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Serialkillerwhale
It's finally happened. After years of dithering dove governments, the DPRK Has created a real ICBM and probably cappable of hitting US mainland.

And we have 3 years of democrat ahead of us.

Way to go western world.

More seriously, it might not be real, but it most certainly WILL cause mass panic. Even otherwise, Theres large chances of south korea responding with a nuclear arsenal, and we'll have a second Pakistan/India on our hands.
Point is, this is a real problem now.


Please Discuss.
MARS
Today they build ICBMs. Tomorrow, they attack Washington with an AC-130 and occupy the White House like it's frickin' Die Hard
zachert45
MW2. But in Real Life
piratep2r
TL;DR response: I am not worried now, but am worried mid-long term; i don't think that they are close to a nuclear ICBM. I also don't think the current central government in NK would ever use a nuclear missile to preemptively attack the US even if they had one, but if the government fell it would be an enormous mess; basically what the world is afraid of as a worst case scenario in Pakistan. Additionally, it raises interesting and scary possibilities for other countries to run a false flag operation on NK to trigger such an event; one can only imagine the geo-political changes that could cause. Unfortunately, there seems to be very little the US can do about the situation; the best move would be to work with China to accomplish change, but there is no incentive for china to do this AFAIK. IMO invasion is out, limited strikes are out, covert action is out, electronic sabotage is difficult and risky.

Full Response:

Well, you asked for "discuss." I find it hard to imagine that having a hawkish American Republican President would have made any difference in North Korea's ability to build ICBMs. So I thought that comment of yours about democrats was weird.

Seriously, though, I think NK is a very interesting and frightening case, though I must admit I know fairly little about it; I've read about how their intense militarization and propaganda has utterly destroyed their economy to the extent that mass famines and limited modern education are a common reality there (though literacy is very high).

re: technology: from what little I have read, they are quite close to building a missile that can hit "the US." Is that Alaska? I do not know. Let us assume that it is not, that it is actually the west coast somewhere. From what I have read, NK is nowhere near being able to build a nuclear warhead capable of fitting in any rocket they can build in the next few years. That is much further off. Apparently (and I did not really know this until digging a little online) it is quite hard to build a warhead small enough to fit in a very long range missile.

Economically their economy has been contracting since 2006, and according to Wikipedia, their official figures (ie, NK's figures) put their average salary for a Korean worker at $2(US$)/month. Most men have to work in the factories (many of which are not even functioning) so women earn the largest portion of the household earning by being available to work in the illegal economy that functions outside the state economy. over 50% of the country is malnourished or underweight, and the average person does not have constant access to electricity. From a food perspective, the US was the single largest provider of food to NK until the bush jr administration, at which point much of the US food aid was cut off. Life expectancy is currently 169th in the world. The country is not doing well by its citizens, and poor, malnourished, and uneducated citizens do not a strong country make.

Militarily they have an enormous and mostly antiquated army (and submarine fleet - did you know that?!?). They apparently have some higher technology items, but I have no idea what is hype and what is real, or what is practical and what is useless (for example, how good is their "stealth paint?" or their "anti-personel lasers?"). I think the most important two functions for their military (besides the obvious one of helping to ensure state control) is as a practical opposition to a ground attack from any other player (especially SK, China, and RUS) and as a means of holding the south Korean peninsula hostage - apparently NK has thousands of artillery tubes aimed at cities in SK, ready to retaliate if the US (or anyone else) tries to interfere with their bomb/missile making. Having SK civilian centers effectively held hostage is IMO one of the reasons no US president (D, R, or otherwise) would "go into" NK.

RE: foreign relations: NK imports most of its fuel and much of its food from China (a possible outcome of a hawkish US president cutting off their food aid? - just speculation from me); yet US and UN foreign policy has been completely unable to get China to sanction NK; indeed, china (per Wikipedia) subsidizes the government of NK through below market value fuel sales and other support. IMO this is to keep NK afloat so it can be a distraction and deterrent for any US ambitions in the region; it is hard to image what would make them stop doing so, unless NK started to directly threaten them. While one could argue that a nuclear NK is a threat to china, practically speaking china is their best and most serious ally.

Put this all together, and you have a country that is terrified of its neighbors and the US (perhaps rightly so). They are weak economically, from a fuel supply perspective, and from a food perspective; they probably see themselves as very vulnerable in many ways, as well as surrounded by enemies and potential enemies. Despite this weakness, they have very effectively leveraged WW2 and cold war era technology into building a military that is aimed like a guillotine at the most vulnerable parts of their nearest neighbor (who happens to be a closest ally of their perceived greatest threat), thus effectively holding hundreds of thousands of civilians hostage in exchange for peace. This is an effective stratagy, but only a fool would count on it to work forever, and besides, if the leaders are truly paranoid, they may suspect that some enemies would not balk at potential casualties in SK. In order to maintain a credible threat, therefor, they must ultimately appear to strong and ready to effectively attack someone other than SK. Especially after what happened in Iraq (Iraq had no WMD, and no way to directly attack the USA, though had an enormous conventional army), it is natural to assume that NK wants the ability to directly attack the US in order to earn the respect (and therefor safety) it craves. It is also IMO a reasonable long term goal in adjusting their relationship with china; right now they offer little to china, but having effective nuke missiles would give them a potential threat against a growing power.

Long story short: I am not worried now, but am worried mid-long term. I don't think the current central government in NK would ever use a nuclear missile to preemptively attack the US, but if the government fell it would be an enormous mess; basically what the world is afraid of as a worst case scenario in Pakistan. Despite the terrible conditions in the country, the Korean government seems very stable; the people do not seem about to rise up in revolt, and the existing government is supported by china. N Korea having nuclear missiles is a rational choice for N Korea (as is acting hyper aggressive), but also it raises interesting and horrifying possibilities for other countries to run a false flag operation on NK to trigger such an event; one can only imagine the Geo-political changes that could cause. Unfortunately, there seems to be very little the US can do about the situation; the best move would be to work with China to accomplish change, but there is no incentive for china to do this AFAIK. IMO invasion is out, limited strikes are out, covert action is out, electronic sabotage is difficult and risky.
Serialkillerwhale
The hawk vs. dove part was a bad joke and i couldn't resist slamming my bias into it.


In china however, the common perspective of North Korea is "Town Drunk" The chinese deal with NK so that there won't be a influx of refugees.
To say the truth however, ICBMS aren't the threat the seem to be these days, With the YAL 747 Prototype already up and running, It won't be that long before a real SDI is in place, meaning missiles need far more tech than simply "Get over there". The missiles have 3 purposes. 1): Being able to beat South Korea in Total war and presumably conquer them. 2):To prove their new leader to the rest of the world. 3):Threatening the US.

South Korea is right next to japan, which has both spacecraft and nuclear technology, essentially a De Facto Nuclear Power. It is possible that they will buy nuclear Missiles from japan in the form of the parts (Insert IKEA joke here). And we'll have another Nuclear standoff.
Serialkillerwhale
Annnnd now the idiots have declared the war back on again.

Brb, buying bunker construction materials.
GDIZOCOM
QUOTE (zachert45 @ 24 Jan 2013, 19:38) *
MW2. But in Real Life


This isn't MW2 in real life in the sense that they can't just grab some scrambler, shut down satellite systems and launch a surprise attack. Besides, the US isn't the only country who's keeping an eye on North Korea.


Whether we like it or not there isn't a lot that can be done about this. For a country that puts the military first and being the most isolated country on earth I just hope they don't do it. If it EVER does happen I'm not quite sure what the US, or UN for that matter might do. Still disturbs me how life goes on in that country sleep.gif

Kichō
Most of North Korean threats is groundless, rarely do they carry them out. The only recent attack they carried out was the shelling of Yeongpyeong island.

I'm not worried because it'll be years before they can actually deploy a missile capable of delivering a nuclear warhead. In that amount of time, things could be different. Not only that but China will not allow the DPRK to interfere with its trade and relations.

QUOTE
the people do not seem about to rise up in revolt, and the existing government is supported by china.


Partially right, the Kim family is a personality cult, the people revere them as gods and are spoonfed propaganda that 'Juche' is 'it'. Anyone questioning the regime will be sent to Camp 22. Recently, Kim Jong-un implemented changes (perhaps to keep the masses in check) such as allowing farmers to keep most of their crops, sacking of a military chief. It's sad they still keep Songun. (On a side note, China abolished "re-education through labour camps")

While the government may be supported, the relationship isn't as cosy as you may think. NKorean border troops have shot Chinese tourists, detained fisherman, hassled Chinese businesses. The PRC has backed most sanctions on the DPRK, the Foreign Ministry even called Pyongyang a "spoilt child" and other choiceful words. China has even said that they'd be prepared to accept a unified Korea with Seoul as its capital. The fear Beijing has is the influx of refugees should Pyongyang collapse.

China is being cautious by using dialogue.
Shiro
QUOTE (MARS @ 24 Jan 2013, 15:02) *

I'd watch that.

As for the issue at hand:
North Korean propaganda is basicly "we are kind of awesome as everyone else is much worse". Tell that often enough to the common, undereducated citizen and they will believe it and if not, just put them in reeducation camps. So some kind of support from the population is a given.
As for the nukes, both Chinese and American agencies have found out that NK tested nuclear weapons over the course of the last decade and one of their downed sattelites actually was one such ICBM system if without the actual nuke. NK loves muscle play, so once they will have developed a functioning, armed ICBM system, they will threaten others with it, much like how they keep SK in check by means of artillery. But if they will actually use the nuke is another issue and thankfully, even their government shouldn't be as stupid as to engage a nuclear attack.

As for China, they are more embarrassed than ok with the situation of being allied with NK. A direct confrontation isnt unlikely.
MARS
Personally, I'm not so much concerned about North Korean missiles, but disturbed by the mere existence of the country as a geographical construct. I find it scarier than those war and disease ridden hell holes in parts of Africa; those are just pure lawless anarchy whereas North Korea is a state entity that is consciously designed and meant to be the way it is. It is a country whose poverty ridden people have been locked in and indoctrinated with the idea that its leaders are literally divine beings for multiple generations by now, a nation that is so deliberately isolated and cut off from the outside world that the word of the leader is pretty much their sole concept of reality. The ideology behind this has a lot more in common with national socialism rather than communism and there is a standing army of over one million men who, despite being undertrained, underequipped and undernourished, would probably be willing to defend this twisted entity to the death with a degree of fanaticism that may rival the Imperial Japanese Army in the unlikely but possible event of a military escalation. All things considered, this is the closest thing to '1984' in real life, a thing that just seems so utterly out-of-place in this supposedly globalised world and frightening by virtue of simply existing.
Slavic Soldier
All countries which have nuclear missiles have the advantage over the non-nuclear countries.Look at USA and the countries they attacked.None of them had nuclear missiles,so there was not much keeping USA from attacking.
When a country 'goes nuclear',other countries would think twice before they attack it,and it's normal that we all want to be secured.
So i can't realy blame North Korea for wanting to make ICBMs,as i can't blame any other country which wants nuclear missiles.They most likely just want to be sure that USA would think twice before they attacked,and that is most likely the biggest reason why USA hasn't already invaded N.Korea.

The double standards are obvious.For example,from all NATO allies the country which is the most 'concerned' about Iran and the nukes they are allegedly making(Israel) never signed the NPT.And they say that Iran,a country that signed NPT is making nukes?It's logical to expect that Israel,a country that never even ratified NPT,is more likely to alreadly have nukes.
Serialkillerwhale
1: Israel is not a fanatical near-insane terrorist organization in form of government
2: North Korea has repeatedly proven it prefers war over peace with it's artillery and other sabre rattling
3: Do you read Pro Al Queda news or something?
4: N.Korea wasn't invaded because it didn't obivously support terrorists yet.
5: Double standards? It's called common sense. Israel is a nation that we can trust, can we trust people who declare they want to destroy all else on earth like the Iranians or created a big brother esque dystopia like the north koreans?
CoLT
QUOTE (Slavic Soldier @ 26 Jan 2013, 2:56) *
All countries which have nuclear missiles have the advantage over the non-nuclear countries.Look at USA and the countries they attacked.None of them had nuclear missiles,so there was not much keeping USA from attacking.
When a country 'goes nuclear',other countries would think twice before they attack it,and it's normal that we all want to be secured.
So i can't realy blame North Korea for wanting to make ICBMs,as i can't blame any other country which wants nuclear missiles.They most likely just want to be sure that USA would think twice before they attacked,and that is most likely the biggest reason why USA hasn't already invaded N.Korea.

The double standards are obvious.For example,from all NATO allies the country which is the most 'concerned' about Iran and the nukes they are allegedly making(Israel) never signed the NPT.And they say that Iran,a country that signed NPT is making nukes?It's logical to expect that Israel,a country that never even ratified NPT,is more likely to alreadly have nukes.



I agree with none of this. Here's why.

The first sentence you are referring to what we call "deterrence". That is, when a country has significant military (or even economic) power, they have a force of deterrence to deter other countries from attacking them and their interests. While I agree that all countries and their people want to feel secure, it is arguable that nuclear weapons can actually have the opposite effect due to the fear of M.A.D (Mutually assured destruction) basically, both countries being destroyed if they start throwing nukes at each other. Hence why conventional warfare is still preferred.

You can blame North Korea for trying to build nukes. You can slam them for it. This is for a number of reasons. First, their expenditure on military grossly outweighs their expenses on welfare for the people. The money should be going into boosting industry and agriculture. That way the people can feed themselves at the very least.
Second, as it has been demonstrated on many occasions, the military forces of North Korea are not a pure deterrence force and are, in fact, more likely to be a harassment and attrition force. This has been demonstrated by the countless attacks on South Korea that originate from the North since the division of the two countries. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that nuclear weapons, if in the hands of North Korea, could actually be used against the South. Particularly since the last incident, the bombardment of Yeonpyeong in 2010, received no major reprisal from the South. Of course, the incident resulted in the deaths of many South Koreans and, for this reason, Defence Minister Kim Tae-young resigned. The criticism on his part being that not enough was done. The people wanted revenge, he provided shepherding, nothing more.

The point about Israel is highly untrue. While Israel may not be a supporter of nuclear disarmament, they are not likely to arm themselves with nuclear weapons either. This is again due to M.A.D which is more likely to happen if they arm themselves. Israel is not a radical, extremist nation. They are simply caught in the middle of a bad situation. Iran has enriched uranium to the point where they can build nuclear weapons and that poses a threat to all countries in the region. A nuclear strike against Israel is like to cause damage to several major cities without the possibility of retaliation. Furthermore, Israel already receives such bad press when defending themselves against attacks from Gaza and the like. It would not make sense then for them to arm themselves with such weapons if they would be able to do nothing more than incite neighbouring nations to attack them. Look at the press that Iran got for their uranium enrichment and now imagine if Israel were to do something similar. They are not like North Korea in any way and they do have free press, more or less, so a programme such as this would be in the media one way or another.

Please don't post such unfounded comments without any research. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Cite sources, after all, this is not the political forum and you don't want to start a flame war on this forum by posting unresearched, illogical or whatsoever comments. People might take offense to opinion but, less likely if it's towards researched, supported, facts. (Unless they're Gaza rocket launcher teams or similar tongue.gif, if you know what I mean.)
Shiro
I have more of a problem of you defending Israel than all the other things you said. First and foremost, Israel does have nukes, they just want to keep that an open secret. Keep it vague about how many they actually have. And just because we are allied with Israel doesn't mean the country is on the "good" side.

As for Iran, the country also receives a lot of bad press about how they want to get enriched uranium to make bombs. Here's the thing many media do not mention: to make pallets for a nuclear power plant and to make half-spheres for nuclear bombs is a lot more different than people think. So if Iran really wants to use nuclear power plants and gain an industry capable of making enriched uranium or plutonium, they could do that. But to gain uranium of high enough quality for a nuclear weapon requires several additional processes.

Anyway. According to official sources that our lovely Wikipedia continously gets in, the amount of troops of Nortk Korea is basicly so high you might call it "an army with a country" rather than a country with an army. As mentioned above, NK prefers muscle play and sporadic attacks, mostly on cities as a show of force. In case they really start a nuclear attack, there are several possibilities on how it would go and how the world would react.
1) The most likely outcome from a singular nuke attack: it gets shot down, SK pleads for help, the NATO reacts. NK fires all artillery to get SK down and then dies from permanent bombing itself.
2) Several nukes are launched at SK. It is probable that at least one of these will hit, resulting in a successful nuclear strike. Either all countries in the region will react with conventional means, or nuke NK outright (China, Pakistan, India being possible offenders).
3) A nuclear strike at a country other than SK. Unlikely, since SK is the main antagonist for NK. The next probable coutries are Japan ad the USA for their high-tech values. Japan might be taken by surprise, the USA would have plenty of time to react.
4) Least probable: NK fires so many nukes at once the entire region is bombarded and all countries react accordingly, resulting in nuclear annihilation. Unlikely, since that would require dozens upon dozens of functional nukes.

End of line: an actual nuclear attack is unlikely. Show of force very much so.
MARS
The interesting thing about the Korean conflict is that the North always seems to get away with its blatant provocations. The bombardment of Yeonpyeong, the sinking of the Cheonan, the DMZ tunnels, the commando incursions, the Rangoon bombing - These are all instances that could have easily sparked a new war between the two but it never happened because the South, along with its foreign allies, would inevitably win the war - albeit at a heavy price - and end up chained to a dead economy that'd make the re-unification of Germany look like a child's play.

The North knows that the South wouldn't want to screw itself over and keeps provoking them to blackmail the rest of the world for aid. Also, one has to hand it to the KPA: They have the largest special forces branch in the entire world - although NK commandos obviously aren't frickin' Navy SEALS - and history has shown that they cal be ruthless, imaginative and batshit crazy when they have to. If shit ever hits the fan on the Korean peninsula, I wouldn't worry so much about the possiblility of a nuclear missile strike - I would worry about the nuke that might have already been covertly smuggled into Seoul.

As for Israel, they've never outright stated nor denied that they have nuclear weapons but everyone and their dog basically knows that they have 'em. For a country this paranoia-driven due to the dark history of its people and geographically isolated in a region that basically hates its guts, it would seem very likely to have nuclear weapons. They also have the capabilities to deploy these weapons by land, air and sea and a mysterious contingency doctrine that ranges between 'nuke the entire Middle East' and 'nuke the entire Middle East as well as everyone who has ever wronged our people' depending on who you ask.
__CrUsHeR
I really have some doubts about the nuclear capability of North Korea, apparently they have a vector for the bomb (Unha-3), and recently domonstraram they are able to perform an eventual attack, however one of the biggest secrets to those who holds this technology is related to the warhead of the missile, build a warhead is not a simple process, it demands a lot of knowledge related to engineering physics, mathematics among others, and it seems they have advanced in this direction but it is unclear if they are able to perform a successful detonation, soon we'll know the true north Korean nuclear capability because they must perform a test with the warhead and the vector in the next days.

This new test that North Korea intends to accomplish involves much things, and is directly related to the interests of China in the region as well as the hegemony of the communists.

Indeed the NK has become a problem for the west and pro-western in the region.
MARS
The 'hegemony of the communists' really doesn't matter anymore these days. All the nominally 'red' countries have given up on that silly world revolution thing. China is too busy making tons of sweet money with the West and the current ideological makeup of North Korea seems more like an Asian version of nazism at this point. They've actually purged all references to communism from their constitution and are sporting a new coat of literal racism, to the point of considering themselves the 'cleanest race' and depicting others such as Americans and even South Koreans as dirty, disease-ridden subhumans. The fact that the ruling party still calls itself the Workers' Party doesn't make them commies; after all, Hitler's NSDAP was nominally a workers' party as well.
__CrUsHeR
I agree with what you said about the politics of North Korea and China, but I'm not referring to any silly ideology related to communism (world domination), I'm talking about the dictatorial red party hegemony in Asia literally, (national economic interests), the government of the Kim Jong-un has teamed up with Beijing because the affinities between both allow such partnership, North Korea has nothing to lose and China want to expand their horizons in opposition to the expansion of the pro-west countries (Vietnam, Japan, South Korea). In this scenario you have also the India and Russia that are not 'aligned' with neither side and has own interests.

Actually the story tells us that already happened before countless genocides in Asia, especially in China, unlike the west the genocide there is something 'cultural' and therefore 'acceptable' or at least indifferent to the population and governments that accustomed to writing more than 1,000 years of history with a lot of blood, there are differences between the ideology of Hitler and the regime of North Korea but one thing is fact: both degrade human life and are dangerous to the 'free world' we know.
Serialkillerwhale
The one thing i'm trying to say is this.

Israel is mostly Rational.

Iran..................Well i don't think i need to explain this one. And north korea's pretty close to believing it's own lies.

It's about risk/reward really. Iran and possibly NK are both desensitized to risk due to fanaticism. Israel, despite a religon-based government, is still pragmatic.
Serialkillerwhale
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd they fired off another one.

Personally i think someone's gonna have to pull on their leash soon.
GDIZOCOM
It was most likely a test again. They say there's something really unusual about the tremor. You're right about the point that at sooner or later someone's going to make a move. I don't like where this can go, considering how the DPRK has bent the lives of everyone towards their dear leader and how some people are willing to drag every single soul they can to the grave with them.
Shiro
They've even shown video footage this time. Guess we're in for Cuba Crisis 2.0.
Col._Sandfurz
I am absolutely not afraid of NK ICBM.. And you should also not..

To become a serious nucleat threat for US or Japan, a lot of peolpe before me have said that this will take some time.

But even today, the US (and Japan) have an answer to this: Meet the RIM-161 Standard Missile 3 aw.gif
Working since 2012, deployed to 18 vessels (afaik 3 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers and 15 Arleigh Burke guided missile destroyers) and prooven its capabilities 18 out of 20 times smile.gif

So I highly doubt those NK missiles would ever be able to reach US mainland..
Serialkillerwhale
the problem is more psychological.

Some people don't know that and this could lead to panic.
Serialkillerwhale
Just an update, but they've threatened to destroy South Korea.


Again.
flyingpancake
I dont have much insight into this besides that it all kinda starts to look like the beginning of mercenaries 1 (great ps2 game). So if this gonna end up like how most people played that game the russian maffia is gonna end up owning the country laugh.gif tongue.gif

On a more serious note though i hope that regime ends quickly, i wont even care if china take control of NK. China will at leased give the people there a small amount of freedom and financial independence. But id rather have that they get reunited with SK again, how unrealistic that may be.
Warpath
QUOTE (flyingpancake @ 24 Feb 2013, 1:23) *
On a more serious note though i hope that regime ends quickly, i wont even care if china take control of NK. China will at leased give the people there a small amount of freedom and financial independence. But id rather have that they get reunited with SK again, how unrealistic that may be.


The regime MIGHT not end in the near future but it will collapse nonetheless, problem is their average citizen is indoctrinated heavily to the point that they'll believe anything their leadership say and the one that are smart enough either escape to SK, US any other part of the world or get's sent to a 're-education' camp.

On another note, the DPRK is a fucking nightmare to live in, I mean come on there's no freedom whatsoever, little to no food, you have to what practically amounts to worshiping your leader and one wrong word means your litteraly DEAD, this is Orson Wells greatest nightmare in the flesh. I really REALLY hope that anyone American, Chinese, Russian hell bring North K. down and reunify it with South K.
MARS
North Korea is arguably the most intentionally insidious national entity since the Second World War. Worst of all, the regime isn't even trying to improve the living standards of its people, to the point where they flat-out claim that the misery is completely intentional because otherwise people would become weak and decadent.
Serialkillerwhale
That means we don't count apple?
Warpath
QUOTE (Serialkillerwhale @ 25 Feb 2013, 7:34) *
That means we don't count apple?


Yes, Apple doesn't count, it's a corporation not an country. Well, at least I think.
Kichō
Somewhat related, but did anyone see their latest propaganda video? Their profile "Uriminzokkiri" uploaded a video showing what appears to be New York with an American flag shrouded in flames with an instrumental version of Michael Jackson's "We Are The World" in the background.

Now here comes the funny part, Activision got the video pulled because they claimed the footage was from Modern Warfare 3.

I8.gif
__CrUsHeR
That's why Iam more afraid of the big gaming companies like EA and Actvision than that of NK nuclear. tongue.gif
MARS
Apparently, NK is currently threatening to discontinue the armistice agreement and sever the communications hotline with Seoul because SK and the US are going to run another exercise in the coming days. Not like that 'agreement' has ever been particularly important to the North, considering those flagrant spec-ops incursions and flat-out attacks on Southern territory we get every once in a while...
Mr.Kim
Even North Korea have an ICBM, there still one problem.

Lack of funds.
Warpath
QUOTE (MARS @ 5 Mar 2013, 19:34) *
Apparently, NK is currently threatening to discontinue the armistice agreement and sever the communications hotline with Seoul because SK and the US are going to run another exercise in the coming days. Not like that 'agreement' has ever been particularly important to the North, considering those flagrant spec-ops incursions and flat-out attacks on Southern territory we get every once in a while...


The Norks must have huge balls to do those attacks, If they (US and South K.) finally get pissed off from the attacks and war does break out we can expect most if not all North K. military forces COMPLETELY obliterated (that's if they don't run out of fuel) by combined U.S. and South K. airstrikes and cruise missile attacks and the subsequent ground invasion (that's if China doesn't intervene for the Norks) withing two weeks or within a month or two, but not after Seoul is destroyed, unfortunately.
MARS
As I always say: NK's biggest deterrent against a foreign invasion is neither its oversized yet ill-equipped army nor its possible nuclear potential. It is the fact that neither SK, nor the US nor China would be willing to clean up the unprecedented humanitarian mess that'd be left in the wake of the invasion. Whoever ends up taking that burden - most likely SK - would end up economically crippled for decades because the country's infrastructure/industry is horrendously underdeveloped and the workforce is undereducated and politically indoctrinated to a point at which it wouldn't even be useful for cheap labour. That's the problem here: Unlike the East Germans in the former GDR, most North Koreans don't actually yearn for liberation. They live in a sealed off country where the state teaches them, from the cradle to the grave, that they're a master race, that their leader is a literal deity and that all foreigners are evil subhumans. The fact that no one wants to turn this utter mess of a nation into something remotely modern is the sole reason why NK still exists and gets away with all the bullshit it pulls off. The only thing that would ever change that is if they force everyone else's hand by mounting a literal invasion or nuking Seoul.
Serialkillerwhale
So true.

The only thing we can hope for is mass information warfare.
Distribute facts and hope it works, and maybe in a few generations, it'll be something salvageable.

That or glass the place with napalm, either works.

Really, it's almost medieval. They have a "God on earth" for a leader, a ruling military, starving populace, rabid nationalism.

Seems like we're seeing a time capsule of what the world used to be like.
Shiro
Talking about "generations" is the exact problem. Everyone hoped the new boss would change the course. Well OF COURSE he won't, he's been teached from his birth since that he can do whatever the hell he wants. So hoping that somehow new generations of NK will embrace change it utter nonsense. As MARS said, unlike the people of the GDR who were trained to read between the lines and ignore all the bullshit the SED tried to spoon-feed them, NK people don't want that.

The sad sole solution is to take the entire population apart and spread it across the globe to make them realise how it is to live in a place where you don't have to hunt a sole rice packge down that fell from a truck.
Serialkillerwhale
I know, but the one thing i'm trying to say. It's simply that we have to do either this or some other way of reintergrating NK into the world.
It's either this or razing the place down to the ground and starting again.

There's gotta be some way to turn them around, but we'll be long dead before that happens.
Warpath
QUOTE (Serialkillerwhale @ 9 Mar 2013, 11:56) *
I know, but the one thing i'm trying to say. It's simply that we have to do either this or some other way of reintergrating NK into the world.
It's either this or razing the place down to the ground and starting again.

There's gotta be some way to turn them around, but we'll be long dead before that happens.


It can be changed for the better of the North K. people but we have to first destroy the government that controls them first, but we would have the problem of keeping the Nork population alive until modern integration begins so it MIGHT be able to change but we might not be alive to see it.
GDIZOCOM
Bump.

Here's North Korea's latest adventure in the realm of propaganda videos featuring them tearing a hole in South Korea and taking 150,000 American Citizens for prisoners

They also said they're ready strike Hawaii, SoKor, Guam and America with "long range equipment". The KPA says all their forces are "Class-A Ready". ani8(1).gif


I just want to ask myself one thing now: Do they have ANY idea what the hell they're getting themselves into? If this really happens, we'll see some action and sooner or later someone will make a video game about this (ex. Call of Duty 24: The Korean Peninsula). I know they're going to lose but then again if they lose I don't think anyone is willing to put a destroyed North Korea on their back.

Any thoughts about the video? I'd like to see how they stand up to US Aircraft. I'm not being a fanboy here, I just really want to see how the North fairs against the US in real-time to be honest 8llaniflip.gif
MARS
I like how they 'simulated' their airborne invasion of Seoul or how some of the paratroopers drop into an ongoing infantry charge; kinda defeats the point of using paratroopers. The best part about this is the ultra-cheesy, vaguely 80s sounding music though.
Warpath
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! laugh.gif That was freaking hilarious, I can already see US, SK and maybe Japanese jets blowing up Pyongyang. On a final note, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! laugh.gif
GDIZOCOM
QUOTE (MARS @ 26 Mar 2013, 12:48) *
I like how they 'simulated' their airborne invasion of Seoul or how some of the paratroopers drop into an ongoing infantry charge; kinda defeats the point of using paratroopers. The best part about this is the ultra-cheesy, vaguely 80s sounding music though.


I find the part where the repeat an explosion over and over while displaying images of the US Navy and other enemy armies the most interesting mindfuck.gif
Serialkillerwhale
Who directed that? Michael Bay?

Seriously, over half of that video was explosions.
Warpath
Looks like the Norks are going nuts again "North K. cuts all channels with the South, War may break out soon", can't they just sulk in a corner while we live on with our lives?

What do you guys think?
__CrUsHeR
I thought they already had cut this line of contact with Seoul before. huh.gif With each passing day they "cut" anything, next week they cut the carrier pigeons, the road "x", expulsion another "spy" infiltrated into the country and so on. This war was "warm" for a long time, now it has become "cold".
MARS
From what I remember, all of these threatening gestures they're pulling now have happened before. It looks all dramatic but its part of their shtick. Now, if the Norks
actually go as far as closing down Kaesong, that -would- be a cause for concern but they probably wouldn't do that unless they really are going start an actual war.
Pepo
Well NK are crazy but a nuclear attack would be a suicide.i doubt their missiles have the systems to be accurate(one of the hardest part of an icbm are the system to be accurate)the ussr have so many missiles so that in case one missile fail the target,other one will hit it.in case of nk they doesn't have enougth missiles ,so in case they fail ,they are doom.also nk only says the missiles that work;i bet that most of their missiles will fall to the ocean.also a scenario where usa is invaded have a 0.0000000001 % chances of being true

The video make me laugth
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Warpath
QUOTE (Pepo @ 28 Mar 2013, 16:40) *
Well NK are crazy but a nuclear attack would be a suicide.i doubt their missiles have the systems to be accurate(one of the hardest part of an icbm are the system to be accurate)the ussr have so many missiles so that in case one missile fail the target,other one will hit it.in case of nk they doesn't have enougth missiles ,so in case they fail ,they are doom.also nk only says the missiles that work;i bet that most of their missiles will fall to the ocean.also a scenario where usa is invaded have a 0.0000000001 % chances of being true

The video make me laugth
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


Heh, that depends IF those missiles even successfully launch and it just blows up in there faces, ahhh the hilarity of seeing them fail epically is worth it.
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