Behind the Bullet: Episode 1: Aleksandr's Eletric gun., Revised and remade! Options

[Serialkillerwhal...]

Tesla Coils, we've all seen them in movies or video games, a supposed "Lightning Gun" invented by the Serbian-American scientist Nikola Tesla was passed over as a failure, only for another man, Russian Scientist Nikita Ivanovich Aleksandr nearly 100 years later, to finish it, Bringing this "Death ray" from dream to reality.

But just how did he do it? Today, on Behind the Bullet, we will be examining the process in which this new Tesla coil would hurl lightning at it's targets.

The Tesla coil operates by first "Spinning up" it's coils as a large fan sucks in massive quantities of air, which is stored under high pressure. The container is then given a positive charge by removing all of it's electrons, at which point the electrons within the stored air move into the metal container, repeating several times in the span of a few seconds, this deprives the air of almost all it's electrons, giving it an extreme positive charge.
The air is then fired out in a magnetic charged web-like "Shell" whose charge forces the charged air to stay inside although the energy of it decreases over time and allows some of the charged air to escape.

On impact with it's target, the shell disperses completely and the air spreads around it's target, giving it a large positive charge. The Tesla coil then builds an Negative charge within it's coil, It is this charge that then "Jumps" to it's target, electrocuting unprotected infantry and seriously damaging vehicles.

There are two smaller variants of this device, the Tank-mounted version and an even smaller Man-portable one often used by Aleksandr's famed shock troopers.
The vehicle variant has a separate series of vents mounted around the vehicle to gather air instead and the man-portal cannon, fires a smaller charge along a "Conduit" created by constantly blasted positively charged air. This variation is extremely lower-power and cannot seriously damage vehicles, but the constant charge often causes damage to the electronics inside them, shutting them down and making them easy prey for the Shock Trooper's Allies or more commonly, other shock troopers with their "Rocket-Rifles".

This post has been edited by Serialkillerwhale: 12 Mar 2013, 11:33

[__CrUsHeR]

I like your idea, very interesting and explanatory, however the supposed "death ray" according to my research would be another Tesla invention.

[Serialkillerwhal...]

Ahhh yes, Thanks, editing.

[Genmotty]

The Tesla coil operates by first "Spinning up" it's coils as a large fan sucks in massive quantities of air, which is stored under high pressure. The container is then given a positive charge by removing all of it's electrons, at which point the electrons within the stored air move into the metal container, repeating several times in the span of a few seconds, this deprives the air of almost all it's electrons, giving it an extreme positive charge.
The air is then fired out in a magnetic charged web-like "Shell" whose charge forces the charged air to stay inside although the energy of it decreases over time and allows some of the charged air to escape.

On impact with it's target, the shell disperses completely and the air spreads around it's target, giving it a large positive charge. The Tesla coil then builds an Negative charge within it's coil, It is this charge that then "Jumps" to it's target, electrocuting unprotected infantry and seriously damaging vehicles.

I strongly doubt the physics of this.


A Telsa Coil in reality works by creating a high voltage electric field, I think you are confusing yourself with a Van de Graaf Generator which creates static electricity (i.e. an accumulation of charge). So forgive my pedantic, but even on this basic notion we are 'not formally correct'.


The 'lightening' that we associate with Telsa Coil in fiction and reality is related to the dielectric breakdown of the medium, in this case air, which allows partial ionisation, of the gas, this ionised gas is then free to move in the high voltage electric field created by the coil, and so creates the familiar 'arcs of electricity' that we see. In fact, high voltage electric fields are very safe, it's not particularly disruptive to biology. However, high currents, that is, 'the rate of electrical charge flow' are potentially destructive, because electric charge is directly the electrical energy.

When a very large electric field is created, there is more partial ionisation of the gas, more ionisation, gives more charge to be moved about in the electric field. The problem here on earth is that the diaeletric breakdown of air, is fairly 'low' meaning that before we can get to ultra high voltages, the air is ionised and electrical energy trapped in the field is dissipated into the air. The ground on the otherhand isn't so 'low', and hence can act as an 'infinite sink' compared to air.

This is the same reason why lightening commonly strikes to ground, electrical charge prefers to disapate into this 'inifinit sink' than the air.

In the process, the energy stored in the high voltage field is transferred by the arc of plasma into the earth, dropping the potential and lowering the entire systems energy state.



In principle, a Tesla Coil needs non of this 'pesudo-scientific crap' to be a weapon system. it just need to create a high voltage field, which it does anyhow, and it needs to direct this through an arc into a target, that is connected to the ground, and/or some other energy sink. This is the tricky business, but not that tricky.

You've seen how a Taser does it. Well, that's how easy it is to do!

If batteries can stun a man, well...what can a building size Tesla coil do to a tank?




Why would it 'spin up?'....It's a Game, live with it. For all we know it uses centrifugal force to throw a small discus spool of wire at the target to act as an initial conductor to make the connection, a bit like a disc thrower in clay pigeon shooting or strimmer wire.

Why the three 'nodes'?....It's a Game, live with it. Perhaps a tetrahedron shape is a fairly efficient way of making a strong electric field? More than one big generator gives it ability to get damaged and still work? etc. etc.


How does the man portable one work then? ...Well it can't, it would be forever arcing to the ground, you can't stop that from happening. Suspend your disbelief, or you'll get rushed...


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Storing ionised air? or 'Cation Air' not very practical, its going to interact with your machine considerably 'eroding' it, you've also essentially created radioactive gas that will also damage tissue and similar. More of a low temperature *ahem* plasma gun *ahem* than an 'electricity gun'. Which has all the problems of trying to create a magnetic bottle to hold it...

...I mean where is the 'shell projector' on the game model eh? If the air is all +ve-ly charged then it's going to be under immense electro static pressure to expand...like a bomb....so why aren't we seeing an electrical *ahem* explosion *ahem* on contact?

It's just odd, clunky, and doesn't really withstand some of the more realistic/scientific reasoning that we throw at it.




Much better to just handwave the ROTR Tesla Coil as a super taser that can zap tanks as well as people.




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Like when I helped correct the Wotan description, it's not about being asking 'how it is achieved' it's just better than we don't include things that are factually incorrect. After-all, we don't know how say an atomic bomb works in detail say, but we would know it is wrong to say that an atomic bomb is conventional explosives that have been compressed into an incredibly dense 'super-xplosive'....or that a Propaganda Tower heals troops by sending out sound waves that knit tissue or tank armour together giving super healing.

It's just a bit wonky, better just to sweep it under the rug and make sure nothing is overtly wrong or doesn't make a lot of sense.


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On the other hand it's a fun academic exercise to try and work out how something like this might work in context...Just if we can't, don't bother (i.e. the Propaganda Tower scenario, just don't even go there!)



EDIT: I might add, a link to 'the science of particle beam weapons!' just for general reading;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam_weapon

This post has been edited by Genmotty: 12 Mar 2013, 15:21

[Svea Rike]

Like when I helped correct the Wotan description, it's not about being asking 'how it is achieved' it's just better than we don't include things that are factually incorrect. After-all, we don't know how say an atomic bomb works in detail say, but we would know it is wrong to say that an atomic bomb is conventional explosives that have been compressed into an incredibly dense 'super-xplosive'....or that a Propaganda Tower heals troops by sending out sound waves that knit tissue or tank armour together giving super healing.

It's just a bit wonky, better just to sweep it under the rug and make sure nothing is overtly wrong or doesn't make a lot of sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam_weapon

Wonky may be, but I believe most of the technology in the game can be explained. If they don't know how an a-bomb works, how did they build it? They're like: "Oh let's just put some shiz together and see what happens!"

[Joe Kidd]

My brain hurts

It shoots electricity, done.

[tgn89]

Hey nice one serial better than the original but please dont start a flame war here

[CoLT]

I don't believe this thread belongs here.

But anyway, to put all of this simply, your explanation cannot work simply because electricity is capable of moving in any direction provided that there is no active resistance to its path. Assume that the surrounding air has a resistance value of 5. A conducting object such as metal would then be a resistance value of 3. Therefore, electricity would appear to take preference to traveling along the metal instead.

If all resistances are equal, electricity would dissipate all directions evenly. We don't see thing happening because, in reality, there is always something in the environment that provides a better conductor. Even lightning would not strike the ground unless there is a negative(?) charge created in the air that provides the pathway to the ground.

Bottom line is, electricity can only appear to jump to the target if there is a pathway created between the emitter and the receiver.

[Col._Sandfurz]

@Serialkillerwhale:
I like the idea, but as a student of electrical engineering I would suggest you to start with a more realistic thing.. like the avengers laser cannon or drones or the Pandora. That is something that can be explained without sounding stupid. This is not an insult!
Tesla weapons are the most unrealistic stuff in the C&C series (besides crono technology, but thats not in ROTR)
You (or anything else) can NEVER explain it in any way that would be only half realistic.
If a lightnig from a tesla weapon could be generated, e.g. be "shot" onto a target, it would not cause any significant destruction for the vehicle. As pretty much all millitary vehicles have a chassis of metal and a good connection to the ground, the current would flow right into the ground. You could observe this when a lightning hits a car. It will work like a Faraday cage and the passengers and everything else inside (motor, fuel, weapons etc.) would be absolutely safe (especialy inside a tank). All you would see is the entry and exit holes of the current which would create some burn holes as the air is techically a plasma (30.000 °C hot) where the current flows. Different story with humans being hit by such a discharge, they would burn.

I find those weapons highly ridicolous and usualy never use the Tesal weapons unlock; cause they make my head want to hit the desk.

Anyway, I understand why the devs brought them in ROTR, cause they like bringing old CnC stuff into their mod and thats okay for me.

[X1Destroy]

If there's anything that need an explanation in my opinion, that would be the Aurora bomber.

The B2 and Blackjack, Backfire can be shot down while in mid air. But the Aurora is said to fly at a very fast speed, to the point of being uninterceptable with any kind of weapons except nuclear or EMP attacks. And it isn't stealth to begin with.

There was also that Hypersonic Aurora, in Shockwave.

I highly doubt there would be anyone that can pilot this monster and still alive.

Tesla coil is unexplainable with the logic from real life since the way it's work is completely different.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 12 Mar 2013, 20:14

[Serialkillerwhal...]

the Tesla coil actually works by causing electric arcs.
The main problem is rather simple.

It needs a target.
The whole ionized air thing gives it a series of positive charges to go along. It's more or less just artificial lightning at this point.
Anywho, i'm starting with the ones that seem the most "Out there" and moving to more realistic.

[Cobretti]

According to the Aurora's concept art, it does indeed incorporate stealth features like the F-22 or F-35. Also note the pilot's line "radar won't pick us up!" The rumored Aurora spyplane, which we can assume the F/B-40 Aurora is based on, allegedly could reach speeds in excess of Mach 5. The Hypersonic version used by the Airforce & US Boss Generals would probably have a top speed around Mach 6 or so.

As for the Tesla coil, perhaps it uses a negatively charged electrolaser to direct a positively charged current like certain varieties of taser?

[Serialkillerwhal...]

There's a problem with that.

The lightning you see, is electrons moving. If it was positively charged, the lightning would start from the target.

[TheCeLL]

I like it, SerialKillerWhale. Very scientific, (or at least, scientific-sounding. I don't really care if it doesn't work that way, as long as it SOUNDS scientific )

[Col._Sandfurz]

There's a problem with that.

The lightning you see, is electrons moving. If it was positively charged, the lightning would start from the target.

Of course you can create an artificial lightning, that is not the problem..

The problem here is:
1. You can NOT damage a vehicle (especially a tank or IFV) with a metalic body shell as this metal would work like a Faraday cage. Nothing would happen, besides some jamming of radios and a light flash that would blind the driver. Maybe the radios will be harmed as the very high slew rate of 7000 Ampere/µsec will cause a really strong inducted current, possibly harming electrical divices not only in close vicitiny.
2. You can not reliably create a lightning arc across this distances (exceding tank guns) and then hit a speciffic target (vehicle, soldier, etc.)

I do not want to compromise you, I like your idea of scientificaly explaining the technology of ROTR.
But explaining tesla weapons is impossible, I would leave that away as well as the healing and repairing effect of propaganda and the GPS scrambler making armies invisible..

[Serialkillerwhal...]

1. The sheer electrical energy will melt it, That's why it's so ineffective compared to use on infantry.
2. Read the whole kablam about positively charged air, it's more or less giving the electrons a reason to want to go there, and a means to do it (Raw power).

[Karpet]

Of course you can create an artificial lightning, that is not the problem..

The problem here is:
1. You can NOT damage a vehicle (especially a tank or IFV) with a metalic body shell as this metal would work like a Faraday cage. Nothing would happen, besides some jamming of radios and a light flash that would blind the driver. Maybe the radios will be harmed as the very high slew rate of 7000 Ampere/µsec will cause a really strong inducted current, possibly harming electrical divices not only in close vicitiny.
2. You can not reliably create a lightning arc across this distances (exceding tank guns) and then hit a speciffic target (vehicle, soldier, etc.)

I do not want to compromise you, I like your idea of scientificaly explaining the technology of ROTR.
But explaining tesla weapons is impossible, I would leave that away as well as the healing and repairing effect of propaganda and the GPS scrambler making armies invisible..

I like to explain propaganda by saying that the propaganda encourages tanks to repair themselves in battle and that infantry get an adrenaline rush, and they also heal themselves.

[Col._Sandfurz]

Again, read my previous posts!

1. The sheer electrical energy will melt it, That's why it's so ineffective compared to use on infantry.

No, thats wrong.
I can only repeat myself, if someone sits in a standart imobile car and that car gets hit by a "natural" lightning (and that natural lightning WILL have waaaay more energy than even the static Tesla Coil) then this person -is- safe! Very few melting metal..
All the current will imideately flow into the ground. Especially a tank has very much metal and you would need a lot of energy to melt trough it. Also the electrical resistivity of steel is 0.1 to 0.2 Ω·mm^2/m what means that it is a good conductor (copper is "only" ~10 times better). This means that the current will flow through it with littel resistance and thus not giving that much energy in form of heat into the material. Absolutely no chance of melting 30cm of steel + (eventualy isolating) special armor (Chobham etc.) with a electrical discharge that leasts about 0,1 sec.

However this would only apply to the Tesla Coil defence structure, as this one -is- capable of destroying tanks. The mobile ones are bad against tanks, you are right. But they should also be very bad against all vehicles with a metal hull.
And of course, a human would die instantly, IF hit by a lightning bolt!

2. Read the whole kablam about positively charged air, it's more or less giving the electrons a reason to want to go there, and a means to do it (Raw power).

You could generate a path of ionised air throug which the current will flow, but afaik this is very unstable.. And it only works for short distances. To bypass a long gap of air, even if it is ionized, a huge voltage is needed and thus increasing the chance of a breakdown right at the coil itself (especially for the portable ones for Shocktroopers, but also for the Tesla Tanks if charged in a city near a metalic street sign ).
Chances are high that the current who flows throug the channel of ionized air will fragemntate and go into the greound before reaching the target. Also the dielectrical strenth of air will sink rapidly if it rains. This weapon would be useless in rainy and foggy weather as the lightning bolt would run into the ground long before reaching the target.

And not to mention the energy needed to power such a direct energy weapon. Mankind has nothing suitable for that task.. but maybe that will change in the future, idk.

This post has been edited by Col._Sandfurz: 13 Mar 2013, 19:11

[__CrUsHeR]

( ) Serialkillerwhalle theory seems to be the coolest and easy to understand, so it must be right.

( ) The Col._Sandfurz theory is apparently scientific, although I have not understood anything, so it must be right.

(x) Neither of them is right, I'm increasingly less understanding it.

NOTE: only a joke from someone who does not understand almost nothing about principles of physics guys.

[MARS]

Personally, I like to imagine that Tesla weapons don't actually destroy tanks, but cause internal fuel/ammunition cook-offs. It's still not ideal but it makes more sense than 'lightning strikes giant faraday cage until it explodes'.

[Genmotty]

I like to explain propaganda by...

...saying it's 'A Game'.

There is a lot of difference between tactically ignoring unrealistic elements of a game and just 'going with it', than 'trying to justify' something that isn't (probably) physically possible in the first place. Indeed, if in trying to justify something it makes even less sense. Stop! Don't bother, you just making the initial unrealistic element even more so!

I can't remember if there is a rule that says; "Don't complain about realism; Why? because it's a fictional game. Ergo fictional elements included." because that would get rid of most inane questions about realism coming from people. At the end of the day here is the simple answer for people like __CrUsHeR;


Big frickin' tank taser...but set to kill rather than stun.

[__CrUsHeR]

Well there are many things that can have a plausible explanation, however in the case of a game that aims to entertain people and not revolutionize the physical, the Serialkillerwhalle explantion about Tesla and his inventions are already from good size, I believe that the Westwood created the technology "Tesla" for the RA thinking about what we know about Tesla's inventions, they probably would not have created a theory behind all of this that can be explained.

I was satirizing a bit the topic that is sometimes funny to see people trying to be based on complex theories to explain things clearly fictional that contradict the principles of science.

[Karpet]

...saying it's 'A Game'.

There is a lot of difference between tactically ignoring unrealistic elements of a game and just 'going with it', than 'trying to justify' something that isn't (probably) physically possible in the first place. Indeed, if in trying to justify something it makes even less sense. Stop! Don't bother, you just making the initial unrealistic element even more so!

I can't remember if there is a rule that says; "Don't complain about realism; Why? because it's a fictional game. Ergo fictional elements included." because that would get rid of most inane questions about realism coming from people. At the end of the day here is the simple answer for people like __CrUsHeR;


Big frickin' tank taser...but set to kill rather than stun.

I'm not complaining.

[Serialkillerwhal...]

Can we call this Semi-Canon?

[Genmotty]

I wouldn't.

It's complete rubbish and thus detracts from the game lore because it is so factually incorrect, and may generate flak from anybody will a low level scientific background far into the future. In so doing lower the mods credibility for quality content if it is given sanction in any form.


I might suggest if you want to stick with 'behind the bullet' keep it to things that can be plausibly explained, where it 'physically "dafuq"' just leave it alone, you're just adding more 'dafuq' that will fuel the firestorm.