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Aviation Monthly
teslashark
post 19 Apr 2014, 5:28
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QUOTE (DerKrieger @ 18 Apr 2014, 14:32) *
Pretty cool, I was thinking about stating that the Hellfire was a J-7 converted into a UCAV.


It turns out manned planes can't be converted into UCAVs outright because a large number of them are still operated with physical steering so motors and signal receiving system requires a lot of weight and technology. I've seen some pictures of a J-6 unmanned subspecies, but I suppose they would simply be used as improvised missles or practice targets. These J-7s still requires human brains and BALLS to fly.


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MARS
post 19 Apr 2014, 7:43
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QUOTE (8igDaddy8lake @ 19 Apr 2014, 2:34) *
I see. Very interesting stuff, and makes a lot of sense. I'm pretty curious as to what the USA uses in their assault rifles then - 6.8 mm SPC? Also, anything on standard pistols for the various factions (not that it would matter in-game)? I feel like the USA would be using something like the FN45 Tactical, the ECA a burst pistol using FN5.7 rounds (the VP70 seems like a fit, maybe updated with a better trigger and sights), Russia some full-blown machine pistol using 7N31, China some sort of other armor-piercing pistol, and GLA whatever the hell they can find - maybe Lugers? Good for a chuckle.


Pistols are kind of a blank spot at this time. All we know is that some Russians, including Boris, still use the Makarov PM although that might be more due to personal affections than the fact that they don't have anything better. At worst, they'd still be using the MP443 Grach as their standard issue sidearm for the regulars. At best, it'd be a newer/fictional weapon.
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Svea Rike
post 19 Apr 2014, 12:38
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I don't think pistols would be anything interesting to explore. Only firearms that have been mentioned in the lore would need an explanation, IMHO. But this is Krieger's fic and he gets to decide whether or not to write about pistols.


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Cobretti
post 19 Apr 2014, 15:27
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QUOTE (8igDaddy8lake @ 18 Apr 2014, 20:34) *
I see. Very interesting stuff, and makes a lot of sense. I'm pretty curious as to what the USA uses in their assault rifles then - 6.8 mm SPC? Also, anything on standard pistols for the various factions (not that it would matter in-game)? I feel like the USA would be using something like the FN45 Tactical, the ECA a burst pistol using FN5.7 rounds (the VP70 seems like a fit, maybe updated with a better trigger and sights), Russia some full-blown machine pistol using 7N31, China some sort of other armor-piercing pistol, and GLA whatever the hell they can find - maybe Lugers? Good for a chuckle.

If they're still using the M-16/M4 and M249 SAW, which lore suggests that they are to some extent, then their rifles would still use 5.56mm NATO. However, I'm thinking by the time of the Russo-European War they may have started introducing a LSAT based firearms family using telescoped polymer cased ammunition, possibly in 6.8mm.

As for handguns? Good question. The US probably still uses M9s and M1911 variants, along with HK45Cs and Glock family used by SOCOM. The ECA could use the P226 and FN Five-Seven, possibly also the CZ P01 and members of the Glock family or Beretta Px4. It'd be like with their rifles prior to the introduction of the HKFN-22; any given soldier would be using his nations' rifle, be it the F2000, ARX-160, HK416, CZ-805, L85A2, AUG A3, FAMAS, G36A2, or AK-5C. The Russian Federation likely uses the MP443 and the PP-2000 sub-machine gun. China, the QSZ-92. As for the GLA, probably whatever they can get their hands on. Probably a lot of stuff like TT-33s, Makarov PMs, and so on.

QUOTE (TheD3rp @ 19 Apr 2014, 0:22) *
Can we have some info on the main US recon plane?(SR-72?)

I could write something on that, I decided that the Aurora was an armed variant of the SR-72.


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TheD3rp
post 19 Apr 2014, 19:42
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QUOTE (DerKrieger @ 19 Apr 2014, 7:27) *
I could write something on that, I decided that the Aurora was an armed variant of the SR-72.

I don't think so, if I remember correctly the Aurora's history is something along these lines(And the SR-72 is a drone):

Blah blah blah, 1980's US hypersonic bomber project named "Aurora", Blah blah blah, Conspiracy, blah blah blah, US Generals leak the existence of the Aurora around 2020, forcing it to be pushed into combat service, Blah blah blah, Auroa suffers heavy losses, Blah blah blah, Aurora is withdrawn from service.

This post has been edited by TheD3rp: 19 Apr 2014, 19:43
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__CrUsHeR
post 19 Apr 2014, 19:53
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^ And probably was tested in the Area 51 being sighted as an UFO over the past decades, as well as the most secret aircrafts of the USA. wink.gif The resume that you posted seems to be plausible and suitable for the Aurora project.


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Cobretti
post 19 Apr 2014, 20:49
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QUOTE (TheD3rp @ 19 Apr 2014, 14:42) *
I don't think so, if I remember correctly the Aurora's history is something along these lines(And the SR-72 is a drone):

Blah blah blah, 1980's US hypersonic bomber project named "Aurora", Blah blah blah, Conspiracy, blah blah blah, US Generals leak the existence of the Aurora around 2020, forcing it to be pushed into combat service, Blah blah blah, Auroa suffers heavy losses, Blah blah blah, Aurora is withdrawn from service.


Here's where I went over the speculated backstory and development of the Aurora. I decided a variant of a proposed hypersonic aircraft based on the Aurora spy plane and SR-72 drone was a feasible explanation.


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8igDaddy8lake
post 19 Apr 2014, 20:49
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QUOTE (DerKrieger @ 19 Apr 2014, 9:27) *
If they're still using the M-16/M4 and M249 SAW, which lore suggests that they are to some extent, then their rifles would still use 5.56mm NATO. However, I'm thinking by the time of the Russo-European War they may have started introducing a LSAT based firearms family using telescoped polymer cased ammunition, possibly in 6.8mm.

As for handguns? Good question. The US probably still uses M9s and M1911 variants, along with HK45Cs and Glock family used by SOCOM. The ECA could use the P226 and FN Five-Seven, possibly also the CZ P01 and members of the Glock family or Beretta Px4. It'd be like with their rifles prior to the introduction of the HKFN-22; any given soldier would be using his nations' rifle, be it the F2000, ARX-160, HK416, CZ-805, L85A2, AUG A3, FAMAS, G36A2, or AK-5C. The Russian Federation likely uses the MP443 and the PP-2000 sub-machine gun. China, the QSZ-92. As for the GLA, probably whatever they can get their hands on. Probably a lot of stuff like TT-33s, Makarov PMs, and so on.


Man, that makes the M16 family in service for roughly 80 years! The SAWs probably have been phased out by the LSAT and IAR by then, but we really haven't seen a replacement coming up for the M16 in recent years, so this seems quite plausible. Probably with budget cuts after the War on Terror, they might not develop alternatives for a while.

I don't know, M9s and M1911s would be old as hell by then, and soldiers would probably just buy newer, more advanced weapons from Any Gun Store, USA (which would probably be something along the lines of the USP45 or FN45 Tactical), which would then be a sort of de facto standard. I feel like the ECA would have some sort of standard pistol for troops, probably still in 5.7 mm. I mentioned the VP70 because of its intended purpose as a Volkspistole, which seems like something the ECA might be using in their later desperate state. PP2000 is used by Igla trooper, but for some reason Boris uses a Makarov...I would say that's a personal pistol, but he's an enlisted man, right? Anyways, the MP443 sounds like the norm, or else the GSh-18 (although the GSh-18 has already been adopted, so more likely that). Yeah, China would probably stick with the QSZ-92. For GLA, I said Luger because of a VICE news video I watched on gun markets in Pakistan, which showed them still producing lots of the weapons. It would make sort of sense for them to use it, as they use old, antiquated equipment, and it definitely distinguishes them from the "imperialist heathens" (yeah, no one *reasonable* uses toggle-locks anymore).

This post has been edited by 8igDaddy8lake: 19 Apr 2014, 21:20
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teslashark
post 20 Apr 2014, 19:17
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QUOTE (8igDaddy8lake @ 19 Apr 2014, 12:49) *
Man, that makes the M16 family in service for roughly 80 years! The SAWs probably have been phased out by the LSAT and IAR by then, but we really haven't seen a replacement coming up for the M16 in recent years, so this seems quite plausible. Probably with budget cuts after the War on Terror, they might not develop alternatives for a while.

I don't know, M9s and M1911s would be old as hell by then, and soldiers would probably just buy newer, more advanced weapons from Any Gun Store, USA (which would probably be something along the lines of the USP45 or FN45 Tactical), which would then be a sort of de facto standard. I feel like the ECA would have some sort of standard pistol for troops, probably still in 5.7 mm. I mentioned the VP70 because of its intended purpose as a Volkspistole, which seems like something the ECA might be using in their later desperate state. PP2000 is used by Igla trooper, but for some reason Boris uses a Makarov...I would say that's a personal pistol, but he's an enlisted man, right? Anyways, the MP443 sounds like the norm, or else the GSh-18 (although the GSh-18 has already been adopted, so more likely that). Yeah, China would probably stick with the QSZ-92. For GLA, I said Luger because of a VICE news video I watched on gun markets in Pakistan, which showed them still producing lots of the weapons. It would make sort of sense for them to use it, as they use old, antiquated equipment, and it definitely distinguishes them from the "imperialist heathens" (yeah, no one *reasonable* uses toggle-locks anymore).

There's no way you can call the 1911 old because a .45 is still a .45 and bare skin is still bare skin. Seriously, most of the pistols you mentioned here are not really that fancy but pretty decent.
The VP70 is relatively more expensive than the Glock 19, and phased out rifles (or even imported M16s) would make better Last Ditch weapons than pistols.


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8igDaddy8lake
post 21 Apr 2014, 0:02
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QUOTE (teslashark @ 20 Apr 2014, 13:17) *
There's no way you can call the 1911 old because a .45 is still a .45 and bare skin is still bare skin. Seriously, most of the pistols you mentioned here are not really that fancy but pretty decent.
The VP70 is relatively more expensive than the Glock 19, and phased out rifles (or even imported M16s) would make better Last Ditch weapons than pistols.


When I say old, I don't mean old as in "this is old, therefore it's completely useless" so much as "we like to stay current with our weapons, sort of." The US military seems to change weapons every couple of decades seemingly just for the sake of change - the M9 was a prime example of this, as the M1911 is still preferred over it many times. I could see them in use, just not as a standard pistol - unless it was an updated version, with double stack mags. The M9 less so, as there have been questions over its utility against fanatical terrorists (not fantastic stopping power, requiring multiple shots to incapacitate) - unless it was an updated .45 version.

The VP70 is more expensive than the Glock because it is out of production, and there weren't too many made (whereas roughly 8 out of 10 pistols are Glocks). With resumed production and an optimized design, it would be quite competitive, and perhaps better - it's accuracy was significantly higher in tests, and it can handle pretty much everything a Glock can. The ECA would still have Last Ditch rifles and stuff, I'm just making a sort of comparison with WWII Germany. At the end, they didn't just focus on rifles or pistols - they worked on both. Hence, the Volksturmgewehr and the Volkspistole programs. They may use other weapons if they had them, but chances are that their retreat would leave them under-equipped, and getting old guns from elsewhere would be more difficult than self-producing them.

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teslashark
post 21 Apr 2014, 2:57
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QUOTE (8igDaddy8lake @ 20 Apr 2014, 16:02) *
When I say old, I don't mean old as in "this is old, therefore it's completely useless" so much as "we like to stay current with our weapons, sort of." The US military seems to change weapons every couple of decades seemingly just for the sake of change - the M9 was a prime example of this, as the M1911 is still preferred over it many times. I could see them in use, just not as a standard pistol - unless it was an updated version, with double stack mags. The M9 less so, as there have been questions over its utility against fanatical terrorists (not fantastic stopping power, requiring multiple shots to incapacitate) - unless it was an updated .45 version.

The VP70 is more expensive than the Glock because it is out of production, and there weren't too many made (whereas roughly 8 out of 10 pistols are Glocks). With resumed production and an optimized design, it would be quite competitive, and perhaps better - it's accuracy was significantly higher in tests, and it can handle pretty much everything a Glock can. The ECA would still have Last Ditch rifles and stuff, I'm just making a sort of comparison with WWII Germany. At the end, they didn't just focus on rifles or pistols - they worked on both. Hence, the Volksturmgewehr and the Volkspistole programs. They may use other weapons if they had them, but chances are that their retreat would leave them under-equipped, and getting old guns from elsewhere would be more difficult than self-producing them.

The Kimber M45 MEUSOC is a 1911 subspecies that is relatively unchanged yet freshly produced and regularly used by the US military. 1911s are continuously produced by a ridiculously large number of producers, so their performance and cost efficiency could be reviewed any time, and there is no need to restart a specefic prduction.
Glocks are pretty much the same story: Still pumping out at commercial markets, plenty of licenced producers and knockoffs so production lines or blueprints could be shipped straight fom the United States. The VP70 is a model discontinued and almost no interchangeable parts with other HK weapons.


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Cobretti
post 21 Apr 2014, 3:07
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The M1911 was officially replaced as the US government had stopped ordering them after WWII came to an end...which meant that by the 1980s, the *newest* handguns were around 40 years old and had been heavily used since that time. There was also a lot of pressure to switch to the 9mm round used by other NATO countries as well. However, lately the USMC and SOCOM have received new build M1911s with modern components. The VP70 just wasn't a very good gun. I've never fired one, mind, but apparently the trigger pull was absolutely terrible. The Glock is apparently a much superior handgun in nearly every manner.


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MARS
post 21 Apr 2014, 7:08
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Well, the notion of NATO standardisation has gone out of the window as far as ROTR's concerned. We usually operated under the notion that both the ECA and the US kept some of these standardisations in place while abandoning others wherever it suited them. If the ECA is using variants of a 5.7mm for their firearms and 125mm smoothbores on their Leopards, the Americans might as well introduce a .45 handgun as their standard issue.
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8igDaddy8lake
post 24 Apr 2014, 0:11
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So many people hate on the VP70...I know where they are coming from, but for what it was designed for, it excelled (except the Cold War never got red hot, so, never really needed). I mean, it even says it in the name: Volkspistole 70. It was made during the Cold War as a weapon that could be mass produced in emergency. It was quite ahead of its time - a decade before Glocks, yet made of polymer with 18-round mags, and burst fire for the military version. It did have problems, especially with trigger pull and sights, but with some ironing out, they could be easily fixed for a new standard pistol. And it wasn't a "bad" gun, by any stretch. Bad commercial gun, yes, but not a half-bad military weapon for the time (more than double capacity of most contemporary sidearms, great accuracy, controllable, sturdy, and very reliable). Again, I'm not saying it would be a flat-out copy of the VP70, just an improved and updated version, chambered for 5.7 mm. It's unique, interesting, and works as an ECA weapon - updated and venerable. A Glock would make sense, yes, but what's the fun in that? Hell, maybe it could be some odd H&K and Glock hybrid, kind of like the FN-H&K22.
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Cobretti
post 27 Apr 2014, 15:55
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The thing is the VP70 was an interesting idea poorly executed, and today there's better designs in widespread production now that achieve what H&K sought.

Also, with the recent ROTR news update I'm reminded of an idea I had to elaborate on the navies of the ROTR-verse. I'll have to work on that one soon, got plenty of ideas I've already alluded to here.


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Svea Rike
post 27 Apr 2014, 16:15
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^Please do the aircraft carriers first so the whole debate can settle finally.


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Cobretti
post 27 Apr 2014, 18:55
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I was planning to go from bottom to top as far as navies are concerned but I already have everything planned out. Basically the Russians and Chinese have their own nuclear powered supercarriers (Chinese have the Liaoning and both likely have amphibious assault ships of some sort), the ECA uses the two Queen Elizabeth class conventional/STOVL carriers as well as two French nuclear/CATOBAR carriers based on the same design, plus Spanish, French, and Italian amphibious assault ships. The US has the most carriers overall, with the Wasp and America amphibious assault ships, Nimitz and Ford supercarriers, as well as light drone carriers that would serve a similar role to the WWII era light carriers. The large Spirit of Independence megaships are floating USAF bases (think Diego Garcia or some such that can be located anywhere on the globe) and theatre-level command centers.

This post has been edited by DerKrieger: 28 Apr 2014, 2:39


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8igDaddy8lake
post 27 Apr 2014, 23:35
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QUOTE (DerKrieger @ 27 Apr 2014, 10:55) *
The thing is the VP70 was an interesting idea poorly executed, and today there's better designs in widespread production now that achieve what H&K sought.


I just have it out there as something that the ECA might have, considering that they (and pretty much every other side) also have a lot of other things that seem somewhat anachronistic or silly for use in 20 - 30 years from now, like the MG3s on tanks and guardtowers, Harriers, and the Medic's sidearm (a Glock 18). A similar thing happened for the G11 in the RotR universe, in that a somewhat clumsy design (awesome and advanced, but ridiculously complex) got looked at again decades later and became standard (H&KFN22). If this was a game based on real life, I wouldn't bother.
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post 28 Apr 2014, 1:16
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QUOTE (8igDaddy8lake @ 27 Apr 2014, 18:35) *
I just have it out there as something that the ECA might have, considering that they (and pretty much every other side) also have a lot of other things that seem somewhat anachronistic or silly for use in 20 - 30 years from now, like the MG3s on tanks and guardtowers, Harriers, and the Medic's sidearm (a Glock 18). A similar thing happened for the G11 in the RotR universe, in that a somewhat clumsy design (awesome and advanced, but ridiculously complex) got looked at again decades later and became standard (H&KFN22). If this was a game based on real life, I wouldn't bother.


They don't use the Glock (unless it is capable of being a machine pistol). According to lore they use surplus machine pistols to protect themselves.


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8igDaddy8lake
post 28 Apr 2014, 4:33
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QUOTE (Karpet @ 27 Apr 2014, 20:16) *
They don't use the Glock (unless it is capable of being a machine pistol). According to lore they use surplus machine pistols to protect themselves.


In-game, the model appears to be a Glock 18, which is the machine pistol variant of the Glock 17. And lore-wise, that includes Glock 18s, TMP, Skorpions, Uzis, etc., with several of those mentioned by name.
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teslashark
post 28 Apr 2014, 5:58
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Might also throw the UCP or some variant in since the MP7 is used by the Pioneer. I've tried to see whether a Medic or an Igla's sidearm is better by ctrl-ing them to fire at friendly AI's Workers, and both are pretty bad.


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Svea Rike
post 28 Apr 2014, 7:34
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Hmm, Krieger, have you accounted for the Rise of the Reds timeline to be an alternate history sometime in the 90s/00s? I think this makes it a possibility that the F-35 JSF program was never conceived and the "stealth fighter" F-117 kept receiving upgrades instead of the U.S. war dept. making new designs all the time. Would coincide well with their damaged economy, no more new planes = better budget. IMHO it would be a lot more interesting reads if you just made some stuff up, like a fictional aircraft carrier class instead of using the Gerald R. Ford whose specs I can look up on Wikipedia. But hey, it's your fan-fic!


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MARS
post 28 Apr 2014, 9:06
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^ The existence of the F-35 was acknowledged, it's just that it's treated as a procurement disaster with a myriad of technical issues in-lore which is why the US chose to diversify the capabilities of the F-22 instead while the F-35 only entered limited service in the US military and was exported to the likes of Canada, Israel, Japan and Turkey.
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TornadoADV
post 28 Apr 2014, 12:16
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Basically meaning that the Raptors got their AtG FCS right at the start and the Grey Dragons didn't get their funding stolen to purchase more Lightnings. Really removes any reason to have the F-35, at least in the number we're trying to get them in this world.
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Cobretti
post 28 Apr 2014, 14:40
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QUOTE (Svea Rike Soldier @ 28 Apr 2014, 2:34) *
Hmm, Krieger, have you accounted for the Rise of the Reds timeline to be an alternate history sometime in the 90s/00s? I think this makes it a possibility that the F-35 JSF program was never conceived and the "stealth fighter" F-117 kept receiving upgrades instead of the U.S. war dept. making new designs all the time. Would coincide well with their damaged economy, no more new planes = better budget. IMHO it would be a lot more interesting reads if you just made some stuff up, like a fictional aircraft carrier class instead of using the Gerald R. Ford whose specs I can look up on Wikipedia. But hey, it's your fan-fic!


I have. I recall EA was pretty much considering Generals to be an alternate timeline by the time they were making Generals 2, given the dates of the game, the point of divergence was sometime in the early oughties. The plan is that the F-35 did indeed exist in some form, mainly for the US Marine Corps and Navy. In order to continue with their "high/low" fighter strategy, the Air Force managed to continue the F-22 program (or the F-22s production was not prematurely stopped) including the F-22C upgrade program, so USAF F-35A procurement was less than is currently planned. More or less, the USAF went with their original procurement plan where the F-22 replaced the F-15 while the F-35 replaced the F-16; about 300-400 F-22s and about 1200 F-35As. There's no feasible way to put a lift fan in a F-22 or to make it carrier capable so the Navy and USMC continued buying F-35 variants. However, the US Navy is the lead customer thus far of the new F/A-24 Rapier that is entering service in the 2040s. The F-117 upgrade was a stopgap due to the need for a stealth attacker against the GLA in a time when the F-35 was just entering service; its possible that a few F-117Bs may still be flying during the Russo-European War but for the most part they've been replaced by FQ-47s, F-35s, and Auroras.

Don't worry, there will be a fair bit of real life stuff, as well as some new designs and who's to say the real life based weapons will be exactly like their 2010's predecessors?


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