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RoTR in SC2, A time to move on?
spookeydonkey
post 19 Apr 2017, 21:32
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I'm sure this idea has been brought up before. Don't you guys think that it's time to move on from the absolutely horrid engine that is 1) SLOW 2) laggy 3) mismatches 4) horrible to develop for?

You guys may know me as the crazy guy that wiped his HDD so he could build a hackintosh for the SOLE reason of seeing if Generals ran better on Mac. You may also know me as the guy that proved that RoTR can in fact run on Macs, with only certain triggers that cause crashes (aside from the regular BS engine crashes). You guys probably don't know, but I'm also known for other crazy things involving games, including a project to develop these old out of copyright gamebooks into modern Windows/Android/iPhone apps until....some guys came out of NOWHERE and bought the rights to said gamebooks. These gamebooks are called Way of the Tiger, you can google them. And no, I decided not to release anything cuz, well, nobody likes to get sued.

So, seeing as RoTR uses pretty much original assets for the most part (and replacable/recreatable assets for the shared ones) I think it would be a cool idea to try to port a few units to the SC2 engine and see how it goes.

Hopefully there's someone here that has experience with the SC2 engine, and can tell us about any immediate limitations. Heck, if I could figure out how to export animations I would have already ported a few units and tried to code them, but I've never really been interested in making mods for games until I got addicted to Generals.

Any thoughts?

P.S. Yes, yes, I know obviously the ultimate decision lies with the SWR crew. I just want permission to try my hand at porting a few units for now. Cuz Zerg scum can't face Super Raptors.
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Shiro
post 19 Apr 2017, 22:28
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Short answer: no.

Long answer: no, because we are very familiar with the way everything has to be done in this particular engine and nobody is willing to relearn everything on the off-chance that a different engine will be better. Especially not for a project whose #1 issue is and has always been delays in the development.


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Graion Dilach
post 19 Apr 2017, 23:28
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Starcraft 2 requires Hunter-level effects for this simple and common thing called "Attack Ground" according to a topic I've read about it due to someone mixing Attack Ground with force-attack in OpenRA some months ago. Due to that, I really don't believe that engine is so much better, just only different and it's completely uncertain if it worths the time learning it to see if ROTR is plausible.

Also the ZH models are probably horrendously low poly for Starcraft.

Also I'm not sure if you can edit the game to drop unit selection amount limit. That's a showstopper. I dron't play Starcraft though, I absolutely loathe and despise even thinking about it.


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spookeydonkey
post 20 Apr 2017, 0:07
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Yeah, I know the team wouldn't want to move on to *ahem* an engine that doesn't crash every two seconds. That's why once 2.0 is out, maybe someone should see if there is actual interest in such a thing.

As for the models being low poly, that's definitely true. It's pretty easy to up-poly some things though, especially any basic shapes (cylinders etc). The harder thing would be all the textures.

As for limiting unit selection, you can do that in SC2.

But, you know, Battle.net is a beautiful thing. Can you just imagine it?

I'm pretty crazy and take on big projects single handedly, but even I probably couldn't pull something like a complete conversion alone. I'm also VERY prone to getting bored w projects, which is why I stopped contributing and programming altogether (for the most part).

Ah...I can only dream anyway. At least I finally learned I can start solo games vs CPU and just keep saving in case of a crash or lag. My friends don't like RoTR supposedly...they think the weapons are overkill. Never got SWR.NET to work (well, I could SEE ppl but that's it) and not too interested in figuring it out (hate crashes midmatch).

I'll share a story. I mentioned before we play at a gaming-cafe (like Korean pc bangs) w my team. We met a guy who...get this! The guy's been playing since release, and he got married, had kids, and has 3 of them that he taught to play since he didn't have anyone to play against! I may have to get that guy onto RoTR if he's not already w it.

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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 20 Apr 2017, 0:15
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you can just set the supply to something stupidly high like 1000000 like they did with the solar relay and power.

Also, no, no point in moving. although sc2 is far more stable and the pathing actually works, there are many other things it doesnt have that SAGE does have. Things like bike logic, the war armour sets and weapons work in sage etc.

You would have to redesign everything rom scratch and thats just not going to happen.


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Mizo
post 20 Apr 2017, 0:51
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Lets just pray Blade will unlock the secrets of SAGE so that we can start fixing.


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spookeydonkey
post 20 Apr 2017, 2:56
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Oh god, what is Bike logic that seems to be the bane of anything I ever wanna do lol?

Yeah, I guess I can/will keep dreaming. And doing CPU comp stomps. Seriously, I don't think I've ever felt as much satisfaction as watching a Hind just go around the map on its own and just destroy. Speaking of which, why does the Hind do that? Don't all other units stay within their specific "range" for guarding? Then again I may have noticed other units doing that, not sure.

Wait wait I have an idea that will solve ALL our problems! Let's pool money together, hire Chinese hackers, get them to get the SAGE source, and maybe also let them hack some money back into our accounts. And may as well have them fix all the issues. I think I just fixed everything. Your welcome. crush8.gif
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Mizo
post 20 Apr 2017, 5:48
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QUOTE
Oh god, what is Bike logic that seems to be the bane of anything I ever wanna do lol?


90% of the units rely on bike logic. It's basically having different 'forms' on the same unit like the combat cycles and pandurs to put it simply. Ofcourse TheHunter expanded this logic to the point he was able to force SAGE to wash his laundry with bike logic .

Example : Topols and Missile silos are based on bike logic. Crusader hover mode too, All units that can switch
Weapon forms or "deploy" something are based on bike logic. I could go on, but literally whenever the devs encounter a road block in coding, I can assure you that bike logic would be a huge contributer to the solution tongue.gif

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drebin052
post 20 Apr 2017, 8:52
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QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ)
you can just set the supply to something stupidly high like 1000000 like they did with the solar relay and power.

Also, no, no point in moving. although sc2 is far more stable and the pathing actually works, there are many other things it doesnt have that SAGE does have. Things like bike logic, the war armour sets and weapons work in sage etc.

You would have to redesign everything rom scratch and thats just not going to happen.


It really isn't that complex to implement.

The only limitation with attack ground styles of attacks is that they are not true weapons like a Marine's Gauss Rifle but need to be Effect - Target abilities instead. In short, similar to how the Thor in the campaign uses its 330mm Barrage Cannons ability.
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drebin052
post 20 Apr 2017, 9:33
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EDIT: Ugh...doubt post. Ignore what I wrote above.

I'd like to clear up some misconceptions about the SC2 engine here:

QUOTE (Graion Dilach)
Starcraft 2 requires Hunter-level effects for this simple and common thing called "Attack Ground"

Attack Ground isn't hard to implement. It's more of a case of it being a tedious task as it does require a slight workaround in that since it won't be a true attack like a Marine's Gauss Rifle (for instance) as it needs to be treated as an Effect - Target ability instead, so you will need to make one for every unit that you want to be able to force attack the ground.

Takes probably a minute or so to do for the first unit as most things can be duplicated in the process for subsequent weapons but like I said, a very tedious task.

QUOTE (Graion Dilach)
Also the ZH models are probably horrendously low poly for Starcraft.

This can be easily masked by reducing the scale of models through the Models module in the Data Editor, or by increasing the default camera height in the Cameras module. Unlike with Generals' scale parameter, SC2 does not have visual bugs when you try to zoom or move the camera around and you have a many units with resized models.

And besides with SC2's more generous average unit poly count it gives more leeway in terms of being able to add more details. Naturally the only problem is that RotR models will look very flat and bright as they'll be lacking bump and specular maps; yet another tedious (but optional) thing to implement.

QUOTE (Graion Dilach)
Also I'm not sure if you can edit the game to drop unit selection amount limit. That's a showstopper.

Not quite. SC2 by default supports up to 255 units to select at once (and all divided up into pages visible on the UI command bar for convenience, unlike in Generals).

You are thinking of SC1 and WC3, which did have selection limits of 12 but that is not the case in SC2. Besides which, it's highly unlikely that you will need to have 255 units selected at once as even that does not happen in regular games of ZH/RotR.

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ)
you can just set the supply to something stupidly high like 1000000 like they did with the solar relay and power.

Units can simply have their supply cost set to zero. You can use Supply as a replacement for replicating Generals' Base Power instead (for structure power costs, etc.).

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ)
Things like bike logic, the war armour sets and weapons work in sage etc.

Bike logic exists in a different slightly form in SC2 and is called Merge (the Protoss Archon for instance, is created via this) while a secondary one is called Morph. Both of which have their pros and cons but are far more better as they are flexible. And unlike with Generals' bike logic there is no hardcoded limit to the number of variants you want to implement.

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ)
Also, no, no point in moving. although sc2 is far more stable and the pathing actually works, there are many other things it doesnt have that SAGE does have.

Not quite true as I mentioned above.

QUOTE ({Lads}RikerZZZ)
You would have to redesign everything rom scratch and thats just not going to happen.

Pretty much this. Speaking as an SC2 mapmaker myself, it really isn't worth it for the SWR team to port RotR onto SC2 considering the gargantuan scale of the amount of work required to do it. Not to mention that RotR itself isn't even complete yet (2.0 is a long way off and 1.87 has yet to finish testing).

It would make more sense to "request" that RotR be ported onto SC2 after it's finished on Generals first (I'm sure the SWR team love that word so much by the way).

This post has been edited by drebin052: 20 Apr 2017, 9:34
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GeneralAziz
post 20 Apr 2017, 12:40
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no


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 20 Apr 2017, 12:49
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Drebin, what sort of maps did you make? Normal ones or arcade things?


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drebin052
post 20 Apr 2017, 13:49
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Mostly collaborative team work on a couple of Arcade maps. Not much of a ladder player so I've little experience on working with melee maps unfortunately.

...and I just realised how many typos there are in my last post. Blame the lack of coffee at 6 in the evening after a long day. tongue.gif

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BlastingBout
post 20 Apr 2017, 16:56
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Maybe there is a way to rebuild a different game to Rise of the Reds?

You guys know Act of Agression?
it is basically a copy of generals but is missing the finesse.

If you are the guy who does all this great stuff, can you PLEASE make a mod on Act of Agression change all the unit properties and so on to match the generals standard (If you have something like 125 years to spare)

Or maybe use the unreal engine? (some dude made red alert 3 in freaking VR with it)
or start a kickstarter campaign to fund buying the Generals 2 rights from EA and revamping it into something useful smile.gif
That way hard work can actually pay off by adding a payment system or whatnot. I would be glad to pay for that.

I definitely agree on your view on improving. Everybody that is against improvement because they think it can't be done is probably broke and lazy.
I'm no expert but I do know that you don't want to base your development process on hoping to get access to files or what not smile.gif
No one is interested in ways how things can't be done, in the end it only matters how it CAN be done.

(free motivational speech there I guess lol)

I really respect the work that these guys put in this mod. But there are still a lot of improvements to be done.
and every idea should be welcome and taken seriously. (not saying it isn't)


cheers

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Skitt
post 20 Apr 2017, 18:09
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QUOTE (BlastingBout @ 20 Apr 2017, 16:56) *
Maybe there is a way to rebuild a different game to Rise of the Reds?


nope, there too many things in reds that are sage specific, for Eg: reds heavily relies on bike logic.


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3rdShockArmy
post 20 Apr 2017, 19:01
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I really can't imagine RotR as being part of anything else but the ZH. I understand that SAGE is a pain in the ass, but the entire mod is based on ZH, so porting it would actually be porting the ZH+RotR. Rise of the Reds is a massive improvement over ZH, so much that even if we take away the new factions of Russia and ECA, there's still enough left with China, USA (drones) and GLA (Recycler) improvements to still be the best ZH mod out there. So porting it seems almost impossible (to me at least), without creating an entirely new game.

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X1Destroy
post 20 Apr 2017, 19:10
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Will jets work exactly as it is in Generals when port to SCII? I don't meant the VTOL ones, but the normal ones that need an airfield to use.




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Maelstrom
post 20 Apr 2017, 22:13
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QUOTE (BlastingBout @ 20 Apr 2017, 17:56) *
Maybe there is a way to rebuild a different game to Rise of the Reds?

Not without redoiding it from scratch

QUOTE (BlastingBout @ 20 Apr 2017, 17:56) *
You guys know Act of Agression?
it is basically a copy of generals but is missing the finesse.

If you are the guy who does all this great stuff, can you PLEASE make a mod on Act of Agression change all the unit properties and so on to match the generals standard (If you have something like 125 years to spare)

Missing the playerbase as well. The number of players of AoA is way lower than ZH players (even now).
Furthermore, as of now there is not a single person who published a mod of Act of Aggression. At some point, some fans did a "better zoom" mod, and got kicked by Steam. Quite a cold shower for modders

QUOTE (BlastingBout @ 20 Apr 2017, 17:56) *
Or maybe use the unreal engine? (some dude made red alert 3 in freaking VR with it)
or start a kickstarter campaign to fund buying the Generals 2 rights from EA and revamping it into something useful smile.gif
That way hard work can actually pay off by adding a payment system or whatnot. I would be glad to pay for that.

- Must recreate the game from scratch, would take a looooooong time
- If we can raise millions of dollars, yeah, maybe we stand a chance

It may sound harsh when I put it that way, but I have no intention of being insulting. EA keeps his licences very closely. Getting source codes from them sounds more of a miracle than anything else.

One thing to know however, is that Blade is starting to develop a re-implementation of SAGE engine and Generals/ZH. Quite similar to what has been done with OpenRA. If he manages to achieve this, there might (and I insist on might) switch to that new engine that would hopefully be more stable, and better adapted to new systems.


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Zeke
post 21 Apr 2017, 3:41
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This question has been brought up before numerous times, with different game engines, and the answer is still NO.

ROTR started in ZH and will end with ZH. The team, or at least Hunter has said that he, would rather make an entirely new game, after ROTR is done, rather than port it to a newer engine.

I am going to be incredibly rude in saying this, and this goes out to all the relevant people in this thread, as well as to everyone thinking of making a similar request in the future, stop acting like you know more about this than the team, if it were really that simply to jump to another engine it would have been done a long time ago.

You may think that all your "what if you just"s and "but can't you simply"s are revolutionary, but they've all been said thousands of times before, the same old delusional ramblings you hear from someone who obviously has zero modding experience.

"But it's ok to dream, and if we're gonna dream, might as well dream big right?" Wrong. What you are doing is pushing impossible dreams unto other people, people who are tired and just want to move on to their own things.

You want ROTR in a better engine? Do it yourselves. If you don't even have the will to do that, you have no right to ask other people to.


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Lobo Solitario
post 21 Apr 2017, 7:13
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Fully agree with Zeke.

It's also worth noting that Starcraft and C&C, for all that they are both RTS games, are basically philosophically opposed on just about everything - you could make a game that looks like a C&C game in Starcraft, but to get it to actually play like a C&C game you'd have to fight the engine pretty much every step of the way. The Starcraft engines abstract pretty much everything, whereas the C&C engines simulate pretty much everything. You'd have to script the hell out SCII just to get basic functionality that's already present in Generals.

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BlastingBout
post 21 Apr 2017, 15:25
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QUOTE (Zeke @ 21 Apr 2017, 4:41) *
This question has been brought up before numerous times, with different game engines, and the answer is still NO.

ROTR started in ZH and will end with ZH. The team, or at least Hunter has said that he, would rather make an entirely new game, after ROTR is done, rather than port it to a newer engine.

I am going to be incredibly rude in saying this, and this goes out to all the relevant people in this thread, as well as to everyone thinking of making a similar request in the future, stop acting like you know more about this than the team, if it were really that simply to jump to another engine it would have been done a long time ago.

You may think that all your "what if you just"s and "but can't you simply"s are revolutionary, but they've all been said thousands of times before, the same old delusional ramblings you hear from someone who obviously has zero modding experience.

"But it's ok to dream, and if we're gonna dream, might as well dream big right?" Wrong. What you are doing is pushing impossible dreams unto other people, people who are tired and just want to move on to their own things.

You want ROTR in a better engine? Do it yourselves. If you don't even have the will to do that, you have no right to ask other people to.




I know you warned about being rude, and I am not planning on responding that way.
But people say this stuff because they care, because they have a passion for this mod. In a way that is a big compliment.

Also have you ever had an employer? because basically every manager has this attitude to 'wish all kinds of impossible things' and every engineer has yours.
If people keep asking this, that means they need more details on the why not part to be convinced. (or they just didn't read the topic lol)

anyway,, who's playing a match tonight?

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BlastingBout
post 21 Apr 2017, 15:34
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QUOTE (Maelstrom @ 20 Apr 2017, 23:13) *
Not without redoiding it from scratch


Missing the playerbase as well. The number of players of AoA is way lower than ZH players (even now).



Furthermore, as of now there is not a single person who published a mod of Act of Aggression. At some point, some fans did a "better zoom" mod, and got kicked by Steam. Quite a cold shower for modders


- Must recreate the game from scratch, would take a looooooong time
- If we can raise millions of dollars, yeah, maybe we stand a chance

It may sound harsh when I put it that way, but I have no intention of being insulting. EA keeps his licences very closely. Getting source codes from them sounds more of a miracle than anything else.

One thing to know however, is that Blade is starting to develop a re-implementation of SAGE engine and Generals/ZH. Quite similar to what has been done with OpenRA. If he manages to achieve this, there might (and I insist on might) switch to that new engine that would hopefully be more stable, and better adapted to new systems.


Yes I don't like AoA as much as well. but the thing is, you guys have the knowledge to make a game like that awesome.

You don't sound harsh I understand what you're saying.
Maybe buying the rights (if it's even for sale) is a better idea than buying the source files.
I really think you guys do an awesome job anyway. I have never seen such a dedicated modding community

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Zeke
post 21 Apr 2017, 16:06
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QUOTE (BlastingBout @ 21 Apr 2017, 22:25) *
But people say this stuff because they care, because they have a passion for this mod. In a way that is a big compliment.


No, people say this stuff, because they are lazy selfish pricks. They want a better experience for themselves, but they're afraid of the work needed.

Solution, tempt the with the prospects of "better performance", "no bugs", and "better multiplayer", let them do the dirty work, and you all get the dream mod you've always wanted with zero effort.

A passionate fan would start the project himself, and simply ask the devs for support. A passionate fan would know better than push more work unto the devs table.

At the very least, they would opt to privately ask the devs, instead of making a public thread which would make the devs look like idiots for not thinking of this simple answer sooner.

QUOTE (BlastingBout @ 21 Apr 2017, 22:25) *
Also have you ever had an employer? because basically every manager has this attitude to 'wish all kinds of impossible things' and every engineer has yours.


Employers pay their employees, so they have the right to push all the work that they want. Doing extra work gets modders nothing.

QUOTE (BlastingBout @ 21 Apr 2017, 22:25) *
If people keep asking this, that means they need more details on the why not part to be convinced. (or they just didn't read the topic lol)


People keep asking because they don't care. They don't care about what the dev thinks, they don't care if it really is possible, they can't be bothered to do the research, all they see is an opportunity to get a better gaming experience with zero work.

That is the true face of "the dream" that they want to come true, not a better ROTR for everybody, just a better ROTR for them, and if other people can benefit too then all the better.


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Neo
post 21 Apr 2017, 17:43
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I have better idea. Why not you try to make the mod for yourself and ask some help if you need to. You should design the models by yourself too. Because devs team can't do this since they are used to SAGE engine only.


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Zion
post 21 Apr 2017, 18:44
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Starcraft engine is not a good engine for zh, no right click scrolling, and maps are going to look like crap.. the only thing that is going to keep generals alive and have that "feel" is a remake of sage.

Some good things about generals:
rightclick scroll
realistic map demographics, starcrafts maps look like a board game
more realistic particle animation
pathfinding tho glitchy, works better than starcrafts reduced polygon paths, in generals the paths are more natural. what fits starcrafts pathfinding is its futuristic/space enviroment.. generals is more earthly modern combat
also in starcraft, alot of units just move through other units
I hate starcrafts grid like base building, generals pop and spin anywhere
Generals despite getting released in 2003, the graphics are really good, when maxed out

Some good things about starcraft:
set all same production buildings to one hotkey, and auto queue and distribute them most efficiently
better online connection, they also have dedicated servers everywhere
their replay system is 100 times better than zh+gentool

This post has been edited by Zion: 21 Apr 2017, 18:49
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Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 11 December 2017 - 16:28