State of Play, The new balance topic. Options

[Shock]

Hey. I've got some time on my hands and figured that I have enough experience with the current version to make a thread discussing the state of the factions in the game and the matchups. The other ''balance thread'' got kinda messed up due to some unnecessary discussions, but people do like to talk about it I noticed.

Jumping the gun, I could rank factions, but not all of them are at their best in each stage of the game, so split that up. I will start with my opinions of of the stages in a game of PVP:

Early game PVP

1. GLA
GLA's worker expansion makes them hands down the best early game faction. Sure, their tunnels no longer deploy with a gun, but Dushka nests have filled that gap with a cheap powerful gun that can't be defeated early game without an MBT. You can't really hope to win the derricks vs GLA which also gives them an early game resource advantage.

2. Russia/China
I rank Russia here because it has the strongest early game ground force available as well as a defensive structure (kashtan) that can lock down entire areas quickly. Their supply trucks are also resistant vs Infantry based harassment which gives you some more space to go on the offensive.

China's forces are comparable to Russia early game but they have a lot less firepower when not used in numbers. The gattling tank is a very versatile harassment unit though, and you have sufficient build speed to get an early horde that can fend off enemy pressure effectively.

4. USA
Down to USA. While they may be the lowest on the list here, its not because their units are bad. Its simply because they cant be as spammy as the others early game, and require both an airfield and war factory to effectively win in T0. Cobras are very strong harassers, but because you have to play defensive as USA to not succumb to pressure, they're the only thing you can do before you get your Detention camp. Humvee TOWS are very strong and so are Firebases, but they have to work together to get out of the pressure of the other factions, so you can hardly counter attack.

Mid Game PVP

1. GLA/China
Still topping the charts, if you took advantage of early expanding power and have a first level cash bounty, the GLA can put on mid game pressure like no other faction. Its not as apparent as in T0 though, because other factions can now field heavier units and build better defenses to seal off choke points. Using a numbers advantage and map control advantage, you are still ahead and still have the greatest chance of winning at this stage.

China gets both Inferno Cannons and Han nukes at this point, and you are not going to get stronger units barring upgraded overlords in T2. Infernos can burn everything down, so if you get a critical mass of these, then no other faction can confront your directly. If you have a strong ''ball of death'' and a good defensive position, you can go directly to T2, though protecting your infernos is key when you do that.

2. USA
With Avengers and upgraded Raptors, you can have better defense and great map control at this point. Your air force is what can really seal the deal here, because there is no T2 AA yet, and your ground ball is strong enough to survive GLA attacks. If you manage to get up a force of Wasps next ot an airfield full or Raptors, you have a really hard time losing.

3. Russia.
The advantages of T1 for Russia is basically one thing, getting to build towards T2. You can try to use your newly unlocked air force but it requires a lot of set up time and if you are not sure it can win the game, you better just play defensive and get an Industrial plant, because it makes your units so much cheaper and gets you the leg up you need in your secondary economy.

Late game PVP. With this I do not mean right after the T2 tech structures are built, but a while beyond that when those units are actually fielded.

1. China
China has both the best secondary economy and the most effective upgrades on T2. Black Napalm increases the scorching heat of your infernos to levels where even Sentinels get wasted, and you get Overlord tanks that have upgrade slots, 2 very good upgrades and provide easy propaganda. China can snowball very hard here with easily protected hackers and their stacking rate of fire/upgrade buffs.

2. USA
Here is where USA shines, with great survivability and a great artillery unit. USA can hard counter every kind of force that enemies can throw at them, and is especially resilient against GLA. Funny, because in the early game USA actually is the easiest beat for GLA. You also get an excellent T2 AA unit that's kind of butter on the cake while your raptors are still in the air.

3. Russia
Russia gets great options at T2, but they are still ranked third because of their vulnerability to stuff like Firestorms and Microwave tanks, and a general lack of effective AoE damage on the ground. MSTAs are rather inferior to Tomahawks or Infernos because they do not have either the range or the firepower to be very decisive. Forcing large engagements is your best bet, so you can prevent the enemy from slowly picking off your units. Grumbles can piss on anything in the air just like Sentinels do with ground units, but they require a good mix of support units. Added to that, your economy isnt very strong and you lose a lot of cash by simply upgrading from the Industrial plant.

4. GLA.
If you are at this point, it can become quite hard. You can't really win any direct confrontations anymore, and its kind of a ticking time bomb until the enemy's economy overpowers the GLA. It's an all-in strategy to take advantage of your cash bounty. You should have Sneak attack at this point though, and Grads are a very decent counter to enemy advances provided you have enough tunnels on the map. With enough map control, Grads can be a very good counter against tank blobs, but they are vulnerable when you cant tunnel pop them. Generally, the longer it takes, the less likely GLA will win.

So, with that read, get it on. Give your opinions on specific matchups and what you would do to increase balance wherever you see an imbalance.

[Knjaz.]

Pretty accurate analysis, imho. I'd only add that as a Russia, you can stick around mid-game/T1 for a while if you're going against GLA that, by some miracle, is not mass deploying buggies, cause at this point you're getting your Tesla tanks, which proved to be extremely efficient against all kinds of "light unit tactics". Won't help you against Chinese hordes, though.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 15 Nov 2012, 18:31

[H3adSh00t]

Hmmm , the GLA is actually better than rank 4 in Late PvP , if you go from T2 to T3 and play like a maniac with suicide stuff(Rambo kind ) and the Cash Bounty , you might beat the enemy...GLA wasn't made for direct assault but try using stealth and cammo for your advantage , damn Cammo Tunnel Defenders are best AT infantry IIRC , or the Demo Truks , use their abilites so you can make lots of money.

Btw the "GLA wasn't made for derect assaults" isn't that right , spam Scorpions and Quads + Sneak Tunnel = gg.
I think that both GLA and Russia should be ranked 3.

[Shock]

Btw the "GLA wasn't made for derect assaults" isn't that right , spam Scorpions and Quads + Sneak Tunnel = gg.

This is by definition not a direct assault, right?

Also I meant that you have no way to directly interact with Overlord/Sentinel hordes, while a USA player can still get in Microwaves with Paladins and have a standing chance if he manages to get the Inferno Cannons down. Vs China it will become a one way affair, as you cant get the infernos down with missiles and you cant directly attack the overlords either. It needs something like the Shockwave chameleon which is fast enough to avoid firestorms and can do decent damage against the Chinese horde without being interfered by ECM.

[Knjaz.]

This is by definition not a direct assault, right?

Also I meant that you have no way to directly interact with Overlord/Sentinel hordes, while a USA player can still get in Microwaves with Paladins and have a standing chance if he manages to get the Inferno Cannons down. Vs China it will become a one way affair, as you cant get the infernos down with missiles and you cant directly attack the overlords either. It needs something like the Shockwave chameleon which is fast enough to avoid firestorms and can do decent damage against the Chinese horde without being interfered by ECM.

Not entirely true. In numbers, Grads pose a high threat even to Sents, not mentioning Overs. To my experience, problems for GLA only start once primary supplies run out. If GLA player manages to up his Bounties until he'll run out of 50% of his primary supply cash, he's becoming extremely strong in that small period of time, because other factions are just beginning to build their secondary eco.

[__CrUsHeR]

GLA: Speed is your greatest ally with this faction, generally most vehicles moves quickly and can hit and run, a series of logistical factors (tunnels) allow you to spread like a plague across the map quickly including near the enemy base may eventually trigger a deadly attack on a decisive moment of the game. Most units are cheap and can cause considerable damage (AoE), the faction has the best early game and player demands some skill with micromanagement to the success of the attacks.

Disadvantages: If you are unsuccessful at the beginning of the game is unlikely to reverse the result desfaroval which will result in defeat. The second GLA economy depends on successful attacks to generate income if you are not been able to confront his opponent as an equal in the beginning things tend to get worse because the enemy already has support aerial, second economy stable and assault vehicles more powerful than yours.

Imbalances: The artillery Grad not match the style 'hit and run', moves slowly and has a very large AoE damage something that would be more appropriate for Russia faction.

CHINA: The secret is to build their units in mass and send them as fast as possible to the front, combining the vehicles is essential to achieve their goals because the tanks are specialized and therefore have advantages and disadvantages, to keep active in the attack becomes necessary multiple structures of production and economy ascente mainly the middle of the game forward.

Disadvantages: The vehicles from China are not durable and lose a whole battalion is something not hard to happen, the ranks are vulnerable to air strikes of the USA that predate the Twing Fang with ease leaving the convoy unprotected.

Imbalance: The Twin Fang has difficulty in neutralizing the threats flights (fighters), their firepower is very good however the short range limits its effectiveness, the Banshee is inefficient in protecting 'sensitive units' as the Twin Fang eg.

USA: Has a good balance between cost benefit, the air force is lethal against enemy targets, the cavalry has multiple capabilities (anti-infantry, anti-tank) and becomes quite durable if accompanied by drones for repair, the second economy is strong does the 'war machine' competitive against the adversary.

Disadvantages: Not found anything significant.

Imbalances: Nothing significant.

Russia: Has vehicles and helicopters 'frontline' powerful and resilient by nature a relatively strong infantry specializing (RPG, Igla ...), a good artillery capabilities, the defense stands out for AA capabilities (Grumble AA), the faction is characterized by being expandable in parts due to Gen.powers offering good support on the battlefield, most upgrades are global and benefit a large number of units.

Disadvantages: High cost of production and low mobility of vehicles, the second economy can not sustain the faction in a balanced game for long.

Imbalances: The Kodiak seems to have a very high cost disproportionate to its efficiency, the second economy of Russia needs minor improvements, MTP is not very efficient because his durability is low and demands too much micromanagement.

This post has been edited by __CrUsHeR: 15 Nov 2012, 21:21

[Shock]

Not entirely true. In numbers, Grads pose a high threat even to Sents, not mentioning Overs. To my experience, problems for GLA only start once primary supplies run out. If GLA player manages to up his Bounties until he'll run out of 50% of his primary supply cash, he's becoming extremely strong in that small period of time, because other factions are just beginning to build their secondary eco.

Well, that is provided you can tunnel pop them and have Ural support (have map control) Russian/China player would have no prob suiciding a few planes at your grads while theyre in the open. China doesnt die when its infernos die due to Overlords, but GLA can't really muster anything else unless it has a real numbers advantage.

So as I said, as long as you have control over the map, GLA is in a good position even late game, but it diminishes over time.

[H3adSh00t]

Hmm sugget that Devs should increase Fangs range a bit... 1vs1 vs almost most of planes is useless.
Frogfoot > Fang
Raptor with 4 missiles > Fang
2 Interceptor MiGs IIRC can > Fang
Even 2 GLA RPG plane's > Fang just because the RPGs damage is great
You can get a Fang with 2 or 3 Cobras
You can get one with 2 Han nukes or disable it with EMP
Is useless vs most of air Gen Powers because of its range ,you don't want ( FOABs , A-10s , Carpet Bombers , Nalpam Strikes , Cruise Missiles and the rest that I forgot )
in your base.

This doesn't mean that I want them to do it , is a suggestion because i see the Fang beaten even by Chaperral.

This post has been edited by H3adSh00t: 15 Nov 2012, 22:30

[Shock]

I can also get any other AA unit if I focus it with those units. The trick is to use it in multiples, as they have the highest DPS. You can never lose to choppers like that. They dont stop jets so good but hey it cant do everything.

[H3adSh00t]

Sorry if this means double-post.
I mean 1 vs 1 (or 2 in case of MiGs and GLAs planes)
Ofcourse used in groups they can be pain in the a$$ , even more if they have some Propaganda Towers with the ECM.
With support they can be very good but alone they aren't.
Above I compared all Heavy AA with Fang , even if he has the highest RoF , the small range makes it not so good.
The small range makes you put all Fangs near eachother but you can get them easy with 2-3 Frogfoots , if the range will be increased just a bit(with a Vees range) it wil be better.

[Shock]

Why would you put all fangs within one frogfoot barrage, that makes no sense. Having fangs forces their expensive frogfoots to target them, which is fine because the foots will still die, taking heavy fire at the barrage and getting finished off by gattlings.

[Banzai]

If you build a couple of fangs and spread them a bit, they CAN form a solid defence line against choppers and against some cheap fighters, IMO

[H3adSh00t]

Yes , spread them and you wil only have 2(maybe 3) shooting at the same target.
Maybe they can get normal aircraft but not Gen Powers.

[Knjaz.]

Yes , spread them and you wil only have 2(maybe 3) shooting at the same target.
Maybe they can get normal aircraft but not Gen Powers.

What? 3 Fangs under prop tower is enough to get most Gen Powers planes down.


As for "wasting shots" on overkill, this is what Fang is totally immune to, due to instant projectile speed.

[IPS]

Btw, has any of you ever tried to add Banshees with ECM bubble as anti jet defense?
Just curious if that could be a valid tactic to protect high priority units like overlords ; )

[Nemanja]

Btw, has any of you ever tried to add Banshees with ECM bubble as anti jet defense?
Just curious if that could be a valid tactic to protect high priority units like overlords ; )

I do that all the time,combined ECM tanks,ones without bubble activated and other with deactivated ones.
Also I put few Propaganda Airships in the mix.

[Pickysaurus]

With my fangs I usually position them so that a tech building acts as the 'meat shield' where they can still engage aircraft but a lot of fire is taken by the building.

[__CrUsHeR]

Already tried the ECM showed not be very effective as a countermeasure, you need several to create an effective barrier and still need luck to secure the desired unit, a possible solution would be the neutralization of missile fired and not just a random redirection. Instead of Banshee have the ability to defend passively he could have a button to activate your defensive shell.

He would work through micromanagement and the player would have to choose between actually intercept enemy missiles or communications.

Another possibility would be the replacement of the passive ability of the unit. The micromanagement (button) would be the anti-missile shell and the Communications Blackout passive ability. Logically the anti-missile defense would be more efficient to compensate for the change.

This post has been edited by __CrUsHeR: 16 Nov 2012, 11:53

[TheCeLL]

GLA Imbalances: The artillery Grad not match the style 'hit and run', moves slowly and has a very large AoE damage something that would be more appropriate for Russia faction.

Though it does not match the hit and run style, it still provides the GLA with a good defense and firepower to take care of massive tank blobs. While you have speedy hit and run units like the technical, rocket buggy, and bike, the massive vehicle blobs + airpower will be too much.

Considering the GLA had a scud launcher in ZH, I think its appropriate for the faction.

[SpiralSpectre]

Grad doesn't go with the GLA's hit and run but it provides GLA with some much needed firepower. Just cause GLA uses stealth and hit and run tactics doesn't mean all of their units must be based around those tactics. They need some different units to provide them with necessary flexibility. Saying GLA shouldn't have Grads is like saying Russia shouldn't have the Blackout Node.

[__CrUsHeR]

I agree to diversify the units and their functions within a faction, the GLA can not really have all its units based in hit and run so well is that as you said in ZH they possessed the SCUD, but the SCUD was more easy to be intercepted by the enemy forces and caused great damage, the current Grad is a Rocket Buggy whit steroid, the idea does not seem very creative and balanced for the game, maybe the team can think of something more interesting.

[Zeke]

I agree to diversify the units and their functions within a faction, the GLA can not really have all its units based in hit and run so well is that as you said in ZH they possessed the SCUD, but the SCUD was more easy to be intercepted by the enemy forces and caused great damage, the current Grad is a Rocket Buggy whit steroid, the idea does not seem very creative and balanced for the game, maybe the team can think of something more interesting.

You can't always be unique and creative about everything, sometimes simple solutions work best.

To me the Grad actually makes more sense than the scud. If you already have the rocket buggy and know that it's missile volley is hard to counter, why would you then pick something that fires only one missile and is easier to counter?

EDIT: Plus I disagree on the "grad is worse at hit and run". IMO it's much better (and a lot more annoying) when used with tunnels than scuds ever were. Unlike the scuds which take forever to setup, the grad is ready as soon as it leaves the tunnel.

This post has been edited by Zeke: 17 Nov 2012, 3:56

[__CrUsHeR]

You can't always be unique and creative about everything, sometimes simple solutions work best.

To me the Grad actually makes more sense than the scud. If you already have the rocket buggy and know that it's missile volley is hard to counter, why would you then pick something that fires only one missile and is easier to counter?

Precisely because it allows the opponent a chance to defend themselves from massive damage.

The Grad is annoying because its efficiency is almost complete, the attack can not be neutralized and cause severe damage to enemy units, associating it with the logistics GLA you create something that sounds like unbalanced in my opinion.

This post has been edited by __CrUsHeR: 17 Nov 2012, 4:01

[SpiralSpectre]

I agree to diversify the units and their functions within a faction, the GLA can not really have all its units based in hit and run so well is that as you said in ZH they possessed the SCUD, but the SCUD was more easy to be intercepted by the enemy forces and caused great damage, the current Grad is a Rocket Buggy whit steroid, the idea does not seem very creative and balanced for the game, maybe the team can think of something more interesting.

They already have. Now Buggy has the mortar to further distinguish itself from the Grad.

Not to mention Buggy barrage is mainly concentrated on a single target while Grad barrage has a big AoE. Buggy's damage type is rockets (I think) while Grad damages like real artillery. Another big difference is what you yourself have said already, it's in their roles. Buggy is mainly a hit and run vehicle, with Grad it's more about firepower.

Yeah SCUD missiles could be intercepted easily and that was one of the things that made GLA really weak against the US back on vanilla ZH. Introduction of Grad has arguably made this match-up more fair.

edit - In SCUD's defense (cause so far Ibrahiim is my most fave GLA gen), it takes forever to set up and only fires one missile. But it can deliver toxin payload so I guess it has it's uses. Not to mention it could always get some kinda rework later.

This post has been edited by SpiralSpectre: 17 Nov 2012, 4:02

[__CrUsHeR]

Yeah SCUD missiles could be intercepted easily and that was one of the things that made GLA really weak against the US back on vanilla ZH. Introduction of Grad has arguably made this match-up more fair.

Really makes them effective against the USA and overpower against China that depends on armored battalions to attack the enemy, the Grads do not give chance to the vehicles.

The solution would be to improve the defense capabilities of China against Grads, or some modification of the unit in question.

This post has been edited by __CrUsHeR: 17 Nov 2012, 4:12