ECA Doser rush counter, eca vs russia discussion Options

[XAOC-RU-]

Drebel, is the reason it has been working for you LOL...

he is not good early game at all. hes too slow
I rushed him with one doser, plenty of times, i dont doser rush anymore tho

But i have much respect for him, he plays me all the time, and does not dodge
and late game I wouldn't mind having him on my team, he accually knows what to build

and feel free to hmu if u wana test this on me

Sure I can test it with you. The reason why I played with him is very small amount of players when I online. Sure you can show better game since I know your games. Ussually I play between 00:00-2:00 on sunday and sometimes a bit early in other days if I have free time. My timezone is GMT+5.

[chemisthypnos]

you seem to have completely missed one of the key parts, as you should do with every pvp match SCOUT
xeres was only able to stop both those dozers because he SAW them comeing due to scouting.

high skill and speed had very little to do with that, any player at any skill level can stop a dozer if they bother to scout asap which as i just said is something you should do every match

Not true. While it is very important to scout, it does not mean that you will stop a dozer rush even if you see it coming beforehand. If you try to emulate the video shown above without using any hotkeys and operate with about half of the speed in ordering your dozers (about what the average player plays like), this counter will not work.

Conversely, even a mediocre ECA player will do just about the same thing that Bruce did in this video.

[chemisthypnos]

Well, now there's common sense in this discussion. High/Top level (relative to player skills in community) vs Mid/Low level state of balance is something we do at times consider. Like, even right now in 187 there're units that I totally expect to be pretty hard to counter on Mid to Low skill level, but we're working on that.
I'd like to see what happens in your games - and preferably not on TD, it's a completely obsolete map for RotR gameplay.

I do agree with your sentiment.

The problem in this case is that I think that this counter will only work for players able/willing to invest the time to learn hotkeys/have a fast reaction time (not most of the community).

[chemisthypnos]

its rather map dependent as well as player skill levels and awareness of the situation.

for EG as has been stated up top 2nd dozer to 1 supply, third to second supply.
however the alternative for the eca player is only do a 2 dozer start
1st dozer goes off to assault the Russian player, second stays behind to build the base up.
its less BS and slightly easier for the russian player to deal with while also being less catastrophic for the ECA player if the assault fails due to haveing the extra 1k from skipping the third dozer.

key points.
A: Always scout asap with a mishka so you can see if a dozer or engihound rush is coming
B: if your base is being assaulted by a dozer building defenses or a Rax, wreck the dozer asap ignore the defenses or go around them.
C: bmp to chase and take out the dozer, Grizzly to tank the guard towers or deal with any inf/dogs by a sneeky rax
D: use ur smokes to distract
E: counter assault, ur primary sup is under assault by a dozer rush? sneak the eca back from the other flank it will be exposed 90% of the time distract the eca player and the sup rush will fail

This seems to be a very simplistic model for a more complicated process. It is very easy to say to just wreck the dozer, but it is much harder in application (assuming a mediocre reaction time for building construction / no use of hotkeys in the beginning). The average player will not be able to get a BMP out to effectively counter the dozer due to a lacking of appropriate reaction time. This means that nearly the entire community will not be able to employ this counter against the rush. I have estimated the time to be only enough to get a kodiak out before a fortification is garisonned with infy at Russia's supply (I am not saying that this is the strat to use, I am only using it as a time reference without hotkeys etc...). Scouting will not always allow you to stop the dozer rush. Most palyers can see it coming, but they cannot do anything about it.

[Skitt]

in that case ill add another point and the very most important of all

USE YOUR BRAIN

This post has been edited by Skitt: 3 Dec 2016, 15:29

[Mizo]

More like :

USE HOTKEYS!

If hotkeys are what determines you winning or loosing, use em.

[chemisthypnos]

More like :

USE HOTKEYS!

If hotkeys are what determines you winning or loosing, use em.

I understad what you are saying. Virtually all Russia players will be farmed by this strat though.

Examine the difference in skill required to counter this strat for other factions:
USA: firebases are often enough to stop this strat completely when used with missile defenders / rangers.
GLA: quads...enough said.
ECA: Impossible due to cheetah/ mirror strat.
China: Rapid production of fast building vehicles / infy. The rush will fail.
Russia: Player must have very fast build time/ knowledge of hotkeys to be able to build a BMP in time to stop the dozer. BMP + grizzly + RPG conscripts to fully stop the rush.

There is a much larger mountain of difficulty for a Russia player to overcome to have a hope of not being killed by the rush. As such, alot fewer people that play Russia will be able to counter the rush. I estimate that, given the constraints, I don't think that many people will be able to counter it.

[Mizo]

But at the same time, playing Russia does not require the highest micro-level of unit control to make them effective, unlike other factions like USA. ( It's in fact intentionally the easiest).

So yeah, Skill level really counts here.

[chemisthypnos]

in that case ill add another point and the very most important of all

USE YOUR BRAIN

It is an unfortunate reality that most people will not invest the time to learn the shortcuts that we are discussing. It has gotten to the point that virtually every ECA player online just immediately dozer rushes Russia players, and It works almost every time because most people will not be able to do fast counters like this. I think that this reality is something to be considered when discussing this topic. I think that this strat is a big problem because I have literally seen Russia players switch to GLA as soon as they see their enemy is ECA.

[{Lads}RikerZZZ]

If youre not willing to learn the counter, then you deserve to lose to the strategy.

Simple as that.

[chemisthypnos]

If youre not willing to learn the counter, then you deserve to lose to the strategy.

Simple as that.

You can pursue that logic to conclude that there is no such thing as an OP strategy. There does, theoretically, exist a counter to every strategy. It is like fighting GLA as Russia in 1.86. Theoretically, it is counterable, but in application, almost no one can do it against any decent GLA player.

[chemisthypnos]

But at the same time, playing Russia does not require the highest micro-level of unit control to make them effective, unlike other factions like USA. ( It's in fact intentionally the easiest).

So yeah, Skill level really counts here.

* See reply to Rikerzzz below*

[Skitt]

It is an unfortunate reality that most people will not invest the time to learn the shortcuts that we are discussing. It has gotten to the point that virtually every ECA player online just immediately dozer rushes Russia players,

thats pritty simple realy, eca realy realy needs to cripple the russia or drastically slow them down to delay it reaching T2, eco spamming and going full bulldozer bruteforce mode.
other wise its mandatory turtle ur ass off get forced to go pandora, get ur head kicked in and be in for one hell of a fight.

[Zion]

You can pursue that logic to conclude that there is no such thing as an OP strategy. There does, theoretically, exist a counter to every strategy. It is like fighting GLA as Russia in 1.86. Theoretically, it is counterable, but in application, almost no one can do it against any decent GLA player.

Look man, the only reason you are loosing ur russia games to gla and eca, is because these players are much better than you, if they were same level as you, you would be winning every game..
Why?
because russia is so easy to play, u dont need perfect build orders, you dont need micro, you just spam units and eco and win, with some simple combos and stats
gla and eca on the other hand, require much more effort to win in general I know this because I play all factions..
if gla and eca fail to rush Russia, it literally becomes the hardest matchup, russia completely wrecks eca late game, and it completely wrecks gla in its mid game, and if ur buggy micro is not on point and you have no tunnels, u will suffer the defeat. or for eca, I dont even know how to win a late game russia, to me it seams impossible, Im talking about high level games.

The original question was whether this strat was counterable or not..
there is a video here that shows it is..
now ur telling the devs to make changes so that "ur one faction u play" will suite u, and make you win every game, sorry man thats not how it works

we can close/lock this argument...

This post has been edited by Zion: 5 Dec 2016, 14:51

[{Lads}RikerZZZ]

Pretty much what Zion said.

A fair amount of unit counters are designed around micro and skill (especially with USA and GLA), and that extends to eca and russia as well.
You need to adapt and play faster to beat/counter these strats because they are rather easily beatable if you know what to do.

You now know what to do, so go out and try it