Would ROTR ever get a competitive scene similar to ZH?, A discussion about what makes ZH good. Options

[Mizo]

So Zerohour, from what I've seen on youtube, has a ridiculously dedicated fan base of people playing it in the competitive scene, but are not very reluctant to try other mods. This is odd to me, since I've heard from alot of people that ZH does have its fair share of imbalances and imperfections that other mods do fix.

Now I never really tried Zerohour, but rather played Shockwave a couple of times ( since it is the closest thing to ZH) but was kinda put off with all the bloat-ness every faction had.

Several Ex-ZH players who later on tried ROTR, loved the mod, saying that it fixes alot of the issues ZH has. ( Not without having it's own ofcoure). I for one, liked this mod due to it being closer to Generals rather than ZH, something that am quiet used to.

But even with all those claims , a lot of ZH players ( Notebly Veterans) are not reluctant to try out ROTR, or other mods in that matter, or are extremely put off with ROTR's gameplay.

So here are my questions:

1/ What's so different about ZH and ROTR gameplay anyways, since I really didn't dive in to the game to actually get a good grasp on the differences ( Mostly due to not having enough time)?
2/ For Ex-ZH players/Veterans, why from your prespective would those differences put them off from trying it out?What makes them love ZH so much?
3/ For Ex-ZH + Beta Testers/Expirienced ROTR players, What's the Skill cap Difference between the 2 games? Is one harder than another? Is the skill level of an average ZH player better/worse than the skill level of an average ROTR player? ( yep try to figure that out XD )
4/ As of now, from what you guys see, would ROTR ever get a good competitive scene ?

Well , hopefully I elaborated my points well. This might've been Necro'd , I don't know, but still am quiet interested to read all yer answers

[ComradeCrimson]

So Zerohour, from what I've seen on youtube, has a ridiculously dedicated fan base of people playing it in the competitive scene, but are not very reluctant to try other mods. This is odd to me, since I've heard from alot of people that ZH does have its fair share of imbalances and imperfections that other mods do fix.

Now I never really tried Zerohour, but rather played Shockwave a couple of times ( since it is the closest thing to ZH) but was kinda put off with all the bloat-ness every faction had.

Several Ex-ZH players who later on tried ROTR, loved the mod, saying that it fixes alot of the issues ZH has. ( Not without having it's own ofcoure). I for one, liked this mod due to it being closer to Generals rather than ZH, something that am quiet used to.

But even with all those claims , a lot of ZH players ( Notebly Veterans) are not reluctant to try out ROTR, or other mods in that matter, or are extremely put off with ROTR's gameplay.

So here are my questions:

1/ What's so different about ZH and ROTR gameplay anyways, since I really didn't dive in to the game to actually get a good grasp on the differences ( Mostly due to not having enough time)?
2/ For Ex-ZH players/Veterans, why from your prespective would those differences put them off from trying it out?What makes them love ZH so much?
3/ For Ex-ZH + Beta Testers/Expirienced ROTR players, What's the Skill cap Difference between the 2 games? Is one harder than another? Is the skill level of an average ZH player better/worse than the skill level of an average ROTR player? ( yep try to figure that out XD )
4/ As of now, from what you guys see, would ROTR ever get a good competitive scene ?

Well , hopefully I elaborated my points well. This might've been Necro'd , I don't know, but still am quiet interested to read all yer answers

I can tell you one of the issues a lot of ZH players have coming into ROTR is that a lot of age old strategies such as Rocketvee's and other ZH born strategies are completely denied by ROTR's mechanics, and the new factions are seen as a huge change from the original gameplay. There is also a lot of other changes that are just unsettling or quite different from ZH. A sort of shock to the system. Such as selling your command center not being profitable, as a lot of ZH players and shockwave both sold their command centers to get a cash boost at the start of a round, and only rebuilt one later after you needed more builders or if you wanted to utilize your general's powers.

Quite frankly as someone whose played both, the key difference is the overall mechanics and certain changes that have mostly caused a ripple with preventing old strategies that a lot of people came to rely on in ZH. And this pisses a lot of folks off, and they don't want to adapt to the new system and change.

But then again, this is a mod with its own mechanics bringing new content. And it fixes a lot of issues ZH had and expands upon the gameplay to a great extent with new features for all factions, as well as the most obvious one, two whole new factions.


As for the original question of, would ROTR ever develop a competitive scene?

I believe it very much will; it might not be as long lived as the ZH scene but it'll be fairly substantial. Considering how much time is devoted to discussing and sorting balance and how planned out things are with this project, its not unlikely- as someone whose on the team, I can tell you everything is scrutinized, looked over and constantly debated on stats and implications of units and other strategies. Things are also very well planned out, there is established plans for everything all the way up to 2.0, with the odd changes or additions here and there. But for the most part were on a fairly firm course.

Of course, even though I might be able to tango with competitive players off and on, my heart lies mostly with cooperative gameplay and singleplayer stuff so for me personally I dunno if I'd get involved in that scene. I'm not a fan of the cocky elitism such environments can often breed.

This post has been edited by ComradeCrimson: 26 Mar 2015, 6:46

[Tipu7]

There is huge difference between ZH and ROTR.
Its like comparing a family car with sports car

1: ROTR is more complex and diverse than ZH. It has more units, more strategies, and more options. They both may look alike but units common in both games are different actually in performance. Like a ZH Raptor is different than ROTR Raptor etc etc

2: I don't know why people still play or love ZH and Generals. ROTR is way more better in every field.

3: ROTR is more ''hard'' than ZH and require more skill. An expert ZH player can be called as ''newbie'' when compared with ROTR expert. ROTR has more armored and effective units. Defensive structures do not detect stealth which is a huge difference in any strategy development. Also ZH actually represent 3 type of game plays, in ROTR their r five type of game plays. etc etc etc (so much uncommon things that I find this place too short to write)

4: I don't think there is any mode competitive enough to challenge ROTR.

[Skitt]

i prefer zh over generals. but tbh i think thats cos i love fire base's, and rotr over zh

pritty much what comrade said.
a lot of the zh strategy's just dont work with rotr (eg: 6 humvies loaded with 1 pathfinder and 4 rocket guys completely decimating any gla base)

Lets face it we gamer's are a lazy bunch who tend to get stuck in our ways with how we do things.

(mindset)
why learn a whole new mechanics system and new stratergys. when we can just do what we already know and have spent lots of time perfecting

[Knjaz.]

3: ROTR is more ''hard'' than ZH and require more skill. An expert ZH player can be called as ''newbie'' when compared with ROTR expert. ROTR has more armored and effective units. Defensive structures do not detect stealth which is a huge difference in any strategy development. Also ZH actually represent 3 type of game plays, in ROTR their r five type of game plays. etc etc etc (so much uncommon things that I find this place too short to write)

I'd disagree here.
The gameplay in ZH and RotR is different to an extent where being very skilled/experienced in one, doesn't give you alot in the other one. Throw me into ZH and I'll fail hard, real hard.

[XAttus]

well I can only confirm what others before me have stated, though I have not played the original competitively I know the major differences and I strongly prefer ROTR's pvp gameplay over the original.

The mod is very popular and even though most of it's playerbase plays offline skirmish, SWR.net will allow simple and easy access to multiplayer so I expect many new people who will give it go as well as those who are already familiar with the mod in competitive play.

So yeah in my opinion there is a fair chance that a new pvp oriented community will form shortly after the release.

[Hecthor Doomhamm...]

All I will say about this matter is: Trust me, I will personally make sure it will be competitive

[The_Hunter]

What might also be usefull to consider once 1.85 is released is to update all the articles on the wiki http://generalsrotr.wikia.com/wiki/Rise_Of_The_Reds_Wiki

Once everything is updated and all the new units and abilities are properly documented new players can indulge themselves in it and learn a few things from these if they really intend to know the ins and outs of the game.

[HoneyBee]

Yeah, SWR.net will probably bring in more people to MP. Hamachi was always a pain to me, but even so I still tried and enjoyed it (inb4 a mismatch or tremendous amount of lag). But with an easier way to access MP I also expect more people to jump into it soon.

I think Crimson's response pretty much sums up everything.

[Tipu7]

I'd disagree here.
The gameplay in ZH and RotR is different to an extent where being very skilled/experienced in one, doesn't give you alot in the other one. Throw me into ZH and I'll fail hard, real hard.

ZH is ''easy'' to master thanks to its simplicity..................ROTR require more skill and time experience to become a good player. I am actually comparing the ''level'' of skill required to master respective games. A ZH expert will take twice or thrice time to become master in ROTR. on the other hand a ROTR master take way lesser time to become ZH master. yes u r right that at initial attempts a ROTR player will fail in ZH too............. but let him play a bit more........... he will learn it very easily (although he will ruin his ROTR game in process )

[Loluthinks]

There is huge difference between ZH and ROTR.
Its like comparing a family car with sports car

1: ROTR is more complex and diverse than ZH. It has more units, more strategies, and more options. They both may look alike but units common in both games are different actually in performance. Like a ZH Raptor is different than ROTR Raptor etc etc

2: I don't know why people still play or love ZH and Generals. ROTR is way more better in every field.

3: ROTR is more ''hard'' than ZH and require more skill. An expert ZH player can be called as ''newbie'' when compared with ROTR expert. ROTR has more armored and effective units. Defensive structures do not detect stealth which is a huge difference in any strategy development. Also ZH actually represent 3 type of game plays, in ROTR their r five type of game plays. etc etc etc (so much uncommon things that I find this place too short to write)

4: I don't think there is any mode competitive enough to challenge ROTR.

this.

I Understand This Mod Still Have some From ZH and if not were for ZH, ROTR dint exist, but lets face it, all people like new things, with the time, ZH will dissapear and ROTR will prevail.

This post has been edited by Loluthinks: 26 Mar 2015, 18:22

[zourv]

imo there are few 'technical'things needed to make rotr popular, online etc,

Fast release of balance and bugfix patches , so the players wont get frustrated with some op unit. and bugs (just balance and bugfixes, no new content),
Some promo/ tournaments etc.
Add rotr to gameranger, many zh players will notice new C&C game in the list and maybe they will check it out, i know there will be swrnet but gr is also important.

This post has been edited by zourv: 27 Mar 2015, 10:25

[Evan]

ROTR is essentially ZH++

Which to me means that the ZH "pro's" and I use that term extreeeeeeemely loosely. There are no Micheal Jordan's of Zero Hour. But nonetheless, they should be able to adapt to ROTR the same way they adapted coming to ZH from Generals.

But if there's change there's people to bitch about it. UNITED STATES VOTERS.

[Drury]

ROTR is essentially ZH++

Which to me means that the ZH "pro's" and I use that term extreeeeeeemely loosely. There are no Micheal Jordan's of Zero Hour. But nonetheless, they should be able to adapt to ROTR the same way they adapted coming to ZH from Generals.

But if there's change there's people to bitch about it. UNITED STATES VOTERS.

ROTR removes stuff and adds stuff that would never be in ZH, it's not ZH++... Same way Red Alert 3 isn't CnC3. It's just a whole another thing altogether.

This post has been edited by Drury: 28 Mar 2015, 22:14

[Serialkillerwhal...]

ZH+++ is Shockwave. ROTR is more like C&C:G 2 Explosive Boogaloo.

[Rohan]

There are many things that you learn in ROTR which when used in ZH give you a big advantage. I mean come on, I never even knew that scouting was even remotely relevant until I played ROTR.

[kezsonaj]

End game play is definitely the biggest difference in ROTR. There are a lot more end game units in Rise of the Reds, which can break up those tied games pretty fast.

[SqUak]

So Zerohour, from what I've seen on youtube, has a ridiculously dedicated fan base of people playing it in the competitive scene, but are not very reluctant to try other mods. This is odd to me, since I've heard from alot of people that ZH does have its fair share of imbalances and imperfections that other mods do fix.

Now I never really tried Zerohour, but rather played Shockwave a couple of times ( since it is the closest thing to ZH) but was kinda put off with all the bloat-ness every faction had.

Several Ex-ZH players who later on tried ROTR, loved the mod, saying that it fixes alot of the issues ZH has. ( Not without having it's own ofcoure). I for one, liked this mod due to it being closer to Generals rather than ZH, something that am quiet used to.

But even with all those claims , a lot of ZH players ( Notebly Veterans) are not reluctant to try out ROTR, or other mods in that matter, or are extremely put off with ROTR's gameplay.

So here are my questions:

1/ What's so different about ZH and ROTR gameplay anyways, since I really didn't dive in to the game to actually get a good grasp on the differences ( Mostly due to not having enough time)?
2/ For Ex-ZH players/Veterans, why from your prespective would those differences put them off from trying it out?What makes them love ZH so much?
3/ For Ex-ZH + Beta Testers/Expirienced ROTR players, What's the Skill cap Difference between the 2 games? Is one harder than another? Is the skill level of an average ZH player better/worse than the skill level of an average ROTR player? ( yep try to figure that out XD )
4/ As of now, from what you guys see, would ROTR ever get a good competitive scene ?

Well , hopefully I elaborated my points well. This might've been Necro'd , I don't know, but still am quiet interested to read all yer answers

answers your questions

1. ROTR is much slower than zero hour. which makes it kinda boring for zero hour rush fans, thats the main thing that they don't like
2. rotr is so slow it becomes boring after a couple games of playing. not just that, there are no good players to play with. me for example i won all the games i played vs rotr people which made rotr extremely boring for me, and the ones that were called "the best rotr players" were constantly dodging me. and it is imbalanced like shit as i mentioned in a previous topic. and do not forget doomhammer stream which is the main rotr stream, i swear the games i saw on that stream were so bad, if i saw that stream before playing rise of the reds i would have never played it. not saying doomhammer is a bad streamer but the quality of players playing in it is so bad
3. zero hour is much harder because zero hour is not a game of strategy to be honest, its a game of micro. not just that zero hour pros are so hard to beat unlike rotr. a zero hour pro can beat any rotr pro after maximum 2 weeks of training on rotr whilst it will take rotr expert 1 year of practice to beat a zero hour expert
4. no never. no tournaments were ever held. no challenges were ever made. how do you think rotr is gonna ever be competitive when low-skilled players are filling the place while all the skilled players dodging each other. and do not forget doomhammer stream which is the main rotr stream, i swear the games i saw on that stream were so bad, if i saw that stream before playing rise of the reds i would have never played it

i think tournaments for money is the main key here to bring players. i made one for shockwave and it worked pretty well. still the people that i were told they were the best at it simply dodged *cough* (Bruce, wilson, angel ... etc)

This post has been edited by SqUak: 10 Apr 2015, 3:25

[ComradeCrimson]

answers your questions

1. ROTR is much slower than zero hour. which makes it kinda boring for zero hour rush fans, thats the main thing that they don't like
2. rotr is so slow it becomes boring after a couple games of playing. not just that, there are no good players to play with. me for example i won all the games i played vs rotr people which made rotr extremely boring for me, and the ones that were called "the best rotr players" were constantly dodging me. and it is imbalanced like shit as i mentioned in a previous topic. and do not forget doomhammer stream which is the main rotr stream, i swear the games i saw on that stream were so bad, if i saw that stream before playing rise of the reds i would have never played it. not saying doomhammer is a bad streamer but the quality of players playing in it is so bad
3. zero hour is much harder because zero hour is not a game of strategy to be honest, its a game of micro. not just that zero hour pros are so hard to beat unlike rotr. a zero hour pro can beat any rotr pro after maximum 2 weeks of training on rotr whilst it will take rotr expert 1 year of practice to beat a zero hour expert
4. no never. no tournaments were ever held. no challenges were ever made. how do you think rotr is gonna ever be competitive when low-skilled players are filling the place while all the skilled players dodging each other. and do not forget doomhammer stream which is the main rotr stream, i swear the games i saw on that stream were so bad, if i saw that stream before playing rise of the reds i would have never played it

i think tournaments for money is the main key here to bring players. i made one for shockwave and it worked pretty well. still the people that i were told they were the best at it simply dodged *cough* (Bruce, wilson, angel ... etc)

Before I touch your points; can you keep it respectful and stop being rude with folks? Because if you're gonna act like that, it might be fair mention to mention this.
Last I checked you got your face pummeled in by the very people you are accusing of "dodging" you so maybe you should act with a bit more respect? If not for them, for yourself? I've seen replays of Bruce for instance fighting you. While you did put up a good fight the fact is you've lost to them. Act with a bit more decency with folks and maybe they'll quit "dodging" you. People can choose who they want to play with, and if they don't feel happy with certain folks due to their attitude I can't say I blame them man.

And the experience of the majority of players, good and bad seem to indicate opposite to your points... its actually harder to grasp ROTR then it is ZH. If you're going to make those claims, can you reference what points of perspective/experience or accounts you are drawing this from?

As for tournaments and different streamers; this new version has only been out for a month, if that. Give it some time- other people like XAttus are making his own streaming channel, and there may or may not be tournaments springing up soon.

Irregardless its unfortunate if you find the mod boring. But the majority of people, regardless of their skill good or bad seem to differ from your opinion. Maybe you'd have more fun in Shockwave and it's environment then ROTR, as its more suited to your tastes and closer to the ZH you have grown to know. There is a community of people for instance who do play Shockwave on Gameranger and Hamachi.

I will agree that ROTR does indeed tend to be more slower then your average ZH game, as there is many ways to counter rushes and there is a lot more complexity given there is two whole new factions. But rushing is still very much a viable concept. Even with the supposed "turtle" faction, ECA. I've seen for instance Gepard rushes from Kireto or I myself have done rushes utilizing warhounds bombarding buildings and securing areas, dogs and infantry with dozers coming in to build towers to push an enemy back into a corner.

Part of the issue of the whole slowness of this game at the moment and the large amount of lower skilled players is that this version is relatively new: people are getting used to the new strategies, the balance changes and a whole whack of other stuff. And to my delight I've been also seeing some brand new strategies emerge with new units or new combos. I've seen mercenaries get used as nice harassment units or beefy assault forces. I've seen demotrucks used dumping bombs right in front of an oncoming force and then rushing in to blow something else up. I've even seen some neat strategies involving Javelin Team pushes and drone usage.

If anything, and mind im not meaning any of this shit to be malicious here, I'd say give it time. Try stuff out yourself, try new strategies. Experiment. If you find you absolutely don't enjoy it, no one is forcing you to play- as stated Shockwave might be better for you.

Money and other stuff might be an incentive for tournies. You could be onto something.

This post has been edited by ComradeCrimson: 10 Apr 2015, 8:14

[SqUak]

I've seen replays of Bruce for instance fighting you. While you did put up a good fight the fact is you've lost to them.

when the hell did that happen ?!
Lol. Bruce did it again !
Here is a fast screen shot for you
http://i59.tinypic.com/2ceoxzn.png
that chat was today. so clearly i have never played with bruce and i never will unless there is a streamer around. i will not fall in the same trap uber micro fell in
back to the topic. i dare you to name 1 active pro zero hour player that plays rotr ?

And the experience of the majority of players, good and bad seem to indicate opposite to your points... its actually harder to grasp ROTR then it is ZH. If you're going to make those claims, can you reference what points of perspective/experience or accounts you are drawing this from?

less than 40 games playing as squak

Irregardless its unfortunate if you find the mod boring. But the majority of people, regardless of their skill good or bad seem to differ from your opinion.

ummm. please name me 1 zero hour pro that liked this mod
anyway you might wanna check this link.
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index...howtopic=953296

edit : you might also wanna see this ss http://tinypic.com/r/140xmpz/8

This post has been edited by SqUak: 10 Apr 2015, 22:48

[ComradeCrimson]

when the hell did that happen ?!
Lol. Bruce did it again !
Here is a fast screen shot for you
http://i59.tinypic.com/2ceoxzn.png
that chat was today. so clearly i have never played with bruce and i never will unless there is a streamer around. i will not fall in the same trap uber micro fell in
back to the topic. i dare you to name 1 active pro zero hour player that plays rotr ?



less than 40 games playing as squak



ummm. please name me 1 zero hour pro that liked this mod
anyway you might wanna check this link.
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index...howtopic=953296

It was under an alias when you fought with Bruce and im not at liberty to talk about it, because some people want to actually have a game without getting tagged reputation wise- which is understandable in his case because the last "ZH Pro" he fought tried to smear him and caused a ruckus when he was beaten. Irregardless I've seen your gameplay and you should be more respectful. I'm not going to bandy a pointless argument with you beyond this, and I never mentioned Micro. At all. Fact is that whole incident was just plain goofy and to be quite frank, stupid.

For ZH pros who play ROTR? Hmm. Zhao, for one. And I dunno, most of the tester team like Knjaz and Bruce and others have been playing Generals for a number of years.


Take my advice or leave it. As I said im not stirring a pot with you- Shockwave seems to fit you better.

This post has been edited by ComradeCrimson: 10 Apr 2015, 22:45

[SqUak]

It was under an alias when you fought with Bruce and im not at liberty to talk about it, because some people want to actually have a game without getting tagged reputation wise- which is understandable in his case because the last "ZH Pro" he fought tried to smear him and caused a ruckus when he was beaten. Irregardless I've seen your gameplay and you should be more respectful. I'm not going to bandy a pointless argument with you beyond this, and I never mentioned Micro. At all. Fact is that whole incident was just plain goofy and to be quite frank, stupid.

For ZH pros who play ROTR? Hmm. Zhao, for one. And I dunno, most of the tester team like Knjaz and Bruce and others have been playing Generals for a number of years.


Take my advice or leave it. As I said im not stirring a pot with you- Shockwave seems to fit you better.

that zero hour pro ur talking about is uber micro i guess. well first hear his side of story then judge him. a quick ps : he is not a zero hour pro
when bruce said that i was not squak on skype i told him to play zh with me to make him sure. he said he quit zh competitive scene in 2007. well guess what, he was never in the competitive scene and all the players you have mentioned as well. i have been playing zero hour since it came and i have never heard they're names in any tournament or anything, and never scene a replay of them
you were under an alias when i fought bruce ? you are lying sir. i have never played with bruce

This post has been edited by SqUak: 10 Apr 2015, 22:59

[ComradeCrimson]

that zero hour pro ur talking about is uber micro i guess. well first hear his side of story then judge him. a quick ps : he is not a zero hour pro
when bruce said that i was not squak on skype i told him to play zh with me to make him sure. he said he quit zh competitive scene in 2007. well guess what, he was never in the competitive scene and all the players you have mentioned as well. i have been playing zero hour since it came and i have never heard they're names in any tournament or anything, and never scene a replay of them
you were under an alias when i fought bruce ? you are lying sir. i have never played with bruce

I'll leave Bruce to post the replay at his discretion or not. Irregardless of his decision its not unknown you have used exploits in the past and to be quite frank if you are going to continue to be poor in your sportsmanship I highly doubt you are going to get any solid games. You quit ROTR by what that screenshot is telling me and if thats the case, why are you bothering to speak about it when you apparently had it for less then a month? Even less then 2 weeks? And you didn't like it off the bat due to your old preferences being too strong?

I'm going to drop this subject. If you don't enjoy the game that's perfectly fine, but to be rude to others who play it or to belittle it due to your preferences? That's not cool.

[SqUak]

I'll leave Bruce to post the replay at his discretion or not. Irregardless of his decision its not unknown you have used exploits in the past and to be quite frank if you are going to continue to be poor in your sportsmanship I highly doubt you are going to get any solid games. You quit ROTR by what that screenshot is telling me and if thats the case, why are you bothering to speak about it when you apparently had it for less then a month? Even less then 2 weeks? And you didn't like it off the bat due to your old preferences being too strong?

I'm going to drop this subject. If you don't enjoy the game that's perfectly fine, but to be rude to others who play it or to belittle it due to your preferences? That's not cool.

i actually enjoyed the mod, i didn't care that it is slow i didn't care that it is imbalanced. i actually liked shockwave a lot though it is imbalanced like shit. the thing that killed rotr for me is that there are in total 0 good players to play with

why not make tournaments ? tournament for "rotr Legend" tag for example

[Knjaz.]

Could be your timezone problem, if you're complaining there're 0 good players to play with.
Bruce is there pretty often, so is XAttus, so I am (though I hate 1v1's, but I still do em), so are other folks. Don't remember seeing you in SWRNet lobby since the release, I think.