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China is to RoTR as Soviets is to YR
Inst
post 5 Jan 2019, 20:11
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I'm wondering if anyone has the same feeling, but China is quite similar to the Soviets of Yuri's Revenge. In Yuri's Revenge, the cool parts of the Soviets (Cloning Vats, Yuri) was moved off to its own faction, making it relatively boring compared to its RA2 incarnation. The Soviets did get the Siege Chopper, which functions as an interesting Rocketeer variant, but otherwise the Soviets became boring, although I hear that in the modern pro play, Soviets are the strongest side.

With the removal of Neutron Shells, China is a rather straightforward faction that specializes in brute force operations. If you say, look at the Zerg of Starcraft, they weren't simply an outnumbering force, but emphasized mobility (zerglings, hydralisks were reasonably fast with upgrades, nydus canals gave incredible mobility) and expansion capability.

I understand the need of game designers to emphasize the difference between the Chinese and Russian factions; the Russians are supposed to be more high-tech than the Chinese, but the RoTR Chinese are almost lower tech in feel than the GLA. I mean, you gave them a MiG-21 / J-7 as a bomber, and the MiG-21 costs more than a MiG 1.44.

How about some newer kit? If, as the storyline goes, the Chinese are a major superpower, their technology should have improved as well, so why not, as in real life, remote-controlled drones? The Chinese dominate the military drone market because the US is loathe to export drone technology. Or how about a J-20 as a limit 1 unit that specializes in late-game reconnaissance and interception? Or we can go the same route as in Yuri's Revenge, and give the Chinese cheap, spammable helicopters (WZ-19)?
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Zeke
post 6 Jan 2019, 12:15
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I don't really care for all the other points, just like to clarify one thing.

Neutron shells were removed for China, not because China "can't have hightech stuff", but because ZH has an unfixable bug where neutron weapons will one hit kill units that use bike logic. A lot of stuff in ROTR use bike logic, which would make the nuke cannon able to one hit kill most of the things in the game. You could argue that neutron shells have always been able to one hit kill vehicles anyway, but that's not technically true, as you can still get them back by recrewing them, so they don't actually die, their veterancy just gets reset.

ECA has neutron weapons, because their neutron bombs are big enough to one hit kill most things in the game anyway, so that bug doesn't matter.


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Maelstrom
post 6 Jan 2019, 17:46
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China's main is spamming units, while Russia can rely more on small groups.
And it translates into the current "bonus stack system" for China.
Horde, Propaganda, Frenzy and Airship battlecry all stack, giving all your units a incredible buff. You can use them all at the same time, in a stacked way, or timing Frenzy and Battlecry to extend the duration, kind of.
Chinese units are weak without bonus. The minimum to have is the Horde.

Also, Chinese units are cheaper and built faster than Russian. So you can more easily outspam an ennemy early game.


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Shiro
post 7 Jan 2019, 21:19
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QUOTE (Zeke @ 6 Jan 2019, 12:15) *
Neutron shells were removed for China, not because China "can't have hightech stuff", but because ZH has an unfixable bug where neutron weapons will one hit kill units that use bike logic. A lot of stuff in ROTR use bike logic, which would make the nuke cannon able to one hit kill most of the things in the game. You could argue that neutron shells have always been able to one hit kill vehicles anyway, but that's not technically true, as you can still get them back by recrewing them, so they don't actually die, their veterancy just gets reset.


Which is the same reason why Jarmen Kell lost his depiloting shot back then. And to be clear, The_Hunter found a way to fix the bug a long time after, but by that point the design was too far advanced to reverse things for China and GLA.
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Inst
post 10 Jan 2019, 23:48
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China wasn't the horde race in ZH, though. The reason Hordes don't work for China is that most Horde races tend to be econ-focused, i.e, the strategy is to get map control, get an econ advantage, then pump out tons of cheap units out at the enemy. The actual ZH horde race was the GLA; Scorpions counter almost everything on the ground in sufficient numbers, and with map control you could just spam Scorpions at everything. When that stops working, spam buggies, spam scuds, etc.

Economically speaking, China was between GLA and the United States. The United states spent 3200 per supply point, while the GLA and Chinese spent 2100. But the GLA had cheap workers and could spam workers around to seize map control and force the opponent to attack them to break their supply stash spam.

Unless, say, you want to give China half-priced horde dozers, China doesn't work well as a horde army. You have to remember that micro aside, 1 strong unit is equal to 2 units of the same cost but power, so hording is illusory.

Another complaint I'd make is that Hoppers are overpowered compared to Battlemasters. 8 hoppers beat 5 battlemasters since hoppers have a better statline for cost than battlemasters. The ideal is that hoppers are used to inject horde bonus into battlemasters, not hopper spam working on its own.

This post has been edited by Inst: 10 Jan 2019, 23:53
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Inst
post 11 Jan 2019, 1:06
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One thing I think you guys missed in designing the game is that the extra dozers are rather boring. If you want to make China's dozer 500 and be built in 2s, that'd be great, or you could make the ECA's dozer more expensive but give it combat abilities, that'd also be great. Clone dozers is generally boring.

This post has been edited by Inst: 11 Jan 2019, 1:07
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Zeke
post 15 Jan 2019, 4:39
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QUOTE (Inst @ 11 Jan 2019, 6:48) *
China wasn't the horde race in ZH, though.


EA disagrees with you


taken from the generals manual

QUOTE (Inst @ 11 Jan 2019, 6:48) *
The reason Hordes don't work for China is that most Horde races tend to be econ-focused...




This post has been edited by Zeke: 15 Jan 2019, 4:41


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{Lads}RikerZZZ
post 15 Jan 2019, 12:47
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Horde mode hackers is terrifying. Please post that shit as NSFW in the future


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