micro better spend actually killing enemies.

Btw, a better imlementation of the salvage ability in TW happens in the Tiberium Essence mod, which has a Scrin unit that can take in fallen walkers which makes sense because all factions have 1 type of walker and the unit has, AFAIK, a limit of 1 as well.

[Lizvne]

Well, first of all up to three avatars can salvage single vehicle with proper placing and timing =) And I actually used them in global map mode — there is a limit on number of units in one army, but sometimes Avatar kept their upgrades.

Anyway the issue is that, I repeat:
GLA can salvage GLA.. but only of it is opponent.
GLA can salvage own tanks but only if they are killed by opposing GLA.

And on balance:
Salvaging requires you to win, as if your forces are defeated then you get no crates. This way if GLA is underpowered and cannot win salvaging won't help as they get their rear handed to them before they will be able to collect crates.

I mean my objections are:
1. Making 11 units for GLA makes them the faction with most developers love, not to mention all the upgrades. Of which 11 variations I will be denied 8 in a typical VS match, cool.
2. In GLA VS GLA matches this gameplay mechanics turns in to a total mess.

[Nemanja]

I still struggle to understand your way of thinking,
seriously,recycler mechanic is one of most innovative
game mechanics I've seen in one ZH mod in last probably ten years,
and you are complaining in way that it should be converted into most
boring regular upgrade system,or unpractical cannibal system...

1. Making 11 units for GLA makes them the faction with most developers love, not to mention all the upgrades. Of which 11 variations I will be denied 8 in a typical VS match, cool.

What the dick are you talking,they first made whole Russian faction,then they made ECA faction,and now they basically remade Russian faction,
then they added ton of new content to USA and China,lot of facelifts for old units and structures,and also there are totally new Generals coming for
USA and China,unrelated to ones from original Zero Hour.
GLA gets few visually appealing units,people get mad,China gets Overlord,Shenlong,Nuke Cannon and Hans at the same time,no one cares...

[Darkfire Angel]

I mean my objections are:
1. Making 11 units for GLA makes them the faction with most developers love, not to mention all the upgrades. Of which 11 variations I will be denied 8 in a typical VS match, cool.
2. In GLA VS GLA matches this gameplay mechanics turns in to a total mess.

1) Ok let's ignore the entire two new factions, apparently those don't count at all in terms of how much "love" the devs give to a side. And actually I highly doubt that the "Upgrades" take up actual Upgrade slots, but stand to be corrected on that front.

Let's list the number of new units each of the old faction will have come with the next release

Tank Hunter
Pyro Technician
Volunteer Squad
Disruptor Team
Minigun Team
Nukeneer
Hopper Tank
Banshee ECM
Twin Fang
Shenlong
Han Gunship
Hellfire MiG
Propaganda Airship
Breader Reactor
Speaker Tower
4 Support Power Aircraft

20 New units for China

Green Beret
Delta Force
Vanguard Operator
Javelin Team
SEAL
Ambulance
Acolyte Tank
Bradley IFV
WASP Hive
ATV Humvee
Chaparral
Sentry Drone
Guardian Drone
Repair Drone
HK Drone
AT Drone
Mule Drone
Termite Drone
Little Bird
Viper
Blackhawk
Starlifter
Osprey
Drone Assembly Plant
Protector Missile System
Cyclops
9 Support Aircraft

35 New units for the USA


Partisan
Mercenary
Informant
Jarmen Kell
Mobile Command Track
Observation Van
Demo Truck
Ural Truck
Grad
11 Recyclers
Interceptor
Gazelle
GPS Scrambler Station
Chemical Lab
Dushkha Nest
2 Support aircraft

27 New Units for the GLA


Oh yeah the team is totally bias in favor of the GLA and have devoted all their time towards them. I mean look how little improvement the ECA and Russian have gotten since their release.

Your issues aren't even relevant or have any merit but you persist in complaining as if you're offer the team ANY reason to change or present what the actual issues are other than I don't like this, it's not what I like cry cry.

The GLA are never going to be able to suicide units to get salvage crates and the recycler system is one of the biggest systems ever implemented by any mod. So basically

[The_Hunter]

Guy guys please keep it civil.

Everyone is entitled to their oppinion and it someone gets the impression that we are biased to a faction (which we aren't) then show some proper facts why you beleive said person is wrong and don't throw around silly insults and image macros.

[Lizvne]

I still struggle to understand your way of thinking,
seriously,recycler mechanic is one of most innovative
game mechanics I've seen in one ZH mod in last probably ten years,
and you are complaining in way that it should be converted into most
boring regular upgrade system,or unpractical cannibal system...

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but it is like you haven't carefully read what I wrote. I remember I wrote the following line: "Honestly, if I'd ever make mod I'd rather resort to making salvage added automatically with experience, assumption that veteran GLA warriors use salvage somewhere between battles is more fitting for me than need to hunt magical crates like Mario plumber for coins or Sonic the Hedgehog for rings." (sorry for quoting myself).
But I cannot find where do I write something like "Plz allow GLA to cannibalize own units for crates".

As I mentioned before, current recycling mechanics have issues:
0. Magical bullets/missiles/whatever. Okay, let's ignore this point.
1. It works.. strange.. in GLA VS GLA. My magical bullets leave crates for my opponent to salvage! On a positive side SUDDENLY I can salvage my own vehicles as long as they are killed by opponent's magical bullets.
2. Of 11 recycler variants (basic one included) I will be denied 8 in a typical match. Same goes for upgrades.
3. Self-quoting again: "Salvaging requires you to win, as if your forces are defeated then you get no crates. This way if GLA is underpowered and cannot win salvaging won't help as they get their rear handed to them before they will be able to collect crates."


Anyway I take my words about "developers love" back as I was misunderstood due to my poor wording. My fault. Sorry.

Your issues aren't even relevant or have any merit but you persist in complaining as if you're offer the team ANY reason to change or present what the actual issues are other than I don't like this, it's not what I like cry cry.

I tried to make my words clear above. Of course you can say that it is my "I don't like cry-cry bawww" own problem.

[Shiro]

*sigh* Ok once more, GLA can't get salvage crates from their own units because that is bad game design. Sure it's not realistic but than many things in the game aren't; the game is inspired by reality and that's all. Seriously, it encourages destroying your own units to upgrade other units like the Avatar in TW (as was repeatedly written already) and doing such provides a bad case of min-maxing assets. Game play is about fun for most people and being able to artificially improve your stuff with a simple scheme of buyit-killit-collect-repeat is basicly nothing else but "pay to win" even if it's an in-game. It takes no skill to do at all. When you're forced in a GLA mirror to collect salvage crates from your own units destroyed by your enemy you still have to make sure your enemy doesn't get them first which, again, takes skill and is thus more challenging and also more satisfying.

As for the issue of 3 Nod Avatars being able to salvage the same vehicle, that is OBVIOUSLY a bug and thus doesn't count.

As for the issue of the Recycler itself, ok first it doesn't take any new upgrades, it merely uses upgrades that are already in the game and/or stuff that doesn't count against the upgrade limit by virtue of not being upgrades to begin with. Second, the Recycler mechanic is obviously meant to be a case-to-case thing so complaining that you are denied 8 variants in a usual game despite the fact that this is an intended design is silly. If you want more Recycler variants in the same game, take on more enemies at the same time. Recycler variants are generally intended to help you against the very faction you are facing so technically you wouldn't really need different variants like Russian Recyclers vs the USA (though that can be fun too).

Lastly, salvages needed to win. Well let's be honest here, the GLA gets a massive boost in income when they win battles provided you got the Cash Bounties so you can throw more units at your enemy. Doing that you get salvage options as well. The GLA have to be agressive and fast, so not being such will cause you to lose. The salvage crates and bounty are thus basicly an accelerator to your victory but they alone won't help you.

[Lizvne]

>> Ok once more, GLA can't get salvage crates from their own units because that is bad game design.
Could you point me where I am asking for implementing that?

I will answer the rest of your post after reply on aforementioned question.

This post has been edited by Lizvne: 30 Dec 2014, 13:08

[DELETED MEMBER]

As I mentioned before, current recycling mechanics have issues:
0. Magical bullets/missiles/whatever. Okay, let's ignore this point.
1. It works.. strange.. in GLA VS GLA. My magical bullets leave crates for my opponent to salvage! On a positive side SUDDENLY I can salvage my own vehicles as long as they are killed by opponent's magical bullets.
2. Of 11 recycler variants (basic one included) I will be denied 8 in a typical match. Same goes for upgrades.
3. Self-quoting again: "Salvaging requires you to win, as if your forces are defeated then you get no crates. This way if GLA is underpowered and cannot win salvaging won't help as they get their rear handed to them before they will be able to collect crates."

0-Yes, lets ignore it because is stupid
1-videogames...strange...aren't like real life, who could have guessed?
2-I can't empty russian vehicles as ECA while fighting USA, Hunter pls fix
3-this is basically point 1, and you seem unable to understand the concept of risk-reward and micromanagement, let alone the idea that a direct assault maybe a bad idea for a stealth and mobile faction

Could you point me where I am asking for implementing that?

Literally point 1 of your list

[Lizvne]

Okay, point one.

>> 1. It works.. strange.. in GLA VS GLA.
I don't see a request here. Only my opinion.

>> My magical bullets leave crates for my opponent to salvage!
I don't see a request here. Only fact.

>> On a positive side SUDDENLY I can salvage my own vehicles as long as they are killed by opponent's magical bullets.
And I still don't see a request here. Only fact.

This whole point have no request.

This my reply is on verge of being flame and useless. So please, provide me with exact quote next time. If I am asking "why this thing was made this way, and not that way" this means that I am interested in exactly answer on this topic, this means not "OH MY GOD IMPLEMENT IT PLZ". Same way if I am telling that I find something strange. Or whatever I say that is not a request. By the way please tell the telepath who provided you with mind-reading services that solution ideal to "strange" issue is to make crates salvageable only by ones who "made" this crate (Miracle of logic!) — but as I am not proficient with game engine enough to see if it is possible I abstained from proposing this solution.

And one more thing. If I am somehow unhappy with something in game balance I can tweak most of the numbers by editing the file. Because I don't play competitive MP. And I can persuade my friends to use my file in case I decide to play multiplayer. So if I am asking about numbers it means not that I ask to change them, it means that I am interested in reasons behind that.

PS: I'm sorry for my irritated and not very polite tone but it is really annoying to receive answers not on what I said but in what others thought I want to say. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

[katmoda12]

Seriously, Livzine, They already told you.

They are doing GLAvs.GLA that way because otherwise it would be BAD GAME DESIGN.
There are no magical GLA bullets, it's just a game. Designed this way because fun>reality or fun>"it's strange".

It may sound strange but the real big thing is that the recycler mechanic has been implemented!! That supersedes every complain also beacuse it's the closest thing to RA2 stolen tech, something that nobody achieved since westwood.

If you see some famous mod like mental omega they already have mirror match stolen tech, like RussiavsRussia, just because it's fun.
Nobody asks why, because there's no real explication, it's just a fun and rewarding mechanic.
In mental omega you cannot enter your own science center, as in Rotr you cannot salvage your units because it's plain unelegant and stupid.

This post has been edited by katmoda12: 30 Dec 2014, 14:54

[Lizvne]

>> as in Rotr you cannot salvage your units because it's plain unelegant and stupid.
Are you trolling me?

>> They are doing GLAvs.GLA that way because otherwise it would be BAD GAME DESIGN.
And again which one of possibilities of "otherwise" you take in calculations?
For example in GLA vs China/US
1. China cannot salvage crates made by GLA.
2. GLA cannot salvage own vehicles killed by China.
Is it a BAD GAME DESIGN? I believe no. Now replace "China" with "opponent GLA" and explain why it suddenly becomes a bad game design while good game design is "crates are for all, but spawned only if killed by opponent"?


This post has been edited by Lizvne: 30 Dec 2014, 15:07

[katmoda12]

Not at all.

I find that rotr IS elegant. Look at the take away pizza and sofa in ECA telecom relay or think about that in the lore the design name of the Usa Paladin is Abrams, so complainers should not complain anymore.

Or another example could be that in shw the most advanced version of the nuclear cannon (TAO's one) has six foot like in rotr, that's an elegant continuity.

And there are plenty of this example: leaving GLAvsGLA recycler mechanic empty would seem half baked and unfinished, and plain unelegant.


BUT this is just my OPINION....like yours. So, let's leave it that way, just different opinions.

There's no request in your opinion, so we can consider this argument closed. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

This post has been edited by katmoda12: 30 Dec 2014, 15:19

[__CrUsHeR]

I'll try to explain to you why: because most ROTR players expected to the game continue inclined - as well as ZH - for a 'semi-realistic gameplay' where the game mechanics correspond to semi-real facts of war in order to in turn correspond to a 'semi-immersive reality of war'; it would be disappointing if such scrap's mechanics allowed a GLA player to recycle their own units, it would stimulate one 'counter-realistic gameplay' - more than acceptable - and in turn the 'immersiveness of war' would be compromised to the point of ridicule what makes the game lose its credibility; would like I build a wonderful lore to justify a game mechanic or a unit but in practice nothing to do with what I wrote, you would feel frustrated and disappointed - this would be the feeling of most of ROTR player to see that the mechanics of the game is not as expected thinking about the 'semi-realistic logic' implemented until this point.

A 'classic example' of this counter-realistic effect is the possibility of selling your CC in Generals/ZH; thinking about aggressive and spam gameplay of the original game is interesting, but ridiculous to the 'semi-realistic point of view' proposed by the game as a whole.

A game that I do not particularly like by the fact of the war be 'addicted' to this problem is the AoE; the game is relatively well balanced in PvP but the tactics you employ to beat your opponent are not equivalent in my eyes to what is expected of a 'medieval war', therefore I feel frustrated playing a game that can not be true to its ambiance and for me the game logic is seriously compromised as to the point that not convince me more.

There are several other ZH mods that are bad in this aspect - the gameplay is good but the game is 'unconvincing' - not because the animations, the effects of particles or models of the units are ugly, but because they are not 'semi-realistic' compared to the original game, which is not accepted by a large portion of the community.

Then it must explain why there a concern of creating balanced mechanics based on the 'semi-realistic acceptable margin of the game', in order to create something competitive and at the same time convincing, understand?

This post has been edited by __CrUsHeR: 30 Dec 2014, 17:00