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Manticore and Black Bear problem?
WULF1045
post 2 Nov 2017, 16:42
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Cmon seriously!? Why the RUSSIANS GET A SUPER HEAVY TANK CAN WE BUFF THE MANTICORE YOU CAN ONLY BUILD 1 AT A TIME ITS REGARDLESS!!! ECA HAS NO BETTER TANKS I PREFER MY TANKS SLOW AND HEAVY ARMOURED THIS IS DUMB! WE DON'T GET A GOOD TANK AT ALL CMON
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Hecthor Doomhamm...
post 2 Nov 2017, 16:56
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You forget that the Blackbear is an OPTION! You have to select the Ursa Division GP at R5, but it's not mandatory.


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Hanfield
post 2 Nov 2017, 17:28
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WULF1045
post 2 Nov 2017, 17:42
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QUOTE (Hecthor Doomhammer @ 2 Nov 2017, 17:56) *
You forget that the Blackbear is an OPTION! You have to select the Ursa Division GP at R5, but it's not mandatory.


Wait is the blackbear part of the official 1.87 Update or not? What do you mean Ursa Division? The Manticore is also an option you have to decide Manticore or The Neutron tank or that robot and WHAT THE HELL... WHAT NEW UNITS ARE WE GOING TO GET IN FOR ECA TANKS?

This post has been edited by WULF1045: 2 Nov 2017, 17:47
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Maelstrom
post 2 Nov 2017, 18:57
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First of, stop it with the caps. It just makes your text annoying to read.

Then, blackbear and manticore are different in their role. Blackbear's speciality is to deal heavy damage, while Manticore is a support vehicle. And it got buffed in that aspect by getting the nanoshield.

The Ursa division is the GP that unlocks the Blackbear. And it is an official feature for 1.87.

And no new tank is planned for ECA in 1.87

This post has been edited by Maelstrom: 2 Nov 2017, 19:21


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WULF1045
post 2 Nov 2017, 21:06
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what is a Nano Shield?
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Maelstrom
post 2 Nov 2017, 21:56
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QUOTE (WULF1045 @ 2 Nov 2017, 21:06) *
what is a Nano Shield?

It is an ability for the Manticore.
When you activate it, the tank repairs itself at a very high speed. It is in version 1.87 beta.


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(USA)Bruce
post 2 Nov 2017, 22:24
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Challenger will come as a leo replacement for 2.0 but generally you forget this one thing;

ECA can go for super Infantry, super tanks and Super SW+Super GP's (They also get the the fenris but I doubt anyone properly uses it)

Russia on the other hand gets to have tanks, tanks, cheap infantry and tanks alongside great helis with tanks.But overall its just a tank based faction all over...

They dont have the flexibility of changing their tactics too much, like their build order difference between a US/ECA/GLA is just the difference of how many mstas(Gorgons)/tunguskas and Tesla's tanks they bring in their never really changing compositions or tank blobs


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Mizo
post 2 Nov 2017, 22:30
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Bruce I was expecting you to jump on the Blackbear OP bandwagon tongue.gif

But yeah Manticore got loads of buffs in 1.87 to the point of it being somewhat OP in certain scenarios against GLA.


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(USA)Bruce
post 2 Nov 2017, 22:38
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QUOTE (Mizo @ 3 Nov 2017, 0:30) *
Bruce I was expecting you to jump on the Blackbear OP bandwagon tongue.gif

But yeah Manticore got loads of buffs in 1.87 to the point of it being somewhat OP in certain scenarios against GLA.


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Blackbear is bullshit in 1v1's, sometimes 2v2's but that doesnt also mean that it should loose to a manticore, manticores more multirole and could be resembled to an armored paladin in the middle of your blob more focused on healing and cant be sniped easily while sentinels role is being in the front and kicking ass/killing everything.

Manticore's balanced around the idea that it'll have an ECA blob with it and keep the blob alive with this.Even if you can use this as a spearheading tank, ECA doctrine suggests counter artillery with heavy howitzer/claymore bombardments and molemine/mortar truck fire to destroy defences.Then your forces go in and meet theirs, where they win because of the anvil and manticores silly advantages.Put 3-4 anvils next to your manticore, realise how unkillable it is.Or if your playing vs the AI or someone who cant or doesn't know to force fire on the ground then the same effect can be achieved.

This post has been edited by (USA)Bruce: 2 Nov 2017, 22:38


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Zeke
post 3 Nov 2017, 3:18
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Guys, guys, you are using waay too many words.

Wulf, it's very simple:

> Offensive factions get better vehicles but worse defences
> Defensive factions get better defences but worse vehicles
> ROTR Russia is an offensive faction
> ECA is a defensive faction
Therefore: Russia gets the better tanks

Here's another one:

> The real world gets real world stats
> ROTR is not part of the real world
Therefore: ROTR does not get real world stats

Understand now?

This post has been edited by Zeke: 3 Nov 2017, 3:20


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jl319
post 3 Nov 2017, 10:23
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Wut lol he made another post just to whine about the Blackbear again? LOL laugh.gif
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Zion
post 3 Nov 2017, 15:48
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QUOTE (Zeke @ 2 Nov 2017, 22:18) *
Guys, guys, you are using waay too many words.

Wulf, it's very simple:

> Offensive factions get better vehicles but worse defences
> Defensive factions get better defences but worse vehicles
> ROTR Russia is an offensive faction
> ECA is a defensive faction
Therefore: Russia gets the better tanks

Here's another one:

> The real world gets real world stats
> ROTR is not part of the real world
Therefore: ROTR does not get real world stats

Understand now?


except, to win u need to attack blink.gif
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Zeke
post 3 Nov 2017, 16:17
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QUOTE (Zion @ 3 Nov 2017, 22:48) *
except, to win u need to attack blink.gif


You're point being?

This post has been edited by Zeke: 3 Nov 2017, 16:17


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 7 Nov 2017, 6:14
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The point being that a diffusive faction alone is entirely unviable and will lose every game its in if it cant do some sort of aggression or harassment.

How it usually ends up going is the other side just invests in more sec eco and expands more rapidly. If the other side cant contest that through design (not player skill) then they will win every single time. its a matter of money. If the other side cant keep their production up and is getting out masses and scaled by the other side (plus when you account for things like super weapons and generals powers killing potentially huge swaths of your lifeblood for essentially free) then the defensive faction physically can not stand up to that sort of aggression.

ECA needs some sort of aggression potential and currently it has that through mole mines and infantry + tigers for aggressive based playstyles, and minefields and howitzers for defensive ones.
Whilst It does sadden me that tanks are not a viable part of eca gameplay (even with digouts and manticore) i can see why they are like how they are and tbh theres not much you can really do without accidentally making them to overpowered.
The idea of making them t0 and have more hp is currently being tested on the LG patch, and that actually works pretty well, but I would call that the limit of what could be done to the eca tank roster without making it bullshit overpowered.


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Zeke
post 7 Nov 2017, 6:46
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QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ @ 7 Nov 2017, 13:14) *
The point being that a diffusive faction alone is entirely unviable and will lose every game its in if it cant do some sort of aggression or harassment.

How it usually ends up going is the other side just invests in more sec eco and expands more rapidly. If the other side cant contest that through design (not player skill) then they will win every single time. its a matter of money. If the other side cant keep their production up and is getting out masses and scaled by the other side (plus when you account for things like super weapons and generals powers killing potentially huge swaths of your lifeblood for essentially free) then the defensive faction physically can not stand up to that sort of aggression.

ECA needs some sort of aggression potential and currently it has that through mole mines and infantry + tigers for aggressive based playstyles, and minefields and howitzers for defensive ones.
Whilst It does sadden me that tanks are not a viable part of eca gameplay (even with digouts and manticore) i can see why they are like how they are and tbh theres not much you can really do without accidentally making them to overpowered.
The idea of making them t0 and have more hp is currently being tested on the LG patch, and that actually works pretty well, but I would call that the limit of what could be done to the eca tank roster without making it bullshit overpowered.


Cool story, except WULF is specifically talking about "Y russia has the best tanks?" and "Y ECA has shit tanks?" not about ECA having problems attacking Russia. Plus, judging by his posts, it seems he hasn't even played 1.87 and is merely speculating based on update renders.

I too hate ECA's lack of offensive capability, but that's not what's being talked about here, and that's not what I'm defending.

It is common sense for the defense oriented faction to have "shit tanks", provided they have another way to win games of course.


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XAttus
post 7 Nov 2017, 11:07
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One does not simply kill BB with tanks... biggrin.gif


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(USA)Bruce
post 7 Nov 2017, 14:38
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QUOTE (XAttus @ 7 Nov 2017, 13:07) *
One does not simply kill BB with tanks... biggrin.gif

Video evidence to prove his point

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Scud
post 8 Nov 2017, 7:11
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My only real complain about ECA tanks (at least with the leopard) is their speed... I mean, if they were at least something with high mobility like the grizzly tank in Red Alert 2 that would help a lot when playing offensive. They already cost a lot and are slow to build, why they need to move slow too!. I know ECA's main theme is their artillery, but it gets really annoying when your armored forced can't get to the front line in time to support the artillery. It's not that bad but it feels a little weird that the best way to attack with ECA is to -mostly of the times- build defenses as if it were one of those tower defense games.

P.S. I know that the Manticore Protocol unlocks the Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but at that time they are not that usefull when the Manticore that heals your forces is a slowpoke, damn I don't even bother building it when I choose that protocol.


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Mizo
post 8 Nov 2017, 9:15
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Actually for their stats and class, having a base speed of 32 isn't THAT bad. They're only abit behind Crusaders by abit.


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XAttus
post 8 Nov 2017, 9:21
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So we are yet again at the point where people want ECA to not only be fucking annoying nightmarish pain in the ass to fight, but also good at the only thing they can't do well. Congratulations.


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Skitt
post 8 Nov 2017, 11:37
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eca in a nutshell:

Sh**e tank forces due to them just dieing to a sneeze.
long BT's and high prices meaning low tank amounts, pritty crap when ur vs gla/russia/china.
way too much reliance on howitzers due to haveing very limited counter artillery or ability to close the distance to enemy arty (see previous point)

only option in most of the games is to def wall and howy spam, which quite frankly is boring and just pathetic.
the entire faction needs a full price/bt/stats overhaul.
still gonna keep maining eca though, even if i cant see squat due to the region command filling the entire screen (thanks stupid camera height) tongue.gif

Granted most of eca's problems will be solved with 2.0 content but thats not happening any time soon.


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Scud
post 10 Nov 2017, 7:36
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QUOTE (XAttus @ 8 Nov 2017, 5:21) *
So we are yet again at the point where people want ECA to not only be fucking annoying nightmarish pain in the ass to fight, but also good at the only thing they can't do well. Congratulations.


I actually think they turrets (MG guard tower + AT gun tower) are just a bit overpower (most people don't even bother to build units or the fortifications because of that) also the need of power of the first one doesn't even make sense. My point is why I have to build an attack force that is inferior to most enemies counterparts? (at least until level 5 protocols) specially in a small map (most 1vs1 games) if I just can spam those turrets along side sky shield AA over the map like a moving wall of death. Some units are practically not even worth to built like the Jagdmammut Tank Destroyer that costs $ 1200 and has only 500 HP and the Gun Turret costs $ 1200, can not move, but has a whopping 1400 HP.

Maybe the real problem when balancing this faction is that its defenses alone are very weak, but when you have for example two of each in one place it is practically impossible to destroy them without artillery or a large number of units, mainly because of the amount of HP that they have I would prefer that their defenses were cheaper but their HP were lower (in the case of the gun, is insane how much infantry those can kill without any help) it would be easier for the player to diversify their defenses, surround the base with them, and have some money to spend on units.

This post has been edited by Scud: 10 Nov 2017, 7:42


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Mizo
post 10 Nov 2017, 8:46
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Turrent spamming is kind of the core theme of ECA though, so if you really wanted to play offensive, go for other factions as they can fill the role alot better.

Though Gun turrents are only unique for 1 of the 3 generals and lets say that the other AT options the other 2 will get is going to be rather shit.

Current ECA plays alot like General Willem. They barely have any of the core units from the other 2, while having a core from the former ( gun turrent). Adding a unit from the other 2 would horribly break the faction, believe me , as it can give certain capabilities that NO Heavy defensive faction in ANY RTS should have.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 10 Nov 2017, 8:47


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GeneralAziz
post 10 Nov 2017, 15:34
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Yes blackbear is hard to kill and its strong , But is it better than the combo of Manticore and anvils ?
IMO no specially vs GLA its extremely hard to kill it since you need to kill those shield tanks first so you can attack it , and Jarmen kell can not disable shielded manticore so yea
On the other hand blackbear can be overwhelmed with grads and buggies As well as using upgraded infernos and nuke cannons can do the trick too , basically each faction can kill it if done properly.

and dont forget pandora which is a much more annoying choice vs russia with the nerve gas and neutron bomb .
i think ECA has much more overwhelming tactics in its hand than russia ,


in the end it all depends on the player.

Good luck

This post has been edited by GeneralAziz: 10 Nov 2017, 15:51


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