Higher education, How good actually is it? Options

[3rdShockArmy]

Don't get me wrong. This is a question for everyone, because any regular person can get a university diploma. What I absolutely hate is when people with a higher education are looking down at anyone without one. I worked at various places, with various people and I must say that, despite many of my University colleagues are smart and educated, there are some that are not so intelligent, but are very, very, lets say snobish and downright disgusting towards others who are not of their "superior status". I met so many very smart and largely self-educated people, who are both better persons and more capable than any of my completely out of touch colleagues (excluding the normal majority of my University colleagues). Those people are completely closed in their little worlds and consider everyone else to be idiots. Most of them have extremely liberal point of view, but talking to them left a strong impression that they're like that just because it's an "up-to-date" opinion, mostly coming from similar backgrounds from Western Universities and academic circles. What do you think? Does higher education needs a serious reform? The one that will bring back all those people to reality and make them serve the interests of the community as a whole, rather than have them pretending to be the next step of the new hive-like evolution, in which they'll be the "Queen".

This post has been edited by 3rdShockArmy: 9 Oct 2015, 21:48

[Svea Rike]

Higher education, as in universities and colleges, are fine by me. The people you encounter are not the product of the university, but of their own self-esteem that shoot their own opinion sky-high about themselves. Many think that just by going to a university they are better than everyone else - which has some basis in reality since despite what the internet says, with a college degree you can indeed get better jobs. Heck, some jobs require at least one degree to get it. But to say that you can't score big in life without college is stupid; many businessmen, technologists and more have become world-famous for their things without ever going to college.

[Maelstrom]

Higher diploma doesn't mean good manners. I wanted to go to the University, but I passed the 2 first years doing another diploma, which allowed me to join a 3rd year of Computer Science University.
It has appeared very clearly that people following that way (I wasn't the only one) were hated. Even teachers came in our classes to discourage us to go to 3rd University year. But at the end, our formation was clearly better in practical stuff (programming, design...) than the other students, who barely saw a keyboard in 2 years.

I gave up University, and now I have another diploma, which is way more interesting.

I don't know if it was jealousy or anything. But being bullied just because I had a different -but equivalent !- education was really a terrible experience.

I don't think, and I certainly don't hope, that every university produces such bad behaviours. But in my case, I have to disagree with you Svea.

[John william]

Greater diploma or degree will not mean excellent good manners. I want to to visit to your University or college, yet My partner and i approved the 2 primary several years undertaking yet another diploma or degree, which usually helped us to participate any finally 12 months of Laptop or computer Science University or college.

[3rdShockArmy]

I'm not talking only about the manners. The thing is that many of those people are in no way superior to those without a University degree. On the other hand, they are far better in theoretical stuff, but are quite limited in implementation. And as far as I'm concerned, really intelligent people are good in using their knowledge practically. Anyone can teach, criticize or just rant into oblivion, but only a truly smart person will act, not just speak. I had a few arguments with some of my colleagues and when they started that old story how I'm a troll if I don't think like they do, a few reasonable arguments made them shut up. In other words, they think they have some form of higher ground compared to you, based on a piece of paper. And when you disagree, and they are out of any reasonable response, they start accusing you of "not thinking like them", because you know, their opinion is the right one, regardless of the fact that you shattered that opinion to pieces.
I remember one time, when we were in forest, looking for some mushrooms, and there was this old woman, with an archaic accent, to whom some of my "superior" colleagues almost laughed. She was our guide and when we had a project in which we were supposed to get some fungi and when one of the girls started BSing about one particular specie, the old woman said: "No, that one's poisonous!", the girl was like all important and snobish, trying to show how much "smarter, cooler and more educated" than our guide. It wasn't until one of our professors came and sided with the old woman, because the mushroom was indeed poisonous. The thing is that, you should respect other people, regardless of their status, educational or otherwise, because they might be better than you think. And if they aren't, so what? I'm still certain that the old lady knows about mushrooms way more than I do, despite the fact that I'm an ecologist. I could tell here anything about it, ranging from the Latin name to the type of micelia, but if I was to find a difference between some rare types out there in the woods, than not even I would choose myself over that old lady.

This post has been edited by 3rdShockArmy: 10 Oct 2015, 12:52

[Hecthor Doomhamm...]

The thing I notice is: Higher education and diploma's or degrees don't mean anything if you can't find a job in your study field.

Look at my sister: Higher level College (HBO) Entertainment sciences (stuff like organizing events, travel agencies etc) and it's useless. She works as a administrator at a cleaning service.

My best buddy: Master's degree archaeology specialized in Greek and Roman archaeology, now teaches English as second language in the business world in Spain because he couldn't get a proper job for the thing he spent 8 years in university

I myself: MBO (mid level College) lvl 4 (highest possibility for that level) Management Transports & logistics with diploma for starting my own company. Great papers, really, but I lack the ambition to start / run my own company and I lack the patience to sit in an office as like a transport or distribution planner, and while I currently work in Logistics, it is far below my education level simply because I can't get a job that is somewhere in between my degree and where I am now.

And here in holland at least, there are countless examples of education papers having absolutely no meaning and value compared to what people work as. if they work at all.

[3rdShockArmy]

It's definitely not just a Dutch problem. It's here in Serbia as well. Anywhere, actually. The thing is that everyone are trying to get a high education degree, because no-one wants to do some heavy lifting, literally and metaphorically. That leaves a big hole in the regular jobs market and a big overflow in higher-end jobs. At one moment, well-trained workers will become a deficitary group and might even get some prestige and definitely better pay, than what they have now. I know this, because I'm in lumber business. My lumber work gets me three times more money, than a potential job as an ecologist with a University degree. Ah, the damn lumbering.

This post has been edited by 3rdShockArmy: 10 Oct 2015, 15:01

[Basilisx]

Sounds like you got some confrontations with elitists. Right now I'm working on my Masterthesis in electrical engineering and I know that competition begins in university. You have the physicists and engineers looking down on the economics for their lack of mathematics, you have the arts(philology, art history, pedagogics and the likes) that in the eyes of many will not bring you far in life and get mocked a lot therefore by any other field of study, heck even from non-academics. Even students going to be teachers count as students that were not qualified for a proper degree.

Sure you might getting tired of the BS of your colleagues, but I think the best thing you can do is deal with it. There will always be people thinking they are better than you, because of their education or because their parents are richer than yours ( had to deal with such a-holes in elementary school), but that should not put you down. It is not limited to university and education but life.
You know about your qualities and that you are better than them.

In Germany we have a word for such people: Fachidiot. Internet translators tell me that nerd would describe it the best but this word does not cut it for me, because nerd is somehow cultural acceptable as lifestyle, too. Let me descibe it this way: as a Fachidiot you might be an expert in your field, you might be really good and know what you are talking about, but everywhere else you are an idiot. Those people confuse education with training, and this leads to arrogance. They need it to put others down to protect their own inferiority and flaws in the hope that nobody will critizise or attack them. So basically there is just a lot of hot air in these people and if you manage to outsmart them on their field, what else is left for them ?

[3rdShockArmy]

Basilisx, bro, I agree with every single word, with the exception that I don't feel bad because of these people, because they don't affect me directly. They are the same or a bit higher education than me. I have doctors and engineers for friends and they are good people and excell at what they do. My problem is that I also have many other friends who are great people and pretty good at what they do, but they don't have University degree. It is those people who are looked down at by Fachidiots (excellent word BTW). And many of them are not smarter than a regular guy. But they simply like to pick on other people, because, as you said, it's the only way they can feel good. And many of my friends with no degree just don't give a damn. I wouldn't either, but when I look at it from the third persons' perspective, it seems so disgusting to a point I'd punch the SOB. Of course, I never do that, but still. Anyway, as I said, you're completely right.

[Basilisx]

Allright, I see. I first thought it was a personal problem, good to hear that it does not concern you.

They don't make you sad, but as you said in your last sentence, you are disgusted by them to a point that you want to punch them in the face in your thoughts. Keep calm, they are not worth to waste your breath on them.

I'm glad that I could contribute something worth to your topic. In that way, cheers Bro

[3rdShockArmy]

You certainly did. Thanks. Cheers to you. Again.

[ComradeCrimson]

If you land a job and compare payment rates with a higher degree of education with a masters or even just a diploma in something (or journeyman status in trades) you will receive better pay than your colleagues. Even if they have worked that very same job as you are doing for over 20 years.


Get education if you can if you're going into a specific, profitable field. I got journeyman status for welding and I did that for a few years, but I also learned chroming and construction even though I never went to tradeschool or university for it.

Now im working security, but even so. It's worth it if you know what you want to apply in and know that you can get it. That's why I say plan your university well, take a year in general studies or wait a bit till you know what you want to do so you know what you want to take instead of bumming out of a course.

[chemisthypnos]

I don't think that higher education needs reform with respect to the concept of elitism. Elitism is a personal problem and an education for those people only serves as a catalyst for it to grow. (Although I do think that higher education and education in general needs major reform.) Also, just saying, there is a term that can be used to describe fools who think that they know everything there is to know about everything (but really don't) and attempt to degrade you for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I think that whether you go for a university degree or not is very dependant on your major. You should compare the end-career salary of your major to the opportunity cost of say working a job instead of going to college. So: (I.E.) If I want to get a Ph.D in art and I want to become an artist, I will be making an average of 44,380 USD. (Assuming I can find a job!) I will be spending about 10 yrs in college in total, and my opportunity cost would be not going to college and say going for a minimum wage job. I would find that in 10 years, with a minimum wage salary of 8.75/hr here in the U.S. (specifically New York) I would have about 17,000 per year. So after 10 yrs, I will have made about 170,000 USD and this is assuming that I, for some reason, have never recieved a promotion in my job up to this point. Another important thing to note is that I will not have any massive student loans to pay down if I go with the minimum wage job instead of the art degree.

In summary, I think that you should balance what you love with what will yield a rewarding lifestyle for you. Don't let anyone look down on you just because they have a higher degree.

[ComradeCrimson]

I don't think that higher education needs reform with respect to the concept of elitism. Elitism is a personal problem and an education for those people only serves as a catalyst for it to grow. (Although I do think that higher education and education in general needs major reform.) Also, just saying, there is a term that can be used to describe fools who think that they know everything there is to know about everything (but really don't) and attempt to degrade you for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I think that whether you go for a university degree or not is very dependant on your major. You should compare the end-career salary of your major to the opportunity cost of say working a job instead of going to college. So: (I.E.) If I want to get a Ph.D in art and I want to become an artist, I will be making an average of 44,380 USD. (Assuming I can find a job!) I will be spending about 10 yrs in college in total, and my opportunity cost would be not going to college and say going for a minimum wage job. I would find that in 10 years, with a minimum wage salary of 8.75/hr here in the U.S. (specifically New York) I would have about 17,000 per year. So after 10 yrs, I will have made about 170,000 USD and this is assuming that I, for some reason, have never recieved a promotion in my job up to this point. Another important thing to note is that I will not have any massive student loans to pay down if I go with the minimum wage job instead of the art degree.

In summary, I think that you should balance what you love with what will yield a rewarding lifestyle for you. Don't let anyone look down on you just because they have a higher degree.

As a counter argument to what you just said, by the way to be a devil's advocate-

Even if you are working a minimum wage job it is not guaranteed you will be given consistent hours, nor even be able to keep said job. People get laid off all the time merely because companies cannot pay their workers, and this is especially true of minimum wage jobs such as retail who often find themselves in a prickly situation of having overhired people after winter holidays.

Not to mention, depending on where you live income tax can be rather significant and add in costs of living... sometimes; if you can get the chance for university and know that you can get application for it afterwards (Yes, including Art!) that it can be worth it. Because the vast majority of that income you'd have been making at that minimum wage job would be yearly and its not consistent when you factor in weeks you may have less hours or cases where you may even be unemployed or simply not paid due to vacations or whatever.

If you got the chance to advance your education and thus get better paying jobs, the better. That said don't risk it all out on that and find yourself abandoning jobs on a whim- it looks poor on your resume if you only work jobs for a few months (or even less!) job after job. It's better to work at a place for about a year or at least half a year, as it shows that you're both reliable and employers will go, "Alright, this person seems pretty stable."

Typically after university with a good solid degree in something it'll take a few years/half a decade to typically pay it back. So it's an investment with a lot of money to sink in but once you do land a job and start paying off loans you eventually start to profit considerably; such as with medical school and getting a doctorate with something in the health industry (even in places with public, proper healthcare like Canada) where it'll be horrifically expensive unless you got a considerable amount of scholarships/or you're lucky enough to have wealthy parents or state provided post secondary education. But eventually like any good investment it pays for itself down the road after some initial pain.

Just again, be certain if you want to be working in that field. A person working a job that they hate thoroughly can lead to a lot of mental issues and no amount of money can fix an unsound mind.

[chemisthypnos]

As a counter argument to what you just said, by the way to be a devil's advocate-

Even if you are working a minimum wage job it is not guaranteed you will be given consistent hours, nor even be able to keep said job. People get laid off all the time merely because companies cannot pay their workers, and this is especially true of minimum wage jobs such as retail who often find themselves in a prickly situation of having overhired people after winter holidays.

Not to mention, depending on where you live income tax can be rather significant and add in costs of living... sometimes; if you can get the chance for university and know that you can get application for it afterwards (Yes, including Art!) that it can be worth it. Because the vast majority of that income you'd have been making at that minimum wage job would be yearly and its not consistent when you factor in weeks you may have less hours or cases where you may even be unemployed or simply not paid due to vacations or whatever.

If you got the chance to advance your education and thus get better paying jobs, the better. That said don't risk it all out on that and find yourself abandoning jobs on a whim- it looks poor on your resume if you only work jobs for a few months (or even less!) job after job. It's better to work at a place for about a year or at least half a year, as it shows that you're both reliable and employers will go, "Alright, this person seems pretty stable."

Typically after university with a good solid degree in something it'll take a few years/half a decade to typically pay it back. So it's an investment with a lot of money to sink in but once you do land a job and start paying off loans you eventually start to profit considerably; such as with medical school and getting a doctorate with something in the health industry (even in places with public, proper healthcare like Canada) where it'll be horrifically expensive unless you got a considerable amount of scholarships/or you're lucky enough to have wealthy parents or state provided post secondary education. But eventually like any good investment it pays for itself down the road after some initial pain.

Just again, be certain if you want to be working in that field. A person working a job that they hate thoroughly can lead to a lot of mental issues and no amount of money can fix an unsound mind.

You made some very good points in your argument, but I disagree with some that were mentioned. It is true that in minumum wage jobs- layoffs can be quite prevalent. It is also true that you may or may not recieve constant hours or even have the same job two months from that point, but I should note that the argument that I was posing was within the purview of an other things equal assumption (basically everything remains relatively constant). It can, however, also be mentioned that employment for artists is not terrific these days either. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/arts-and-design/cra...ine-artists.htm About half of artists are self- employed. Additionally, the employment could, hypothetically, be improved by having two minimum- wage jobs instead of one.

I think that advancing your education is a good idea depending on what major you go into. The model that I gave was a very simple one. Suppose that instead of weighing a minimum wage lifestyle against an artist's lifestyle, you are weighing a chef's lifestyle against an artist's lifestyle. Much like a minimum wage approach- a college degree is not exclusively required. http://www1.salary.com/Executive-Chef-Salary.html and http://study.com/how_to_become_a_chef.html My uncle was, in fact a chef for many years, and he only has a high school diploma and made about 70k USD per year. The degree that you choose in college should reflect the lifestyle that you want, and I think that said individual should choose wisely regarding how they want to live and what they want to do. I agree with you that people should NOT go into jobs that they hate for the money. Peace of mind is possibly more important than monetary value.

I think that the time it will take to pay down the debt that you will probably have from your degree varies on which university that you went to. If you choose to go to an ivy league school for your degree, I assure you that the average person will not be able to pay it down in about five years. Even if you go to a very good university, the costs can be quite large. My mother, for instance, went to NYU (New York University) for a B.A. in performing arts, and was only able to pay off her student debt in her 40's.

If you go for a degree in medicine or another, high- paying degree, you will profit in the long-run. However, if you go for a degree in art-you may strugle more.

This post has been edited by chemisthypnos: 27 Nov 2015, 20:52

[The General]

Don't get me wrong. This is a question for everyone, because any regular person can get a university diploma. What I absolutely hate is when people with a higher education are looking down at anyone without one. I worked at various places, with various people and I must say that, despite many of my University colleagues are smart and educated, there are some that are not so intelligent, but are very, very, lets say snobish and downright disgusting towards others who are not of their "superior status". I met so many very smart and largely self-educated people, who are both better persons and more capable than any of my completely out of touch colleagues (excluding the normal majority of my University colleagues). Those people are completely closed in their little worlds and consider everyone else to be idiots. Most of them have extremely liberal point of view, but talking to them left a strong impression that they're like that just because it's an "up-to-date" opinion, mostly coming from similar backgrounds from Western Universities and academic circles. What do you think? Does higher education needs a serious reform? The one that will bring back all those people to reality and make them serve the interests of the community as a whole, rather than have them pretending to be the next step of the new hive-like evolution, in which they'll be the "Queen".

I'll have to limit myself to Serbia because i'm not that well informed about other countries(excluding two or three, but i still don't think i know enough about them to comment).
Vast majority of people go to Universities only to get a diploma, not to learn. I mean, getting a diploma is one of the most important reasons to go and "upgrade" your education level, but in a country like Serbia, getting a diploma won't mean you'll get a better job. So i'm sorry if i will offend someone for saying: going to a University only because you want to get a better job in Serbia is idiotic. Our education system neads a serious makeover, but i am afraid they will make it even worse.
Some people will always think they are better than others, so i don't think we'll ever be able to fix that. Even students will look down on some other students that study the same thing, in their own generation, especialy if they're not "mainstreem".
When you are talking with someone who speaks from a "mainstream" perspective(eg. liberalism), they will assume you are an idiot if you don't agree with some fundamental dogmas of the idea they are following. From my own expirience, many of them usualy don't think and simply quote other people. When you push them out of their comfort zone, they will try to get out of the coversation with baseless attack on your view(eg. "your ideology is soooo yesterday's news").
So i don't see much diference between two students of opposite views(eg. capitalism vs communism) and a guy who finished university and the one who didn't. The snobs usualy won't accept that your opinion is legitimate no matter how much evidence you present, unless you share their view. They simply "know" the truth and no ammount of reason or facts can prove them wrong. Sadly our system doesn't make much of a diference between the snobs and the normal people, so the snobs usualy get a better position no matter are they wrong or right.

[chemisthypnos]

There is alot of conformation to the mainstream. Especially here in the United States, you can expect to see entire classrooms of people at the college level with almost the exact same opinion (many times just because it is popular).

[RTSGamerMaple]

Kinda late post here, but only made an account a few days ago.

University helps give a guideline to learning a field and the accreditation helps to get a job.

Yep, there is some elitism to the matter, which quite frankly is often fuelled by ego and sometimes ignorance, causing very narrow-minded thinking. People like this don't realise that people have different learning styles, strengths, weaknesses, objectives and circumstances. You need a degree to go into certain kinds of careers, but what makes one career superior to another? Even then, does one need a piece of paper to tell you that you are qualified and competent? Also, what is qualified? It doesn't matter how good one thinks one is in a given field, there is always more to learn and where information is readily available does one really need a course to teach it? Is the skill of finding and applying that information not worth developing itself? In fact, how do you measure success when the very definition of success is not the same for everyone?

That being said, I'm not opposed to the university style of learning. It is an option. This does not necessarily mean it is always the best or only option. In many cases you can self-learn everything a university can teach you and more. University is very much like a business, it will promote anything to get more customers aka students, which makes sense, because for any business, income is important. So I would say specifically the elitism problem lies in the people and their acceptance of it, rather than the system itself.

Graduated from university and have decided to self-learn a related, but different field for which I have no degree, so I definitely get where the OP is coming from.

This post has been edited by RTSGamerMaple: 18 Jan 2016, 22:02

[3rdShockArmy]

@The General
@chemisthypnos
@RTSGamerMaple
Good analyses. From all of ya, guys. And I can agree that the it's not so much about the system, but more about the people and their social intelligence and thinking.
But, maybe, just maybe, we should alter the system a bit, so the results of higher education are more about the contribution of academic community to the rest of society, rather than just showing off and being special only due to the fact that you feel "superior" than a regular person with no higher education. You can self-educate and be more educated in the end, than a person with a College/University degree.

This post has been edited by 3rdShockArmy: 7 Mar 2016, 13:01

[chemisthypnos]

Thank you, ShockArmy.

Regardless of whether one chooses to go to college or not, self-education is very important. I find that often college is only a starting point from which you will base your lifelong learning (most of which will be presumably self-tought). I find that the latter is often the most important.