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RoTR in SC2, A time to move on?
Graion Dilach
post 21 Apr 2017, 23:35
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QUOTE (BlastingBout @ 20 Apr 2017, 17:56) *
Or maybe use the unreal engine? (some dude made red alert 3 in freaking VR with it)


That was OpenRA gamecode + Unreal Engine (used alone as) renderer + RA3 mod remakes of RA2 assets + OpenRA-RA2 mod project for stats and whatnot. Get your facts straight.

The head OpenRA dev even noticed their own bugs in that video.


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QUOTE (Hanfield @ 17 Dec 2016, 20:47)
we have players who don't play, testers who don't test, devs who don't dev and members who don't remember
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spookeydonkey
post 22 Apr 2017, 6:03
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I don't know who this Zeke guy is, but dude you're a jerk. I'm pretty new to this community, and I don't know who the regulars are and your tag says, but seriously take your attitude down a notch. Needless to say I took the entire thing as directed at (mainly) myself.

I'm mainly a comp stomper, I don't play online anymore cuz who bothers playing if mismatches and crashes occur very very frequently?

As for all the rest of that noise you made, you do realize I actually have done more to help out than 90% of the non-devs that bother to post here right? The only reason I even stopped was because Mac OS was pissing me off and I needed Windows back lol (I'm the one that researched getting MacOS Generals + RoTR to work, and made good discoveries). So, yeah I do things.

Now I resent all this BS about wondering and dreaming. Yeah, we can and will dream and imagine what we prefer to play in a system that doesn't suck. I'm really holding back the profanity here. Really.

I'll break it down for you and any other naysayer. RoTR is freakin' MAGIC. Don't ask me why, I could go on. I'll just say that it may be true that these type of games are kinda dead (unless Blizzard makes them) and even if they weren't, Generals and especially RotR is unique.

So, yeah, excuse us and do us a favor next time and miss us with that noise.


All that said, yeah it's a wish. Not gonna happen realistically, and even if this mod is completed at some point and some team forms (one that doesn't disband quickly) and tried to recreate it in SC2, it would be pretty hard to get the feel. Plus, some assets would have to be changed). But, you know, there was a group that kinda went through a similar thing. You know what ended up as a result? A small, unknown game called DOTA. Group totally didn't get paid off that AT ALL. /sarcasm

This post has been edited by spookeydonkey: 22 Apr 2017, 6:05
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V.Metalic
post 22 Apr 2017, 7:40
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QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 7:03) *
I don't know who this Zeke guy is, but dude you're a jerk.

Its a mod leader for Generation X, Zero Hour Reborn, C&C: Untitled and Deep Impact, all Generals ZH mods. He is active probably as long as Hunter and Comr4de, so he knows what he is saying. All of it is truth.

DOTA... thats like comparing Crusader Kings and Tetris. DOTA games dont need that much to function. Only the player heroes needs most of the work, than the NPCs and lastily maps. Compared to RotR where the uniquesness has to be narrowed along the way of faction's theme and specialization, its something else. And of course the balance is the final issue for both, but again, DoTA had it easier. THe only thing which DOTA had to do the hard way was to make its own engine for the game.

This post has been edited by V.Metalic: 22 Apr 2017, 7:49


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Zeke
post 22 Apr 2017, 9:24
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QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 13:03) *
I don't know who this Zeke guy is, but dude you're a jerk.


Oh pardon me, The name is Zeke, No Life Studios Project Leader, ROTR Beta Tester, ZH Modding Guru, and SWR Forum's Dark Knight, pleasure to make your acquaintance.

QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 13:03) *
Needless to say I took the entire thing as directed at (mainly) myself.


Well, I won't deny that it was your topic brought this issue back to my attention, but this is directed towards you just as much as it is directed to everyone else who's supporting this idea.

QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 13:03) *
As for all the rest of that noise you made, you do realize I actually have done more to help out than 90% of the non-devs that bother to post here right? The only reason I even stopped was because Mac OS was pissing me off and I needed Windows back lol (I'm the one that researched getting MacOS Generals + RoTR to work, and made good discoveries). So, yeah I do things.


That's cool, but by work I meant work towards your proposal of moving ROTR to the SC2 engine, which, as far as I can see, is zero.

QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 13:03) *
Now I resent all this BS about wondering and dreaming. Yeah, we can and will dream and imagine what we prefer to play in a system that doesn't suck. I'm really holding back the profanity here. Really.

I'll break it down for you and any other naysayer. RoTR is freakin' MAGIC. Don't ask me why, I could go on. I'll just say that it may be true that these type of games are kinda dead (unless Blizzard makes them) and even if they weren't, Generals and especially RotR is unique.


And let me break it down for you and any other delusional next gen fanatics out there. Your idea is not new, it's been brought up before, and has been thoroughly shot down.

No amount of "next gen awesomeness" would make up for the fact that we're potentially looking at waiting another 2-5 years, for the team to re-adjust their workflow to working with SC2 modding tools, just to get the mod to it's current state in a new engine, all while running the risk of some features not being able to be ported properly, and the team getting too frustrated and ending the ROTR eight then and there.

No promise of buttery smooth multiplayer performance will make up for the devastation in the MP community brought by alienating all the players, who can barely run generals on low, by forcing them to get SC2 just to continue playing ROTR.

Not to mention, invalidating all the work that has been spent developing SWR.net, all the fan maps, missions, add-ons, all the SAGE research and development. And for what? Because mismatches suck? And you're calling me a jerk?

QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 13:03) *
So, yeah, excuse us and do us a favor next time and miss us with that noise.


Right back at ya, kid.

QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 13:03) *
All that said, yeah it's a wish. Not gonna happen realistically, and even if this mod is completed at some point and some team forms (one that doesn't disband quickly) and tried to recreate it in SC2, it would be pretty hard to get the feel. Plus, some assets would have to be changed). But, you know, there was a group that kinda went through a similar thing. You know what ended up as a result? A small, unknown game called DOTA. Group totally didn't get paid off that AT ALL. /sarcasm


The DOTA case is not similar to your proposal at all. They finished what they started with WC3, before moving on to make their own thing. What you're suggesting is for ROTR to abandon its current progress, for a chance at a "better life" that is more likely to cause more harm than good. Also a MOBA is fundementally different from an RTS. MOBAS focus on single characters, there's no base building, and it's larely PvP based so AI development is not a priority.

Since you like using examples, let me give you a few examples of my own:
- Rogue Republic - Started as CnC3 mod, get fed up and went indie, their latest update was 2 years ago. Project is presumed dead
- Red March - Same story, used to be CnC3 mod. Last update one year ago. Also presumed dead
- Tiberium Sun Rising - Used to be a ZH mod. Although they recently made an update stating that they're back, it took 4 years before that happened, and now the news has once again stopped.
- C&C Renovatio - Started as CnC3 mod. Planned to go indie, but nothing seemed to develop from that plan. Project presumed dead.

The list goes on and on. You think I'm simply being pessimistic? I know the truth. Making games/mods is hard, and moving doesn't make things any easier. In fact, in most cases, moving is what kills a mod.

This post has been edited by Zeke: 22 Apr 2017, 9:28


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Anubis
post 22 Apr 2017, 9:34
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QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 8:03) *
I don't know who this Zeke guy is, but dude you're a jerk. I'm pretty new to this community, and I don't know who the regulars are and your tag says, but seriously take your attitude down a notch. Needless to say I took the entire thing as directed at (mainly) myself.

I'm mainly a comp stomper, I don't play online anymore cuz who bothers playing if mismatches and crashes occur very very frequently?

As for all the rest of that noise you made, you do realize I actually have done more to help out than 90% of the non-devs that bother to post here right? The only reason I even stopped was because Mac OS was pissing me off and I needed Windows back lol (I'm the one that researched getting MacOS Generals + RoTR to work, and made good discoveries). So, yeah I do things.

Now I resent all this BS about wondering and dreaming. Yeah, we can and will dream and imagine what we prefer to play in a system that doesn't suck. I'm really holding back the profanity here. Really.

I'll break it down for you and any other naysayer. RoTR is freakin' MAGIC. Don't ask me why, I could go on. I'll just say that it may be true that these type of games are kinda dead (unless Blizzard makes them) and even if they weren't, Generals and especially RotR is unique.

So, yeah, excuse us and do us a favor next time and miss us with that noise.


All that said, yeah it's a wish. Not gonna happen realistically, and even if this mod is completed at some point and some team forms (one that doesn't disband quickly) and tried to recreate it in SC2, it would be pretty hard to get the feel. Plus, some assets would have to be changed). But, you know, there was a group that kinda went through a similar thing. You know what ended up as a result? A small, unknown game called DOTA. Group totally didn't get paid off that AT ALL. /sarcasm


Nag nag nag ... i'm so important i discovered what the cat buries ... nag nag. You speak of noise, yet you seem to make the biggest noise in here. Now unlike you and your mindblowing Mac OS discoveries which basically help you and maybe ... maybe 5% of people who still play rotr, Zeke made mods, worked on mods, made tutorials for scientists like yourself to know ... for example how to do that simple as fuck task of installing a mod without complaining it doesn't work, made modding tutorials, pretty much added his mark for a lot of people in the ZH community. But all that could be found with that magical tool we've been given called SEARCH FUNCTION - be it here, or google online. That being said, another miracle of that search function ability we have in life is knowing wtf a port means - you see ZH has a rudimentary system for models and textures - for example for ZH a model only needs 1 texture, while for Starcraft models need 3 textures because of the whole new visuals with bumpmaps and all that new shiny shit. So that means in order to port just 1 model from ZH to starcraft 2 you'd need 2 more texture per unit. Along with that, you'd need model reworks because the w3d format, and model bones and basically almost everything on the rigging part of the model needs to be redone. So when you decide to come up with a post that to you personally - feels like - omg i have this genius idea and ill push it with arguments such as - mismatches - it would do everyone - especially you and others like you a huge service if you would actually do some documentation over what that idea would require - the amount of work. Now ofc for someone who hasnt touched modding his entire life - modding feels like - make model request - specify what it does and then that model will magically pop out of the dev's ass because ideas are that easy to make. So if there's anyone here who needs to tone down on his prickness that would be you. For a few reasons - 1 you're new to the community as you said, and other than that OS crap you discovered which to be fair - helps almost no one, cause even americans don't play that much on MACbooks, you haven't done shit in terms of modding, you don't know what member did what, and may end up farting some idiotic text that only puts you in a bad light. Tl:dr - a simple google of how starcraft 2 functions and how generals functions would've told you that porting anything ZH related to starcraft 2 would at the best tripple the amount of work needed, and would require alot of cutoffs and adaptations, cause the 2 engines are completely different. And engine work is alot more complicated than installing the right software to make a game work on a stupid MAC.
As for that whole DOTA - once again your thinking derps hard. To compare a game that basically has 5 identical units per side, 3 identical structures per side, and the only real work is a couple of hero units with a massive RTS that has tons of unique units, unique structures, neutral fauna/flora/buildings that need to be adapted - is about as intelligent as comparing a chess game with a heroes of might and magic game.

This post has been edited by Anubis: 22 Apr 2017, 9:36
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spookeydonkey
post 22 Apr 2017, 13:16
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Reply to Zeke:

That's the reply I preferred, but you did skim over the fact that I admit that's its a pipe dream. Your guess at 2 - 5 years tho, I'd skew towards 2 years (then again, life happens to all of us).

As for the zero progress towards doing some of the work myself...yeah, that's what these kinds of topics are for. I'm pretty new, like I said, so why would I start with anything if someone already tried and then either a) ran into some dead end cool.gif see # a tongue.gif

This does show that there's a definite demand if it's being brought up over and over again. So, basically, when the project finishes a kickstarter or something should be launched (if there's a REAL interest) in maybe porting (unless other projects make it unnecessary, such as SAGE expansion or something else).

Talk is cheap, but I'd pay $1500 towards this goal. That's a drop in the ocean, but I think that if done right, and if SWR wanted to (ultimately comes down to them, their assets) they could get more than enough interest.

So yeah. Oh and I don't play DOTA btw, I was just makin an example of it.

Reply to Anubis (who I should just ignore honestly) :

Was I supposed to read that novel?

Thank you very much for all your assumptions. I've been on and off programming since...1991? I've ported games from the MSX computer to Android and Windows for my own personal fun. Most modding is script kiddie work compared to real programming.

I've taught myself a basic level of 3d editing. Bones are a joke ESPECIALLY FOR A GAME WHERE 90% OF THE UNITS ARE NOT BIPEDAL LOOOOL, rigging is what's annoying (you know, for humanoid objects. You never rigged a damn thing have you) , and texturing the most difficult (for me anyway, I'm not artistic at all).

And please, don't ever try to act better than me or anyone else here by comparing people that put in work or haven't. Writing tutorials, you're supposed to be impressing me? "Oooh I'm a modder I'm a badass" is not impressive at all.

If anyone has anything constructive to say by all means go ahead. I refuse to acknowledge stupid replies. Zeke was called out, and he came thru with a good reply that was respectful. Anubis...didn't.

This post has been edited by spookeydonkey: 22 Apr 2017, 13:30
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spookeydonkey
post 22 Apr 2017, 13:27
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This post has been edited by spookeydonkey: 22 Apr 2017, 13:28
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spookeydonkey
post 22 Apr 2017, 13:42
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QUOTE (V.Metalic @ 22 Apr 2017, 7:40) *
Its a mod leader for Generation X, Zero Hour Reborn, C&C: Untitled and Deep Impact, all Generals ZH mods. He is active probably as long as Hunter and Comr4de, so he knows what he is saying. All of it is truth.

DOTA... thats like comparing Crusader Kings and Tetris. DOTA games dont need that much to function. Only the player heroes needs most of the work, than the NPCs and lastily maps. Compared to RotR where the uniquesness has to be narrowed along the way of faction's theme and specialization, its something else. And of course the balance is the final issue for both, but again, DoTA had it easier. THe only thing which DOTA had to do the hard way was to make its own engine for the game.


Didn't DOTA basically start an entirely new genre (I'm sure technically there may have been something similar before it) ?

You make it sound too easy, I've read about its history a few times and it seems like balance was a huge divisive issue. Anyone can make an engine and throw some models and sounds in there, but to actually make a unique game type is pretty hard. That's what makes RoTR different than most of the mods for ZH (not that's a new game type). It's got that special factor that, let's be honest now, if it wasn't so good nobody would have followed it for however many years it's been in development.



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Mizo
post 22 Apr 2017, 14:43
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No need to go hay wire over this mess. You've got the dreamer who wishes for a mod port to a new engine ( which is never going to happen, we might as well start with a new game all together) . and the Veterans who have seen this topic pop up so many times, and are quiet sick of this dream talk and "wishful demands" .

Basically, No, a port will never happen. It's just too much effort for little benefit in the long run.


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Zeke
post 22 Apr 2017, 14:58
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QUOTE (spookeydonkey @ 22 Apr 2017, 20:42) *
That's what makes RoTR different than most of the mods for ZH (not that's a new game type). It's got that special factor that, let's be honest now, if it wasn't so good nobody would have followed it for however many years it's been in development.


ROTR is unique, only when compared to other ZH mods. Because it has a much higher graphics level, and adds game mechanics that are not found in the original game.

However these unique characteristics, are simply the norm for RTS games.

Most of the new mechanics added to ROTR, deployable units, radius decals, super weapons with purchasable ammo, and enemy tech stealing, can be found in other RTS games. The only thing that makes them unique is that you get to use them in ZH.

It's the same with ROTR's graphics, yes the new models look pretty, but what modern RTS game, or just modern game in general, doesn't?

If anything, porting ROTR to SC2, would make it lose a lot of what makes it unique, and make it just another modern war RTS game.

And this is the root of way most mods fail after switching game engines.

The developers fail to realize that what the fans want is not simply their mod, but their mod working for whatever old game they currently own.

ROTR is special because it fixes a lot of ZH's problems, and adds a lot of new stuff to ZH, take ZH out of the equation and you take out 90% of what makes ROTR, ROTR.

This post has been edited by Zeke: 22 Apr 2017, 15:01


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Zion
post 22 Apr 2017, 15:13
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lets admit one thing, no matter how many "dumb" ideas people post here, they all get replys ... people here just love to chat, and prove themselves.. leaving these forums with a quick response, and a lock never happens.

so you cant blame spookerdonky for getting worked up...

this could of been avoided

This post has been edited by Zion: 22 Apr 2017, 15:14
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SoraZ
post 22 Apr 2017, 17:29
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Well for this particular topic, the lock will happen now, because everything that could possibly be said has been said.

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