Balancing RotR Options

[Rushing Rasputin]

Since I havent seen a stickied thread or a thread dedicated for balance, I would want to start one.

With the new release of 1.85 we would see alot of new balancing issues.

I would start of my list:
ECA Claymore's minimum range is way too large.

Repurposing Tesla Tank to a better suited AT role? (Nerfing its AI potency by making it only zap once?) The Buratino does the AI from a further distance and arguably more efficiently.

Golem's main gun rate of fire is pretty meh IMO. Their models are really big and usually makes my army bunch up so I just get Kodiaks and Sentinels.

I also think the Marauder Tanks are too expensive. Might be wrong on this one but it takes hard work to preserve Marauders enough to get their T2 Salvage upgrades.

Please do post constructive criticism and your own opinions about balance.

[XAttus]

Feedback is appreciated, however there is a major difference between AI skirimish and pvp balancing. Something tells me that you are basing this on the former. And of course we are heavily focusing on the later.

Also saying that x needs to be changed "in my opinion" is not gonna cut it. A clear reason with examples is a needed for us to even remotely consider it seriously.

For example I found out that the underused mortar weapon on buggies is actually godlike against unit blobs if you have enough of them. Couple that with the instant weapon switching and you get a really versatile unit that can both dish out awesome single target burst or insane AoE DPS at the same time. And all of it for only 900 which means late game you can spam them in very large numbers if you have the money for it.

[Mizo]

Feedback is appreciated, however there is a major difference between AI skirimish and pvp balancing. Something tells me that you are basing this on the former. And of course we are heavily focusing on the later.

Also saying that x needs to be changed "in my opinion" is not gonna cut it. A clear reason with examples is a needed for us to even remotely consider it seriously.

For example I found out that the underused mortar weapon on buggies is actually godlike against unit blobs if you have enough of them. Couple that with the instant weapon switching and you get a really versatile unit that can both dish out awesome single target burst or insane AoE DPS at the same time. And all of it for only 900 which means late game you can spam them in very large numbers if you have the money for it.

I was at the receiving end of that.....and it was nasty, I kinda hoped that the Motar placement would be either an upgrade or make the buggies more expensive.

[Skitt]

on an ai skirmish point of view
may i just say that the sentinal is a bit op.

Group of 9 , 3 hard comp bases 1 china 2 russia, not a problem.

was like playing ra2 again with apocalypse tanks

[Shiro]

Please always remember that the mod is balanced for PvP 10k games and AI battles are only an offshoot of that. There will of course always be attempts to get battles against AI as balanced as possible but first comes PvP; and as XAttus said, give reasons why something might be better off changed. Best would be a specific scenario that cannot be countered, which is why for example Vanguard Turrets got axed since the Vanguardbomb was way OP and almost if not completely impossible to counter.

[Zion]

Hey Guys, I have a few suggestions for balancing. And I found a small glitch.

GLA I think has some issues.
when it comes to ECO vs the strength of the army. Now I know people like XAttus, Ulater or other pro GLA players are gana tell me to deal with it, but there are alot of people like me who are not pro yet.. (Why I am saying this) is because I think the game should be balanced for good- to -pro players. As of right now you need to be pro GLA to win any match against the new and improved ECA, Russia, and USA...

The Rocket upgrade for scorpions has been moved to the Chemical plant? Why, not sure,,, but in early game scorpions need that upgrade, until you can afford muraders, I build my chemical lab very late, since I am trying to attack and take some supply docks, and trying to upgrade that cash in the black market... I don't have money for the chemical lab at this point.
(So far I have lost every match against Russia, because the scorpions are weak tanks, all the other player has to do is build 2 kodiaks and some infantry, and any noob can hold his position, and GLA is useless for early game play, Unless ofcourse you are so good you can micro units to win)

And as far as the whole pay $2000 for $35 every 2 seconds? I think think this is torture .. every other team has eco that is wayy better investment. If a map has one supply dock, and you can't get your second supply going, now you are broke and have to pay 2000 for each level of cash flow. Honesty this is making me avoid GLA, I can beat a few noobs ..but thats it.. I think the bounty is cool, but there needs to be a better setup for eco.

What I think should be done.. Move the scorpion rocket back to black market. and get rid of the "separate" bounty and cash, join them together.. plus make the upgrades a little faster and maybe $500 level 1 $750 level 2 and $1000 for final level. because seriously GLA needs some easier way to get some cash, and by the time I get any of those current cash upgrades, Russia already has a full industrial plant of suppliers, or eca with the towers, and so on for the other teams. What I would love to see is another way of making money, because GLA is useless in later in the game, and people like me are not good enough to take advantage of the bounty. how about scrap shacks that act similar to USA cash droppers and only make them available for level 5 generals when at that point you will know if you need that ability to stay in the game longer. (let me know If you understand this) I seriously think this will balance things better, cuz right now I am avoiding GLA for multiplayer when I am against Russia or USA. cuz i just have no change..

So far love the game. and please respect my input, let me know if you agree with this Thanks!

Oh and the glitch I found when putting the panzerfaust guy inside a pandur, he exits immediately and its just glitching, I have not tried other infantry inside pandur.

This post has been edited by Zion: 2 Apr 2015, 15:47

[Knjaz.]

Hey Guys, I have a few suggestions for balancing. And I found a small glitch.

GLA I think has some issues.
when it comes to ECO vs the strength of the army. Now I know people like XAttus, Ulater or other pro GLA players are gana tell me to deal with it, but there are alot of people like me who are not pro yet.. (Why I am saying this) is because I think the game should be balanced for good- to -pro players. As of right now you need to be pro GLA to win any match against the new and improved ECA, Russia, and USA...

The Rocket upgrade for scorpions has been moved to the Chemical plant? Why, not sure,,,

Cause I was complaining they were OP and to prove my point made few "testgames" with Crmson/Dutchy, where they were highly displeased that I used them as test subjects for scorps.
I'm pretty sure they'll tell you better about how OP those things were in RotR environment.

And as far as the whole pay $2000 for $35 every 2 seconds? I think think this is torture .. every other team has eco that is wayy better investment.

Nope. This investment has best return rates among all of sececo's. Or second best, I don't remember what repayment rates Telecom Relay had. (not the Tower.).
This just shows how much research you've put in before writing this post, so I didn't read the rest. As XAttus said, please, put some more effort before going into balance discussion.

P.S. Actually, I did take a look a bit further.

What I think should be done.. Move the scorpion rocket back to black market. and get rid of the "separate" bounty and cash, join them together.. plus make the upgrades a little faster and maybe $500 level 1 $750 level 2 and $1000 for final level.

So it'll be like 1802 GLA eco, but costing 500/750/1000 and having less time to research, right?
I'm outta here.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 2 Apr 2015, 16:13

[LayZboy]

Mortar Tracks in Vehicle dugouts should start firing at the 3rd stage of their fire speed rather than starting at 1. They also don't seem to target anything sometimes.
Thought recycler upgrades where supposed to cost some money but it doesn't seem like they do.

[X1Destroy]

I wonder why Pyro was nerfed so badly. 50% damage reduced, cost more to train and still explode violently upon death....

The only reason why I use it is to put it in a bunker with 4 tank hunters. Now maybe it's not even needed, since I can train minigun teams.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 2 Apr 2015, 18:57

[XAttus]

it's nerfed because of nasty rushes + garrison clearing ability that you get from the start of the game. It's still powerful especially on urban maps.

[Zion]

Cause I was complaining they were OP and to prove my point made few "testgames" with Crmson/Dutchy, where they were highly displeased that I used them as test subjects for scorps.
I'm pretty sure they'll tell you better about how OP those things were in RotR environment.



Nope. This investment has best return rates among all of sececo's. Or second best, I don't remember what repayment rates Telecom Relay had. (not the Tower.).
This just shows how much research you've put in before writing this post, so I didn't read the rest. As XAttus said, please, put some more effort before going into balance discussion.

P.S. Actually, I did take a look a bit further.


So it'll be like 1802 GLA eco, but costing 500/750/1000 and having less time to research, right?
I'm outta here.

Hey Knjaz I'm happy you answered quick and you did answer a few things, and a few good points, but just for the record, I know everyone wants to sound smart around here, "you for sure" if you can't finish reading the whole post then don't bother answering me, (that's not an insult) but its kind of an insult when you tell me that everything I just wrote has no effort into it. Im not asking the developers to add an overlord into the GLA faction, my suggestions are thought through, but my Ideas are not backed up by an essay of my research, (apparently that's what you say you want) ... not doing that, Im saying like it is, If you can beat me with just scorpions and the rocket upgrade, in a 1v1, im not gana call the rockets "OP" its because you know how to use them, but for us "normal good players" that rocket upgrade is necessary. Whats next? Knjaz vs Zion .... Zion looses to Knjaz from a technical rush.. oh no dem technicals r OP man i swear...

and my statement of what I would do, is an exaggerated statement, Im not sitting there with a calculator trying to work out prices.. That the developers job, that's just my way of saying "hey how about we fix the eco for the GLA" so us normal players, that are not as good at managing money as others, don't have to loose to the new factions. Making it harder for GLA to produce money is not a fix for the old 1.802 i thought the eco in the old one worked pretty well, and GLA was certainly not OP in the last release.

If you guys don't want people posting suggestions for future, then tell us to stop, but seriously knjaz, you sound like "i run this town son" "do your research"

The only way ROTR can be fun, if we treat everyone with respect and build a community, no one wants to play a game where the big guys ignore everyone else. I can honestly say that the only reason I am still playing rise of the reds online, is when I played with XAttus, and this guy instead of calling me a noob, actually took the time to explain things to me and help me improve my game play. So please re read my post and take note of it.

Thanks

[Knjaz.]

Ok, kind sir, would you please explain how I'm supposed to act when someone throws complete nonsense at us, balance wise? Like the numbers you've proposed with the black market upgrades, or the claim that passive sec.eco upgrade is the worst investment taking into account it's price and income rate, when it's in fact best?

I just pointed out it was a nonsense, and that you should try better next time or, preferably, get more experience with the game first.

I wasn't running to the forum trying to talk about balance issues when I just joined the community, I was getting my arse handed to me again, and again and again by top players until they bashed some understanding of the gameplay into me, for which I'm very grateful to them.

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 2 Apr 2015, 22:24

[Skitt]

"you for sure" if you can't finish reading the whole post then don't bother answering me, (that's not an insult)

that is an insult btw

[Rushing Rasputin]

So I have just played some PvP games with my friends. Now I do see why PvP is much different against AI since the AI just throws all their units at you and overwhelms you.

Some things I've observed. (Russia vs USA) (ECA vs Russia)

My Golems would lose against Paladins most of the time. Even if I use the Golem's ability, what my friend would do is just back his Paladins out and I cant really give chase since they are slow.

Kodiaks chew through their Crusaders really fast. They also do really well against Paladins. They also cant really kite the Kodiaks as I can use the Reflex to shoot down the stranglers.

(A sidenote: How do you use Hokums to strafe and shoot their ATGMs? We did another match but this time I used ECA and he used Russia and he killed off my armored column quickly since I didnt have Wotans and the Gepards were not able to catch up against his hit and runs.)

Panzerfausts are kinda underwhelming compared to the RPG Conscripts IMO. Maybe its because they are going against tougher armor but they feel underwhelming.

Just my thoughts. For the more experience RotR players, do tell what are we doing wrong and give your opinion on what is OP and UP.

This post has been edited by Rushing Rasputin: 3 Apr 2015, 3:20

[M01]

So I haveeffectsayed some PvP games with my friends. Now I do see why PvP is much different against AI since the AI just throws all their units at you and overwhelms you.

Some things I've observed. (Russia vs USA) (ECA vs Russia)

My Golems would lose against Paladins most of the time. Even if I use the Golem's ability, what my friend would do is just back his Paladins out and I cant really give chase since they are slow.

Kodiaks chew through their Crusaders really fast. They also do really well against Paladins. They also cant really kite the Kodiaks as I can use the Reflex to shoot down the stranglers.

(A sidenote: How do you use Hokums to strafe and shoot their ATGMs? We did another match but this time I used ECA and he used Russia and he killed off my armored column quickly since I didnt have Wotans and the Gepards were not able to catch up against his hit and runs.)

Panzerfausts are kinda underwhelming compared to the RPG Conscripts IMO. Maybe its because they are going against tougher armor but they feel underwhelming.

Just my thoughts. For the more experience RotR players, do tell what are we doing wrong and give your opinion on what is OP and UP.

1) What your friend did is actually amazing, that's great micro. For you I suggest, when they fall back to avoid your abilities, fall back too. And bring some Kodiaks with you. Lets say make the golems take the damage and let the Kodiaks eat up the paladins
2) Kodiaks are stronger than any other tanks of equivalent tier. To which it is at advantage, you should be alert for the american drones and air support.
3) Panzerfausts are a bit inferior to the rpg Conscripts as they use guided rockets while panzerfausts uses something
Like a grenade launcher, hence most of it's damage will miss the target (splash effects) consider placing them inside structures and fortifications
there you will see a difference.

[Rushing Rasputin]

1) What your friend did is actually amazing, that's great micro. For you I suggest, when they fall back to avoid your abilities, fall back too. And bring some Kodiaks with you. Lets say make the golems take the damage and let the Kodiaks eat up the paladins
2) Kodiaks are stronger than any other tanks of equivalent tier. To which it is at advantage, you should be alert for the american drones and air support.
3) Panzerfausts are a bit inferior to the rpg Conscripts as they use guided rockets while panzerfausts uses something
Like a grenade launcher, hence most of it's damage will miss the target (splash effects) consider placing them inside structures and fortifications
there you will see a difference.

1) Shouldn't Golems still win the engagement since like the Kodiak, they are supposed to be the heaviest tank pound for pound? He did have Hold the Line as his strategy.

2) Was just suprised how effective the Kodiaks are against the US.

Some more notes I made:
In a fight with the GLA Grad should I use the sustained barrage or the burst barrage? Also how do the Grad salvage upgrades work? I see no major difference.

[X1Destroy]

Golem is slow and big. Paladin have the same size and speed of Kodiak, and is very tough when fully upgraded with composite armor and Hold the line strategy.

It's better to use Kodiak to fight Paladin as it have been buffed greatly in 1.85, having long range ATGM, increased health and reduced cost.

[SiR Chaff]

It's better to use Kodiak to fight Paladin as it have been buffed greatly in 1.85, having long range ATGM, increased health and reduced cost.

You're forgetting Paladins have PDLs which can pew pew most, if not all, of the ATGMs, especially if mass-produced.

So its actually better to have Kodiaks at default mode and support them with Mstas when facing against Paladins. The new RPG conscripts are also helpful against Paladins when upgraded with the Advanced Infantry Munitions upgrade.

This post has been edited by SiR Chaff: 3 Apr 2015, 10:51

[X1Destroy]

Well yes, but the ATGM is still useful for chasing retreating damaged Paladins.

Even though the Frogfoot is gone, Russia is no longer the second hardest to play faction anymore. It have become strong, and powerful like how it should have been as a powerhouse faction.

My only disappointment is that Berkut can no longer use missiles against ground units anymore. Still, that doesn't matter because I rarely use the airforce.

This post has been edited by X1Destroy: 3 Apr 2015, 11:17

[Knjaz.]

So I have just played some PvP games with my friends. Now I do see why PvP is much different against AI since the AI just throws all their units at you and overwhelms you.

Some things I've observed. (Russia vs USA) (ECA vs Russia)

My Golems would lose against Paladins most of the time. Even if I use the Golem's ability, what my friend would do is just back his Paladins out and I cant really give chase since they are slow.

They have same speed, but a range advantage on SND, I think.
Anyway, example from previous version - 1 golem would always beat 1 paladin on the field, in a head on battle, with like 20% hp left.
13 Golems would always lose to 13 Paladins, with at least 2-3 Paladins still standing.

Golem is a bit oversized for it's actual hp/dmg stats, but it has it's uses- though I admit that I probably don't have sufficient experience with 1.85 Golems, since I find myself fielding Sents more often. Should pay more attention to them in future, probably.

Kodiaks chew through their Crusaders really fast. They also do really well against Paladins. They also cant really kite the Kodiaks as I can use the Reflex to shoot down the stranglers.

That's an interesting experience, cause Avenger covered Paladins (and if you use Paladins, you _always_ have at least 1 Avenger with you, cause +50% ROF) should wreck Kodiaks, especially ATGM Kodiaks. In theory.

Got a replay by any chance?

This post has been edited by Knjaz.: 3 Apr 2015, 12:37

[Rushing Rasputin]

Sadly, I didn't have any replays. I also forgot to clarify about the Kodiak tanks. They were facing a mix of Acolytes, Paladins and Crusaders. (More on the Crusaders) and I had a pure platoon of BMPs and Kodiaks.

Yes some of the ATGMs were getting intercepted but nonetheless I was able to pick off some tanks before starting the real engagement. I got to pick off like 7 Crusaders that weren't properly covered by the Paladins and I won by brute force.

Now I also realised how important range is. I think Golems are really good against a Russian Mirror Match or against China/GLA since they can't really out range them. (Save their slow moving arty and rocket buggies) And against USA and ECA they are quite lackluster.

Tesla Tanks though, having a tough time to integrate them to my armoured strategies for Russia. They are thinly armoured and they have meh range. Their firing rate is also really bad so they are bad against tanks. (They also don't benefit from ERA) While the Buratino does much better for anti infantry role.

I also forgot to mention I had some RPG Conscripts with Advanced Munitions Upgrade which did help a lot against his force.

This post has been edited by Rushing Rasputin: 4 Apr 2015, 6:14

[Barmaley123]

how to make artificial intelligence that will use the missile silos and Topol-M with balance at all factions? I want to meet with full AI in Russia and other factions that they will use all the new things in the new version 1.85 it would look good

[Rohan]

Some things that I noticed :-

1) Sometimes, I see that you cannot build command centres. It says that it requires Faction "Insert Name Here (America, GLA,etc). What's that ?

2) The Command Truck deploys at the moment you click the Deploy Button. I wonder if you can get an selection option similar to how you place buildings ?

3) All General Point Unlocks have a "Requires Unlock" text. This in my opinion is very vague. A beginner would easily get confused and wonder what's the unlock ? "General's Promotion" sounds better.

4) The GLA "Bounty" and "Firearms" upgrades, for me it's hard to tell which upgrade has being purchased and which one not, cause the Fading of the icon for purchased upgrade is not clear.

[(USA)Bruce]

Some things that I noticed :-

1) Sometimes, I see that you cannot build command centres. It says that it requires Faction "Insert Name Here (America, GLA,etc). What's that ?

2) The Command Truck deploys at the moment you click the Deploy Button. I wonder if you can get an selection option similar to how you place buildings ?

3) All General Point Unlocks have a "Requires Unlock" text. This in my opinion is very vague. A beginner would easily get confused and wonder what's the unlock ? "General's Promotion" sounds better.

4) The GLA "Bounty" and "Firearms" upgrades, for me it's hard to tell which upgrade has being purchased and which one not, cause the Fading of the icon for purchased upgrade is not clear.

1-You cannot build other factions HQ's only thier buildings and units.
2-I dont get it
3-General promotion unlock might be better but if that somebody doesnt know how to use general powers in an over 10 year old game then I have no words...
4-I agree with this, might get a future change possibly...

[Shockwavelover84]

Here's a few ideas of mine:

1. Unless this is done for balance reasons, I think SEALs should destroy Russian Bunkers when they blow up Russian buildings; SEALs usually end up dying from the Conscripts with no way to counter them. I also don't recall if C4 destroys GLA holes, but again unless there's a balance reason for the way things are - C4 should either destroy the holes, or the holes should be destructible with another C4 charge.