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How to play super heavy tanks well?, It is hard to perform correct maneuver for me
Pegasus99
post 19 Sep 2017, 10:11
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Hello there!
I'm an old player for C&C GZH but recently found this outstanding MOD so new here tongue.gif
Very good ideas and work for new features and balance
Here is a question for you guys ether helping me or simply give discussion is very welcome

How to play super heavy tanks well? (ex: Overlord, Golem, Sentinel)

First, I played a lot Red Alert 2, and its amazing MOD Mental Omega. I think the main difference between RA2 tanks and ROTR tanks is the control handling.
RA2 has older and more simple game mechanism, that all unit has it's "capacity area" to fit in(a 3*3 square for Chronoshift for example, so you can fit 9 tanks in), and the movement is just simple from square to square, with a forgivable "squeezing" during the movement to avoid too much rubbing. When a tank need to change directions, they simply just hovering at the origin site and find the direction, so they don't have to drive back and forth. This in fact is important for real tanks too, and most tanks can do that for better mobility.
But in C&C GZH and ROTR, the tanks just struggle moving. They often ran into each other, then slow down or stop, then move one by one, forming a long column. If the leading one is engaging, the others just stock or struggling forward by, again, push and stop and backward all the time. This of course become annoying particular in big heavy tanks, and sometimes "big and small" mixture. When I see the articles about Russian's OP and think "Why the hell I just suck in them lol". First I think I only play PVE so the big strong slow Russian is hard to against nimble & flexible control ability that computer have. Second I think is that I'm bad at controlling these big monsters well.
ROTR as long as C&C GZH are great games, but recently I felt RA2/Mental Omega is easier to perform great strategy and control skill to play an intense game. So how about you guys thinking? Do you like how tanks control in ROTR? Do you think if giving tanks better maneuverbility and at the same time giving trucks even better maneuverbility will let tanks too OP?
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Mizo
post 19 Sep 2017, 11:52
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Its morely based on pathfinding and unit locomotors.
Heavy tanks accelerate slowly and have slow turn rates hence why they have the sluggish movement. This design in particular is intended for both a balance and aesthetic purposes.

Tips in handling said tanks :

Dont use Overlords with other smaller tanks unless you cant afford other overlords to get the horde bonus.

Use Group formations with ctrl + F.


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 19 Sep 2017, 13:43
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Heavy tanks usually have a support gimmick built into their design (prop, anti-air, arena etc) so you want to formation your units to get the most out of this.
This means you either pop them at the front of your army to absorb the highest possible damage, or putting them in the middle to make their support powers cover the most units.

Then just use them as normal tanks. They shoot shit, shit dies and dont let them get hit by anti-tank stuffs


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Maelstrom
post 19 Sep 2017, 15:18
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1 important tip: keep them away from hijackers. It hurts when a cheap dude with a crowbar steals your brand new metal monster.
Jokes aside, I agree with what Mizo and Rik said (support role), with the exception of the shenlong. This one MUST be in the front line, otherwise you will burn down your entire army in the blink of an eye.


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Hanfield
post 19 Sep 2017, 17:38
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Blob.
Move.


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(USA)Bruce
post 19 Sep 2017, 18:47
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QUOTE (Maelstrom @ 19 Sep 2017, 17:18) *
1 important tip: keep them away from hijackers. It hurts when a cheap dude with a crowbar steals your brand new metal monster.
Jokes aside, I agree with what Mizo and Rik said (support role), with the exception of the shenlong. This one MUST be in the front line, otherwise you will burn down your entire army in the blink of an eye.


Actually you know that telecom wirey thing they have above their shoulders? Its actually a Long Reach Tool mixed in with a slim jim.
Heres a brief explanation.

Do cars use the same lock system as tanks? I highly doubt it, but then agian somehow this guy gets in the tank, kills the crew then mutates into an octopuss and suddenly can drive, target and load the shells too.Also reverts this mutation after the tanks killed and goes onto the next tank.

For the subject of heavy tanks, for russia they're the benchmark of your strike forces.You'll always want sentinels againt any faction unless its a nuke cannon/nuke weapon spamming china.Then you switch to golems.Same with Pandora ECA, Golems are immune to nerve gas.

Keep in mind that just like in ZH or CCG that heavies are not unbeatable and they actually do loose to tanks if they are in the same cost range so to speak. Like 4k worth of battlemasters would beat 4k worth of overlords.
Unlike in zh we dont have nuke overlords thats speed as hell so you wont go really far with micro kiting.But the advantage of heavies stays the same, they have longer range, good burst damage and they have more hp.

However there are a few changes to them so this should consider when to use them;

Marauders: Not really a heavy but the heaviest tank of the GLA, their only trait is that like sentinels they're Immune to mines (There are exeption to this)
Try to use them vs a mine heavy ECA as there are some mines that can even kill your mine clearing unit AKA the worker
Also they're good vs china, but aside from that they're really useless in the public build.

Paladins: An overgrown Kodiak, not really a heavy either (It looses to a kodiak if both are default) that has a PDL that reduces damage of missles/rockets but doesnt really make you immune.
Consider using them vs a GLA or ECA as ECA lacks proper AT damage aside from Tigers and Gun turrets.Your paladins can deal with leopards, PDL panzerfausts slow and unguided projectile.
If you unlocked armour company you most likely got it for the patriot anti air to begin with.

Now for the real heavies:

Overlords,
Theese guys can be debated if they're heavies to begin with
See unlike in zh they arent the one tank beast from before, their tottal dps has been reduced and scaled to only shine when theres horde bonus+prop.Sure you can slap 500 dollars for a free prop tower but the horde bonus requirement eventually just turns them into a unit to spam.
See them more as bigger battlemasters or psuedo golems/paladins due to their prices that they're closest to (1800)
Oh but a unique perk that ROTR has added that you wouldnt know unless you look in the code/play alot is that their bunker upgrade now provides extra hp (I think it was 15%?) and gives the units inside garrison bonuses.So thats 20% range and damage to your HITSCAN tank hunters.

Also If your having issues with aircraft or justs tommahawks/balistic missles in general.The gattling tank is still a beast and its 900 now rather then 1200.

Shenlongs


So this is the unit that cant benefit from horde bonus due to it firing basically a single flame but really really fast.But it can give it to other units around it.That means that you could always snuggle them up with (T)Winfangs for that extra boost in DPS should you lack the units doing so.

This thing is pretty much a fat dragon tank, Its arc is supposedly an advantage to control the area and the DPS it does.If its more to one target or to a entire field.
Great vs GLA, I would not suggest it vs a USA however due to chemical suits giving their infantry a noticeable amount of flame resistance.
These tanks don't really work well with others, so its best to use them to flank or backdoor inside bases or use them as meat shields , as if one of these get into a base its already too late.
Sort of an odd one out in the china arsenal and player usually prefer the overlord rather then this due to the utility it provides and dragon tanks like I mentioned before fall in the same category of "5 little guys is better then one guy" Because like the shenlong they don't need horde bonus either, or propaganda for their DPS.

Sentinel Tanks

Not much to say about these guys, they're big, they're strong, they can destroy most things out of a warfactory in one hit.The warden pods are good vs US if they dont have countermeasures yet, A Comanche dies to 3 or 4 bursts, against Infantry they are "something".They cant engage ballistic misses like those from tomahawks nor can they shred infantry out in the open.

The arena system is a great tool for Russia, this tank is one of the two sources of this system (The other being the component tower)
Now I should clear up some confusing for this thing, this thing wont negate buggies as much as you need them to.The explosions will also harm Infantry allied or hostile near it so beware of that.
It wont be able to properly Intercept jet missiles from sniping your Mstas-I mean Gorgons.What it will do however is to help you versus stuff that fires slower for more burst damage like grads.
Likewise they're really effective versus anything that I did not mention, like It'll give your Sentinel more bang for your buck vs a dozen or so fully upgraded scorpions and negate/completely neutralize javelins and disruptor teams if they are in pairs.(One of them wont be enough) They're also good vs helicopter misses or morely what ever that doesn't overwhelm them

>Worth mentioning
Blackbear is a unit that's millage can vary depending on the type of game your playing.
In team games or larger 2v2 maps you'll be facing that annoying GLA player who only spams buggies and has some quads, covers his airspace with Urals so you cant persue the buggies or assault the tunnels they run off to due to walls of defenses/stingers. In games where the scale is that big and travel distance is large, It wont do you much good.Same versus say a USA who has like 6-8 Widowmakers/Raptors that have lazer guided missles.They will instantly snipe your glorious little guy.
Shorta gives it that window of space that lets you either retreat or finish the engagement off, Thermaberic shot can kill entire general points worth of Infantry regardless of chemica suits or not.
Smoke is a mini-Shorta to begin with (It gives all units 0.1 seconds of untargetability and spawns smoke canisters that they instead autotarget)

However in 1v1's or smaller matchups, this thing is just a win button.
If this thing makes it to the middle of the map and is still advancing without taking much resistence you lost the game pal.You'll of course hear people respond to this saying that heros are effective versus it as they kill or disable it,which is true but you also have a Hero who wont be eating apples.Same thing with general powers that can be wasted on this beast, which is just a window or room for you to use your own on actually important targets or on their army.
Also unlike the sentinel this thing cant be hijacked but it can be depiloted by pandora just like any other tank.So beware! The last thing you want is an ECA who can give this thing bloodhound/antimissle coverage with repairing pandurs on the side, supported by marksman helicopters that increases its ROF/DPS

GOLEM TANK


What to say about this thing? Its Immune to toxins, radiation and most other unconventional weapons, Its not immune to microwaves, It has shorta instead of arena system so Its made to charge towards the foe or retreat under its guise/cover.Shorta doesn't really make a unit Invunerable just untargetable, which means force firing gun turrets with penetrator rounds are propabably the most viable weapon agaisnt them aside from grads.Versus something like USA? USA's best AOE weapon is viper rocket pods that wont even get to fully unload if you got the airspace locked down under grumbles.
Its got two dual MG's that are like warden missle pods but lack the aoe, which it trades off for uninterceptable hitscan cannons.

Let me be frank, this thing is something that people will say is a preference for the match up and situation, which it should be as its the sentinels replacement for general Aleksander for 2.0
But make no mistake, this is the most ideal mindless spam unit in the game, If the game reaches to rank five and you have three new general powers, pick blackbear and the coilgolem/Tela tank option asap.

The coilgolem increases its damage (I think, maybe mistaken) but most important gives it hitscan capabilities.Mixed in with free veterancy and a cheaper price then a sentinel but more expensive then a kodiak.This thing is worth spamming late game, Its AA cannons arent amazing but you have grumbles agaisnt helicopters, If you scout a jet coming you can always use shorta so it can forget its target and return to base or flying around mindlessly confused only to be shot down.
Against light Infantry or helicopters the gun will take you far enough, If your faced against mob type units mix in some burantinos or tesla tanks if its more singular elite Infantry (like javs)

Not saying this combo is uncounterable, Its just the best in the game with the least amount of counters/hardest to counter...God help you if you face a russia who spams multiple warfactories of veteran fully upgraded golems with grumble and teslas on the side.

Edited to add: Always prioritize getting heavy anti air before heavies for all cases unless your vs a GLA you can live without heavies but living without hostile jets/controlling airspace reduces the games challenge by 2.Russia's heavies can replace and often do replace kodiaks/bmp's and such.Like I mentioned before overlords can do the same for battlemasters and hoppers wont be seen lategame unless its a joke/distraction.However russian ones are designed to be better on their own unlike the Chinese however the shenlong is an exeption to this.

This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 19 Sep 2017, 19:03


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Pegasus99
post 20 Sep 2017, 10:19
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Okay maybe I ' ve gotten carried away, thanks for these tips anyway!
The big question is that how to control/maneuver well in heavy tanks? Like the mighty Golem spam, it's hard for the back Golems to cover the front Golems, and the tank corpse often block the way.
Another problem is mixing Big and small tanks(even trucks) together.For example: I use Sentinel+arena as meat shield to cover for example my Tunguska and Badger for a multy-purpose assult team, but the Badger just hanging around and don't keep in the middle of the team to repair others; the Tunguska go to front line eat shells and die quickly; the front Sentinel see the enemy so stop and shoot, while others busy hovering around (and at the same time push Badger away from cover) or just wait for the front Sentinel finisih the enemy on his own.
Another example is gattling Overlord + speaker tower Overlord while I want some ECM tanks for better resistant from missles, but if ECM tank take too much damage at front or flank, it's hard to pull them back due to fat ass Overlords.
Previously mention ctrl+F, how does it works? I didn't felt too much difference, and I can't even make sure I gave that order successfully. Again thanks for attentions.
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Arc
post 21 Sep 2017, 2:04
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One does not simply suggest ideas to SWR.



You select your group, put them in the positions you want them to stay, CTRL + F, and click a location to move. Your units will stay in their formation and match the slowest unit's speed. Attacking an enemy or attack move will break formation.
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Pegasus99
post 21 Sep 2017, 3:50
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QUOTE (Arc @ 21 Sep 2017, 9:04) *
You select your group, put them in the positions you want them to stay, CTRL + F, and click a location to move. Your units will stay in their formation and match the slowest unit's speed. Attacking an enemy or attack move will break formation.


Oh man I gave it another try and found it works!
Here I list some tips I found:
1. Arrange the formation of the troop "before" grouping. Make the Badgers sit in the middle, Tunguskas at flank and Sentinels at front, etc.
2. Select the group to "go toward middle of the formation", this help the group become tighter.
3. When attacking, you still need to micro control the front group to go further to make the rear group become useful.
4. When attacking and facing very little resistance, repeating "attack, move, attack, move" between reloading to eliminate several enemies while maintain the formation.
5. When entering very small entrance, disable the group formation and micro control on your own.

This helps a lot to perform a battle group, if anyone has any ideas feel free to share. Now unfortunately we can not use individual tank ability in a whole group for example: grouping Badgers and Golems together while the Shtora Defense System icon is gone, we need to select Golems only to activate that. But I guess it's manageable for good players anyway, unlike me tongue.gif
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