Since 1.87 is (probably) around the last few stages of being released as a polished full version (Public beta tells me the devs are close; could be wrong though), and 2.0 is coming right after 1.87, I figure it's time to start talking about the biggest change that is coming to 2.0: the inclusion of subfaction generals for all of the factions in the game.

I wanted to open up this discussion because each subfaction is balanced around certain unique aspects of a faction, and are geared towards very different play styles. I am curious to see how these subfactions are going to be balanced. Note that a lot of this is just speculation, what we know about the generals at this moment, what I've seen on stream and my own personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, not trying to fish for info or give any suggestions, just curious on balance within the game. (If my questions end up asking a little too much, you guys (the devs) can just say that it can't be answered at this moment.)

With that said, lets begin.

USA
The U.S. faction in the game is known for having a micro heavy, generalist play style, being a jack-of-all-trades, master of none faction. They're reliant on speed, mobility, and map control, using their quick units to scout out the map and harass the enemy. Also has a lot of drone weapons in their army, HKs, AT drones, sentry drones, etc. Probably one of the harder factions for me to use, simply because they require so much more micro than the other factions.

General Bradley (Tank Command [Powerhouse])
Bradley is one of the generals that I'm personally eager to try when 2.0 comes out. He strikes me as having heavier, more armored vehicles, while still having most of the mobility the U.S. faction is known for. Tank Command the only subfaction that has the Paladin Tank and the Patriot SAM Vehicle, the two vehicles that are perfect for a tank platoon; Paladins are damage sponges for other tanks, especially when upgraded with Composite Armor, and Patriot SAMs can protect Bradley's tanks from air attacks. I can already imagine a tactic where people call Starlifters in, load them up with Paladins, Patriots, Vulcans, and some repair drones then quickly getting them to an undefended side of an enemy base. Would be a nightmare for a player to all of a sudden see a tank platoon rushing their unprotected flank. With that said, I'm curious on a few things:
1. Is Tank Command still going to need a lot of micro? Does it require less micro than the other two U.S. subfactions? Tank Command definitely sounds like its going to be more direct than the other two subfactions, but given that its a U.S. subfaction, I assume it will still require a lot of microing compared to other subfactions.
2. Is Bradley more of a mid to late game subfaction? I'm not sure if he is as effective as the other two at harassment early game, given that Bradley IFVs are slower than humvees. The faction feels like its either wait until T1 and go direct assault with Crusaders and Vulcans, or get to T2 and go steamrolling with Paladins to support your armor divisions.
3. How is this faction going to be able to maintain its momentum against heavy armor or artillery factions in the late game? Despite the fact that Bradley's vehicles are heavier and better armored than the other two, I doubt he'd be able to hold up too long against dedicated armor factions like Russia, not mentioning that his slower vehicles are more vulnerable to giant splash damage attacks like howitzer shellings and FOABs.

General Thorn (Special Operations [Subversive])
If your main faction is the U.S. and you love to harass your enemy constantly, then Thorn is definitely for you. Based from what I've heard, his infantry corps is supposedly the best within the U.S. faction, having a large variety of spec ops troops that can serve a lot of different functions. We've already seen a few units going to Thorn; Green Berets are essentially stronger Rangers, Delta Force Operators are heavy support infantry, capable of long range harassment with their mortars, Pathfinders are snipers with recon capability, and SEALs can tear a whole base apart if left unchecked. Thorn can definitely wreak havoc upon the enemy if you use his units effectively. That being said:
1. What's Thorn's primary tactic? Harassment? Sabotage? I feel the subfaction is supposed to be good at sabotage and sneak attacks, given that it is a faction of covert ops, but most of his known units don't have stealth (only the pathfinder out of all his known units), and he doesn't have anything that is 'annoying', like the ability to disable buildings or steal cash.
2. Is Thorn one of those 'win in the early game or you lose' type of generals? He strikes me as one of those generals that won't be able to last in the late game unless his enemy is careless. I think he still has the standard units like Crusaders and such, but it really won't last if the enemy techs up and starts deploying really powerful units, and his spec ops infantry can easily be torn apart by anti-infantry units, which aren't terribly expensive to make.

General Griffon (Air Force [Faction Strength X2])
Griffon is an odd one for me. His speciality is U.S. air superiority, which for me is strange because I haven't really seen any battle in Doomy's streams that have been won with strictly aircraft. That being said, the U.S. faction currently doesn't have most of the unique upgrades and aircraft Griffon has, and I've seen some players do well using the current U.S. air force as a supplement to other forces, so I'll assume that it can only get better from there. Raptors and Auroras will be making a comeback, better than ever. I can't wait. A few questions about Griffon though:
1. How is he going to deal with large amounts of AA? It wouldn't take a player much time or money to build lots of AA, and I'm pretty sure the Guardian Angel TMD isn't going to be enough to stop AA, since it's not only a Rank 5 GP, a good player can simply order their units to focus fire on something else. I'm worried that things like Grumbles, Twin Fangs, Urals, Wotans, and huge groups of AA will take away the only advantage Griffon has.
2. What is Griffon's tactic in the early game? I'm kinda assuming that a player using this subfaction would probably rush for an airfield and harass, but again, it would be easy to expect it and build a bunch of AA around your base to shut down further air harassment.
3. Out of all the generals, is Griffon the most micro heavy of all of them? Or does that go to Thorn? I'm not sure which general requires more micro to play well; Griffon would definitely need a lot of micro to keep up air raids and make sure aircraft are being as effective as possible, but Thorn requires just as much babysitting with his units.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
China
Spam, spam, and more spam. This faction is all about overwhelming numbers. Their units are individually weaker than the other factions, but they become strong when they start grouping up (which they will, given how cost effective their units are). I personally love this faction because of its production capabilities, propaganda support, and the fact that it has large amounts of napalm, EMP, and nuclear weaponry to use.

General Mau (Special Weapons [Powerhouse])
Mau has caught my eye, mainly because he takes China's tendency to use EMP, napalm, and nuclear weaponry and turns it up even further. He gets the Han Gunship, one of the most versatile and powerful aircraft I've seen (IMO) in game, the Nuke Cannon, still as destructive as ever, the Shenlong, basically an overlord with dual flamethrowers, and much more. What I'm curious about:
1. What tactics does Mau use? Based from what units we've seen so far that are going to him, he feels like a general that would stay back and nuke/burn/EMP his enemies into dust using his powerful artillery (Nuke Cannon, Nukeneer).
2. Apparently the mini gunner team is going to Mau; does that mean he has more than just the nukes, EMP, and Napalm weapons? I got this from the wiki; probably unreliable, but it makes it seem like Mau is basically getting any advanced weapon technology China has alongside the usual nukes and napalm.

General Jin (Secret Police [Subversive])
Jin essentially takes the propaganda and electronic warfare aspect of China and develops it further, from what I've seen. Based on what he has (Radio Intercepts, Banshee ECM, Propaganda Airship), a player can find out what the enemy is doing, what they're planning, and disrupt it with propaganda buffed forces. General Jin would definitely be fit for a player who wants to know their enemy and plan ahead. Supposedly he is getting better propaganda; either that means he is the only one who gets the Subliminal Messaging upgrade, or he already has it by default and has an upgrade that upgrades his speaker towers further. Questions:
1. What's this subfaction's play style supposed to be like? When I hear 'Propaganda and Electronic Warfare', I could speculate a lot of things; hacking enemy vehicles and structures, disabling control over enemy armies (a la Radio Station Communication Disruption), supporting your armies with even better propaganda (AKA Glorious Red Army Speeches. XD), etc.
2. What kind of forces does General Jin have at his disposal? Information about your enemy would be pretty useless if you don't have the forces to act on it. I know that Jin has the standard Chinese armory (Battlemasters, Gattling tanks, etc.), but I'm not sure if he is getting anything else regarding new units.

General Chen (Red Army [Faction Strength X2])
The moment I saw the title of the general and what he put emphasis on, I instantly got excited for 2.0. Chen is another one of the generals that I can't wait to use, mainly because he's a general that I feel will have a lot of strength in direct assaults, given that he supposedly gets nationalism by default and gets the patriotism upgrade to further increase his horde bonus, as well as the fact that he is the only one who can build Overlords, the perfect meat shield to spearhead assaults with. His basic strategy is basically China's strategy taken up to a whole new level: overwhelm the enemy with massive numbers and powerful weapons. Questions:
1. Would you guys say that Chen is probably the general that prefers direct attack over all else? Given Chen's theme, it wouldn't surprise me if players of this subfaction eschewed most of the other possible tactics in favor of just attacking the enemy directly and relentlessly.
2. How would this faction deal with factions that specialize in sneak attacks or artillery? I imagine generals like General Charles and most of the GLA would have no trouble exploiting the fact that Chen is reliant on direct assaults to win, using Howitzer Positions in Charles' case, and hijackers, rocket buggies, and grads in the GLA's case to destroy much of Chen's attack groups.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GLA
Fast, sneaky, and reliant on devious tactics, the GLA are a very difficult faction to wipe out completely. Their armies can quickly go from one place to another using their tunnel network, and the fact that many of their production buildings have tunnels built in makes this even more obvious. I will admit that I don't really play this faction too much, since being fast and sneaky is not by play style, but I will admit that they're pretty strong; I've lost a lot of units fighting GLA AI from a well placed Overwatch, and their suicide units are REALLY goddamn annoying. Doesn't help that now in 1.87 PB with an upgrade their suicide units run as fast as an Olympic track runner. XD

General Sulaymaan (Warlord [Powerhouse])
Okay, just to get this out of the way, really? Warlord General? Not to insult the devs, but that title is kinda lame IMO. Putting that aside though, Sulaymaan is definitely the hard hitter in the GLA. Despite not knowing what units are in store for him, I can already tell he has more muscle than the other two GLA subfactions, given that he gets the mercenaries and the marauder tanks, two very strong units in the GLA arsenal. Based from what I've seen, he's essentially a beefier GLA, having stronger infantry and tanks, while still being incredibly mobile via the tunnel network. That combo make me curious on a few things:
1. What's his play style like? Sulaymaan strikes me as being a heavier version of the current GLA, while still maintaining GLA map control a la tunnel networks. This makes me think that he can do a combination of sneak attacks and direct assault at the same time, but I could be wrong.
2. What's his theme supposed to be? His theme of being a 'Warlord' is kinda vague; if someone tells me I'm facing the Red Army General, I'm expecting unit spam, for example. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to expect out of Sulaymaan.

General Ibrahiim (Bio Command [Subversive])
Ah, I had a feeling that there would a successor to Dr. Thrax and his toxin legacy. I'm not surprised that Ibrahiim is the subversive part of the GLA, given that toxins are great for area denial, not so much for direct assault. Based from what I heard, the scud launcher will be going to this subfaction, and will be altered to become closer to the Topol-M in regards to how it attacks. A toxic missile of doom... ouch. XD Anyway, this general definitely sounds like the general that would use biological warfare to weaken their enemies, slowly chipping away attacking armies until there's little left. Questions:
1. What kind of tricks does Ibrahiim have to use against armor centered subfactions? Biological warfare is more than just spraying a bunch of Anthrax everywhere; viruses, plagues, etc. also count. I imagine there's gotta be something for Ibrahiim regarding vehicles; heavy and superheavy tanks won't give a sh*t to anthrax after all.
2. What's Ibrahiim's play style like? I can already see that this subfaction can make the enemy's life hell simply because he has so many area denial options, but I'm curious how Ibrahiim moves in for the kill. Anthrax bomb over the enemy production buildings, I guess?

General Yusuuf (Terror Cell [Faction Strength X2])
This general is an interesting one. Yusuuf's theme is essentially ambushes with stealthed units, powerful suicide attacks, and surprise attacks. Basically the GLA theme taken up a notch. Bomb trucks and terrorists in their current incarnation are already goddamned annoying already, I shudder to think what players will do combining that with everything else Yusuuf is getting. That being said:
1. How balanced is he regarding scouts and stealth detectors? His theme sounds like it is really reliant on stealth and surprise attacks, which I suspect could be easily ruined by units like Listening Outposts and Bloodhounds. I'm worried players might not be able to rely on ambushes if they get detected all the time.
2. What's his play style like? Much like Ibrahiim, surprise attacks and stealth will cause a lot of problems for enemy armies, but the moment T2 hits and the enemy starts deploying heavier weapons and better stealth detectors, I'm not sure how this faction will survive, unless they've harassed the enemy to the breaking point.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russia
RUSSIA STRONK! XD Seriously, though, this faction is what happens when a faction basically says "Screw speed, firepower and armor all the way!". Their armor divisions are the best in the game, getting even stronger in the late game once you get the Ursa Division GP, giving you access to the Blackbear Sentinel Tank, a really, really powerful variant of the regular Sentinel Tank. Their air force is pretty good (Though all of the helicopters in the Russian air force are Orlov only), and their infantry are pretty decent IMO. Shock troopers in particular are my favorite. Anti tank uncrushable infantry with tons of health and a (GP) Tesla gun? Heck yeah!

General Aleksandr (Advanced Weapons [Powerhouse])
Ah, yes, General Aleksandr, or as I like to call him, the 'Mad Scientist General'. This guy basically gets all of the cool toys that Russia gets, such as tesla weapons, shock troopers, coilguns, and Golem tanks, which are a Sentinel replacement (Less health and damage but is amphibious, immune to radiation, EMP, and toxins, and has the Shtora protection system.). I personally am looking forward to using this general, simply because I want to... shock my enemies into submission. (Bad pun intended. XD) Anyway...
1. Since tesla weapons and coilguns are sorta his thing, does that mean he'll have more units that are focused around that? I have noticed that his Tesla Tank replaces the Buratino (How on earth a mobile tesla vehicle can somehow clear structures is beyond me lol), and he is supposedly getting a basic tank that replaces the kodiak, armed with a coilgun. What's next, helicopters with tesla coils AND railguns? XD
2. How does Aleksandr play out in game? Aleksandr I imagine would probably play differently than the current Russia faction; he got some cool new toys, but he doesn't get nukes, helicopters, or VDV drops.

General Orlov (Rapid Deployment [Subversive])
This guy is probably the general many players will go to, mainly because he's the one that is getting the entire helicopter arsenal that many Russian players are using right now. Hellions, Hunchbacks, and of course, HINDS. (to quote Doomy: "Press 1 for Hind, Press 2 for Hind, Press Hind for Hind!" Laughed my butt off when I heard that. XD). It looks like he's essentially Russia's special forces and strong helicopter arsenal rolled into one general. Spetznaz, VDV, and powerful helicopters. Can't wait. Alright, questions:
1. He doesn't have access to nukes in 2.0 (Those go to Zhukov), but has access to the standard Russian arsenal alongside his special forces; does that mean he can be very flexible in terms of overall strategy? Since Russia's regular arsenal is already pretty strong, I imagine it wouldn't be hard for him to switch from sneaking powerful infantry around to simply using said infantry alongside heavy tanks in a frontal assault. Some of the other generals (Thorn, Chen, Griffon) IMO will start losing their effectiveness once the enemy is able to counter their tactics; Orlov can switch between different tactics and won't be stuck if the enemy brings counters.
2. What tactic is recommended for Orlov? His arsenal is faster than the other Russian subfactions, though I'm not sure how good he is at harassment. I'm not sure if a player should harass or should go for map control with this general, given that Russian armor is pretty good at holding the line.

General Zhukov (Tactical Ballistics [Faction Strength X2])
Zhukov is definitely going to be an interesting general to play with when 2.0 comes out. His focus on 'tactical ballistics' is kinda vague, but given what units are going to him and what I've heard, it looks like he's essentially Russia's heavy artillery general. He's the only one with access to Topol-M launchers and Missile Silos, both of which are essentially defense breakers. He's also going to be getting artillery defense, a unique T2 AA, and the compression missile upgrade, which increases missile range. Basically Zhukov is all about strong missiles and artillery. That being said:
1. Why is Tactical Ballistics known as Russia's faction strength? I'm kinda curious on this part because Russia didn't really strike me as the ballistics faction. They come off more as the heavy armor faction IMO.
2. Since he gets no mobile helicopters, but has access to nuclear weapons, does that mean his play style is going to be more focused around boxing your enemy in and then breaking their defenses? I imagine that players that use Zhukov would likely try to push their enemy back, mass forces outside the base, use a nuke to weaken the defenses, then move in with the troops. At least that's what I imagine people will do with this general
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECA
The ECA is a very strange faction, balance wise. Part of it is because of the fact that the game rewards you more for being an aggressor, not a defender. (Ranking up to get GPs, expansion to supply points, etc.). The ECA are probably the hardest faction to master, alongside the U.S., mainly because their primary play style is very different compared to the other 4 factions in the game. That being said, however, they do a damn good job defending themselves. Strong defenses, strong artillery, and lots of cool tricks like tear gas, commandos, smart bombs, etc. ECA has more mine variants than any other faction, being able to completely lock down a zone with tons of mines. The protocols are even cooler, and are when you can turn the tide on the enemy. Manticore for tank lovers, Pandora for the deadly neutron weapons, nerve gas, cryo lasers, and the solar apocalypse upgrade, and the Venom for when you want super powerful infantry and two very powerful units that can (with good player control) turn the tide of a battle in favor of the ECA.

General Wolfgang (Mechanized Assault [Powerhouse])
Wolfgang is the ECA general that I can't wait to use in 2.0. Based on from what is known about him, he essentially gives up some of the ECA's defense potential (still pretty good defense though, I think) for much better harassment and direct assault options. Compared to the other two subfactions, Wolfgang's faster and more aggressive, and open up more tactical options for a player that picks him (I think). Jagdmammuts are specialized tank destroyers, and he's supposedly getting replacements for the Lynx APC and the Pandur IFV. A couple things I'm wondering:
1. Is his units supposed to be as slow as the other two ECA subfactions? The only unit that we've seen so far is the Jagdmammuts, and while they're decent tank destroyers (better with Gas Ignition Rounds), they're pretty slow for a general that is supposedly more aggressive and better at harassment.
2. What is his strategy regarding large scale attacks? When I see the term 'Mechanized Assault' I kinda assume 'blitzkrieg', basically lightning fast assaults, but the only unit that's going to him is so slow that I'm wondering how on earth a player utilizes him. Not mentioning that I have no idea whether or not he's going to get a unit that functions like a meat shield for other units. (Most ECA units have pretty bad HP; Some of Wolfgang's units kinda has to be an exception if he's going to be able to have a direct assault, otherwise it would be easy to shut down his offensives. Just my opinion.)

General Charles (Fire Support [Subversive])
If you like to shell your enemies before they even come close to your base, this is the general for you. Charles is interesting as a general, reliant on heavy artillery and aircraft to destroy the enemy, essentially killing the enemy before they can even come close to you. He'll be getting the Harrier, Claymore Howitzer, Mortar Track, Goshawk, and Heavy Sniper, all units that kill far from enemy reach. What I'm questioning about is:
1. Isn't this general going to have problems trying to go on the offense compared to the other ECA generals? He isn't going to be getting the super strong defenses to base crawl like Willem, and he doesn't have the offensive capabilities of Wolfgang. He can bombard invading armies to dust, but how is he going to use that to destroy the enemy?
2. Is he one of those generals that you'd pick if you were in a 2v2 or something like that? Charles feels like a general that is better at supporting an offensive campaign underway, rather than trying to start one himself. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting, given that most of his units are good at destroying unit blobs. (Claymores do little damage against buildings; You need so many to destroy one building. XD)

General Willem (Royal Guard [Faction Strength X2])
This guy is basically a turtler's dream. Willem has some of the very strong defenses of the ECA, including the Gun Turret and the really powerful Bulldog turret. He'll also be getting a stronger replacement of the Skyshield Battery. The lore mentions him using tunnels and bunker complexes, but I'm not sure if that will make it into the game or not. Willem can base crawl his enemy to death; it basically becomes a war of attrition, tiring the enemy out until the enemy makes a mistake/is exhausted, which is when Willem takes advantage of that. A few questions:
1. Is his primary strategy going to be base crawling? Or does he have some other options? I can imagine that a lot of players would probably be bored to death playing this general, simply because this general from the looks of it relies on base crawling the most, which I've seen happen on stream. It looks really boring. (Mizo, you main ECA, right? You probably know how boring base crawling is, given the time and energy it takes...)
2. How is he going to deal with artillery factions? I can already tell that his defenses are the only thing stopping an army cold, but artillery factions like Zhukov and Mau could just crack his defenses and move in. Bulldog turrets can deal with them, but they do have a pretty long cool down, and it wouldn't be long before they send more artillery.
3. Wouldn't it be possible for most factions to outeco Willem? I have no idea if Willem can take map control easily, and ECA's secondary eco sucks ass, so it wouldn't be hard for a faction to simply outeco a turtling Willem player, unless Willem has some good harassment abilities to destroy enemy secondary eco.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those are my thoughts on all of the subfactions for all 5 factions. Let the 2.0 discussion begin.

It's nice to see a post like this when all you get recently are shitposting multiplayer nonsenses.

USA actually have lots of nice things to do with enemy tanks and less so against artillery and base defenses. AT drones for example, destroy Sentinels unless they're properly escorted.

I think Bradley would have something else other than just tanks when it is necessary , even if he is a tank general. Obviously not an aircraft, but a unique infantry or artillery vehicle shouldn't be impossible.

Griffon would probably have ground units dedicated to the support of the aircrafts above them, so I don't think he'll be a general that got crippled the moment his airfield toasted or when there are a large group of AAAs. Possibly, his jet will have something that will let them ignore defenses when needed like Goliath.

He's also the one who'll get the WASP hive, so a ground assault with an airforce general doesn't seem to be impossible if the situation requires.

Jin, I think would be the one to get spec ops infantry or even a sniper unit. That would fit him, as his army are about acting fast, shutting down the enemy instead of trying to out-match them toe to toe. Him having better infantry instead of heavier tanks would fit the theme really well.

Ibrahim's is Bio command, not toxin general. It means, he's most definitely not an anti-infantry yet useless vs everything else. Who to say, that there won't be a new kind of acid like weapon that corrodes tank armor? I imagine that he'll have a lots of debuff weapons, that may not outright destroy the enemy but severely weaken them. He'll control the map with area denial weapon.

Yusuuf will be the only one to get angry mobs and battle bus, so yes there is something other than stealth and suicidal units. But his direct assaults would probably not as effective if he hasn't weaken the enemy before.

Zhukov would most likely play like vanilla Russia minus the helicopters. Probably because it's a better idea to merge tank with ballistic missiles into one subfaction than leaving it as it is.

Wolfgang would, I imagine him being more infantry oriented rather than heavy armored vehicles. Combined arms, mechanized infantry supported by leopards and mobile artillery that is. It is speculated long ago that he'll get Panzer Grenadiers as replacement for basic infantry, and probably more heavy infantry units. The Jagdmammut is an odd one, but I think it's because he doesn't have gun turret. The Jagdmamut probably wouldn't be a unit that move along with your main forces, but stay behind to hold off a check point.

Charles is going to get Challenger, which might possibly be treated as a heavy tank rather than medium. He might have defenses that prioritized in long range damage or off map support over protection. It might turned out better than we think. Something similar to GLA overwatch ability wouldn't be out of the fire support theme.

For Willem, the only way I see that this general will be less frustrating to play as and fight against would be that his theme got expanded into like said, logistic. Having a way to deal with the money and reinforcements problem would allow him to play a more active role without increasing the offensive power of his units, rather than just "I HAVE TO SPAM GUN TURRETS AND TELECOM TOWERS TO SURVIVE" just like now.

Side note for a TS: You, sir, can definetely compete with Leo Tolstoy and his "War and Peace"

Yeah, the post is long, but it is speculation about 2.0 subfactions, and I wanted it to sound as constructive as possible. I know that players, testers, and devs are going to read this, so I figured; pack tons of details and questions. Questions and feedback aren't bad, after all. (Unless it's just straight sh*tposting, in which case, it is bad. XD)

Okay, time to deconstruct and analyze everything here:



Bradley does get the generic U.S. air force to support his armor platoons, which isn't too bad from what I've seen. I'm not saying that he doesn't have a backup plan in case things go south, but he suffers IMO from the same problem that Griffon does: if your enemy brings huge amounts of anti tank units, he loses out on his speciality; armor platoons. Aleksandr's Shock Troopers for example would be able to stop entire tank platoons cold, which means that Bradley loses his advantages.



You do have a point here. Unlike Granger in ZH, Griffon still has access to the generic U.S. armor divisions. That means he can still produce Crusaders, Humvees, etc, so he can still support his aircraft on the ground if need be. My concern though comes from the fact that based on what I've seen on stream, T2 heavy AA almost always has a large escort going around with it, so ground forces will have a hard time taking down T2 AA. A lot of strong aircraft are reliant on air fields to maintain bombing runs; given how large the air fields are and how fragile they are, it wouldn't be hard for the enemy to either sneak in and demolish it, or straight up bum rush it and destroy it, which leads to Griffon losing his main advantage.

The WASP hive drones do get ignored by T2 AA, so it does prove to be handy dealing with enemy blobs and T2 AA, but like I said, T2 AA usually have escorts, which do include T1 AA, which can kill the drones. (Tunguskas, Gattling Tanks, etc.). Good point though with WASP hives making ground assault a possible tactic.



The Chinese Secret Police are essentially propaganda specialists, hacking experts, surveillance, and covert ops all rolled up into one group. I think that's what the team is going for with General Jin. He is supposedly getting better infantry divisions, but I need someone like a tester or dev to confirm that. I personally think that having his hackers function more than just secondary eco would fit Jin's motif of having a division of hacking experts to wreak havoc via electronic warfare, but I think that comes a little too close to being a suggestion.



I did know that Ibrahiim isn't going to be using 'just' toxins, considering that would really cause balance problems regarding factions relying on lots of armor divisions. What I'm curious about is what he is going to use regarding chemical and biological weapons. Is he going to use an acid bomb to erode his enemies armor divisions? Does he have a type of plague weapon that greatly debuffs enemy units? Stuff like that. Also, the combat drugs GP feels like it would thematically fit with Ibrahiim, given that combat drugs is a bio thing, but I'm not sure if that's exclusive to him or if all GLA get that power.



That's what I mean. He can do direct assaults, but he's going to have trouble meeting them head on unless they've been weakened. That's where my worries come in; on stream, people usually have scouts that can see large portions of the map all over the place, and army groups almost always have stealth detectors, meaning that ambushes and sneak attacks won't work unless you can destroy the stealth detectors (Good luck, it's usually near the middle of the group itself).



I mean, it is up to the devs in the end, I just want the reasoning behind why Russia's speciality is tactical ballistics and not something like heavy armor divisions or something like that.



When I saw that Wolfgang is a German general, who is going to be the aggressive ECA subfaction, I instantly thought "tank blitzkriegs!"(Hope I didn't offend anyone here; I probably did. XD). When I hear the term "Mechanized Assault" I assumed he would, yes, have more heavy infantry, but also have some strong, beefy vehicles to function as a meat shield and the spearhead to an attack. Infantry alone would be easily torn apart, especially given that anti-infantry units aren't that expensive to make. You do make a good point about the Jagdmammut; no gun turret means that he needs something that can tear vehicles apart from far away, so it does make some sense, and its mobile, compared to the Gun Turret.



I don't know anything about the Challenger Tank, so that's up in the air. If his defenses functioned like off map howitzers or something like that, I would be less worried about him defending himself. My concern though is that Charles from what I know so far can't mount an effective strategy to defeat his enemy because most of his units are used to support an attack, not be the attack. Claymores for example suck ass against structures; they're better at shelling unit blobs, which tells me that they're more oriented towards supporting another attack force. I can sorta see him not being used in 1v1s, but be great in 2v2s. Could be wrong though.



It would make more sense for his theme to be expanded into logistics and defense, but as I said earlier, it is up to the devs at the end of the day, and Willem is supposed to be the ECA faction's tactic taken to a whole new level. Base crawling is a viable strategy, but I doubt most ECA players will go for that strategy, given how time and energy it takes to do it. It makes sense in a way; Willem is basically turtling so hard that the other enemy tires out and gives up, but it's not going to be fun for either side, and I have no idea on how to improve on it without having to alter his theme.

Bradley:
1. Will probably need a little less micro.
2. Kind of, yes.
3. He has a few tricks yet unrevealed for that purpose.

Thorn:
1. Versatility and sabotage. Some of his units will play up the trickery part.
2. Wait and see.

Griffon:
1. Auroras... and some other stuff.
2. The same you already know.
3. I'd say Thorn is more micro-intense.

Mau:
1. Foreward attack and overwhelming firepower with something for every part of the job.
2. That's incorrect.

Jin:
1. Wait and see, Jin is probably the least revealed General.
2. See #1.

Chen:
1. No, Chen has some tricks that allow versatility in a different sense than just brutal attacks like Mau.
2. Build moar tanks!

Sulaymaan:
We didn't make up "Warlord General", EA did.
1. Frontal attacks, Oil Sabotage is his and he is the reason why Tunnel Defenders were removed from Tunnels.
2. Expect "bought" units. Mercs are one, but most of his arsenal is taken from actual armies for money, in turn making him stronger so he gets more money and can buy more stuff (lore only).

Ibrahiim:
Yes, subversive is about "mean tricks" which Ibrahiim fits.
1. Acid weapons.
2. He has the Scud Launcher for one, but it's not his only artillery

Yusuuf:
1. Destroy the stealth detectors, simple
2. Intentionally. If Yusuuf can't beat the enemy quickly, he's fairly likely to loose.

Aleksandr:
1. Ogres upgrade same as Golems. Otherwise wait and see.
2. More focus on Shock Troopers. Put them into his super-APC and roll down the hills. Also other stuff not yet revealed.

Orlov:
Probably the weirdest subversive General.
1. Yes he's more versatile than the other two.
2. Send in choppers full of Spetznaz and beat the enemy into submission. Apply sabotage tactics where needed.

Zhukov:
1. Big splashy kaboom is kinda Russia's deal, along with good tanks.
2. Absolutely nobody ever said Zhukov has no helis. He does. They're just not Orlovs.

Wolfgang:
1. He's not known for speed, no. Mainly because he has lots of infantry that hit hard but are...slow.
2. No, mechanised means full incorporation of infantry with vehicles/vehicular support. His focus isn't the classic TANKZ so much as infantry WITH tanks.

Charles:
1. Challengers for one, a tank you'd expect for Russia. Generally he slowly creeps up and then bombs people into submission. Subversive because he has a few confusion-fu options and the versatile Harriers and Goshawks.
2. Possible? Also, Claymores are mainly against vehicle blobs.

Willem:
1. Kind of. The idea is that you place defences near the enemy to wall them in.
2. Counter-artillery.
3. Wait and see.

I wish we can see units like the BTR APC and the BM-30 Smerch for Russia faction and the Centauro (wich I hope is a glass canon unit with the mobility of a Pandur) for ECA.

Related to Thorn and Orlov, I've been curious for sometime which subfaction will have to make bigger use of/be more reliant by nature on their infantry (and which will be better in terms of statistics). I'm taking a guess that it will be Thorn, but as entire arsenals are not yet revealed, I'll be holding my breath. Between all the subfactions they are the two which make the most mention of specialized infantry. I wouldn't be fitting any of the Chinese generals under the category since numbers are their main forte. I'd be surprised if any of them get infantry that could beat the likes of Thorn's and Orlov's.

So it's confirmed. Great.



BTR is already a thing for Orlov, I think. But smerch is.......

I'd be surprised it they don't - infantry has always been the remit of China. And by that I mean cost-effective infantry. Sure Thorn's infantry will beat China's infantry one for one, but that is irrelevant - China is supposed to win dollar for dollar if they can maintain the horde bonus. Unless we are talking about specialized infantry which deals AOE damage - then cost effectiveness becomes less relevant without proper micro.

Way to go, OP. This is the closest we can get to discussing 2.0, without being accused of fishing. I really enjoyed reading this.
As for Russian helis, I think the Havoc will still pack one hell of a punch. The thing is, Havoc is not the Hind we all got used to. And IIRC, there'll be a replacement for the Hunchback for Zhukov and Aleksandr.

USA

General Bradly :

- Imagine the versatility of his tanks in combination with the defualt US airforce and infantry rosters, all are versatile in their own rights. He puts more emphasis on ground units in particularly tanks, and tank combat. His approach is not Russia's approach to tank warefare, but his playstyle revolves around winning tank battles in the most cost efficent of ways using a combination of well rounded tanks and widowmakers. He retains the mid game prowerss of the USA, while having a boasted Late game though I beleive it willl taper off during super late game, compared to the likes of tank focused Russia playstyles or Chinese Spam.


General Thron :

- Out of all the factions , Thorn will probably have the strongest early game presence, and map control out of the 3 USA generals due to the aaccess to elite infantry like SpecOps forces of Green Berets, Deltas and other elite infantry. He's the type of general that's going to be hard to play mainly during late game, because all of your engagements need alot of thought put into them, from every move you make, rather than having your decisions be reactionary based. This makes him the hardest to play not only due to micro requirement but also good game sense on what toe execute. That doesn't mean he is lacking in firepower it's just that his firepower is different. Under the right hands he's going to be EXTREMELY Brutal.

General Griffon :

- The only General in the game who will be capable to win with only an airforce openning, and disregard building a warfactory completely. What makes him different from Granger is that you still have access to tanks, mainly Crusaders but they're good in their own rights as meatsheilds. On top of that, his air arsenal scales ridiculously well into late game, to the point that if Griffon starts to operate on more than 3 airfields, the enemy is doomed. You all have a glympse of some of his toys like stealth comanches , nighthawks and vipers but there are many things hidden that will truely make him the Airforce supremist.


China :

General Mau :

- Mau focuses on heavy firepower and BOOM. This makes him ideal in war of attritions due to his wide array of special weapons , most notabely the EMP and Nuke weapons. His Artilery arsenal will probably be superior to the 2 due to the access of nukaneers and nuke cannons , as well as having his own heavy tank , the shenlong. In terms of versatility he has alot of it, the generic CHinese spam, the strong airforce, and a good artillery plus support arsenal at his disposal. He's probably going to be catered towards late game.


General Jin :

- I can't say much about Jin due to his information not revealed to the public. What's revealed is that he's the Secret Police General and he specializes in Electronic Warfare and Propeganda. Make that as you want, but what I can only tell you is that JIn will be the most interesting Chinese General due to his subversive nature. He retains the generic Chinese spam capabilities, but does not sepcialize in niether heavy firepower, nor heavy spam. His gameplay approach in fact, will be really unlike other generals in the game.


General Chen :

- He's going to be the lag general. His late game capabilities shall win him the game instantly through scorching his opponent's computers to ashes. He will force other players to buy better RAMs, CPUs , GPUs and all this good stuff. In all seriousness though , see how spammy China is right now? Multiply that by 10 , and add helixes and overlords in the mix. You hae a scary faction that is overall very balanced in early mid and late game. He puts China Spam on a whole different scale. His units are not represented as blips on map, but as huge de-formed blobby shapes of whatever color the player picked for him.


GLA :


General Sulayman :

- Sulayman is the general with all of the heavy weapons of the GLA. He forge subtelty and long range harassment for a more direct approach in warfare. His attrition war is incredible thanks to Sabotage. He will have a distinct arsenal from the normal generic GLA unit roster, due to his love for heavy weaponary and brutality..


General Ibrahim :


- Ibrahim is the Biochemical general, NOT TOXIN. Do not be fooled. There are alot of Bio Chemical weapons with a wide varaiety of effects. He has stuff that can melt tanks . and render infantry warfare against him nigh useless. Scud Launchers will be his core, and they're not gonna be your typical artillery unit.


General Yusuf :

- General Yusuf is probably the closest general to the generic GLA playstyle , since their theme is subtelty and ambushes ( not Quad Spamming ). This guy got alot of tools that will make all kinds of factions cry, whether they go defense focuses, infantry focused, tank focused or air focuses, Yusuf have everything to counter them in a unique way. He is a less direct combat guy but more of the type of guy who would slip through defenses unnoticed to then tear your base from the inside out.


Russial :


Zhukov :

- If you thought 440 Mstas were bad , wait unitl you meet this guy. Lets just say Zhukov is a beast, his wide varaiety of artillery peices will make his offensive and defensive capabilities ridiculously powerful. He's more of a " am gonna bombard you from 3 cities far" type of guy. Long range, powerful artillery mixed wtih the generic Russia heavy tanks.
He's going to be core.


Aleksander :

- Aleks sacrifice some of his heavy tank's heaviness in favor of FLASHY WEAPONS, more Damage, more brutality. He's going to lauch at GLA while they cry due to their buggies not doing a thing. He's going to Spearhead Chinese Blobs like they're a bunch of dirt. He's going to punch his way in through ECA defenses like they were some lego buildings.
His focus is on heavy infantry mixed with high damaging tanks and other peculiar weapons.


Orlov :

- The most versatile General in the game, will probably be the strongest in some cases. Imagine default Russia, imagine that but with a ridiculous early game presence that is only rivaled by General Thorn. To put it straight, this guy will maintain Russia's generic late game capabilities through sentinels and blackbears, while having the strongest Helicopter Arsenal in the game that cna help him alot mid game , and a solid early game that is 10 times stronger than current Russia's early game. Yeah you get the point.


ECA :


Willem :

- He's the Middle-Finger General. He basically brings his dozers, builds defenses and then simply points the middle finger at the enemey as the name suggests. Better Defenses , better dozer rushing capabilities , better stuff. He's the only general that can't be kicked out of an area at tier 0 map control contesting no matter how much you throw at him and his early game expansion.


Charles :


- If Zhukov is the type of guy who will bombard another from 3 cities away, Charles is the type of general who would bombard you from 3 countries away. And Make no Mistake, don't think Challengers are a joke. Heh, who's the real tank general is......Charles is ( in the great words of Knjaz). Charles is focused on heavy bombardment and endurance , making him the best candidate for Attrition warfare or prolonged ones. He also have the most annoying airforce in the from Goshawks to Harriers. His arsenal makes him the strongest late game general , that will probably be able to rival Russia during super late game, a feat that very few can accomplish.


Wolfgang :

- The most fun Hero to play, Wolfgang is not infantry spammed focused, nor tank spammed focuses. His gameplay is very remenicent of traditional German warfare tactics ( duh ) with mechanized infantry that work well only in combination wtih his vehicles and vice versa. This makes him able to ditch defensive approach and go for a purely offensive playstyle and still come on top.




As for the 2.0 Design, I can't guarantee it's going to be fully balanced for every matchup. There will be generals that have a harder matchup against specific others ( not close to the degree of ZH but it will noticeabely be harder) and other generals having a much easier time dealing with specific generals. Depending on how things goes, it can either resualt in a fairly balanced one albiet harder matchups, or "you pick this general against mine? lol gg" . Only time will tell...

I think we just need to wait and see what suprise devs are doing for us now:)

Wait a minute. Isnt Alexsander the Faction Strength X2 subfaction, while Zhukov is the powerhouse one? I think you got it wrong, GameMan.

No, Zhukov is default. Exaggerator is basicly "more of the same", which fits the bill with Zhukov: he has more tanks/vehicles, he has more big splash, more kaboom, more "classic Russian Awesome". Aleksandr is Powerhouse, since he has powerful infantry and super-hightech guns, and better, but not MORE better (so to say), tanks.

Granted, since Russia is the Powerhouse faction and one General of each faction is Powerhouse, there's some overlap here, with Zhukov being Powerhouse-Exaggerator and Aleksandr being Powerhouse-Powerhouse, so both are technically Powerhouse^2, just differently. Same with GLA, who are the Subversive faction, which means that Yusuuf (Subversive-Exaggerator) and Ibrahiim (Subversive-Subversive) are both in a way the Subversive^2 general.

If I am not mistaken, the developers said that they do not want to give for others nations units similar to the GLA GRAD
Soooo smerch better do not expect

Hmmm but the same words i heard about F-35

Russia already have a planned general specific replacement for Msta and it will go to Zhukov, a ballistic missile launcher like the V3 in RA2. There is just no place for a Smerch without breaking the 2 out of 3 rule.

Unless, we're talking about armor reserves.

You are correct.


Ehh... MARS stated this differently.


So, this is the Russian General Doctrines:

• Orlov: Subversive
• Aleksandr: Exaggerated
• Zhukov: Heavy

There's a lot of overlap between Zhukov and Aleksandr. I wasn't exactly sure who was supposed to be exaggerating the faction strength and who is the powerhouse when I wrote this. I pretty much went with what I heard recently: Zhukov is the faction strengthx2 and Aleksandr is the powerhouse. If it's the other way around, I'll keep that in mind in future posts.

Pretty nice and interesting reads from everyone so far. However, I would like to know the versatility with their primary & secondary abilities for all the hero units for all those generals of their respective factions. Is it possible for someone to lay it out for a glance and know whats coming in 2.0?

That's understandable; with 15 different armies to choose from, that's pretty much impossible. Also, there's a luck factor (going random) that makes it even more interesting.

Well that was at a time when the design docs wasn't nearly as sophisticated. By now, I'd say they switched positions. It would be best if MARS himself clears it up because I don't want false information here or elsewhere.

Edit: I asked MARS for clarity and he's stated that Zhukov is the Powerhouse while Aleksandr is the Exaggerator. Guess I have some work to do. So here, in not nearly as many words as in the discussion:

Aleksandr is the Exaggerator since he's mostly doing what a theoretical "default" Russia does: mechanised assault, just with additional infantry, a super-APC etc. What he brings to the table is his powerful infrastructure (default 12-SWR-strong powerplants) and good defence (the Tesla Coil). Zhukov meanwhile also can do Russia's mechanised assault, but he has a huge amount of artillery to do so, compared to the otherwise sole option for Russia, the Gorgon, and some new-tricks support infantry. So basicly, Aleksandr adds something to the gameplay, but Zhukov adds MORE, and by that logic, Aleksandr is "more of the same" while Zhukov is "more NEW kaboom".

Wowy, so many fishes of sizes and looks! 8)

Hi!

First post, so please do not hurt me !

Always thoght the genarals will be in three groups:
- Do what faction strength: Griffon (air power and micro), Chen (brutal force and spam), Yusuuf (sneaky), Aleksandr (powerhouse), Willem (turtling)
- Compansate for faction weaknes: Bradley (more land less micro), Jin (more subversion), Sulaymaan (more open), Orlov (more sneaky), Wolfgang (more mobile)
- Do special faction theme: Thorn (spec ops), Mau (EMP flame and nukes), Ibrahim (toxin), Zhukov (max damage), Charles (artillery)

Is not this right?

My problem is the generals have generic names and not describing like in Generals 2. Names like 1000 Suns and Wild Dog are so cool and tell what general does!

We tend to use a different three category system: One general is the specialist or 'exaggerator', to use a recently coined term, in that he takes the core element of a faction and takes it to an extreme (Griffon's air power, Chen's spam, Aleksandr's brute force, Yusuuf's guerilla tactics, Willem's fortifications). One is the Powerhouse, in that he adds a brute force/heavyweight element that the core faction is lacking (Bradley's tanks, Mau's special effect weapons, Zhukov's versatile long range weaponry, Sulaymaan's assault forces, Wolfgang's offensive capabilities). One is the Subversive, in that he hads more tactical/trickery oriented elements that are less pronounced in the core faction (Thorn's versatile infantry, Jin's electronic warfare, Orlov's airborne mobility, Ibrahiims toxin trickery, Charles' air power and support options). This is the distinction that is commonly used here on the forums, but yours (faction's strength, compensation for a weakness, special gimmick) isn't necessarily wrong either. Point is, there are certain patterns behind the theme choices that you can recognise across all the factions, instead of Zero Hour's system where each general just represented a single random element of the faction (USA lasers, air power, superweapons; Chinese nukes, tanks, infantry; GLA toxins, stealth, explosives)

As for the names, some of them do actually have nicknames in their backstories:

USA Air Force: Eugene Griffon, pilot nickname "Guile"
USA Tank Command: Jeremiah "Treads" Bradley
USA Special Forces: Francis "Chessmaster" Thorn, who also went by the callsign "Papa Dragon"
PRC Red Army: Chen Xing, dubbed "The Hammer" in a state-produced propaganda film about his exploits
RUS Tactical Ballistics: Leonid Vasilyevich Zhukov, known as "Father Leonid" among his troops for his caring nature
GLA Terror Cell: Abdul bin Yusuuf, dubbed "Blackbeard" for visible reasons, likely by foreign contacts or agencies
GLA Warlord: Anwar Sulaymaan, internationally known as "The Death Merchant" for his high-profile arms deals
GLA Bio Command: Tahar Ibrahiim, dubbed "The Frenchman" for his nationality
ECA Mechanised Assault: Wolfgang von Kürten, dubbed "The Huntsman" for his relentless pursuit of GLA forces

Others do not have established nicknames, but have gone by in some stories callsigns: Orlov used "Oryol" during his operations in Africa, South America and Europe and Aleksandr was called upon as "Chernobog"

I hope the Scud Launcher is like a Claymore (great range) but with long reload time and a really bad accuracy. Like the Scud-C: "Its range was brought up to 500–600 km, but at the cost of a greatly reduced accuracy and warhead size" or the Scud-B, 'cause it was "the most prolific of the series, with a production run estimated at 7,000. It served in 32 countries and four countries besides the Soviet Union manufactured copied versions" wich explains how the GLA get their hands on it, also "the Scud-B could carry nuclear, chemical, conventional HE warheads".

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud

It will probably be more like its Russian-used cousin, the Topol.

Wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of problems trying to balance matches between generals, due to the asymmetrical nature of the game's factions and upcoming subfactions. Each subfaction will have its own unique theme, which isn't going to be an easy thing to balance. One subfaction might have an easier time dealing with a certain faction tactic, while another subfaction will struggle to deal with the said tactic. Trying to keep generals unique while making sure matchups aren't horrifically one sided/broken is going to be REALLY difficult. Dev team has a lot of work ahead of them when 1.87 comes out and 2.0 development starts. But I have faith that the dev team and the testers will make all of the generals a blast to use.

Speaking of unique themes, one concern I have is that they are going to focus the generals a tad too much and thus make them inflexible. Like there is already talk of severely limiting the GP choices and that alone could make them rather predictable. So like, how much variety are the generals going to have when it comes to those?

Guys, it's not like all of you haven't played games with like 10 factions before (Soulstorm, Mental Omega, ect...). Ofcourse X OP vs Y and Y UP vs Z problems exists and balance get changed from time to time but in the end post-development wise there would still be imperfection anyway. If you're looking for SC competitive balance then you might as well just go play mirror matches.

At the very least it's not outright "LOL, you're airforce so no you can't build tanks and minigunners rape you and that's it." kind of balance like in old ZH. Now that is real stupidity.

I believe that the devs will keep making things fresh and even more interesting mechanics will be introduced, as they have proven before. We may not play as ours favourite faction and win all the time but the huge diversity would keep us from not trying it again and again.

I've actually played Mental Omega before, and I know that its pretty much near impossible to get perfect balance in that game, simply because some factions do better than others in certain circumstances. If I wanted SC competitive balance in a game, I would go play SC. As long as none of the subfactions are ridiculously one sided (Like you mentioned with the ZH Air Force General example), then I don't mind imperfections balance wise simply because unique, fun play styles are more fun than every general being balanced to the point they're bland and boring like factions are in SC.

If you think the races in starcraft are boring tone obviously never looked that deep into the games mechanics.

SC's approach is about "less is more". Stuffs have lots of interesting gimicks since the old times but that was it. It never get pass the core design once, as it considered itself perfect. Warcraft is more interesting yet it end in its own success and never see another sequel again.
C&C games at least actually try to change, for better or worse is a different matter altogether.

The problem with ZH subfaction balance was that for each thing a faction had as a unique element, more of the standard things were taken away: Tank General had superior Battlemasters and Emperors, but no artillery as well as costlier aircraft and infantry. Infantry General had better infantry and OP Minigunners, but no tanks. Not a single US general had access to Paladin tanks and they all had some combination of lacking/more expensive Crusaders and Tomahawks. The reason why the Nuclear General was so popular was because he was pretty much the only one who gained all sorts of cool nuclear-themed weapons but didn't lose anything fundamental in return.

In ROTR, the approach is different: Air-oriented generals like Griffon and Orlov will have tanks - on the same vanilla level of the US and Russia respectively. Ground-assault generals like Bradley, Zhukov and all the Chinese ones will have access to aircraft and helicopters - on the same vanilla level of the US, Russia and China respectively. Simply put, the ROTR approach to subfactions is that each general retains all the necessary tools of a well-rounded faction - infantry, tanks, artillery, air units - and their unique specialisations merely add to or modify these. This is also the reason why, aside from the technical implementation, there is simply no need for unspecialised vanilla factions: Every general contains all the tools that a vanilla faction would have and their unique focus only adds to that, without anything 'off-doctrine' being taken away or artificially weakened.

Speaking of Griffon, I actually have a question about him: Why is he considered to be the 'Faction Strength Exaggerated' general? Sounds kinda silly to ask, but I'm bringing this up now because I was looking at some of the other threads regarding how the U.S. in its current form really plays out as (A generalist, Jack-of-all-trades, master of none faction), and I remember another thread saying that while the other 4 factions' generals are making the faction have more tools at their disposal (Basically giving the other factions more tactics instead of just using the same tactic; ECA defense spam for example), the U.S. generals are going the opposite direction, giving the faction more specializations instead. Is it because Griffon is basically vanilla U.S. with extra powerful aircraft on top?

So, from the standpoint of unit rooster, basically all generals are a (ROTR) Vanilla faction with either the Vanilla basic units or better equivalents plus their own unique units minus the unique units of other generals that we have access to in a the pre-2.0 version?

Yep. Playstyle wise it'll retain the ground-air support, albiet being very good at the air part, but the core aspects remain the same. You need micro to make it work.

Bradley on the other hand plays differently from the vanilla USA in that while he's slower than the conventional USA general in responses, he makes up for it by having stronger armor and ground presence that can go on par with Russia while retaining the defualt US airpower ( but becoming less of a nessessity unlike the default US faction).

Thorn is completely different from any conventional playstyle that neither focuses on heavy tanks nor on supreme air power , but something else, hence why he's subversive.

First thing came to my mind whenever Thorn is mentioned should be MOAR HUMVEES!

Then again, his theme is actually the most expanded of the three. Special Forces could be special vehicles, spec ops infantry and even drone and aircrafts, intel mechanics......

Looks like a very fun guy to use, but since he's gonna need even more micro and plannings ahead it's definitely not gonna be an easy choice.

I imagine the subversive generals are probably going to be much more difficult to utilize and play with, but are going to be far more rewarding if you can play them right. Especially Thorn and Jin, I think, given that both focus around intel gathering, sabotage, and spec ops infantry groups. Orlov is gong to be highly versatile, given his arsenal is subversive + Russia's powerhouse combined, Ibrahiim is going to be a pain in the ass to fight against, given his use of chemical and biological warfare, and Charles' artillery is going to be annoying, since he can bombard you from so far away. To take a quote from the Gorgon: "My diagnosis? SHELL SHOCK!". That's what the player feels like after facing Charles. XD

Charles having a heavier tank than the Kodiak is proof that his stuffs are no joke. Combined with ECA defense style his enemy would have to take massive casualties if they want to get in close and defeat him. Probably the bloodiest match up would be Chen vs Charles. One focus on never ending reinforcements while the other just stay afar and bombard everything non-stop while building more walls, tanks and snipers to prevent any chance of a breakthrough. Would be a wonderful sight to see however.

Exactly. The non-Generals version of ROTR is really a crutch, there are no base factions meant to exist in 2.0 since, as has been said several times, every General has the base assets and then only adds special replacements or unique things on top of that. Nobody loses any core assets. Thorn still has tanks. Bradley still has aircraft. Mau still can horde. Ibrahiim can still disguise a Bomb Truck and shove it up his enemy's... flank. Willem can still tank assault... and so on and on.

So to illustrate it in a generic but clear way:





Subversive Generals will require more attention, yes, since they are basicly the "Here's some new, mean tricks" Generals.



On par, maybe, but certainly not heavier.

What?

First, CnC games don't change, at least not really. They have used the same tech tree, damage model, unit types, and game compositions since 1995. There is movement towards making some unit types more viable, (infantry, aircraft) and adding some special abilities, but for the most part its the same game its always been. If you are decent at one CnC, then chances are you can be decent at any of them. Thats not change.

Second, Starcraft has changed dramatically over the years, far more so than CnC could ever dream. Doing so is necessary because Starcraft's design is so asymmetrical that balancing it is an incredible feat all its own. Saying it never got past 'core design' is incredibly dismissive. NO ONE tries to make 3 asymmetrical races work - its an insane task to find ways to balance it all, and extremely impressive that they have gotten so close.

Warcraft, at least WC3, works because it literally wrote its own genre, (again, breaking new ground) and you will definitely see a sequel at some point. The only question is when since Blizzard non WoW releases seem to come about once a decade.

Third, (and this is a general rant not just directed at you) fuck the word Gimmick. Its such an overused term used to discredit any new idea that someone doesn't understand.

Hey, first time post here. signed up to try out the new beta and loving the hell out of it. Been following this mods since i remember before ECA was a thing for it on Moddb.

Anyways, while its interesting to think what the generals will get and their strengthens are, what about their weaknesses/deficiencies in certain fields? and i prefer to classify them as Light (Subversive) Heavy (Powerhouse) and Specialist (Faction X2)

Here are my takes and predictions how the generals will play out. and of course its likely they might be completely wrong.

USA is the primer Micro faction with some of the highest mobility that is only matched or exceeded by the GLA. and their lasers and Countermeasures gives them the ability to ignore damage. weaknesses being not being able to stand up to punishment, mediocre when brute forced and units being investments.

So USA Light, Spec Ops i imagine their strength of course is their mobility but also high quality infantry. Their unique Firebase with its garrison slots synchronizes with their infantry. and pathfinders can slaughter approaching infantry with it. and so can the Delta Force Ops with their machine guns. and his Mule Drones which gives firepower buffs. being Infantry, they can easily be transported by air in large numbers. the Avenger is said to be exclusive to him, so the defense lasers also help with avoiding damage.

Weaknesses though, of course would the weakest in taking damage. but with Blackhawks, Ospreys, Chinooks and Pavelows, using them to relocate your troops like the Delta Forces Mortar barrarges from an enemy response should be your best bet. basically avoid taking damage instead of tanking. also because of how the laser defense lasers work, they would be little use against China's Flaks.

-

USA Heavy; Tank Command. Strengths, it's tanks obviously. but also combines with USA's high mobility. giving USA a rather unique blend of speed and firepower. also the defense lasers of the Paladin and Bradley allows them to ignore a degree of missile damage. Has the Composite armour upgrade.

Weaknesses: While the fastest of the Heavies, they are the 2nd least "tankiest" Heavy. since it seems that the Paladin would be the Heaviest tank USA will get. so it would be foolish to go against say Russia's heavy tank fleets. but since USA has access to powerful gunships, a combined arms tactic should be used. as well as the Microwave tanks to disable high risk enemy units and protect against Terrorists, Hijackers, Angry Mobs.

-

USA Specialist. Air Force. Strengths, Obviously, it's airforce. the stealthy Commache combined with a variety of airforce options, it should not be a stretch to assume he will get abilities for his aircraft to ignore damage. (possibly point defense lasers or a Goliath system like upgrade). the WASP Hive i think is kinda brilliant. a force of those should be good at distracting enemy anti-air like Quads and missile troop from their aircraft. possibly have access to "cannon fodder" aircraft like the Acolyte drones from Shockwave to district heavy Anti-Aircraft?

Weaknesses: expect his ground forces to suffer to some degree. and the Crusader will likely be the heaviest ground unit they can field. the Crusader will still fill a vital role within this subfaction's arsenal but it would lack the Composite Armour. Stuff like Patriots and Grumbles would hit this faction particularly hard though.

-

China of course has the numbers on its side. Cheap, mass producable tanks and infantry. though poor in performance unless under influence of Horde and Propaganda. lacks finesse.

China Light; Secret Police. This one i feel have trouble figuring out but i think its safe to say they would have superior map awareness capabilities. to the point that the fog-of-war is a non issue to this general. that it would be almost impossible to hide from them. also if the Propaganda Airship is anything to go by, their strengths are administrating buffs to friendlies with Propaganda related quirks. also ECM Tank would give them damage ignore capabilities. also may get a red guard replacement. (possibly a PLA Regular/Rifleman?)

Weaknesses: Would be unable to build a big army like Red Army Gen or one with a punch like Special Weapons. if map awareness advantage is true, then this general should have early warnings giving the player ample time to prepare.

-

China Heavy: Special Weapons. Strenghts are heavy hitting. in a way a blend between Russia's punch and China's Numbers. The Disrupter Teams and Nuke Weapons lets you punish the enemy from a distance and have significant firepower by themselves even without horde. Versatile Han Gunships

Weaknesses. Judging by the Minigunners, Nukeneers, Disrupters and Nuke Cannon. Their primary damage dealers require deployment. likely making them particularly vulnerable to fast enemies. and the units themselves look like considerable investments by themselves so hording would not be economical aside from red guards and battlemasters.

-

China Specialist: Red Army. strengths is obvious. being able to make an army so huge the SAGE engine crashes. like to have Horde related upgrades and bonuses. production advantages.

-

Weaknesses. perhaps the most inflexible army of all. its sheer size would be difficult to micromanage and would offer little benefit regardless. units would lack any secondary function since they are to be used in groups. Helix might offer much needed mobility but even then it's slow and better suited for supporting assaults. not sure what degree of customization it will have.


-

Everyones favorite orky mad-max middle eastern crypto-islamist ragtag bunch of misfits and junkyard engineers. having the highest mobility on par if not exceeding the USA. having the advantage of Stealth and black market bounties. could practically be swimming in cash when fully upgraded with bounties and arms merchants. but junk engineering does not hold up to the standards of a fully industrialized country.

GLA Light: Bio Command. Strengths are likely having some of the best AoE weapons. Very good area denial measures and would likely focus on debuffing the enemy with toxins. also something about "thermite" weapons that sounds like damage over time weapons for enemy vehicles. and buffs like Combat Drugs. "chain reaction" chemical weapons. becuase of this, might have some of the best defense capabilities of the GLA

Weaknessees: lacking "punch". BioCom might rely on quickly applying damage over a short period of time then delivering a good knockout punch. tough units might easily work their way through BioComs attacks and ravage your forces. also the indiscriminate nature of toxins would likely make your own weapons a threat to your forces if you are not careful.

-

GLA Heavy: Warlord. Marauder Tanks, Mercenaries, Salvage Armour? a total opposite to Biocom. Rely on doing large amounts of damage in a short period of time. and combined with GLA's high mobility with tunnels.

Weaknesses. likely expensive and cannot take much damage due to ramshackle nature. might be the most micro-intensive of the "Heavy" subfactions to compete with the other Heavies. may have weakest stealth capabilities.

-

GLA Specialist: Terror Cell. maximizing "knockout punch" damage through their suicide units. best stealth and camouflage abilities. also versatility. Angry Mobs and Insurrection.

Weaknesses: their most damaging units are likely single use only. embodies the "Glass Cannon" trope with possibly their Battle Bus being the hardest unit in their arsenal. and even then that requires passengers to be combat capable. Angry Mobs while capable of doing tremendous amounts of damage, are not subtle and can be annihilated with the correct weapon used against them. (Commanche, Dragon Tank, Gepard, Buratino, Toxin Tractor)

-

Russia, Star of show, the top billing. tough Tanks but weak economy. cheap Conscripts to meat shield your armored investments and a terrifying but somewhat limited airforce.

Russia Light: Rapid Deployment: Basically Russian Air Force. having the lions share of Russian Helicopters with the Hellion, Hunchback and Hind, and advanced infantry with the Spetsnaz. VDV Support and possibly a heavy lift transport that can carry a Kodiak or two. and possibly exclusive use of the Goliath system.

Weakness: honestly i have trouble finding the weaknesses for this general aside from the standard cost inefficiency of Russian Units until they get an Industrial Plant. likely his weaknesses are the lack of survivabilty tools for his ground units. possibly lack the ERA upgrade for his tanks?

-

Russia Heavy/Specialist?: Tactical Ballistics: honestly think there is much overlap with Advanced Weapons. but i think the biggest difference is while AdvWeps punches through the enemy, TacBal forms a firing line and shoots the opponent into submission. might be some overlap with ECA. but likely TacBal would reward a more aggressive playstyle compared to a ECA with artillery (which would reward being more conservative). but the Gorgon double gun system and compression engines would give you a range advantage over your opponents. also Topol-M and Don Missiles to soften the enemy before the attack.

Weaknesses. i have trouble finding the weaknesses for this general aside from the standard cost inefficiency of Russian Units until they get an Industrial Plant. honestly not enough to go off of. maybe lacks any air transport capabilities.

-

Russian Specialist/Heavy?: like mentioned before, Overlap with Tactical Ballistics. but i think the differences would be hyper aggressive playstyle. you send your forces into enemy defenses and take them out before they do. Acess to the Shtora systems that allow his units to ignore damage by being untargetable for a few moments. approaching the enemy base with Shtora and doing as much damage as possible before it wears off. Shock Troopers and Tesla Weaponry. Gets the Golem tank.

Weakness. i have trouble finding the weaknesses for this general aside from the standard cost inefficiency of Russian Units until they get an Industrial Plant. however quite possibly have the worst long range options of all Russian subfactions. Maybe lack the Gorgon entirely? also Lack the Sentinel tank (unless you perfer the Golem) but should have the Blackbear.


I guess if AdvWeps and TacBal are to be compared, it would be like a Close Combat Specialists vs Gunlines.
-

I have not played enough ECA to think of how they might possible work though. however I do think the Bloodhound is such a welcome addition i don't think i can ever imagine ECA without them now.

Uh...Tactical Ballistic won't be using coalition gun because he have a replacement for that, which isn't a howitzer at all. That means the other 2 will be using Gorgon as theirs choice for artillery, so no Aleksandr without Gorgon.

If the old plans didn't change then Russia and China will be the only factions that have no way to quickly transport tanks. So no Kodiak carrier for Orlov either.

I agree though, the Russian generals doesn't seems to have much obvious weaknesses aside from the ones inherited from the vanilla factions which is the cost and the slow speed of theirs tanks. Orlov is also the least affected of all, as he retained the helicopters. But we still don't know much about what the other 2 will get.

Advance Weapons is the exaggerated faction, railgun and tesla inflicted pure damage to a single enemy yet lack the capabilities to fight large hordes. Tactical Ballistic on the other hand is the opposite of that. Both of them use super heavy tanks to breakthrough however, so they're still very similar.

On Thorn/Special Forces:
1. Where, exactly, do people get these information? Avengers are NOT exclusive to Thorn. You can easily find out by looking at the thing - does it feature Thorn's insignia? No.

On Jin/Secret Police:
1. Why do you think he'd have trouble building up a big army? Propaganda Airships are basicly made to support big armies with lots of propaganda and inspiring frenzy.

On Mau/Special Weapons:
1. Like I said on the first page, Minigunners are not exclusive to Mau.

On Chen/Red Army:
1. Chen's units will have the same abilities as any other. Tank Hunters can still throw TNT. Red Guards can still fix bayonets. Overlords can obviously customize. Gattling Tanks can still dakka Again, you seem to be yet another person who thinks that any given General in ROTR will loose functions like it's ZH all over again to make up for their new toys. It's not like that.

On Ibrahiim/Bio Command:
1. Mostly correct, but Ibrahiim employs a new class of weaponry based on acids to deal with armour, so that's covered. He also has the Scud Launcher to punch holes into enemy defence lines.

On Sulaymaan/Warlord:
1. Only unique units may be expensive, base units like the Technical will not be artificially more expensive for any General.

On Yusuuf/Terror Cell:
1. Insurrection (if you mean the big mob) is a generic GP. If you mean the 3-level "Ambush", then you're right.

On Orlov/Rapid Deployment:
1. ERA isn't exclusive to anyone.
2. Orlov's unique upgrade is Thermobaric Ordnance, not Goliath.
3. Orlov's weakness is the basic Russian weakness of incredibly expensive units. His Spetznaz, while good, are definitely more expensive and unlike vehicles they cannot be made cheaper. His airforce, while better, is also more expensive on default. In that way, like Russia has ever been, he's most vulnerable in the early game.

On Zhukov/Tactical Ballistics:
1. Zhukov is Powerhouse, as has been established and confirmed earlier. I'm in part to blame for the confusion.
2. Zhukov doesn't use the Gorgon.

On Aleksandr/Advanced Weapons:
1. Since Zhukov is Powerhouse, conversely Aleksandr is Exaggerator.
2. He has the Gorgon, just like Orlov.
3. Personally I prefer the Golem; and yes, he also has the Blackbear of course, since it's an independant super Sentinel which isn't produced so much as "follows the call for help from comrades the world over"
4. Tactics-wise, Aleksandr is the go-all-out General. His incredibly high-damage units forego any kind of subtlety and just shoot, shoot and shoot some more. He also has a kind of super-APC, the details of which are not revealed, but fill it with Shock Troopers and roll it down the hills - enemies too foolish to flee will soon be no more.

Thanks for keeping me up to date. most of what i have heard i think are outdated by a couple years last i checked.



responses are in bold

Why do People think Jin can't spam compared to the other 2? Relatively, Jin can spam just as much as Mau, Its Chen who takes spam to a whole different level and only he spams better than the 2. Mau does not in any shape or form have better spammability than Jin.




Relatively , Orlov is going to have the strongest early game compared to the other 2 Russian generals so this weakness is alittle bit covered if not fully depending on the matchup.
In terms of power, Orlov beats 70% of the generals rosters in early game, with very few exceptions notably Thorn and to an extent, Wolfgang. While the Spetsnaz are more powerful, they're expensive meaning as strong as Orlov's early game will be, it's gonna be more punishing if you failed to preform a specific early game strategy or harrassment.

I would actually say the faction with disadvantaged spam is Mau. Sure, you can spam Battlemasters all you want, but just like the current version you can't really get away with Nukaneer or Nuke Cannon spam. They are just too expensive and bulky (but POWERFUL) to be used like that. The more conventional equivalents that Chen and Jin have are much more spammable, but not nearly as powerful as a result. Jin does have some more expensive support units, but you generally do not spam support units anyway.

Not a surprise really. If there's something like a nuke cannon that can shoot and scoot while still being cheap then we'll have the biggest cry ever.

Wouldn't shock me. Given Mau's speciality, I would be surprised if he could spam super well, considering the known units going to him are slow and expensive (incredibly powerful if used right though; Nuke Cannons are flat out lethal, and Nukeneers are basically extremely mobile artillery, considering they can enter troop crawlers). He essentially trades spamming ability for lots of firepower, and it makes a lot of sense to em that he can't spam AS good as Jin or Chen (though he can still spam, not saying he can't); imagine if you sent a cheaply made army, only to have your own artillery blow it up by sheer accident (China's nuclear and napalm weapons tend to do that a lot; I've lost entire armies because of mishaps like GLA ambush in the middle of my army, and then my Nuke Cannons fire at the ambush, thus blowing up my army altogether. Needless to say, I was pissed. XD).



Oh dear god, I can already imagine it. It'd be something like a Battlemaster that would fire Nuke Cannon shells from its gun instead of regular cannon shells. I can already imagine players crying from having to face such a unit... XD

Could been even worse.......like nuclear buggy with AOE.

BTW,

Mau seems to be the Chinese general that actually need precision and babysitting to use. He's the one whose forces are more expensive and have more chance of getting friendly fire than everyone else due to the destructive nature of WMDs. What can be used against the enemy can also be used against you, so think twice before recklessly blowing everything up.

Jin on the other hand, looks like will be the one who love playing safe and secured. As for Chen, like he would even care. MOAR is the only answer.