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GLA Antivehicle Concerns, Needs to be mentioned, I feel.
Jaimas
post 8 Sep 2009, 13:58
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All right, check it out. I'm a Salvage GLA player. Have been since Shockwave's Launch, likely to stay such (especially when things are fixed further).

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However, there's a problem I've noted with GLA units, and it's a serious concern that needs addressing. It's not even necessarily an intentional problem, but it remains a considerable one, and thus, one that needs further analysis.

The problem, gentle readers, is simple: The GLA relies too heavily on missiles/rockets.

I don't mean this in the "OMG TOO SUCKY/BORING" way, I mean this in the tactical meaning. Way too many GLA units rely on rockets or missiles for their offenses, and because of that, The Avenger, and to a lesser degree, the ECM tank, are a gigantic middle finger pointing at GLA players, completely screening huge columns of units from what would otherwise be an overpowering mass of units that would mess them fools up.

Permit me to cite several examples from my own experiences:

* During one team game, a friend of mine was playing Demo GLA. Despite having an overpowering number of Marauders backed with BRDMs, his opponent, a Laser US player, engaged him with a much smaller group of Laser Tanks, Avengers, and Laser Paladins, all equipped with Combat Drones. It wasn't even a contest; none of the missiles fired by the Marauders were effective, the BRDMs proved useless, and what would have otherwise been a slam dunk of an attack ended in failure.

* During one game I wound up facing down my friend Stuffman with Salvage GLA. Spotting his forces en route to my base, and having a relatively small number of defenses up and few units due to repeated failed attempts to invade his territory, I diverted a squadron of HiPs with rockets I had from their attempted base-bash, set them to barrage fire, and targetted the tanks in the column. Suffice to say, barely any of the rockets actually hit anything courtesy of multiple anti-rocket lasers, and I got pwn3d.

* During a match against a Laser US playing friend, I decided to give Katyushas a try. 2 of them proved wholly unspectacular at destroying even an isolated oil derrick, due to a single Avenger.

* I've lost count of the number of times I've played as not-Salvage GLA and wishing I had Latruns and praying I had ANTYHING approximating the usefulness of Inferno Cannons.

This is as much a slam against the raw ridiculousness of the Avengers' anti-missile defenses - especially the LUS Version - as it is the GLA's over-reliance on rockets and missiles, but the simple fact of the matter is that the GLA's over-reliance on them makes it so that Avengers can render a large cluster of units largely irrelevant, ensures that most GLA anti-air power is woefully underperforming for cost, and almost invariably serves to ensure that a GLA player that fails to secure dominance early-on is damned to have an absolute ass-beating later on, even if they play one of the slower factions (such as Salvage GLA).

Is anything planned to be done about how over-the-top Avengers are, or, failing that, how over-reliant the GLA is on rockets/missiles..?
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Pickysaurus
post 8 Sep 2009, 14:35
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The GLA have always used Missiles. Even back to ZH.
I don't understand how this is an issue with Shockwave.
I do see your point, but perhaps you should try Marco-ing units more?
Have your tanks initially target the ECM/Avenger?


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JJ
post 8 Sep 2009, 14:36
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Honestly, I think it is fine. One Avenger can't even completely negate the rockets from a single Rocket Buggy. ECM Tanks are harder to crack, but then they have to tag around the slow Chinese tanks, and ECMs also can't effectively counter Scuds (and their equivalents). The BDRM (or is it BRDM?) might have some problems with Avengers, but they are really powerful otherwise, that coupled with several changes to it, should make it fine.

The only problem I personally think is with Avengers and Scuds (again, and their equivalents). Kinda unfair to have a big fat missile completely disappear like that, and that's discounting all those other misses, it's not easy to get an accurate hit in the first place.
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Frostyarmy
post 8 Sep 2009, 14:49
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1. learn2 not allow your freind to get that many Awesome troops by harassing him in the beginning , GLAs Strong point is killing the Foe Early game other wise , Detech him kill is stratagie center and have the tanks aim for the avengers most of the time then those Fajl paladins and those laser crusaders can be Flat lined by a Good 8 or 9 Rocket buggies

2. Bottom Line , GLA weakness is the lack of armor and Firepower remember that ...

3. if your playing with rules the only one you should be playing with is NO SW at the minimum Playing with Rules Screws GLA Completely Over in the long run as they are a Rush Based Factor...

This post has been edited by Zhao: 8 Sep 2009, 15:00
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Pickysaurus
post 8 Sep 2009, 15:18
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QUOTE (JJ @ 8 Sep 2009, 11:36) *
The only problem I personally think is with Avengers and Scuds (again, and their equivalents). Kinda unfair to have a big fat missile completely disappear like that, and that's discounting all those other misses, it's not easy to get an accurate hit in the first place.


Aren't SCUD missiles immune to Avengers?
I seem to remember being unable to counter that kinda of missile with Avengers (well Juhziz's TopolM)

I swear they were at least immune in vZH


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JJ
post 8 Sep 2009, 16:30
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Nah, they definitely weren't. I'm very sure in this, having modded it out myself.
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Chyros
post 8 Sep 2009, 19:40
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One of the GLA's inherent weaknesses is - by design - lack of technology. Inversely, one of the USA's strengths is having new technology - US units in Gens/ZH have always specialised in being as uncounterable as possible. Therefore, try not to rely too much on missile units that can be countered easily - Scorpions & eq. have useful rockets but they suck against USA and generally MBT's are not really worth building anyway (a few exceptions exist but still), Stingers can be countered by just about anything, and about big missile artillery; Topol-M's fail inherently because their missiles take ages to reach their targets and can be brought down relatively easily; Scuds can be quite powerful at times but are unnecessarily slow in firing and their missiles can be avoided and destroyed pretty easily. The Frog is more difficult to avoid but still easy to counter by Avengers - nonetheless it can be very powerful sometimes. The Scourge is the only GLA big missile artillery that is not piss-easy to counter by Avengers and can be used just about always. When facing USA, generally it's best to stick to Rocket Buggies, which are one of the best artilleries in the game anyway. They may fire missiles too, but their raw volume of missiles can't be stopped by Avengers, and their maneuvrability and relatively low cost make them always a big danger.


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Pickysaurus
post 8 Sep 2009, 19:48
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I agree.
May times have I been harassed by GLA rocket buggies in a swarm. They are definitely a good bet.


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Jaimas
post 8 Sep 2009, 20:20
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Clarification needs be made. I have no trouble with 1-2 negating a single rocket buggy or disrupting the assault of a given defensive structure. My problem arises wherein 2-4 of them are capable of completely negating multiple HiPs set to barrage, the lion's share of an F/A-18 strike, etc. But honestly? That's not even the biggest offense.

What is is what these do to the lumbering GLA Artillery vehicles which are borderline-impossible to employ well in the first place due to their sluggishness, requirements, costs, and fragility - it's hard enough to make good use of GLA non-Buggy, non-Latrun Artillery vehicles normally, and the ability of a single Avenger to negate 10000+ Credits worth of SCUDs, TOPOLs, FROGs, (as well as the US Heavy Artillery save for AUS's), while those few factions that boast actual, shell-based artillery gets a pass is bogus. This aspect alone contributes heavily to these units being consigned to the dustbin, unused and unloved, and given the game's focus, that's perfectly ridiculous.

Mind, the Avenger has always been a problem unit and one at the center of constant debate. I remember one of the SWR team (may have been Hunter) repeatedly disapproving of the Avenger's anti-missile capability. Whilst there are more important issues out there, this is definitely something that warrants discussion.

This post has been edited by Jaimas: 8 Sep 2009, 20:23
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Chyros
post 8 Sep 2009, 21:31
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QUOTE (Jaimas @ 8 Sep 2009, 18:20) *
What is is what these do to the lumbering GLA Artillery vehicles which are borderline-impossible to employ well in the first place due to their sluggishness, requirements, costs, and fragility - it's hard enough to make good use of GLA non-Buggy, non-Latrun Artillery vehicles normally, and the ability of a single Avenger to negate 10000+ Credits worth of SCUDs, TOPOLs, FROGs, (as well as the US Heavy Artillery save for AUS's), while those few factions that boast actual, shell-based artillery gets a pass is bogus. This aspect alone contributes heavily to these units being consigned to the dustbin, unused and unloved, and given the game's focus, that's perfectly ridiculous.

Mind, the Avenger has always been a problem unit and one at the center of constant debate. I remember one of the SWR team (may have been Hunter) repeatedly disapproving of the Avenger's anti-missile capability. Whilst there are more important issues out there, this is definitely something that warrants discussion.
True, but apparently it's more balanced this way - don't forget artillery in Shw has pretty massive advantage. I tend to agree that especially GLA artillery is heavily (and selectively) disadvantaged though, with the obvious exception of the Latrun and Rocket Buggy. The Scourge can be worth the money though sand the genpoint isn't too big of a loss since GLA has IMO the worst genpoints in the game, but the Rocket Buggy tends to do most things just a lot better, I've found.


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Erik
post 8 Sep 2009, 21:55
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I kinda agree to this, avengers zap the missiles far to easily. Another concern would be the paladin pdl which makes GLA scorpions useless. But GLA is not really designed as a lategame faction, if you cant defeat our enemy before he gets high tech youre almost certainly doomed.


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Stinger
post 9 Sep 2009, 1:00
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The Avenger's PDL is slower than it was in Zero Hour.

GLA was, and still is, the best late game faction with its ability to bunker in. I can't see that it has changed that much in ShockWave...


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-Xv-
post 9 Sep 2009, 1:03
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QUOTE (Jaimas @ 8 Sep 2009, 9:20) *
Clarification needs be made. I have no trouble with 1-2 negating a single rocket buggy or disrupting the assault of a given defensive structure. My problem arises wherein 2-4 of them are capable of completely negating multiple HiPs set to barrage, the lion's share of an F/A-18 strike, etc. But honestly? That's not even the biggest offense.

What is is what these do to the lumbering GLA Artillery vehicles which are borderline-impossible to employ well in the first place due to their sluggishness, requirements, costs, and fragility - it's hard enough to make good use of GLA non-Buggy, non-Latrun Artillery vehicles normally, and the ability of a single Avenger to negate 10000+ Credits worth of SCUDs, TOPOLs, FROGs, (as well as the US Heavy Artillery save for AUS's), while those few factions that boast actual, shell-based artillery gets a pass is bogus. This aspect alone contributes heavily to these units being consigned to the dustbin, unused and unloved, and given the game's focus, that's perfectly ridiculous.

Mind, the Avenger has always been a problem unit and one at the center of constant debate. I remember one of the SWR team (may have been Hunter) repeatedly disapproving of the Avenger's anti-missile capability. Whilst there are more important issues out there, this is definitely something that warrants discussion.



No need to exaggerate. A single avenger can't negate more then 2 SCUDS. I have never had a problem cracking avengers/ecms. You should have better late game economy being GLA. You also have extremely easy to pull off harass techniques to kill SDZs, not to mention clearing a full Internet Center with a single Nerve Bomb (if you're Thrax) For offensive purposes, Buggies in numbers are unbeatable. They cost less then avengers, and you need more then 1 avenger to negate 1 buggy. Win. For defensive purposes, tunnel popping Scuds or its equivalents in 3+ numbers (at least 5 preferably) works every time, especially if you do it in conjunction with rocket buggies. However, If you are a Salvage player such as yourself, You don't have access to buggies, but... you HAVE armor. Deathstrikes Tanks are more then able to stand up to US/Chinese Tanks especially when salvaged. Even his lowly MBT (its name escapes me atm, costs $750) can beat US tanks with ease if salvaged. Katyushas are also very good, in numbers. Pair them up with the Tank Destroyer (its name also escapes me atm, costs a gen point + $2000, wow I need to start playing ShW again to remember these things lol) to soak up the damage and you got a very potent force.

In 1 of the examples you used HiPs to counter an Avenger reinforced attack group? and what were you thinking the outcome would be? HiPs are support units, not attack units. Attack the enemies flank/artillery units while you are engaging his main units, or use them to attack buildings of opportunity when its undefended (specifically SDZs.)

GLA has been fine ever since the launch of ZH (in which avengers/ECMs were introduced), it's not going to change. Besides I sort of failed to see what your suggestion is? or did you even have one? This just seems l more like a rant from a player who can't really counter effectively. If you disagree with me, I'll gladly get on hamachi again, it's been a while since I played but I'm sure I can still hold my own.


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Shiro
post 9 Sep 2009, 1:05
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Scarab=MBT, Basilisk=TD. As -Xv- said, there ARE possibilites.
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Destiny
post 9 Sep 2009, 9:07
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If he's finding a problem countering Avengers that HUMAN players deploy, in _every_ game I play against the AI I lose Avengers, GLA or not.

There are plenty of ways to counter PDLs. Get more rocket buggies/combat buggy/Katys/whatever than they have PDLs, get more tanks then they have, concentrate on the Avengers, use Jarmen Kell, get the Rocket Barrage upgrade for the Flash trooper for cannon fodder/decoy, blah blah blah blah. And yes, the Basilisk is a very good idea, though it's slow.


Edit: If the enemy isn't good at micro/macro and leaves his units there to hold that ground you can use some Gen Power to hit 'em. Maybe like a I-forgot-what-the-Tunnel's-name-is full of tanks or something directly under the Avengers and stuff.

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Shiro
post 9 Sep 2009, 10:12
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Sneak Attack full of Bomb Trucks can be useful.
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C.o.m.m.a.n.d.e....
post 9 Sep 2009, 13:30
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mass cheap tanks and quads and if you think about it GLA = Zerg USA = Terran and China = Protoss (China and USA can be arguable depending on what General) i know its a little off topic but my point is is that GLA is cheap and can mass quickly + the use of sneak attacks and such they can easily overpower other factions altho against the right person can counter ect. blah blah they all have a chance to win
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Stinger
post 9 Sep 2009, 14:21
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Mass for the win, definitely.


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Destiny
post 9 Sep 2009, 14:39
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QUOTE (C.o.m.m.a.n.d.e.r @ 9 Sep 2009, 17:30) *
mass cheap tanks and quads and if you think about it GLA = Zerg USA = Terran and China = Protoss (China and USA can be arguable depending on what General) i know its a little off topic but my point is is that GLA is cheap and can mass quickly + the use of sneak attacks and such they can easily overpower other factions altho against the right person can counter ect. blah blah they all have a chance to win

And here all along I was thinking China was the faction supposed to spam XD.gif But yeah, if you gave enough cash, outspamming him should guarantee victory, however cliche it is 8Ip.png


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Shiro
post 9 Sep 2009, 15:06
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GLA has become a bunker faction anyway. Especially as Salvage, you can just bunker and wait until your superweapons are ready mindfuck.gif
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Jaimas
post 9 Sep 2009, 18:36
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We're going to have to agree to disagree then, because I still don't see why - considering their shots can already be intercepted by many anti-air units - a single PEWPEW laser should be able to miraculously shoot down an OMGWTFLOL-big missile from a GLA heavy artillery piece (which in their current state, are never built). This is sad because there should, at least, be some point to these units.

I've yet to encounter a single point where I've found that I'd prefer a single GLA Heavy Artillery Vehicle - SCUDs, FROGs, TOPOLs, Scourges, or the Katyusha - over their light counterparts (Buggies and Latruns), and the fact that the missiles can be destroyed pre-impact is a big part of this. Again, I feel that, like Gadfly/SA-2 missiles, they should not be targettable by PDLs (I concede that it might be okay in the case of the Katyusha, but then the Katyusha needs buffs in other areas, so that kind of balances). It's ridiculous. These units are currently consigned to the dustbin.
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C.o.m.m.a.n.d.e....
post 9 Sep 2009, 23:20
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QUOTE (Destiny @ 9 Sep 2009, 4:39) *
And here all along I was thinking China was the faction supposed to spam XD.gif But yeah, if you gave enough cash, outspamming him should guarantee victory, however cliche it is 8Ip.png

ya i just remembered that but GLA has cheaper and weaker stuff so its easier to do an early rush with more units. altho China in a late game were they have more money they can mass just as well with way stronger units

QUOTE (Jaimas @ 9 Sep 2009, 8:36) *
We're going to have to agree to disagree then, because I still don't see why - considering their shots can already be intercepted by many anti-air units - a single PEWPEW laser should be able to miraculously shoot down an OMGWTFLOL-big missile from a GLA heavy artillery piece (which in their current state, are never built). This is sad because there should, at least, be some point to these units.

I've yet to encounter a single point where I've found that I'd prefer a single GLA Heavy Artillery Vehicle - SCUDs, FROGs, TOPOLs, Scourges, or the Katyusha - over their light counterparts (Buggies and Latruns), and the fact that the missiles can be destroyed pre-impact is a big part of this. Again, I feel that, like Gadfly/SA-2 missiles, they should not be targettable by PDLs (I concede that it might be okay in the case of the Katyusha, but then the Katyusha needs buffs in other areas, so that kind of balances). It's ridiculous. These units are currently consigned to the dustbin.

stop relying on missles there are tanks, quad cannons, and jarmen kel GLA doesnt ONLY have missles and yes i do see were your going with this but thats y i just stopped playing GLA altogether i dont like their playstyle more of a China man myself
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Cobretti
post 10 Sep 2009, 1:09
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Er, Avengers aren't that powerful. They're expensive, require a Strategy Center, & very specialised (can only attack aircraft). Same with the ECM tank. Basically I use Avengers mostly for their PDL and targeting abilities. Besides, it makes sense that a faction fighting a faction reliant on missile spam would have, well, something to counter missile spam right? Most of the GLA missile rocket attacks are very powerful (i.e. Scorpion Rocket, SCUD, Rocket Buggy et al).


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Casojin
post 10 Sep 2009, 7:35
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I don't think Avenger is overpowered either (comparing to the cost of course). Though relied on missile weapons, GLA units are cheap and can be produced in more numbers than those Avengers, which are quite expensive. GLA tactic should not be facing the enemy directly. In such confrontation, GLA would fail. They must use tactics and tricks to destroy the enemy.

If you see enemy coming to your base, hit his base to lure his attention or other tactics to lure him away, split his force, and so on...


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Pickysaurus
post 10 Sep 2009, 14:54
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QUOTE (Casojin @ 10 Sep 2009, 4:35) *
In such confrontation, GLA would fail. They must use tactics and tricks to destroy the enemy.

If you see enemy coming to your base, hit his base to lure his attention or other tactics to lure him away, split his force, and so on...


Did your building just blow up? I wonder how that happened?
-Juhziz


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