ECA in Skirmish., Can it be even worse? Options

[X1Destroy]

Everytime I pick ECA I got rofl stomped by the medium Russian AI. Super late game is currently impossible to play as ECA.

I revised most of the tactics and can beat it as other factions like USA. But not ECA. Late game is completely unplayable, because of reasons:

-GP strikes. Not much of a problem before, but now when used with Topol M it make your fortress completely worthless.

-In the hand of the AI the Black Bear just ridiculous. Air units are useless unless you have a whole armada. Infantry never get close due to god know how many Msta spam and every kind of tanks that isn't a Manticore got 1 shot and die. It can just evade Howitzers and pushes on, ignoring fire from gun turrets with Stohra. Oh, and PKM Boris make Harriers cry. So much that I stopped using air altogether.

-Dozer hunt. Just DAMN IT. Every freaking time. They just ignore everything and attack the dozers first. This is not a problem for the other 4 factions but for ECA your dozer is the first and for most unit. To actually hold the line for 45 minutes I think I spammed like 30 dozers and it was clearly not enough. You can't play offensive as ECA without ridiculous money. And with your defenses being bombed by AOE attack, your dozer never arrived to rebuild them.......what to do when there is an entire Ursa division of veteran armors heading toward you?

-Yes, I built like 15 Howitzers. And it was clearly not enough. There are just way too many shits, and most of them are just Mstas. My units are inflexible and take forever to build, so no getting close.

-Telecom tower cash rate nerf.

So, aside from playing 999999k money start.......Is there a way?

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 30 Dec 2016, 14:27

[Skitt]

vs the AI?
throw every penny u have at forward layerd defense lines, single layer wont cut it vs this ai like previous.

your goal should be to keep its t2 and t1 structures from being built too long and to obliterate its cc and dozers asap.


eca in pvp.
dont even bother useing eca in 1v1's vs russia/china/usa not unless you have excellent timings with sw use + gp's
or access at match start to 2 oils + a 30k and 60k dock

This post has been edited by Skitt: 30 Dec 2016, 17:29

[Mizo]

This should be moved to the testing section.

Anyways, I see that you are complaining about late game. Ome thing that will slow them down is tech rushing into long range artillery then attempting to snipe as much EFs as you can to slow down their tank production. If they build their tier structures near you, kill em off as well.

This will not only slow them down, but it will also reduce their reward cash that they periodically get, meaning less armies.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 30 Dec 2016, 18:00

[X1Destroy]

That's what I do when I am US or China, but as ECA I don't have anything to bypass the defenses and reach the inner base except Howitzer. And they're not good at this for obvious reasons. The only way is forward with infantry and panzers, mortar tracks and it isn't really effective. And if I wait for cashes, I die in a flood of msta and golem.
On maps like forgotten freedom triple barrack infantry spam works however, but then I killed off the AI at early game completely, lol.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 30 Dec 2016, 18:25

[atmospheric]

As I have already pointed out earlier:
http://forums.swr-productions.com/index.php?showtopic=12297

notwithstanding the said facts above, ECA is a gone case and completely ruined in 1.87 when compared to other factions. Accept it instead of trying to explain time & time again the workarounds and adding micro/macro strategies for it to defend itself! lol You can't win PVE OR PVP (PVP prolly with a couple of exceptions on highly skilled players) without using a cheat.

[Mizo]

PvE has nothing to do with faction capabilities, it's more about my mistake with balancing the AI since it itself cheats. It's not a statement about ECA being underpowered as a faction ( though that's debetable since the design of the faction itself makes it imidietly have a disadvantage in 1v1s, but they're fine in 2v2s).

Any complains about PvE is irrelevant to the balance of the game, and is more of an issue wtih the AI itself. It's still a work in progress, and I hold responsibility for in case it's either too easy or too hard.

Balanced is derrived from generally the PvP scene, and I have a bunch of replays that proves ECA is quiet a capable faction ( Which I might or might not post, depending on the participants of those matches).

[atmospheric]

PvE has nothing to do with faction capabilities, it's more about my mistake with balancing the AI since it itself cheats. It's not a statement about ECA being underpowered as a faction ( though that's debetable since the design of the faction itself makes it imidietly have a disadvantage in 1v1s, but they're fine in 2v2s).

Any complains about PvE is irrelevant to the balance of the game, and is more of an issue wtih the AI itself. It's still a work in progress, and I hold responsibility for in case it's either too easy or too hard.

Balanced is derrived from generally the PvP scene, and I have a bunch of replays that proves ECA is quiet a capable faction ( Which I might or might not post, depending on the participants of those matches).

I did not mean to put the blame on you as you might have thought that about me. I don't even know if it were you or someone else who created this in the first place. All I said and say again is, ECA ai is royally screwed in the 1.87 PB and I do not enjoy playing it (PVE & PVP) as I did in 1.86. Also, in 1.87 ECA & China AI create more spam (PVE) than ever, combined in all the versions of ROTR.

[Mizo]

, ECA ai is royally screwed in the 1.87 PB

I need you to elaborate more about it. Can you tell me where is it screwed? I'd appreicate feedback on it.

Also, in 1.87 ECA & China AI create more spam (PVE) than ever, combined in all the versions of ROTR.

Fun fact though, they really don't spam more in terms of quantity. I just adjusted it to use its units more offensively rather than clogging its base with armies it will never be able to move.


As for the AI, yes I have full responsibility on it, and I do put into consideration of what people comment on regarding it. It's a completely new AI, built from the scratch, and not based on the ZH AI being modified like the previous iterations of it. Since it's completely fresh it's bound to have balance issues / other bugs. Hence why I need everyone to input their impression and feedback on it to average out the difficulity and asserting the next steps into improving it further.

So what's the exact issue(s) with China? What's the exact issue(s) with ECA? What bothers you about them?



This post has been edited by Mizo: 30 Dec 2016, 23:40

[X1Destroy]

ECA AI isn't all that hard to beat due to the crap production speed. The Russian AI on the other hand is nasty, because it can use all of the new units and abilities.

Not an issue in pvp but in pve the Russian AI always destroy US and ECA AI at late game, mostly whenever a blackbear appeared and a nuke was launched. No airfield and the US AI is going to die one way or another.

And whenever I play as ECA, as stated above super late game is ridiculous because money spam is no longer as easy as before. And then the AI got better and even more spammy. For the moment I will use cheat, because while impossibly hard the battle is down right epic even in 1vs1.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 31 Dec 2016, 2:34

[Scud]

Yup, at least against the AI you should start with 25000k... it's not cheating. I mean, the CPU plays with the same rules.

[Lars]

ECA AI isn't all that hard to beat due to the crap production speed. The Russian AI on the other hand is nasty, because it can use all of the new units and abilities.

Not an issue in pvp but in pve the Russian AI always destroy US and ECA AI at late game, mostly whenever a blackbear appeared and a nuke was launched. No airfield and the US AI is going to die one way or another.

And whenever I play as ECA, as stated above super late game is ridiculous because money spam is no longer as easy as before. And then the AI got better and even more spammy. For the moment I will use cheat, because while impossibly hard the battle is down right epic even in 1vs1.

I can vouch for this statement. Hard Russia AI will roll over any other Hard faction (Haven't yet seen vChina) by late game. Played 2 vs 1 with me and Hard USA vs Hard Russia on Battle for Baghdad. and I allowed the match carry on to late game>super late game without much intervention. It took me obliterating their command bunker and suiciding fleets of Tigers to get past the Grumble spam to kill the surviving dozers and THEN destroying the production facilities before the tide could turn for the USA AI. Only reason the ally was alive still was because I was spamming Tigers to defend and taking out the superweapon whenever Russia built it. That game took nearly 2 hours to resolve. (I used Pandora)

[Mizo]

I think by unit design alone, Russian units are superior to other factions especially when the heavy tanks and gunships come into play, hence why it feels like they are stronger than everyone else at that stage. I am not sure how it plays out in the internal though, as ECA and USA Ai has been generally improved.

[X1Destroy]

Agree. Russia is no longer the handicapped faction like it was in 1.7 and the like. Now it is really strong with all the new toys.

ECA have the least changes compared to before. USA got better, but that's only for humans.

[Woody_Sheriff]

Played 2 vs 1 with me and Hard USA vs Hard Russia on Battle for Baghdad.

Battle for Baghdad AI is bugged because city center and airport start position has too little place, making the ai not tier up and place buildings in path of train. Outskirts and desert start positions have bugged defense placement on the other hand. It is not a very good map for AI vs AI matches.

[atmospheric]

ECA AI isn't all that hard to beat due to the crap production speed

Just for the records, I never said that ECA AI cannot be beaten either ways. If yall posts are directed towards mine, then first read and understand mine and then reply if you deem it fit, to be replied to.

[Mizo]

Map issues are out of my scope, would need an experienced Skirmish mapper to do the starting position edits.

[X1Destroy]

I wish that Skitt was there to help. There's some skimish maps that would certainly requires radical changes for the new AI to work. Repositioning the supply just doesn't cut it.

For some reasons his Challenge maps also bugged out on 1.87 too. I hope he's still working on them.

Just for the records, I never said that ECA AI cannot be beaten either ways. If yall posts are directed towards mine, then first read and understand mine and then reply if you deem it fit, to be replied to.

Not directed to you. I just pointed it out as a comparison to the Russian AI. It is so brutal at the moment when super late game is reached. A super late ECA should be able to make counter attacks but things just get even worse for it when fighting against Russian AI wise.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 31 Dec 2016, 16:07

[Mizo]

I'll probably have to layout specific guidelines on making the maps that works well with the AI, probably in the near future some time.

This post has been edited by Mizo: 31 Dec 2016, 19:56

[Rohan]

The issue with the matchup generally lies with shotra golems, hinds and Blackbears. The matchup is impossible to win as ECA, I have tried and got curbstomped 10 times.

[X1Destroy]

Old Golem was not a problem, but the current ones with railgun just blast everything to oblivion. I'd rather them have EXPLOSION damage type instead of that huge increase in range and raw damage. And more over, the AI builds way too many Mstas. The more defenses you have the more it will send them to you.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 31 Dec 2016, 20:57

[{Lads}RikerZZZ]

Seriously, get good with your mines and Howie's and this will stop being an issue.

[X1Destroy]

Did you bother to read anything?

15 howitzers didn't do shit. Howitzers don't stop mass productions, neither can it harrass anything nor kill the topol. It just delays the inevitable. The attack waves come many times faster than they can ever reload.

Oh, and Sentinels are immuned to mines, good luck.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 31 Dec 2016, 22:15

[{Lads}RikerZZZ]

Sents are not immune to mole mines/pioneer mines, theyre only immune to basic mines.
Also howies arent for killing tanks, theyre for killing artillery. So use them to counter the mstas so you can focus your defence on the heavy AT. Grenadiers in the new bunkers are your best friend for dealing with the sents and other fancy tanks so add in the new ammo bunkers pooping out mines + some cheeky mole minelayers and youre set

[X1Destroy]

Yes they were for Mstas. And there were too many Mstas. I've seen base expansions with 2 WFs near me building Mstas too and I just keep shooting them.

Practically all infantry based defenses become obsoleted at super late game, simply because nobody can wait for the men to come out and put them in. That only doable at the earliest stage.

And there's a nuke, a FOAB every 5 minutes. Got a big hole and you're dead than ever.

As for mole they're treated as artillery and have the biggest target priority value, thus will always be targeted by Goliath Hinds first before anything elses. They mostly die before they can do a second mining. A waste of money if anything.

[M.P]

I'd rather them have EXPLOSION damage type instead of that huge increase in range and raw damage.

Yes please, I want to blow up infantry with that cannon (EXPLOSION is effective vs Everything, While ARMOR_PIERCING, the current damage type, is only effective against Armor and Structures)